{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4807", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4807, "subject": "book of the new sun questions", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "2007-04-03T13:11:29+00:00", "last": "2007-04-06T13:27:10+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<8476d0320704030611g468b4339u39839c57bc526a3b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Bruce Hayles", "address": "brucehayles at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-03T13:11:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) book of the new sun questions", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Urth will only receive a new sun if its epitome is found worthy. Is it\nnecessary that the epitome of Urth is always an autarch (and a\nthousand man in a single body), or could Typhon (if he was willing)\nact as an epitome? Was the autarchy created by hierodules to produce a\nline of autarchs to be tried in Yesod, and also hold the Commonwealth\nstagnant while they were produced? (The last autarch has the\nconviction that humanity will return the stars as a divinity or not at\nall)\n\nThe coming of the New Sun results in the destruction of most of the\nUrth, but brings new resources and the New Sun, and a fresh start for\nhumanity. Is the idea behind this that the epitome (if judged worthy)\nis proof that human kind can produce something worthwhile, and so\nshould get a chance at reconstruction? Why will Urth, now with its new\nsun, progress any differently than it did with the old sun? Is it any\nmore likely that humanity will go to the stars as a divinity now, as\nopposed to going to the stars and conquering worlds (like it did\nbefore)? Since all culture and technology was lost, and humanity is\nstarting over again, I do not see how it is any more likely. Is it\njust another roll of the die then?\n\nIf the hierodules are behind the autarchy, why do they still do things\nlike support Baldanders expressly so he can grow fat with knowledge\nand die, dispersing his knowledge to others? How could Baldanders\ndeath possibly affect the line of autarchs? Additionally, since the\nlast autarch's conviction is that the Commonwealth stagnant while the\nline of autarch's march on and face trial at Yesod, why would any\neffort be wasted on spreading knowledge? The idea behind the\nhierodules sharing knowledge is that it somehow improves those they\nshare it with, or others indirectly. Ultimately, the hope is to\nproduce from humanity something close to divinity. If the hierodules\nare still working for that with the old sun, what does that mean?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370704031335m2c67996k23595aba953c37d7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-03T20:35:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) book of the new sun questions", "in_reply_to": "<8476d0320704030611g468b4339u39839c57bc526a3b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bruce,\n\nI think the first thing to consider is that the Hierodules may have\nmore than one reason for interacting with humans. Bringing the\nNew Sun is their goal; but who says that it's their *only* goal?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/3/07, Bruce Hayles wrote:\nUrth will only receive a new sun if its epitome is found worthy. Is it\nnecessary that the epitome of Urth is always an autarch (and a\nthousand man in a single body), or could Typhon (if he was willing)\nact as an epitome? Was the autarchy created by hierodules to produce a\nline of autarchs to be tried in Yesod, and also hold the Commonwealth\nstagnant while they were produced? (The last autarch has the\nconviction that humanity will return the stars as a divinity or not at\nall)\n\nThe coming of the New Sun results in the destruction of most of the\nUrth, but brings new resources and the New Sun, and a fresh start for\nhumanity. Is the idea behind this that the epitome (if judged worthy)\nis proof that human kind can produce something worthwhile, and so\nshould get a chance at reconstruction? Why will Urth, now with its new\nsun, progress any differently than it did with the old sun? Is it any\nmore likely that humanity will go to the stars as a divinity now, as\nopposed to going to the stars and conquering worlds (like it did\nbefore)? Since all culture and technology was lost, and humanity is\nstarting over again, I do not see how it is any more likely. Is it\njust another roll of the die then?\n\nIf the hierodules are behind the autarchy, why do they still do things\nlike support Baldanders expressly so he can grow fat with knowledge\nand die, dispersing his knowledge to others? How could Baldanders\ndeath possibly affect the line of autarchs? Additionally, since the\nlast autarch's conviction is that the Commonwealth stagnant while the\nline of autarch's march on and face trial at Yesod, why would any\neffort be wasted on spreading knowledge? The idea behind the\nhierodules sharing knowledge is that it somehow improves those they\nshare it with, or others indirectly. Ultimately, the hope is to\nproduce from humanity something close to divinity. If the hierodules\nare still working for that with the old sun, what does that mean?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8476d0320704031702m48579306o2a35cb01827280ec@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Bruce Hayles", "address": "brucehayles at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-04T00:02:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) book of the new sun questions", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370704031335m2c67996k23595aba953c37d7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought that the overarching goal was to create better intelligences\n(though what is better is not clear to me). Severian is asked if he\never thought there was something more than good and evil, and Apheta\ntalks about a war against entropy. The way I view this is, they will\nbring a sun to race if they believe that the potential of the race to\nbecome something better (a divinity, whatever) justifies the cost of\ncreating a new sun and taking it there. They also work across time to\nmake a race worthy of a new sun; it seems that even though they are\njudging whether or not a race is worth a new sun, that at the same\ntime they are always trying to make the race worthy of it, for\nexample, by helping Baldanders with the hope that he will die and his\nknowledge will spread, or by their interactions with Severian.\n\nAbout entropy: the thing I think they are getting at is creation of\nintelligence on a local scale (for example, by evolution), creates a\ngreat deal of information and uses little energy. By making greater\nintelligences, they are fighting a war against entropy by creating the\npotential for more information on a local scale. It isn't as simple as\n\"greater intelligences\" though, because Baldanders is certainly more\nintelligent than Severian but is inhuman, and his path is cast as not\ndesirable. It seems that there is a criteria beyond intelligence,\nalso, because the quest for power and conquering stars is cast as\nundesirable as well. The path that Typhon would follow is not\ndesirable. The only thing I can conclude from this is that the real\ngoal is some sort of balance between chaos and order. The total\ncontrol that a tyrant like Typhon brings to many worlds by conquering\nthem limits information content by resulting in homogeneity. Pure\nintelligence that seeks only to extend its own life (Baldanders) can\nbe viewed as limited at least in the sense that if there was a world\nfull of people like Baldanders, perhaps the stories that they generate\nby existing would be less interesting than the stories of normal\nhumans. Similarly, a world full of animals might be seen (the\nzoanthrops or something) as undesirable because the social\norganization of animals is limited, and so the stories we can tell\nabout them without anthropomorphizing are limited. What this view says\nfor humanity's ascension to divinity, I am not sure. I would guess\nthat humanity has the potential to be something like hierodules, going\nacross time and trying to create the potential for better stories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/3/07, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nBruce,\n\nI think the first thing to consider is that the Hierodules may have\nmore than one reason for interacting with humans. Bringing the\nNew Sun is their goal; but who says that it's their *only* goal?\n\nOn 4/3/07, Bruce Hayles wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Urth will only receive a new sun if its epitome is found worthy. Is it\nnecessary that the epitome of Urth is always an autarch (and a\nthousand man in a single body), or could Typhon (if he was willing)\nact as an epitome? Was the autarchy created by hierodules to produce a\nline of autarchs to be tried in Yesod, and also hold the Commonwealth\nstagnant while they were produced? (The last autarch has the\nconviction that humanity will return the stars as a divinity or not at\nall)\n\nThe coming of the New Sun results in the destruction of most of the\nUrth, but brings new resources and the New Sun, and a fresh start for\nhumanity. Is the idea behind this that the epitome (if judged worthy)\nis proof that human kind can produce something worthwhile, and so\nshould get a chance at reconstruction? Why will Urth, now with its new\nsun, progress any differently than it did with the old sun? Is it any\nmore likely that humanity will go to the stars as a divinity now, as\nopposed to going to the stars and conquering worlds (like it did\nbefore)? Since all culture and technology was lost, and humanity is\nstarting over again, I do not see how it is any more likely. Is it\njust another roll of the die then?\n\nIf the hierodules are behind the autarchy, why do they still do things\nlike support Baldanders expressly so he can grow fat with knowledge\nand die, dispersing his knowledge to others? How could Baldanders\ndeath possibly affect the line of autarchs? Additionally, since the\nlast autarch's conviction is that the Commonwealth stagnant while the\nline of autarch's march on and face trial at Yesod, why would any\neffort be wasted on spreading knowledge? The idea behind the\nhierodules sharing knowledge is that it somehow improves those they\nshare it with, or others indirectly. Ultimately, the hope is to\nproduce from humanity something close to divinity. If the hierodules\nare still working for that with the old sun, what does that mean?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-04T10:56:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) book of the new sun questions", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370704031335m2c67996k23595aba953c37d7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bruce,\n\nI think the first thing to consider is that the Hierodules may have\nmore than one reason for interacting with humans. Bringing the\nNew Sun is their goal; but who says that it's their *only* goal?\n\nWell said. As anyone who has worked in a bureaucracy knows, the goal, the \npurpose and the function may all be at odds with each other. Granting the \nhierodules better coordination than some bureaucracies, it leaves us with \nthe orientation that some things are not and will not be known. And I find \nWolfe's advance to that part of the compass marked \"unknown\", as well as his \nelegant prose and evident compassion, to be a major reason to keep returning \nto his work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the hierodules are behind the autarchy, why do they still do things\nlike support Baldanders expressly so he can grow fat with knowledge\nand die, dispersing his knowledge to others? How could Baldanders\ndeath possibly affect the line of autarchs? Additionally, since the\nlast autarch's conviction is that the Commonwealth stagnant while the\nline of autarch's march on and face trial at Yesod, why would any\neffort be wasted on spreading knowledge? The idea behind the\nhierodules sharing knowledge is that it somehow improves those they\nshare it with, or others indirectly. Ultimately, the hope is to\nproduce from humanity something close to divinity. If the hierodules\nare still working for that with the old sun, what does that mean?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm. Farmers will \"rotate\" crops planting great fields whose purpose is \nnot to be harvested but to stay in place and prepare the soil for the next \nharvest. May we reason by analogy from here as well? I wonder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." } ] }, { "message_id": "<40950.27839.qm@web81402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2007-04-06T13:27:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) book of the new sun questions", "in_reply_to": "<8476d0320704031702m48579306o2a35cb01827280ec@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What about Borski's theory that the \"New Sun\" is a trick to get the people of Urth to believe in this Myth and willingly give themselves and their planet up not for their own good, but for that of the aliens?\n\nBruce Hayles wrote: I thought that the overarching goal was to create better intelligences\n(though what is better is not clear to me). Severian is asked if he\never thought there was something more than good and evil, and Apheta\ntalks about a war against entropy. The way I view this is, they will\nbring a sun to race if they believe that the potential of the race to\nbecome something better (a divinity, whatever) justifies the cost of\ncreating a new sun and taking it there. They also work across time to\nmake a race worthy of a new sun; it seems that even though they are\njudging whether or not a race is worth a new sun, that at the same\ntime they are always trying to make the race worthy of it, for\nexample, by helping Baldanders with the hope that he will die and his\nknowledge will spread, or by their interactions with Severian.\n\nAbout entropy: the thing I think they are getting at is creation of\nintelligence on a local scale (for example, by evolution), creates a\ngreat deal of information and uses little energy. By making greater\nintelligences, they are fighting a war against entropy by creating the\npotential for more information on a local scale. It isn't as simple as\n\"greater intelligences\" though, because Baldanders is certainly more\nintelligent than Severian but is inhuman, and his path is cast as not\ndesirable. It seems that there is a criteria beyond intelligence,\nalso, because the quest for power and conquering stars is cast as\nundesirable as well. The path that Typhon would follow is not\ndesirable. The only thing I can conclude from this is that the real\ngoal is some sort of balance between chaos and order. The total\ncontrol that a tyrant like Typhon brings to many worlds by conquering\nthem limits information content by resulting in homogeneity. Pure\nintelligence that seeks only to extend its own life (Baldanders) can\nbe viewed as limited at least in the sense that if there was a world\nfull of people like Baldanders, perhaps the stories that they generate\nby existing would be less interesting than the stories of normal\nhumans. Similarly, a world full of animals might be seen (the\nzoanthrops or something) as undesirable because the social\norganization of animals is limited, and so the stories we can tell\nabout them without anthropomorphizing are limited. What this view says\nfor humanity's ascension to divinity, I am not sure. I would guess\nthat humanity has the potential to be something like hierodules, going\nacross time and trying to create the potential for better stories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/3/07, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nBruce,\n\nI think the first thing to consider is that the Hierodules may have\nmore than one reason for interacting with humans. Bringing the\nNew Sun is their goal; but who says that it's their *only* goal?\n\nOn 4/3/07, Bruce Hayles " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wrote:\nUrth will only receive a new sun if its epitome is found worthy. Is it\nnecessary that the epitome of Urth is always an autarch (and a\nthousand man in a single body), or could Typhon (if he was willing)\nact as an epitome? Was the autarchy created by hierodules to produce a\nline of autarchs to be tried in Yesod, and also hold the Commonwealth\nstagnant while they were produced? (The last autarch has the\nconviction that humanity will return the stars as a divinity or not at\nall)\n\nThe coming of the New Sun results in the destruction of most of the\nUrth, but brings new resources and the New Sun, and a fresh start for\nhumanity. Is the idea behind this that the epitome (if judged worthy)\nis proof that human kind can produce something worthwhile, and so\nshould get a chance at reconstruction? Why will Urth, now with its new\nsun, progress any differently than it did with the old sun? Is it any\nmore likely that humanity will go to the stars as a divinity now, as\nopposed to going to the stars and conquering worlds (like it did\nbefore)? Since all culture and technology was lost, and humanity is\nstarting over again, I do not see how it is any more likely. Is it\njust another roll of the die then?\n\nIf the hierodules are behind the autarchy, why do they still do things\nlike support Baldanders expressly so he can grow fat with knowledge\nand die, dispersing his knowledge to others? How could Baldanders\ndeath possibly affect the line of autarchs? Additionally, since the\nlast autarch's conviction is that the Commonwealth stagnant while the\nline of autarch's march on and face trial at Yesod, why would any\neffort be wasted on spreading knowledge? The idea behind the\nhierodules sharing knowledge is that it somehow improves those they\nshare it with, or others indirectly. Ultimately, the hope is to\nproduce from humanity something close to divinity. If the hierodules\nare still working for that with the old sun, what does that mean?\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful.\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] } ] }