{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4808", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4808, "subject": "Severian's sex Life", "messages": 31, "voices": 20, "first": "2007-04-07T06:04:26+00:00", "last": "2007-04-26T04:48:02+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<77a389ab0704062304x3d68c625hcc279ad8d29582bd@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Spencer Hensley", "address": "spencer.hensley at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-07T06:04:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sex Life", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, so I have a strange sort of question:\n\nWhy does Severian sleep with nearly every woman he encounters? I considered\nthat it might provide evidence for the subjectivity of the narrative, but it\nseems to me that there 1) might be other ways to do that and 2) that there\nmust be some further significance.\n\nDoes anyone have any ideas? I mean, it may not necessarily reflect the plot\nor universe Wolfe has created, but just have a sort of generic literary\nsignificance. It's something I've been wondering about for a long time, now.\n\nThanks!\n--Spencer Hensley" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14200.67.142.130.44.1175927970.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-07T06:39:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sex Life", "in_reply_to": "<77a389ab0704062304x3d68c625hcc279ad8d29582bd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The boy likes sex.\n\nHe's like 21 years old, for Christ's sake.\n\nThere's no deep symbolic literary meaning.\n\n\n\n.\n_" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, so I have a strange sort of question:\n\nWhy does Severian sleep with nearly every woman he encounters? I\nconsidered\nthat it might provide evidence for the subjectivity of the narrative, but\nit\nseems to me that there 1) might be other ways to do that and 2) that there\nmust be some further significance.\n\nDoes anyone have any ideas? I mean, it may not necessarily reflect the\nplot\nor universe Wolfe has created, but just have a sort of generic literary\nsignificance. It's something I've been wondering about for a long time,\nnow.\n\nThanks!\n--Spencer Hensley\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<77a389ab0704062344g5596e7a0h10a4dc164ad744ec@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Spencer Hensley", "address": "spencer.hensley at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-07T06:44:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sex Life", "in_reply_to": "<14200.67.142.130.44.1175927970.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's unlikley that each woman he meets would be so attracted to him, though.\n\nI'm not suprised that a 21 year old male would want to have sex, only that\nhe\ndoes with such success. Besides which, Wolfe dosen't include anything\narbitrarily, and this is promenant enough to merit inspection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/6/07, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nThe boy likes sex.\n\nHe's like 21 years old, for Christ's sake.\n\nThere's no deep symbolic literary meaning.\n\n\n\n.\n_" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Okay, so I have a strange sort of question:\n\nWhy does Severian sleep with nearly every woman he encounters? I\nconsidered\nthat it might provide evidence for the subjectivity of the narrative,\nbut\nit\nseems to me that there 1) might be other ways to do that and 2) that\nthere\nmust be some further significance.\n\nDoes anyone have any ideas? I mean, it may not necessarily reflect the\nplot\nor universe Wolfe has created, but just have a sort of generic literary\nsignificance. It's something I've been wondering about for a long time,\nnow.\n\nThanks!\n--Spencer Hensley\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7459.67.142.130.44.1175929294.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-07T07:01:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sex Life", "in_reply_to": "<77a389ab0704062344g5596e7a0h10a4dc164ad744ec@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's unlikley that each woman he meets would be so attracted to him,\nthough." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's physically imposing and scary looking, what with being dressed like a\ntorturer (not to mention being truly scary, if you get to know him even a\nlittle bit). Also cute enough. Apparently a winning combination.\n\nAnd, to be frank, he doesn't really seem to give too much of a fuck about\nconsensuality, if you think about it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not suprised that a 21 year old male would want to have sex, only that\nhe does with such success." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An if you get him mad at you, and he hurts you, what are you going to do\nabout it? He's a civil servant who kills people for a living. You think\ncomplaining to the magistrate is going to have some effect on his\nbehavior?\n\nThink about it. Remember who is telling the story and might be motivated\nto portray himself in the kindest possible light.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<46174398.2010608@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-04-07T07:09:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sex Life", "in_reply_to": "<77a389ab0704062304x3d68c625hcc279ad8d29582bd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Spencer Hensley wrote:\nOkay, so I have a strange sort of question:\n\nWhy does Severian sleep with nearly every woman he encounters? I \nconsidered that it might provide evidence for the subjectivity of the \nnarrative, but it seems to me that there 1) might be other ways to do \nthat and 2) that there must be some further significance.\n\nDoes anyone have any ideas? I mean, it may not necessarily reflect the \nplot or universe Wolfe has created, but just have a sort of generic \nliterary significance. It's something I've been wondering about for a \nlong time, now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rather, why does Severian choose, among the thousands of people he must \nhave met in the course of the events described in the five volumes, only \nto record the hundred or so appearing in the Book? Are these the ones \nwho make the greatest impression on him? Might the first few sex \npartners of his experience stand out among the rest?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-07T12:54:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sex Life", "in_reply_to": "<77a389ab0704062304x3d68c625hcc279ad8d29582bd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you should consider Latro and Able for an answer to this \nquestion.\n\nSeverian's promiscuity has a lot to do with his brand of anti-hero. \nHe's a guy who is generally nasty and bad to the core, does bad \nthings reflexively, and yet he is a prophesied vessel of redemption \nfor the human race.\n\nLatro in the first two books lacks the kind of continuity he'd need \nto have a monogamous relationship, he keeps forgetting who it is that \nhe is in love with and sex just happens for him. He knows he is not \nsupposed to sleep with IO though.\n\nAble is a mean guy on the outside but a tender-hearted kid on the \ninside. (\"I know exactly what you mean!\") His core direction comes \nfrom his virtuous love for this one female.\n\nI think Wolfe has a complex idea of what the significance of his \ncharacter's sexual relations is, and I think it is kind of seperated \nfrom other facets which can be thought of as good or bad." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 7, 2007, at 2:04 AM, Spencer Hensley wrote:\nOkay, so I have a strange sort of question:\n\nWhy does Severian sleep with nearly every woman he encounters? I \nconsidered that it might provide evidence for the subjectivity of \nthe narrative, but it seems to me that there 1) might be other ways \nto do that and 2) that there must be some further significance.\n\nDoes anyone have any ideas? I mean, it may not necessarily reflect \nthe plot or universe Wolfe has created, but just have a sort of \ngeneric literary significance. It's something I've been wondering \nabout for a long time, now.\n\nThanks!\n\n--Spencer Hensley\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<962479.4207.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2007-04-07T13:42:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sex Life", "in_reply_to": "<7459.67.142.130.44.1175929294.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Anyone buy Borskis theory that Severian is just a ruse to get the people of Urth to do the Aliens biddings and not mankinds?\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote: > It's unlikley that each woman he meets would be so attracted to him," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's physically imposing and scary looking, what with being dressed like a\ntorturer (not to mention being truly scary, if you get to know him even a\nlittle bit). Also cute enough. Apparently a winning combination.\n\nAnd, to be frank, he doesn't really seem to give too much of a fuck about\nconsensuality, if you think about it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not suprised that a 21 year old male would want to have sex, only that\nhe does with such success." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An if you get him mad at you, and he hurts you, what are you going to do\nabout it? He's a civil servant who kills people for a living. You think\ncomplaining to the magistrate is going to have some effect on his\nbehavior?\n\nThink about it. Remember who is telling the story and might be motivated\nto portray himself in the kindest possible light.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3064.67.142.130.33.1175955076.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-07T14:11:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borskis (sp?) Theory", "in_reply_to": "<962479.4207.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyone buy Borskis theory that Severian is just a ruse to get the people\nof Urth to do the Aliens biddings and not mankinds?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Someone might.\n\nNot I.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20070407144922.CPIG21439.eastrmmtao102.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2007-04-07T14:49:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sex Life", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 07:54 AM 4/7/2007, you wrote:\nI think you should consider Latro and Able for an answer to this\nquestion.\n\nSeverian's promiscuity has a lot to do with his brand of anti-hero.\nHe's a guy who is generally nasty and bad to the core, does bad\nthings reflexively, and yet he is a prophesied vessel of redemption\nfor the human race." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Gene's answer to me about Severian in general was that Sev \nhas a horrible background and is only gradually overcoming it. His \ncalling, of course, is far better than his person, as you say above. \nAdditionally, Wolfe knows enough about other cultures to know that \nthe idea of male chastity is pretty much limited to Jewish and \nChristian societies, and really mostly to Protestant or \nProtestant-influenced Christian societies. Severian is not living in \nsuch a society.\n\nNutria " } ] }, { "message_id": "<906065.44623.qm@web56313.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Macronaut", "address": "macronaut at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-07T20:39:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sex Life", "in_reply_to": "<20070407144922.CPIG21439.eastrmmtao102.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Severian's many loves are not an aside but are instead a very purposeful and central part of the books. Each of these women helps Severian to discover an important part of himself, or represents some crucial decision or period in his life: Thecla engages his intellect and is the (perverse) beginning of his start down the road toward mercy; Dorcas teaches him to protect the innocent and care for others; Agia challenges his budding committment to mercy, and is the foil for his evolution from a callous person who in the past would have casually dispatched a dangerous enemy to one who spares life and protects it where he can. Et cetera.\n\nmacronaut\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-08T02:32:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borskis (sp?) Theory", "in_reply_to": "<3064.67.142.130.33.1175955076.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anyone buy Borskis theory that Severian is just a ruse to get the people\nof Urth to do the Aliens biddings and not mankinds?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Someone might.\n\nNot I.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is that really Borski's theory? I don't recall him mentioning that in Solar \nLabyrinth, although Wright did put forward that sort of theory (in Attending \nDaedelus).\n\nEither way, no. I think it is implausible, on the one hand, and on the other \nI think it turns the BotNS into a sort of un-Wolfean story.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nInterest Rates Fall Again! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new \npayment \nhttp://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp?sourceid=lmb-9632-18679&moid=7581" } ] }, { "message_id": "<840499.95171.qm@web54403.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nathan Spears", "address": "spearofsolomon at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-08T07:14:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sex Life", "in_reply_to": "<906065.44623.qm@web56313.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm glad someone asked this question. I've enjoyed reading all the responses because I've often tried to understand why Wolfe has Severian act this way.\n\nThe way Severian treats the women around him made me alternately despise and admire him, which I now believe was Wolfe's intention. As someone mentioned, Severian is a very young man, and more to the point, he's human and succumbs to temptation - in contrast to Christ. Many of Severian's characteristics come into focus for me when I think about the fact that he was fully human (in fact the epitome of humanity) and THEN divine, rather than the other way around like Christ. He even has sex with an angel or whoever right before he's about to go to trial for humanity, so it wasn't on his mind to be faithful to his wife even then.\n\nI also have to remember that Wolfe is having Severian tells us about each woman that he has sex with - Severian has some reason for portraying himself like an ass. Why does he tell us about each time he betrays someone? For that matter, why did he tell us he had sex with his own grandmother? I think it's in part because he wants us to know that he came to love each woman to some degree. He knows that he was wrong, and he knows that if it comes up again he will give in again. So he's confessing to us a little and looking for some forgiveness by telling us that he came to care for each of the women. Not that that would buy him a lot at a feminist rally, but apparently it's good enough for the Heirodules . . .\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Macronaut \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Saturday, April 7, 2007 3:39:56 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Severian's sex Life\n\n\nI think Severian's many loves are not an aside but are instead a very purposeful and central part of the books. Each of these women helps Severian to discover an important part of himself, or represents some crucial decision or period in his life: Thecla engages his intellect and is the (perverse) beginning of his start down the road toward mercy; Dorcas teaches him to protect the innocent and care for others; Agia challenges his budding committment to mercy, and is the foil for his evolution from a callous person who in the past would have casually dispatched a dangerous enemy to one who spares life and protects it where he can. Et cetera.\n\nmacronaut\n \n\n\nNever miss an email again!\nYahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out._______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<799001.19363.qm@web31912.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Sarah Dorrance-Minch", "address": "isobelwren at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-09T02:55:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sex Life", "in_reply_to": "<20070407144922.CPIG21439.eastrmmtao102.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"James B. Jordan\" wrote: Gene's answer to me about Severian in general was that Sev has a horrible background and is only gradually overcoming it. Hmm. I'm not sure what this says about me, but I've never seen Severian as being a particular bad-ass. I see him as a person who was trained to do a particularly nasty job and who in his professional persona performs to the utmost of his ability. That doesn't make him nasty, it makes him a person who was trained to do a dirty job and who for a large portion of his life saw that job as being a necessary one. There's evidence from the very first book that he isn't perhaps the best candidate for his job. He violates the laws of his own order to give Thecla a swift death, then turns himself in because he wants to do the honourable thing. He suffers an attack of queasy stomach after his first execution. He does his best to protect Dorcas (oh, heck, I'm pretty sure that's her name, bear\n with me, I'm still recovering from a one-hour labour and delivery and my brain is Swiss cheese. I know I'm skipping ahead, too; I've only read the first, third, and fourth books.) When leaving his post in the prison, when he goes into the uplands, he briefly acquires a young ward/sidekick/son type figure and grieves when the boy is killed and he unable to stop the incident. When he returns to the Citadel and meets with his old mentor, he and his mentor agree that the torturer's guild needs to be dissolved because using twisted men to torture is overly cruel to the victims and using good men to carry out the torture is also cruel to the torturers themselves. In short, I really don't see that Severian is a monster, merely that he had a monstrous job. Maybe my being an aspie makes it easier for me to compartmentalize. At any rate, I see a lot of compartmentalizing in Severian's life, too. In his case, I see it as his necessary mental defense against the more ugly parts of\n his past. I did not see much evidence of his being unconcerned with consent in the books that I did read. If anything, he struck me as having something of Lord Byron's problem - if one can call it a problem - of having women throw themselves at him. He doesn't seem to be the one initiating contact. If he is tall, bony, wan, and scary-looking, I find the attraction odd (well, all but the bony part, I find the human skeleton interesting in a sort of way and bony people look kind of elegant to me, but that's just me) but I have heard that many women seem to go for, hmm, shall we say, the sort of boy one doesn't take home to Mother. Or, more simply, that man chicks dig jerks. (Also that there are men out there who have the same attraction for \"dangerous\" types. Or just flat-out bitches.) Certainly the nice-person-encountering-dangerous-type seems to be a mainstay of romance novels. That is probably a large part of why Severian seems to get lucky so often. And, as has been\n pointed out, he is only twenty one, practically an adolescent. If he is for whatever reason in no need of worry about contracting STD's (or, alas, merely guilty of being adolescent and convinced he is immune), why on earth wouldn't he have sex whenever the opportunity presents itself? \n\n\nSarah Dorrance-Minch\n(in SCA, THL Isobel Wren, called \"Midori\")\n\nMother to Sophie (10/28/02), Liesl (5/17/04) and Kassandra (4/1/07) and\nmilitant lactivist dairy queen. I should wear a cowbell. \n\nIn a dark time, the eye begins to see" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8837.67.142.130.36.1176088800.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-09T03:20:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sex Life", "in_reply_to": "<799001.19363.qm@web31912.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I did not see much evidence of his being unconcerned with\nconsent in the books that I did read." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Screwing a chick in a boat while she is asleep strikes me as being just a\nlittle bit unconcerned with consent.\n\nRemember, Severian is telling his own story. A useful exercise is to go\nback to each specific incident and look at it from the point of view of\nthe other person(s) present.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20070409032446.11271.qmail@web63909.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Recursive Loop", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-09T03:24:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Joy of Subject Lines (was Re: Severian's sex Life)", "in_reply_to": "<8837.67.142.130.36.1176088800.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Greetings:\n\nSo there I was showing my father-in-law how to use Yahoo mail, make folders, open them, etc., and\nsort his mail, etc., when I opened my \"Fiction\" folder on my account. Ummm...maybe I shouldn't\ngiven the number of e-mails with the subject line \"Severian's sex Life\".\n\nSpam, it's spam I tell you! Kind of like those Viagra pill mails you get!\n\n;)\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<134397.97696.qm@web51710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "nastler", "address": "nastler at yahoo.dk" }, "date": "2007-04-09T08:36:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Borskis (sp?) Theory Wright?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've always liked this theory, and think it stands at\nleast as well as some of the others proposed and\ndiscussed on the board.\n\nThe response below is very typical. Many of the more\ninvested fans of GW simply don't *like* this line of\ninterpretation. A tale from GW where religion is the\nwool that has been pulled over the eyes of humanity is\nnot to be contenanced, apparently. :-)\n\n--- Chris skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Anyone buy Borskis theory that Severian is just\na ruse to get the people\nof Urth to do the Aliens biddings and not\nmankinds?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is that really Borski's theory? I don't recall him\nmentioning that in Solar \nLabyrinth, although Wright did put forward that sort\nof theory (in Attending \nDaedelus).\n\nEither way, no. I think it is implausible, on the\none hand, and on the other \nI think it turns the BotNS into a sort of un-Wolfean\nstory.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-09T10:59:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Borskis (sp?) Theory Wright?", "in_reply_to": "<134397.97696.qm@web51710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hardly. Witness the Long Sun series; Wolfe is not averse to portraying false \nreligions, and we all know it.\n\nOne primary problem as far as I am concerned is that the theory assumes that \nwe in general, and Severian in particular, are fully manipulable with no \nfree will. This ends up being especially problematic if you combine the \ndeterminism with an evil force behind the steering wheel. Even in the Long \nSun books, Pas is not able to do this.\n\nAlso, it simply isn't a particularly *interesting* story this way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've always liked this theory, and think it stands at\nleast as well as some of the others proposed and\ndiscussed on the board.\n\nThe response below is very typical. Many of the more\ninvested fans of GW simply don't *like* this line of\ninterpretation. A tale from GW where religion is the\nwool that has been pulled over the eyes of humanity is\nnot to be contenanced, apparently. :-)\n\n--- Chris skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Anyone buy Borskis theory that Severian is just\na ruse to get the people\nof Urth to do the Aliens biddings and not\nmankinds?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is that really Borski's theory? I don't recall him\nmentioning that in Solar\nLabyrinth, although Wright did put forward that sort\nof theory (in Attending\nDaedelus).\n\nEither way, no. I think it is implausible, on the\none hand, and on the other\nI think it turns the BotNS into a sort of un-Wolfean\nstory.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8476d0320704090424t6df81276i44fc0b92afe0c118@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Bruce Hayles", "address": "brucehayles at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-09T11:24:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Borskis (sp?) Theory Wright?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could someone sketch out some of the standing explanations?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/8/07, Chris wrote:\nHardly. Witness the Long Sun series; Wolfe is not averse to portraying false\nreligions, and we all know it.\n\nOne primary problem as far as I am concerned is that the theory assumes that\nwe in general, and Severian in particular, are fully manipulable with no\nfree will. This ends up being especially problematic if you combine the\ndeterminism with an evil force behind the steering wheel. Even in the Long\nSun books, Pas is not able to do this.\n\nAlso, it simply isn't a particularly *interesting* story this way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've always liked this theory, and think it stands at\nleast as well as some of the others proposed and\ndiscussed on the board.\n\nThe response below is very typical. Many of the more\ninvested fans of GW simply don't *like* this line of\ninterpretation. A tale from GW where religion is the\nwool that has been pulled over the eyes of humanity is\nnot to be contenanced, apparently. :-)\n\n--- Chris skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Anyone buy Borskis theory that Severian is just\na ruse to get the people\nof Urth to do the Aliens biddings and not\nmankinds?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Is that really Borski's theory? I don't recall him\nmentioning that in Solar\nLabyrinth, although Wright did put forward that sort\nof theory (in Attending\nDaedelus).\n\nEither way, no. I think it is implausible, on the\none hand, and on the other\nI think it turns the BotNS into a sort of un-Wolfean\nstory.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Batrinque at aol.com", "address": "batrinque at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-04-09T11:52:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Joy of Subject Lines (was Re: Severian's sex Life)", "in_reply_to": "<20070409032446.11271.qmail@web63909.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 4/8/2007 11:24:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, \nrecursive_loop at yahoo.com writes:\n\nGreetings:\n\nSo there I was showing my father-in-law how to use Yahoo mail, make folders, \nopen them, etc., and\nsort his mail, etc., when I opened my \"Fiction\" folder on my account. \nUmmm...maybe I shouldn't\ngiven the number of e-mails with the subject line \"Severian's sex Life\".\n\nSpam, it's spam I tell you! Kind of like those Viagra pill mails you get!\n\n\nGreetings. My name is Severian and I am former Autarch of Urth. I have \nfifty million dollars on deposit in the National Bank of Nigeria and I need a \nperson of good name and character to ... \n\nBruce Trinque\nAmston, CT" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10704091529.AA15213@slack.com>", "from": { "name": "David DiGiacomo", "address": "david at slack.com" }, "date": "2007-04-09T15:29:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Borskis (sp?) Theory Wright?", "in_reply_to": "<8476d0320704090424t6df81276i44fc0b92afe0c118@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The response below is very typical. Many of the more\ninvested fans of GW simply don't *like* this line of\ninterpretation. A tale from GW where religion is the\nwool that has been pulled over the eyes of humanity is\nnot to be contenanced, apparently. :-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is rather rude of you to accuse other fans of being closed minded, even\nwith a smiley.\n\nPersonally, I would be very comfortable with such an interpretation, but I\ncan't reconcile it with Wolfe's other work, and what I know of his life\nand beliefs.\n\nConsider Wolfe's own quote: \"Almost any interesting work of art comes\nclose to saying the opposite of what it really says.\"\n\nP.S. \"Top posting makes the Theanthropos weep\" (as does HTML mail, Apple\nMail, etc.)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<842835.71048.qm@web51710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "nastler", "address": "nastler at yahoo.dk" }, "date": "2007-04-09T19:59:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Borskis (sp?) Theory Wright?", "in_reply_to": "<10704091529.AA15213@slack.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No David, saying some fans prefer to discuss certain\ninterps rather than others is not rude.\n\nThe smiley, thank you Chris, is to indicate that\nexactly this situation is the case in Long Sun. But as\nChris goes on to remind us, Pas couldn't quite pull it\noff. Well Pas is no angel, eh?\n\nThe Wolfe quote is very relevant of course...\n\nTop posting? Pah! Feel free to frown!\nNow that was rude :-)\n\n--- David DiGiacomo skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The response below is very typical. Many of the\nmore\ninvested fans of GW simply don't *like* this line\nof\ninterpretation. A tale from GW where religion is\nthe\nwool that has been pulled over the eyes of humanity\nis\nnot to be contenanced, apparently. :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is rather rude of you to accuse other fans of\nbeing closed minded, even\nwith a smiley.\n\nPersonally, I would be very comfortable with such an\ninterpretation, but I\ncan't reconcile it with Wolfe's other work, and what\nI know of his life\nand beliefs.\n\nConsider Wolfe's own quote: \"Almost any interesting\nwork of art comes\nclose to saying the opposite of what it really\nsays.\"\n\nP.S. \"Top posting makes the Theanthropos weep\" (as\ndoes HTML mail, Apple\nMail, etc.).\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370704091328g65192e7dk71ed739b1951fc04@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-09T20:28:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Joy of Subject Lines (was Re: Severian's sex Life)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/9/07, Batrinque at aol.com wrote:\nGreetings. My name is Severian and I am former Autarch of Urth. I have\nfifty million dollars on deposit in the National Bank of Nigeria and I need\na person of good name and character to ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just spewed Diet 7-Up out my nose, damn you!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." } ] }, { "message_id": "<335966.54353.qm@web31912.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Sarah Dorrance-Minch", "address": "isobelwren at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-10T01:11:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sex Life", "in_reply_to": "<8837.67.142.130.36.1176088800.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote: > I did not see much evidence of his being unconcerned with" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "consent in the books that I did read." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Screwing a chick in a boat while she is asleep strikes me as being just a\nlittle bit unconcerned with consent.\n\n \n Was that in the second book? The one my Barnes and Noble used book order canceled? Just my luck. Yeah, I'd have to agree with you on that point. At least he's brutally honest about his past. I wouldn't call that sugar-coating. \n \n \n\n\nSarah Dorrance-Minch\n(in SCA, THL Isobel Wren, called \"Midori\")\n\nMother to Sophie (10/28/02), Liesl (5/17/04) and Kassandra (4/1/07) and\nmilitant lactivist dairy queen. I should wear a cowbell. \n\nIn a dark time, the eye begins to see" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14f560d30704091854m3d5db72m8bfeb7af145af661@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Mark Lewin", "address": "mark.lewin at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-10T01:54:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sex Life", "in_reply_to": "<335966.54353.qm@web31912.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that we're ever asked/encouraged/persuaded to think that\nSeverian is anything other than than flawed/wrong/sinful. To me, that's\npart of his appeal.\n\nI have never forced myself on a woman. But I share - or at least shared -\nlots of Sev's faults as a young man. Pride, boastfulness, arrogance. I'm\nlucky enough to be married to a woman who is equally up-front about her own\nshortcomings, too.\n\nThere's *something* about Sev's story that makes me think that, despite his\nmoral errors, he's just one of us. Every Man. And his faults and foibles\nmake his account all the more compelling.\n\nI believe you can read too much into a story. GW portrayed a flawed,\nperhaps misogynistic man. Does that mean anything outside of the story? I\ndon't believe so. Any more so than when an actor - a nice guy at heart -\nportrays the wife-beating-child-abusing-vagrant-slapping character that the\nproducer/director/screenwriter had in mind.\n\nAt least actors have the luxury of representing just one character at a\ntime. Authors don't have that luxury. They're accountable for all of their\ncharacters. And if they were all nice .... well, it wouldn't be much of a\nstory, would it?\n\nM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/04/07, Sarah Dorrance-Minch wrote:\n\n\n\n*brunians at brunians.org* wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I did not see much evidence of his being unconcerned with\nconsent in the books that I did read." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Screwing a chick in a boat while she is asleep strikes me as being just a\nlittle bit unconcerned with consent.\n\nWas that in the second book? The one my Barnes and Noble used book order\ncanceled? Just my luck. Yeah, I'd have to agree with you on that point. At\nleast he's brutally honest about his past. I wouldn't call that\nsugar-coating.\n\n\n\n\n\nSarah Dorrance-Minch\n(in SCA, THL Isobel Wren, called \"Midori\")\n\nMother to Sophie (10/28/02), Liesl (5/17/04) and Kassandra (4/1/07) and\nmilitant lactivist dairy queen. I should wear a cowbell.\n\nIn a dark time, the eye begins to see\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-10T17:15:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sex Life", "in_reply_to": "<20070407144922.CPIG21439.eastrmmtao102.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/7/07, James B. Jordan wrote:\nAdditionally, Wolfe\nknows enough about other cultures to know that the idea of male chastity is\npretty much limited to Jewish and Christian societies, and really mostly to\nProtestant or Protestant-influenced Christian societies. Severian is not\nliving in such a society." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bingo. One of Wolfe's ongoing projects is to try to impress upon his\nreaders how different other cultures are from ours.\n\nFor most of human history in most cultures, Severian's behavior would\nnot be remarkable. See also, treatment of women, slavery, etc.\nFantasy and science fiction set in the past (or cultures that are\nsupposed to resemble Earth's past) are constantly giving their\nprotagonists anachronistic values.\n\nYour reaction to Severian (or Latro) says more about how much our\nculture has changed than it does about those particular characters." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-12T16:44:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Borskis (sp?) Theory Wright?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/9/07, Chris wrote:\nAlso, it simply isn't a particularly *interesting* story this way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. And that's the only criteria I recognize.\n\nI'm fine with people coming up with interpretations that might be at\nodds with Wolfe's actual intent. But they've got to make the story\nmore interesting, not less.\n\nRostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "<392816.40198.qm@web38501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Joe Riley", "address": "whamdoodler at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-25T20:35:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sex Life", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's also important to remember that Severian didn't necessarily have sex with all of these women, he only said that he had sex with them. Remember, this is a 21-year old male, and all young males have lied about our sex lives at some point in our lives.\n \n Particularly note the way in which he describes the activities. Severian goes into extraordinary detail when he describes anything which happened to him, and this holds particularly true for his sexual encounters (i.e. with the young prostitute pretending to be Thecla, his first time with Dorcas, and even during the aforementioned boat incident). \n \n However with the Chatelaine Thecla, he only briefly mentions that they slept together, and in an offhand manner. This is not at all how you would expect Severian to describe an event as monumental as his first sexual encounter with his first love. If anything, it sounds more like a fisherman exaggerating their catch, or a golfer skewing their score (or one of your buddies telling your other buddy that he slept with a girl that he met at the bar, when you know for a fact that he went home alone). Just one more consideration to wrestle with.\n \n \n \n\nMichael Straight wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On 4/7/07, James B. Jordan wrote:\nAdditionally, Wolfe\nknows enough about other cultures to know that the idea of male chastity is\npretty much limited to Jewish and Christian societies, and really mostly to\nProtestant or Protestant-influenced Christian societies. Severian is not\nliving in such a society." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bingo. One of Wolfe's ongoing projects is to try to impress upon his\nreaders how different other cultures are from ours.\n\nFor most of human history in most cultures, Severian's behavior would\nnot be remarkable. See also, treatment of women, slavery, etc.\nFantasy and science fiction set in the past (or cultures that are\nsupposed to resemble Earth's past) are constantly giving their\nprotagonists anachronistic values.\n\nYour reaction to Severian (or Latro) says more about how much our\nculture has changed than it does about those particular characters." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3365.67.142.130.29.1177533821.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-25T20:43:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sex Life", "in_reply_to": "<392816.40198.qm@web38501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "According to Wolfe, Severian doesn't actually lie.\n\n\n.\n_" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it's also important to remember that Severian didn't necessarily\nhave sex with all of these women, he only said that he had sex with them.\nRemember, this is a 21-year old male, and all young males have lied about\nour sex lives at some point in our lives.\n\n Particularly note the way in which he describes the activities.\nSeverian goes into extraordinary detail when he describes anything which\nhappened to him, and this holds particularly true for his sexual\nencounters (i.e. with the young prostitute pretending to be Thecla, his\nfirst time with Dorcas, and even during the aforementioned boat\nincident).\n\n However with the Chatelaine Thecla, he only briefly mentions that they\nslept together, and in an offhand manner. This is not at all how you\nwould expect Severian to describe an event as monumental as his first\nsexual encounter with his first love. If anything, it sounds more like\na fisherman exaggerating their catch, or a golfer skewing their score\n(or one of your buddies telling your other buddy that he slept with a\ngirl that he met at the bar, when you know for a fact that he went home\nalone). Just one more consideration to wrestle with.\n\n\n\n\nMichael Straight wrote:\n On 4/7/07, James B. Jordan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Additionally, Wolfe\nknows enough about other cultures to know that the idea of male chastity\nis\npretty much limited to Jewish and Christian societies, and really mostly\nto\nProtestant or Protestant-influenced Christian societies. Severian is not\nliving in such a society." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bingo. One of Wolfe's ongoing projects is to try to impress upon his\nreaders how different other cultures are from ours.\n\nFor most of human history in most cultures, Severian's behavior would\nnot be remarkable. See also, treatment of women, slavery, etc.\nFantasy and science fiction set in the past (or cultures that are\nsupposed to resemble Earth's past) are constantly giving their\nprotagonists anachronistic values.\n\nYour reaction to Severian (or Latro) says more about how much our\nculture has changed than it does about those particular characters.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370704251547q3aef5159p1f9d537ee64648f8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-25T22:47:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sex Life", "in_reply_to": "<3365.67.142.130.29.1177533821.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/25/07, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nAccording to Wolfe, Severian doesn't actually lie." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Meaning only that he never says something that directly contradicts the\ntruth, as he sees it, at the moment he says it.\n\nI'm inclined to believe that *most* of Severian's tales of his sexploits are\n\"fact-based.\" However, that he mentions intimacy with Thecla *only*\nafter he begins carrying her around in his head strikes me as more than\na bit suspicious; I do not know exactly what's going on here, but it\nseems significant. Perhaps both of them had intense fantasies about\neach other and, as her memories integrated into his, they began to take\non a feeling of having actually happened? Or..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." } ] }, { "message_id": "<462FEF81.8090007@goosemoon.org>", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2007-04-26T00:17:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sex Life", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370704251547q3aef5159p1f9d537ee64648f8@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These are reasonable suggestions. It's certainly a surprising revelation \nto the reader. But the account is supposed to be coming from a Severian \nwho has experienced all these things and now reflects back on them, so \nit's not as though the narrator actually goes through these changes. \nAlthough perhaps in a sense he is, given the vivid way Severian \nexperiences memory?\n\nThe moment of introduction does force us as readers to suddenly \nreconsider what we've been told. Perhaps it's a narrative device urging \nus toward that sort of critical reading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn 4/25/07, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "According to Wolfe, Severian doesn't actually lie.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Meaning only that he never says something that directly contradicts the\ntruth, as he sees it, at the moment he says it.\n\nI'm inclined to believe that *most* of Severian's tales of his sexploits are\n\"fact-based.\" However, that he mentions intimacy with Thecla *only*\nafter he begins carrying her around in his head strikes me as more than\na bit suspicious; I do not know exactly what's going on here, but it\nseems significant. Perhaps both of them had intense fantasies about\neach other and, as her memories integrated into his, they began to take\non a feeling of having actually happened? Or...\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<46302F02.3000907@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-04-26T04:48:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sex Life", "in_reply_to": "<392816.40198.qm@web38501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Joe Riley wrote:\nI think it's also important to remember that Severian didn't necessarily \nhave sex with all of these women, he only /said/ that he had sex with \nthem. Remember, this is a 21-year old male, and all young males have \nlied about our sex lives at some point in our lives.\n \nParticularly note the way in which he describes the activities. \nSeverian goes into extraordinary detail when he describes anything which \nhappened to him, and this holds particularly true for his sexual \nencounters (i.e. with the young prostitute pretending to be Thecla, his \nfirst time with Dorcas, and even during the aforementioned boat incident). \n \nHowever with the Chatelaine Thecla, he only briefly mentions that they \nslept together, and in an offhand manner." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It may be that he only had \"sexual play\" with Thecla, as he says Dorcas \nand Jolenta did. Thecla would not be likely to risk pregnancy by a \ncommoner as long as she had some hope of release, and as long as \nSeverian had regular access to other sources of intercourse, he might be \nunlikely to press the issue." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }