{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4813", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4813, "subject": "Don't Sell 'Em Short", "messages": 26, "voices": 14, "first": "2007-04-12T15:09:40+00:00", "last": "2007-04-13T22:25:39+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<19ee41770704120809l478714a9g410d4f1d2728808@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jack Redelfs", "address": "jackredelfs at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-12T15:09:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In pondering the difficulties of filming a Wolfe novel,\nand there are many, I think it is a mistake for us to sell\nscreenwriters and film directors short. Although films and\nplays are different from novels, they are still stories, at\ntheir heart, and a good storyteller can adapt a good\nstory out of ANY source material, just like John the\nBaptist raising Sons of Abraham out of the stones.\n\nThe best screenwriters and directors are just as capable\nand intelligent as Gene Wolfe. I have no doubt that, given\na chance, any artful and crafty filmmaker could do Gene\njustice." } ] }, { "message_id": "<131691.95097.qm@web63911.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Recursive Loop", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-12T15:16:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "<19ee41770704120809l478714a9g410d4f1d2728808@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Greetings:\n\n\"In pondering the difficulties of filming a Wolfe novel,\nand there are many, I think it is a mistake for us to sell\nscreenwriters and film directors short.\"\n\nWelllllll...let's see...\n\nThe film verison of \"I, Robot\" (took the title, but used a story somebody else wrote, slapped in\nsome Asimov characters, shake well and bleah)\n\nThe film version of \"Starship Troopers\" (where the director proudly stated he had not read the\nbook and was not going to read the book)\n\nA remake of \"The Day the Earth Stood Still\" (pending, but what do you want to bet it is going to\nstink)\n\nA remake of \"Psycho\" (why? why? why?)\n\nA remake of \"The Haunting\" (why? why? why?)\n\n...and many more...\n\nEvery now and again Hellywood gets it right. But my personal scorecard is heavily weighted on the\nother side of things.\n\nFPK3\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<163326.85361.qm@web32412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-12T18:29:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "<131691.95097.qm@web63911.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Recursive Loop wrote:\nGreetings:\n\n\"In pondering the difficulties of filming a Wolfe\nnovel,\nand there are many, I think it is a mistake for us\nto sell\nscreenwriters and film directors short.\"\n\nWelllllll...let's see..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The film version of \"Starship Troopers\" (where the\ndirector proudly stated he had not read the\nbook and was not going to read the book)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ahh, Starship Troopers. I hated that book so much that\nit colored my view of the rest of Heinlein's work.\n(Friday is the only novel I truly enjoyed. Heinlein's\nportrayal of California in that is still spot on.) The\nmovie, on the other hand, is a hilarious f*@% you to\nthe action movie obsessed public, as well as a great\nsatire of Gulf War One. The truly scary thing about it\nis that it applies to Gulf War Two just as well. It's\nthe most expensive american fascist propaganda movie\never made, and for my money the best science fiction\nmovie of the last 25 years, Blade Runner (which is\nalso a far less than faithful adaptation) included.\nAll my moderately humble opinion, of course.\n\nDon\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<472047.9187.qm@web63907.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Recursive Loop", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-12T18:32:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "<163326.85361.qm@web32412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Greetings:\n\n\"All my moderately humble opinion, of course.\"\n\nOf course!\n\n:)\n\nFPK3\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<909891.99346.qm@web32404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-12T19:42:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "<472047.9187.qm@web63907.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And a tip of the hat to you, good sir!\n\nI just want to add that the best way to appreciate the\nfull and nasty irony of the movie is to see it in a\npacked theater where nearly all of the moviegoers\ncheer insanely everytime something gets blowed up or\nmutilated. It's a movie that proves its message\nimmediately in such a setting. \n\nDon " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Recursive Loop wrote:\nGreetings:\n\n\"All my moderately humble opinion, of course.\"\n\nOf course!\n\n:)\n\nFPK3\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-12T21:06:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "<163326.85361.qm@web32412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Starship Troopers\"...is...\nfor my money the best science fiction\nmovie of the last 25 years, Blade Runner (which is\nalso a far less than faithful adaptation) included.\nAll my moderately humble opinion, of course." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[Silently judging Don's for his taste in scifi movies]\nWhile ST was not especially faithful to the book IIRC it did\nsuccessfully capture the \"tone\" and \"angle\" of the book. The book was\none of those scifi stories (there were a lot of these in the 50s) that\nwere really just the author's memoir of military life with some\nsociopolitical commentary thrown in. In every case, those stories\ncould more easily have been written in contemporary times.\n\nHmmm...I don't really see GWI in ST, but I could definitely see how it\ncould be seen as propaganda for the GWOT. I wish Hollywood would make\nmore war propaganda of the caliber of \"Battleground\" and \"Invasion of\nthe Body Snatchers\". Some of the best war and scifi movies of the 40s\nand 50s were propaganda. I wouldn't put Starship Troopers in that\ncategory, however.\n\n(Best propaganda film I've seen in a long while is \"Pan's Labyrinth\".)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-12T21:10:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "<19ee41770704120809l478714a9g410d4f1d2728808@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The issue isn't their intelligence. It is simply a difficulty in adapting to \nthe media.\n\nFor one thing, consider how often the written form of a typical Gene Wolfe \nstory has an important part to play in its interpretation. Are we for \nexample to take Severian's account as a strict and literal depiction of what \nhappened? If not, how do we express that uncertainty on film? Perhaps there \nwill be a way, but it won't be exactly the same as what's employed in the \nbook, and may tend to convey a different sense than the original. Also, we \nhave a psychological tendency to view what happens in a movie as a literal \ndepiction even if devices are employed to remind us that's not the case; \nthis gets in the way of a Wolfe story.\n\nOn a more commonplace level, there is the general problem of trying to \ncompress a long story line into the space of 2 hours. I don't care how much \nof a genius a filmmaker is, that's always going to be a source of \ndissatisfaction when you adapt a book to film." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In pondering the difficulties of filming a Wolfe novel,\nand there are many, I think it is a mistake for us to sell\nscreenwriters and film directors short. Although films and\nplays are different from novels, they are still stories, at\ntheir heart, and a good storyteller can adapt a good\nstory out of ANY source material, just like John the\nBaptist raising Sons of Abraham out of the stones.\n\nThe best screenwriters and directors are just as capable\nand intelligent as Gene Wolfe. I have no doubt that, given\na chance, any artful and crafty filmmaker could do Gene\njustice.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-12T21:19:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "<163326.85361.qm@web32412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Recursive Loop wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Greetings:\n\n\"In pondering the difficulties of filming a Wolfe\nnovel,\nand there are many, I think it is a mistake for us\nto sell\nscreenwriters and film directors short.\"\n\nWelllllll...let's see..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The film version of \"Starship Troopers\" (where the\ndirector proudly stated he had not read the\nbook and was not going to read the book)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ahh, Starship Troopers. I hated that book so much that\nit colored my view of the rest of Heinlein's work.\n(Friday is the only novel I truly enjoyed. Heinlein's\nportrayal of California in that is still spot on.) The\nmovie, on the other hand, is a hilarious f*@% you to\nthe action movie obsessed public, as well as a great\nsatire of Gulf War One. The truly scary thing about it\nis that it applies to Gulf War Two just as well. It's\nthe most expensive american fascist propaganda movie\never made, and for my money the best science fiction\nmovie of the last 25 years, Blade Runner (which is\nalso a far less than faithful adaptation) included.\nAll my moderately humble opinion, of course.\n\nDon" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have a hard time fitting this to GW I as well.\n\nAlso... I have trouble attributing a great deal of subtlety to the person \nwho, if I recall correctly, brought the film \"Showgirls\" into the world. \nYes, some direct satirical element remains, but I highly doubt that any \nmeta-level critique of action movie audiences is going on." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4290.67.142.130.42.1176414880.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-12T21:54:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While [Starship Troopers] was not especially faithful to the book IIRC\nit did successfully capture the \"tone\" and \"angle\" of the book. The book\nwas one of those scifi stories (there were a lot of these in the 50s) that\nwere really just the author's memoir of military life with some\nsociopolitical commentary thrown in." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah yes, a naval officer's memoir of his life in the infantry.\n\nWhat's really interesting about Heinlein - way more than his writing - is\nthe influence he has had upon the modern (US) military, which is profound.\nThere was a series of talks about this at the 2002 WorldCon.\n\nI've not seen the movie. I think that Heinlein generally is overrated, but\nI value the book reasonably well. Of course I was an infantryman and I\nmostly agree with Bob's political ideas.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Crossley", "address": "ishmael at drizzle.com" }, "date": "2007-04-12T22:02:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 4/12/07 2:19 PM, \"Chris\" wrote:\n--- Recursive Loop wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Greetings:\n\n\"In pondering the difficulties of filming a Wolfe\nnovel,\nand there are many, I think it is a mistake for us\nto sell\nscreenwriters and film directors short.\"\n\nWelllllll...let's see..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The film version of \"Starship Troopers\" (where the\ndirector proudly stated he had not read the\nbook and was not going to read the book)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ahh, Starship Troopers. I hated that book so much that\nit colored my view of the rest of Heinlein's work.\n(Friday is the only novel I truly enjoyed. Heinlein's\nportrayal of California in that is still spot on.) The\nmovie, on the other hand, is a hilarious f*@% you to\nthe action movie obsessed public, as well as a great\nsatire of Gulf War One. The truly scary thing about it\nis that it applies to Gulf War Two just as well. It's\nthe most expensive american fascist propaganda movie\never made, and for my money the best science fiction\nmovie of the last 25 years, Blade Runner (which is\nalso a far less than faithful adaptation) included.\nAll my moderately humble opinion, of course.\n\nDon" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have a hard time fitting this to GW I as well.\n\nAlso... I have trouble attributing a great deal of subtlety to the person\nwho, if I recall correctly, brought the film \"Showgirls\" into the world.\nYes, some direct satirical element remains, but I highly doubt that any\nmeta-level critique of action movie audiences is going on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right about \"Showgirls,\" but I have to disagree with you about\n\"Starship Troopers.\" Whether it's a subtle film or not, it's definitely a\nconscious commentary on the action movie as propaganda. I think the point\ncould be proved by going scene by scene through the movie, but I won't be\ninflicting that on anyone here.\n\nJames " } ] }, { "message_id": "<244106.59658.qm@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-12T22:26:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/12/07 2:19 PM, \"Chris\" \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also... I have trouble attributing a great deal of\nsubtlety to the person\nwho, if I recall correctly, brought the film\n\"Showgirls\" into the world." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I never claimed subtlety. It's actually more like a\npunch to the head. It's a comedy where the joke's on\nthe audience, really." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- James Crossley wrote:\nYou're right about \"Showgirls,\" but I have to\ndisagree with you about\n\"Starship Troopers.\" Whether it's a subtle film or\nnot, it's definitely a\nconscious commentary on the action movie as\npropaganda. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And anytime this movie is brought up on any list, this\nsort of thing comes up. Just scroll through the amazon\nreviews of the movie. I'm in the minority but\ndefinitely not on the fringe in my opinion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-12T22:29:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "<4290.67.142.130.42.1176414880.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 12, 2007, at 5:54 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "While [Starship Troopers] was not especially faithful to the book \nIIRC\nit did successfully capture the \"tone\" and \"angle\" of the book. \nThe book\nwas one of those scifi stories (there were a lot of these in the \n50s) that\nwere really just the author's memoir of military life with some\nsociopolitical commentary thrown in." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah yes, a naval officer's memoir of his life in the infantry.\n\nWhat's really interesting about Heinlein - way more than his \nwriting - is\nthe influence he has had upon the modern (US) military, which is \nprofound.\nThere was a series of talks about this at the 2002 WorldCon.\n\nI've not seen the movie. I think that Heinlein generally is \noverrated, but\nI value the book reasonably well. Of course I was an infantryman and I\nmostly agree with Bob's political ideas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is a petition on the internets somewhere to have a US aircraft \ncarrier named after him, I think." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-12T22:32:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "<131691.95097.qm@web63911.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 12, 2007, at 11:16 AM, Recursive Loop wrote:\n\nWelllllll...let's see...\n\nThe film version of \"Starship Troopers\" (where the director proudly \nstated he had not read the\nbook and was not going to read the book)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is interesting to me since I just read the wikipedia article on \n\"Aliens,\" which states that James Cameron made everybody who was \ngoing to play a Colonial Marine read _Starship Troopers._ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<685973.64947.qm@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-12T22:33:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- James Wynn wrote:\n[Silently judging Don's for his taste in scifi\nmovies]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I love Krull, too. So take my opinion for what it's\nworth. ; )\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370704121705g47feb42dh1cdc809be15a0c9@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T00:05:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/12/07, James Wynn wrote:\nWhile ST was not especially faithful to the book IIRC it did\nsuccessfully capture the \"tone\" and \"angle\" of the book. The book was\none of those scifi stories (there were a lot of these in the 50s) that\nwere really just the author's memoir of military life with some\nsociopolitical commentary thrown in." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No and no and no.\n\nIt was plot-wise fairly faithful to about half of ST. But it utterly betrayed\nthe tone and angle of the book; the book is deeply libertarian (though some\npeople miss that), while the movie was more or less facistic in tone.\n\n\nAnd ST couldn't be farther from Heinlein's military experience and\nstill be a military adventure story/bildungsroman: he was a Navy officer\nwho never saw wartime service (because he was invalided out after\ncontracting TB), not an enlisted soldier." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In every case, those stories\ncould more easily have been written in contemporary times." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since the two most significant (to RAH) points of the story were\n(a) to depict a military-based libertarian society, and (b) to argue\nthe necessity of \"military virtues\" for species survival, I don't think\nso." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Best propaganda film I've seen in a long while is \"Pan's Labyrinth\".)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Better than \"Fahrenheit 9/11\" and \"An Inconvenient Truth\"?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." } ] }, { "message_id": "<14601.67.142.130.29.1176425923.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-13T00:58:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is a petition on the internets somewhere to have a US aircraft\ncarrier named after [Heinlein], I think." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd sign it.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<66024.18034.qm@web54401.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nathan Spears", "address": "spearofsolomon at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T01:40:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "<14601.67.142.130.29.1176425923.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It was plot-wise fairly faithful to about half of ST. But it utterly betrayed\nthe tone and angle of the book; the book is deeply libertarian (though some\npeople miss that), while the movie was more or less facistic in tone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure whether the film was intended as a satire or not - but that's certainly the only way it can be enjoyed.\n\n\n\nWitness dialogue like the following:\n\nRico: \"You're some sort of big, fat, smart-bug, aren't you?\"\n\n\n\nWho, even in Hollywood, could have green-lit that bit of cheese into a\nbig budget movie without knowing exactly how campy it was? Although as\na joke on the audience, it gets very tiresome if no one else in the\nroom is laughing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(Best propaganda film I've seen in a long while is \"Pan's Labyrinth\".)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Better than \"Fahrenheit 9/11\" and \"An Inconvenient Truth\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When the Levees Broke is good, more relevant than Pan's." } ] }, { "message_id": "<265705.9986.qm@web32414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T02:01:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "<66024.18034.qm@web54401.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Nathan Spears wrote:\n\n\nWitness dialogue like the following:\n\nRico: \"You're some sort of big, fat, smart-bug,\naren't you?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What can I say? That's actually one of my favorite\nlines in the movie. That, and Nazi Doogie Howser\nreading the brain bug's mind and saying \"He's afraid!\"\nLove it or hate it, everything in the movie is done\nthe way it is on purpose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who, even in Hollywood, could have green-lit that\nbit of cheese into a\nbig budget movie without knowing exactly how campy\nit was? Although as\na joke on the audience, it gets very tiresome if no\none else in the\nroom is laughing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm often my own best company when I watch Starship\nTroopers. Fortunately, when I first saw it I was with\na like minded friend.\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<10704130210.AA12597@slack.com>", "from": { "name": "David DiGiacomo", "address": "david at slack.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T02:10:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "<265705.9986.qm@web32414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been sitting on my hands trying not to join this off-topic-athon, but\nthis comment on Starship Troopers finally pushed me over the edge:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure whether the film was intended as a satire or not - but\nthat's certainly the only way it can be enjoyed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here is what Verhoeven has to say about it:\n\nhttp://suicidegirls.com/interviews/Paul+Verhoeven/\n\n\"I always thought the movie was badly understood. There was an article in\nThe Washington Post when it came out that was not written by a movie\ncritic. One of the editors wrote it saying that this was a neo-Nazi movie\nand I was promoting Fascism. That same article was published in all the\nEuropean newspapers. When I went to do the publicity tour in Europe,\neverybody was already looking through that lens. The Washington Post is\nnot a reliable newspaper anyway but they said the film was written by a\nneo-Nazi or a Fascist and directed by one. I strongly disagree with that.\nI saw it as a critique of American society. It is done in an ironic way\nbut not pushing it very hard, which I hate because then it becomes\ndogmatic and becomes something else other than filmmaking. It was more\nthat the novel by Robert Heinlein is very militaristic and has a tendency\nto be pro-Fascist a bit. We took a lot of cues out of American society at\nthat time, which was [President Bill] Clinton, not realizing that a couple\nyears later this whole situation would be much more acute and now you can\nput the film as a blueprint over Iraq or Afghanistan. But of course, I\ndidn't know of bin Laden at that time.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T02:28:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "<265705.9986.qm@web32414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 12, 2007, at 10:01 PM, don doggett wrote:\n\n--- Nathan Spears wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Witness dialogue like the following:\n\nRico: \"You're some sort of big, fat, smart-bug,\naren't you?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What can I say? That's actually one of my favorite\nlines in the movie. That, and Nazi Doogie Howser\nreading the brain bug's mind and saying \"He's afraid!\"\nLove it or hate it, everything in the movie is done\nthe way it is on purpose." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I particularly liked the scene when Dina Meyer's character gets it. \nIt is not often you get a scene like that in a movie that is so \nperfectly, masterfully overdone. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<51A039B5-990B-47C7-AF75-F76922D964A4@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T02:31:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "<265705.9986.qm@web32414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 12, 2007, at 9:01 PM, don doggett wrote:\n--- Nathan Spears wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rico: \"You're some sort of big, fat, smart-bug,\naren't you?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What can I say? That's actually one of my favorite\nlines in the movie. That, and Nazi Doogie Howser" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ITYM \"Il Duce Hauser\". HTH! HAND!\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-04-13T11:03:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Transentient writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I particularly liked the scene when Dina Meyer's character gets it. \nIt is not often you get a scene like that in a movie that is so \nperfectly, masterfully overdone. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. It's a remarkably good movie, and a skillful deconstruction of the \nbook. \n\nHowever . . . \n\nI wonder if any one has recorded Wolfe's reaction to the original novel \nSTARSHIP TROOPERS??? \n\nWhile I don't **like** it as a reading experience, I think Wolfe might have \nbeen sympathetic with its ideological thrust. \n\nThe whole definition of \ncivilians-as-those-who-risk-their-lives-to-defend-the-polis is straight \nfrom classical Greek culture and is the foundation of Western civilisation. \n\n\n - hartshorn \n\n \n\n \n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "<461F67A9.4050908@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jesper Svedberg", "address": "jsvedberg at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T11:21:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andy Robertson skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wonder if any one has recorded Wolfe's reaction to the original novel \nSTARSHIP TROOPERS??? \n\nWhile I don't **like** it as a reading experience, I think Wolfe might have \nbeen sympathetic with its ideological thrust. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"The Blue Mouse\" comes off as being fairly close ideologically to \nStarship Troopers, doesn't it?\n\n\n // Jesper" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-04-13T11:31:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "<461F67A9.4050908@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jesper Svedberg writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"The Blue Mouse\" comes off as being fairly close ideologically to \nStarship Troopers, doesn't it? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had clean forgotten that story, it does \n\n \n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T17:39:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370704121705g47feb42dh1cdc809be15a0c9@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(Best propaganda film I've seen in a long while is \"Pan's Labyrinth\".)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Better than \"Fahrenheit 9/11\" and \"An Inconvenient Truth\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The best propaganda a) does not require that the audience know\nanything about or *even have an interest in* the subject they are\nbeing propagandized on, and (most important) b) cannot be factually\nrebutted.\n\nWhen I say it can't be factually rebutted I mean that it is not\npossible because it doesn't operate on a linear \"true-false\" level. If\nyou agree with Moore or Gore, then their movies are useful red meat to\nget you pumped up. If you don't you are only going to be offended\nwhenever you note a factual error or inconsistency.\n\nBut \"Pan's Labyrinth\", which never claims to represent real people, is\nfar more effective at convincing the emotions and attitudes of the\naudience. All this is esoteric for Americans, but the Spanish are\ncurrently in a true culture war about how to define the players during\nthat period.\n\nI think \"Pan's Labyrinth\" is for Spain what \"Birth of a Nation\" was\nfor the U.S. in the early 1900s." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T22:25:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short", "in_reply_to": "<265705.9986.qm@web32414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My personal favorite:\n\n\"Rico, I'm gonna die.\"\n\"No, you're not gonna die!\"\n\"It's OK, because I got to have you.\"\n\nFor some reason I'm the only person in the theater who laughed out loud at \nthat exchange." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Nathan Spears wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Witness dialogue like the following:\n\nRico: \"You're some sort of big, fat, smart-bug,\naren't you?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What can I say? That's actually one of my favorite\nlines in the movie. That, and Nazi Doogie Howser\nreading the brain bug's mind and saying \"He's afraid!\"\nLove it or hate it, everything in the movie is done\nthe way it is on purpose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who, even in Hollywood, could have green-lit that\nbit of cheese into a\nbig budget movie without knowing exactly how campy\nit was? Although as\na joke on the audience, it gets very tiresome if no\none else in the\nroom is laughing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm often my own best company when I watch Starship\nTroopers. Fortunately, when I first saw it I was with\na like minded friend.\n\n\n\n____________________________________________________________________________________\nNeed Mail bonding?\nGo to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.\nhttp://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }