Subject: (urth) Don't Sell 'Em Short

From: Jack Redelfs <jackredelfs at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 15:09:40 +0000

In pondering the difficulties of filming a Wolfe novel,
and there are many, I think it is a mistake for us to sell
screenwriters and film directors short. Although films and
plays are different from novels, they are still stories, at
their heart, and a good storyteller can adapt a good
story out of ANY source material, just like John the
Baptist raising Sons of Abraham out of the stones.

The best screenwriters and directors are just as capable
and intelligent as Gene Wolfe. I have no doubt that, given
a chance, any artful and crafty filmmaker could do Gene
justice.

---

From: Recursive Loop <recursive_loop at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 15:16:19 +0000

"In pondering the difficulties of filming a Wolfe novel,
and there are many, I think it is a mistake for us to sell
screenwriters and film directors short."

Welllllll...let's see...

The film verison of "I, Robot" (took the title, but used a story somebody else wrote, slapped in
some Asimov characters, shake well and bleah)

The film version of "Starship Troopers" (where the director proudly stated he had not read the
book and was not going to read the book)

A remake of "The Day the Earth Stood Still" (pending, but what do you want to bet it is going to
stink)

A remake of "Psycho" (why? why? why?)

A remake of "The Haunting" (why? why? why?)

...and many more...

Every now and again Hellywood gets it right. But my personal scorecard is heavily weighted on the
other side of things.

FPK3

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From: don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:29:45 +0000

--- Recursive Loop <recursive_loop at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Greetings:
 
> The film version of "Starship Troopers" (where the
> director proudly stated he had not read the

Ahh, Starship Troopers. I hated that book so much that
it colored my view of the rest of Heinlein's work.
(Friday is the only novel I truly enjoyed. Heinlein's
portrayal of California in that is still spot on.) The
movie, on the other hand, is a hilarious f*@% you to
the action movie obsessed public, as well as a great
satire of Gulf War One. The truly scary thing about it
is that it applies to Gulf War Two just as well. It's
the most expensive american fascist propaganda movie
ever made, and for my money the best science fiction
movie of the last 25 years, Blade Runner (which is
also a far less than faithful adaptation) included.
All my moderately humble opinion, of course.

Don

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From: Recursive Loop <recursive_loop at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:32:29 +0000

"All my moderately humble opinion, of course."

Of course!

:)

FPK3

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From: don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:42:32 +0000

And a tip of the hat to you, good sir!

I just want to add that the best way to appreciate the
full and nasty irony of the movie is to see it in a
packed theater where nearly all of the moviegoers
cheer insanely everytime something gets blowed up or
mutilated. It's a movie that proves its message
immediately in such a setting. 

Don  

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 21:06:19 +0000

>"Starship Troopers"...is...
>for my money the best science fiction
[Silently judging Don's for his taste in scifi movies]
While ST was not especially faithful to the book IIRC it did
successfully capture the "tone" and "angle" of the book. The book was
one of those scifi stories (there were a lot of these in the 50s) that
were really just the author's memoir of military life with some
sociopolitical commentary thrown in. In every case, those stories
could more easily have been written in contemporary times.

Hmmm...I don't really see GWI in ST, but I could definitely see how it
could be seen as propaganda for the GWOT. I wish Hollywood would make
more war propaganda of the caliber of "Battleground" and "Invasion of
the Body Snatchers". Some of the best war and scifi movies of the 40s
and 50s were propaganda. I wouldn't put Starship Troopers in that
category, however.

(Best propaganda film I've seen in a long while is "Pan's Labyrinth".)

---

From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 21:10:31 +0000

The issue isn't their intelligence. It is simply a difficulty in adapting to 
the media.

For one thing, consider how often the written form of a typical Gene Wolfe 
story has an important part to play in its interpretation. Are we for 
example to take Severian's account as a strict and literal depiction of what 
happened? If not, how do we express that uncertainty on film? Perhaps there 
will be a way, but it won't be exactly the same as what's employed in the 
book, and may tend to convey a different sense than the original. Also, we 
have a psychological tendency to view what happens in a movie as a literal 
depiction even if devices are employed to remind us that's not the case; 
this gets in the way of a Wolfe story.

On a more commonplace level, there is the general problem of trying to 
compress a long story line into the space of 2 hours. I don't care how much 
of a genius a filmmaker is, that's always going to be a source of 
dissatisfaction when you adapt a book to film.

>a chance, any artful and crafty filmmaker could do Gene

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 21:19:14 +0000

>All my moderately humble opinion, of course.

I have a hard time fitting this to GW I as well.

Also... I have trouble attributing a great deal of subtlety to the person 
who, if I recall correctly, brought the film "Showgirls" into the world. 
Yes, some direct satirical element remains, but I highly doubt that any 
meta-level critique of action movie audiences is going on.

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 21:54:40 +0000

> While [Starship Troopers] was not especially faithful to the book IIRC
> it did successfully capture the "tone" and "angle" of the book. The book
> was one of those scifi stories (there were a lot of these in the 50s) that
> sociopolitical commentary thrown in.

Ah yes, a naval officer's memoir of his life in the infantry.

What's really interesting about Heinlein - way more than his writing - is
the influence he has had upon the modern (US) military, which is profound.
There was a series of talks about this at the 2002 WorldCon.

I've not seen the movie. I think that Heinlein generally is overrated, but
I value the book reasonably well. Of course I was an infantryman and I
mostly agree with Bob's political ideas.

.

---

From: James Crossley <ishmael at drizzle.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:02:09 +0000

> meta-level critique of action movie audiences is going on.
You're right about "Showgirls," but I have to disagree with you about
"Starship Troopers."  Whether it's a subtle film or not, it's definitely a
conscious commentary on the action movie as propaganda.  I think the point
could be proved by going scene by scene through the movie, but I won't be
inflicting that on anyone here.

James

---

From: don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:26:11 +0000

> "Showgirls" into the world.

I never claimed subtlety. It's actually more like a
punch to the head. It's a comedy where the joke's on
the audience, really.

--- James Crossley <ishmael at drizzle.com> wrote:

> conscious commentary on the action movie as
> propaganda.  

And anytime this movie is brought up on any list, this
sort of thing comes up. Just scroll through the amazon
reviews of the movie. I'm in the minority but
definitely not on the fringe in my opinion.

       
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From: Transentient <transentient at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:29:29 +0000

> mostly agree with Bob's political ideas.

There is a petition on the internets somewhere to have a US aircraft  
carrier named after him, I think.

---

From: Transentient <transentient at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:32:41 +0000

> book and was not going to read the book)

This is interesting to me since I just read the wikipedia article on  
"Aliens,"  which states that James Cameron made everybody who was  
going to play a Colonial Marine read _Starship Troopers._

---

From: don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:33:30 +0000

> [Silently judging Don's for his taste in scifi

I love Krull, too. So take my opinion for what it's
worth. ; )

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 00:05:17 +0000

> sociopolitical commentary thrown in.

No and no and no.

It was plot-wise fairly faithful to about half of ST. But it utterly betrayed
the tone and angle of the book; the book is deeply libertarian (though some
people miss that), while the movie was more or less facistic in tone.

And ST couldn't be farther from Heinlein's military experience and
still be a military adventure story/bildungsroman: he was a Navy officer
who never saw wartime service (because he was invalided out after
contracting TB), not an enlisted soldier.

> In every case, those stories

Since the two most significant (to RAH) points of the story were
(a) to depict a military-based libertarian society, and (b) to argue
the necessity of "military virtues" for species survival, I don't think
so.

> (Best propaganda film I've seen in a long while is "Pan's Labyrinth".)

Better than "Fahrenheit 9/11" and "An Inconvenient Truth"?

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 00:58:43 +0000

> carrier named after [Heinlein], I think.

I'd sign it.

.

---

From: Nathan Spears <spearofsolomon at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 01:40:52 +0000

> people miss that), while the movie was more or less facistic in tone.

I'm not sure whether the film was intended as a satire or not - but that's certainly the only way it can be enjoyed.

Witness dialogue like the following:

Rico: "You're some sort of big, fat, smart-bug, aren't you?"

Who, even in Hollywood, could have green-lit that bit of cheese into a
big budget movie without knowing exactly how campy it was?  Although as
a joke on the audience, it gets very tiresome if no one else in the
room is laughing.

> Better than "Fahrenheit 9/11" and "An Inconvenient Truth"?

When the Levees Broke is good, more relevant than Pan's.

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From: don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 02:01:09 +0000

> Rico: "You're some sort of big, fat, smart-bug,

What can I say? That's actually one of my favorite
lines in the movie. That, and Nazi Doogie Howser
reading the brain bug's mind and saying "He's afraid!"
Love it or hate it, everything in the movie is done
the way it is on purpose.

> a joke on the audience, it gets very tiresome if no

I'm often my own best company when I watch Starship
Troopers. Fortunately, when I first saw it I was with
a like minded friend.

---

From: David DiGiacomo <david at slack.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 02:10:21 +0000

I've been sitting on my hands trying not to join this off-topic-athon, but
this comment on Starship Troopers finally pushed me over the edge:

>I'm not sure whether the film was intended as a satire or not - but
>that's certainly the only way it can be enjoyed.

Here is what Verhoeven has to say about it:

http://suicidegirls.com/interviews/Paul+Verhoeven/

"I always thought the movie was badly understood. There was an article in
The Washington Post when it came out that was not written by a movie
critic. One of the editors wrote it saying that this was a neo-Nazi movie
and I was promoting Fascism. That same article was published in all the
European newspapers. When I went to do the publicity tour in Europe,
everybody was already looking through that lens. The Washington Post is
not a reliable newspaper anyway but they said the film was written by a
neo-Nazi or a Fascist and directed by one. I strongly disagree with that.
I saw it as a critique of American society. It is done in an ironic way
but not pushing it very hard, which I hate because then it becomes
dogmatic and becomes something else other than filmmaking. It was more
that the novel by Robert Heinlein is very militaristic and has a tendency
to be pro-Fascist a bit. We took a lot of cues out of American society at
that time, which was [President Bill] Clinton, not realizing that a couple
years later this whole situation would be much more acute and now you can
put the film as a blueprint over Iraq or Afghanistan. But of course, I
didn't know of bin Laden at that time."

---

From: Transentient <transentient at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 02:28:10 +0000

> the way it is on purpose.

I particularly liked the scene when Dina Meyer's character gets it.  
It is not often you get a scene like that in a movie that is so  
perfectly, masterfully overdone.

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 02:31:38 +0000

> lines in the movie. That, and Nazi Doogie Howser

ITYM "Il Duce Hauser".  HTH!  HAND!

Adam

---

From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:03:53 +0000

> perfectly, masterfully overdone. 

I agree.  It's a remarkably good movie, and a skillful deconstruction of the 
book. 

However . . . 

I wonder if any one has recorded Wolfe's reaction to the original novel 
STARSHIP TROOPERS??? 

While I don't **like** it as a reading experience, I think Wolfe might have 
been sympathetic with its ideological thrust. 

The whole definition of 
civilians-as-those-who-risk-their-lives-to-defend-the-polis   is straight 
from classical Greek culture and is the foundation of Western civilisation. 

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From: Jesper Svedberg <jsvedberg at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:21:13 +0000

> been sympathetic with its ideological thrust. 

"The Blue Mouse" comes off as being fairly close ideologically to 
Starship Troopers, doesn't it?

   // Jesper

---

From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:31:22 +0000

> Starship Troopers, doesn't it? 

I had clean forgotten that story, it does

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:39:13 +0000

> Better than "Fahrenheit 9/11" and "An Inconvenient Truth"?

The best propaganda a) does not require that the audience know
anything about or *even have an interest in* the subject they are
being propagandized on, and (most important) b) cannot be factually
rebutted.

When I say it can't be factually rebutted I mean that it is not
possible because it doesn't operate on a linear "true-false" level. If
you agree with Moore or Gore, then their movies are useful red meat to
get you pumped up. If you don't you are only going to be offended
whenever you note a factual error or inconsistency.

But "Pan's Labyrinth", which never claims to represent real people, is
far more effective at convincing the emotions and attitudes of the
audience. All this is esoteric for Americans, but the Spanish are
currently in a true culture war about how to define the players during
that period.

I think "Pan's Labyrinth" is for Spain what "Birth of a Nation" was
for the U.S. in the early 1900s.

---

From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 22:25:39 +0000

My personal favorite:

"Rico, I'm gonna die."
"No, you're not gonna die!"
"It's OK, because I got to have you."

For some reason I'm the only person in the theater who laughed out loud at 
that exchange.

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