{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4815", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4815, "subject": "Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "messages": 50, "voices": 21, "first": "2007-04-13T00:19:10+00:00", "last": "2007-04-15T22:01:38+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<39ed084f0704121719g4e6a33bew9a46c07cde96daed@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T00:19:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was hoping to find some discussion of Vonnegut on the list today.\nIt's been too long since I read Slaughterhouse Five for me to offer\nanything. (All I remember is \"Billy Pilgrim has come unstuck in\ntime.\") Are there any thoughts on Vonnegut from Wolfe's fans?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Batrinque at aol.com", "address": "batrinque at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T00:34:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0704121719g4e6a33bew9a46c07cde96daed@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 4/12/2007 8:20:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, \nmatthewalangroves at gmail.com writes:\n\nI was hoping to find some discussion of Vonnegut on the list today.\nIt's been too long since I read Slaughterhouse Five for me to offer\nanything. (All I remember is \"Billy Pilgrim has come unstuck in\ntime.\") Are there any thoughts on Vonnegut from Wolfe's fans?\n\n\n\nI'm still digesting the news to offer any cogent comments. There has been \nsome discussion of his passing in the Patrick O'Brian mail group to which I \nbelong.\n \n \nBruce Trinque\nAmston, CT" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kurt Schwind", "address": "kurt.schwind at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T00:45:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0704121719g4e6a33bew9a46c07cde96daed@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We've lost another master. Vonnegut's works are a pure pleasure to\nread. A very different style than Wolfes, but Vonnegut is one of my\nfavourite writers of all time.\n\nI had an opportunity to go hear Kurt Vonnegut speak. He was as funny,\nsmart and witty in person as he is in his books. I'll miss him\ngreatly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/12/07, Matthew Groves wrote:\nI was hoping to find some discussion of Vonnegut on the list today.\nIt's been too long since I read Slaughterhouse Five for me to offer\nanything. (All I remember is \"Billy Pilgrim has come unstuck in\ntime.\") Are there any thoughts on Vonnegut from Wolfe's fans?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10949.67.142.130.29.1176426130.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-13T01:02:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0704121719g4e6a33bew9a46c07cde96daed@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was hoping to find some discussion of Vonnegut on the list today.\nIt's been too long since I read Slaughterhouse Five for me to offer\nanything. (All I remember is \"Billy Pilgrim has come unstuck in\ntime.\") Are there any thoughts on Vonnegut from Wolfe's fans?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Overrated.\n\nWhines a lot.\n\nWrote some OK stuff, but no more than OK.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<794710.9942.qm@web32415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T01:09:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<10949.67.142.130.29.1176426130.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nOverrated.\n\nWhines a lot.\n\nWrote some OK stuff, but no more than OK." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lived through Dresden.\n\nBuried countless bodies.\n\nWas a charitable enough spirit that he probably\nwouldn't be offended by your comments.\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<77a389ab0704121918v6951baa3t9afb28d4a2282eb3@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Spencer Hensley", "address": "spencer.hensley at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T02:18:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<794710.9942.qm@web32415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Amen, don.\n\nBrunians, your comments are offensive and unessecary.\n\n\"So it goes.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/12/07, don doggett wrote:\n\n\n--- brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Overrated.\n\nWhines a lot.\n\nWrote some OK stuff, but no more than OK." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lived through Dresden.\n\nBuried countless bodies.\n\nWas a charitable enough spirit that he probably\nwouldn't be offended by your comments.\n\n\n\n\n\n____________________________________________________________________________________\nThe fish are biting.\nGet more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.\nhttp://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12302.67.142.130.15.1176430970.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-13T02:22:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<794710.9942.qm@web32415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lived through Dresden." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Buried countless bodies." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Things are tough all over." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Was a charitable enough spirit that he probably\nwouldn't be offended by your comments." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, we'd probably get along.\n\nAnd I'd tell him to his face that he whines too much, also.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<2c58e76b0704121947y76e5f656w86c71c95a7aa627@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Four Color", "address": "fourcolorhero at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T02:47:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<12302.67.142.130.15.1176430970.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had the good fortune to have lunch with Kurt Vonnegut in 1992. He\nwas a funny, wise guy. I'll always remember the presentation he made\nearlier that day, including a brief deconstruction of the conventional\nplot triangle, using Kafka's \"Metamorphosis\":\n\n[Vonnegut on stage, at chalkboard, mic in one hand, chalk in other.\nAudience expecting to see the plot triangle drawn on the board.]\n\n\"One morning, as Gregor Samsa was waking up from anxious dreams, he\ndiscovered that in bed he had been changed into a monstrous bug.\"\n\n[Vonnegut draws a line going straight down.]\n\n\"Oh sh**.\"\n\nMuch my feeling when I awoke this morning and discovered that he had died.\n\nRegards,\nTim" } ] }, { "message_id": "<77a389ab0704121949j390aef1em501a7349f09476b2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Spencer Hensley", "address": "spencer.hensley at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T02:49:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<12302.67.142.130.15.1176430970.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Brunians, you were pretty curt and rude on the thread I started too.\nI guess I can't say whether or not Vonnegut would have gotten along\nwith you, in particular. But I'm having trouble seeing how ANYone\ncould stomach your antics.\n\nIn any case, your comments neither a) contribute to dialogue about\nVeonnegut, nor b)\ncomment on his death. If you don't like him, that's fine, but at least let\nus know why\nso that a conversation might evolve from it. Otherwise, why do you think\nwe want to know what you think?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/12/07, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lived through Dresden." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Buried countless bodies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Things are tough all over." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Was a charitable enough spirit that he probably\nwouldn't be offended by your comments." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, we'd probably get along.\n\nAnd I'd tell him to his face that he whines too much, also.\n\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1325.67.142.130.27.1176432752.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-13T02:52:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<77a389ab0704121949j390aef1em501a7349f09476b2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You seem to be having a bit of trouble, here.\n\nI hope you do feel better.\n\nThank you very much for sharing your thoughts. However profoundly I may\ndisagree with you, I certainly think you have every right to share your\nthoughts and feeling with whoever you wish to.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Brunians, you were pretty curt and rude on the thread I started too.\nI guess I can't say whether or not Vonnegut would have gotten along\nwith you, in particular. But I'm having trouble seeing how ANYone\ncould stomach your antics.\n\nIn any case, your comments neither a) contribute to dialogue about\nVeonnegut, nor b)\ncomment on his death. If you don't like him, that's fine, but at least let\nus know why\nso that a conversation might evolve from it. Otherwise, why do you think\nwe want to know what you think?\n\nOn 4/12/07, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Lived through Dresden." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Buried countless bodies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Things are tough all over." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Was a charitable enough spirit that he probably\nwouldn't be offended by your comments." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, we'd probably get along.\n\nAnd I'd tell him to his face that he whines too much, also.\n\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<461EFBFC.3040803@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T03:41:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<77a389ab0704121949j390aef1em501a7349f09476b2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Spencer Hensley wrote:\nBrunians, you were pretty curt and rude on the thread I started too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Please do not feed the energy creature." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4688.67.142.130.24.1176438772.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-13T04:32:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<461EFBFC.3040803@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Spencer Hensley wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Brunians, you were pretty curt and rude on the thread I started too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Please do not feed the energy creature." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pardon?\n\nIt's remarkable how stirred up people get over a person expressing their\nopinion.\n\nI don't think it is right for you to interfere in Spencer's attempt to put\nme in my place.\n\nIt is obviously important to him, and the sooner he learns to distinguish\nbetween the things that are under his control and the things that are not\nunder his control, the better off he'll be.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<77a389ab0704122137k70119152j699ae05be04c8b0f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Spencer Hensley", "address": "spencer.hensley at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T04:37:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<4688.67.142.130.24.1176438772.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, you..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/12/07, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Spencer Hensley wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Brunians, you were pretty curt and rude on the thread I started too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Please do not feed the energy creature." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pardon?\n\nIt's remarkable how stirred up people get over a person expressing their\nopinion.\n\nI don't think it is right for you to interfere in Spencer's attempt to put\nme in my place.\n\nIt is obviously important to him, and the sooner he learns to distinguish\nbetween the things that are under his control and the things that are not\nunder his control, the better off he'll be.\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<77a389ab0704122139p2dd87fc5ue9c0f027600be874@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Spencer Hensley", "address": "spencer.hensley at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T04:39:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<4688.67.142.130.24.1176438772.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't worry about it. I'm just blocking your email.\n\nNo hard feelings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/12/07, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Spencer Hensley wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Brunians, you were pretty curt and rude on the thread I started too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Please do not feed the energy creature." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pardon?\n\nIt's remarkable how stirred up people get over a person expressing their\nopinion.\n\nI don't think it is right for you to interfere in Spencer's attempt to put\nme in my place.\n\nIt is obviously important to him, and the sooner he learns to distinguish\nbetween the things that are under his control and the things that are not\nunder his control, the better off he'll be.\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8271.67.142.130.24.1176439345.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-13T04:42:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<77a389ab0704122139p2dd87fc5ue9c0f027600be874@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Spencer writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't worry about it. I'm just blocking your email." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If that's what you must do to retain your self-control, so be it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No hard feelings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly not.\n\nIt seems to me, in my ignorance, that the same thing could be accomplished\nby not reacting, but what do I know, really?\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-04-13T11:09:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0704121719g4e6a33bew9a46c07cde96daed@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Matthew Groves writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was hoping to find some discussion of Vonnegut on the list today.\nIt's been too long since I read Slaughterhouse Five for me to offer\nanything. (All I remember is \"Billy Pilgrim has come unstuck in\ntime.\") Are there any thoughts on Vonnegut from Wolfe's fans?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\n\nAn athiest whose beliefs illuminated his writing as thoroughly and wisely as \nWolfe's christianity illuminates his. \n\nVery different from Wolfe in every other way, I think, except for being a \ngood man. \n\n\n - hartshorn \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Cliff Judge", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T13:50:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<8271.67.142.130.24.1176439345.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You guys don't get out on the internets of the 21st century much, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/13/07, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nSpencer writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Don't worry about it. I'm just blocking your email." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If that's what you must do to retain your self-control, so be it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No hard feelings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Certainly not.\n\nIt seems to me, in my ignorance, that the same thing could be accomplished\nby not reacting, but what do I know, really?\n\n\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2191.67.142.130.25.1176477506.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-13T15:18:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An athiest whose beliefs illuminated his writing as thoroughly and wisely\nas Wolfe's christianity illuminates his." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not his fault, I suppose, that atheism is so much less interesting than\nChristianity.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<383184.11399.qm@web35914.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T15:26:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<2191.67.142.130.25.1176477506.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "brunians at brunians.org snarked: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not his fault, I suppose, that atheism is so much\nless interesting than Christianity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To Christians, perhaps.\n \n\n\nhttp://www.sff.net/people/stilskin" } ] }, { "message_id": "<461FA2C5.1020608@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jesper Svedberg", "address": "jsvedberg at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T15:33:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<383184.11399.qm@web35914.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "stilskin skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org snarked: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not his fault, I suppose, that atheism is so much\nless interesting than Christianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To Christians, perhaps." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I sort of agree with him. But then, I've always prefered fantasy \nto realistic literature.\n\n\n // Jesper" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53ECE009-6EDE-4E46-8AA1-DF1EAF1ADDBE@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T15:37:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<383184.11399.qm@web35914.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 13, 2007, at 10:26 AM, stilskin wrote:\nbrunians at brunians.org snarked:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not his fault, I suppose, that atheism is so much\nless interesting than Christianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To Christians, perhaps." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To people who enjoy stories.\n\n\"Stuff happened\" is much inferior to \"Someone made stuff happen\"\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6002AF52-E8E6-4C37-B2BF-575F8AC0D02C@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T16:54:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<461FA2C5.1020608@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Arma Virumque blog has an interesting note on KV's passing, from \nwhich:\n\nSurely I'm not alone in having spent much of middle and high school \nreading Kurt Vonnegut and then much of college sneering at anyone \ngullible enough to read him. If Vonnegut’s novels are anything, \nthey’re easily outgrown, but what is easily outgrown is very often a \nperfect place to start. I owe a lot to those books, for one thing the \nability to see their influence on some of today’s worst writing.\n\nhttp://www.newcriterion.com/weblog/2007/04/kilgore-trout-was-here.html" } ] }, { "message_id": "<875716.40211.qm@web32412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T17:22:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<53ECE009-6EDE-4E46-8AA1-DF1EAF1ADDBE@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org snarked:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Not his fault, I suppose, that atheism is so much\nless interesting than Christianity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This makes me think of the Chinese curse: \"May you\nlive in interesting times.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 13, 2007, at 10:26 AM, stilskin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To Christians, perhaps." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, I don't know. I have a lot of affinity for\nChristianity as my cultural base. It's as good a\nreligion as any. But it gets to be pretty tiresome in\nfiction after a while." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Matthew King wrote:\nTo people who enjoy stories.\n\n\"Stuff happened\" is much inferior to \"Someone made\nstuff happen\"\n\nMatthew" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Stuff happened\" is almost everything. \"Someone made\nstuff happen\" is usually laid over it by people trying\nto make sense of that \"stuff\". Christians hardly have\na lock on interesting fiction, nor are athiests\nexcluded from it.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370704131030i679a742bgf60ee484249065aa@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T17:30:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0704121719g4e6a33bew9a46c07cde96daed@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I put my comments on my blog at\nhttp://sturgeonslawyer.livejournal.com and don't feel a need to repeat\nthem here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/12/07, Matthew Groves wrote:\nI was hoping to find some discussion of Vonnegut on the list today.\nIt's been too long since I read Slaughterhouse Five for me to offer\nanything. (All I remember is \"Billy Pilgrim has come unstuck in\ntime.\") Are there any thoughts on Vonnegut from Wolfe's fans?\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370704131038r5941fe99rd563b503c17565e7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T17:38:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<875716.40211.qm@web32412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/13/07, don doggett wrote:\n\"Stuff happened\" is almost everything. \"Someone made\nstuff happen\" is usually laid over it by people trying\nto make sense of that \"stuff\". Christians hardly have\na lock on interesting fiction, nor are athiests\nexcluded from it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The last point is certainly true; the first has some truth to it -- but,\nreally, in terms of narrative (and we are creatures of our narrativity),\nintentional actions are far more interesting than agentless actions.\n\nOne of the most impressive narrative tours-de-forces I have ever\nread was _Fire_, by George R. Stewart (author of the SF classic\n_Earth Abides_), which took a firestorm as its more-or-less\nprotagonist, and managed to give it agency without personializing\nit. He did the same thing, less successfully, for a storm in a book\ncalled (of all things) _Storm_." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3447.67.142.130.12.1176486027.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-13T17:40:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chinese Curses And Happiness", "in_reply_to": "<875716.40211.qm@web32412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This makes me think of the Chinese curse: \"May you\nlive in interesting times.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The full curse is 'May you live in interesting times and come to the\nattention of influential people.'\n\nThe Stoic philosophy (and also Buddhism, coincidentally or not) both teach\nhow to be happy no matter how interesting your times or personal\nsituation.\n\nBut I digress.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<69467.37545.qm@web63905.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Recursive Loop", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T18:08:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370704131038r5941fe99rd563b503c17565e7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Greetings:\n\n\"One of the most impressive narrative tours-de-forces I have ever\nread was _Fire_, by George R. Stewart (author of the SF classic\n_Earth Abides_),\"\n\nEarth Abides was excellent. I'll have to look up Fire. Have you read his non-fiction book on\nPickett's Charge? Excellent as well.\n\nFPK3" } ] }, { "message_id": "<38319.62844.qm@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T18:42:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chinese Curses And Happiness", "in_reply_to": "<3447.67.142.130.12.1176486027.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nThe full curse is 'May you live in interesting times\nand come to the\nattention of influential people.'" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah. Thank you, Josh. That's a nasty curse in any\nculture." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Stoic philosophy (and also Buddhism,\ncoincidentally or not) both teach\nhow to be happy no matter how interesting your times\nor personal\nsituation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was under the impression that happiness was\ninconsequential to both philosophies. Rather they\nteach one to endure such times and situations with\nequanimity.\n\nBut I digress as well.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<537975.56599.qm@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T18:46:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370704131038r5941fe99rd563b503c17565e7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn 4/13/07, don doggett \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Stuff happened\" is almost everything. \"Someone\nmade\nstuff happen\" is usually laid over it by people\ntrying\nto make sense of that \"stuff\". Christians hardly\nhave\na lock on interesting fiction, nor are athiests\nexcluded from it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The last point is certainly true; the first has some\ntruth to it -- but,\nreally, in terms of narrative (and we are creatures\nof our narrativity),\nintentional actions are far more interesting than\nagentless actions.\n\nOne of the most impressive narrative tours-de-forces\nI have ever\nread was _Fire_, by George R. Stewart (author of the\nSF classic\n_Earth Abides_), which took a firestorm as its\nmore-or-less\nprotagonist, and managed to give it agency without\npersonializing\nit. He did the same thing, less successfully, for a\nstorm in a book\ncalled (of all things) _Storm_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "After I sent that letter, it occured to me that all\nfiction by nature is theistic, since the writer is\nnothing if not God over the page. Perhaps even\npolytheistic if there are editors involved. I have a\ncopy of Earth Abides, but somehow it has fallen into\nmy backlog and I don't know when I'll get to it.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15938.67.142.130.11.1176490747.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-13T18:59:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chinese Curses And Happiness", "in_reply_to": "<38319.62844.qm@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The full curse is 'May you live in interesting times\nand come to the attention of influential people.'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah. Thank you, Josh. That's a nasty curse in any\nculture." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Stoic philosophy (and also Buddhism,\ncoincidentally or not) both teach how to\nbe happy no matter how interesting your times\nor personal situation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was under the impression that happiness was\ninconsequential to both philosophies. Rather they\nteach one to endure such times and situations with\nequanimity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stoicism definitely claims to teach happiness, and also freedom.\n\nBuddhism, well, the Dalai Lama has gone on record as saying that the goal\nof Buddhism is to be happy. I suppose I shall take his word for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I digress as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At the risk of an overwhelming chorus of 'Amens', I pray: May the hour of\nmy silence return!\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nBut not too soon, please God.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370704131306w7fbe8475o381adfed1c978643@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T20:06:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<69467.37545.qm@web63905.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/13/07, Recursive Loop wrote:\nEarth Abides was excellent. I'll have to look up Fire. Have you read his non-fiction book on\nPickett's Charge? Excellent as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you sure this is the same George Stewart? He wasn't a historian, but\nan English prof. at CalBerkeley.\n\n(Goes and looks up Stewart in Wikipedia.)\n\nWow, it *was* the same guy. He wrote a *lot* of stuff I didnt' know\nabout.\n\nAnd (I didn't know this either):\n\n His 1941 novel Storm, featuring as its protagonist a Pacific\n storm called \"Maria,\" prompted the National Weather Service to\n use personal names to designate storms and inspired Alan Jay\n Lerner and Frederick Loewe to write the song \"They Call the\n Wind Maria\" for their 1951 musical Paint Your Wagon. Storm\n was dramatized as A Storm Called Maria on a 1959 episode\n of ABC's Disneyland.\n\nKewl..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T23:09:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<461FA2C5.1020608@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "stilskin skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org snarked:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Not his fault, I suppose, that atheism is so much\nless interesting than Christianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To Christians, perhaps." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I sort of agree with him. But then, I've always prefered fantasy\nto realistic literature.\n\n\n // Jesper" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Interesting\" is not a positive value judgment, and I suspect he didn't \nintend it as one.\n\nI sort of disagree, however, on Chestertonian grounds. Christians explain \nthe universe in terms of only a few simple beliefs. Atheists, on the other \nhand, have to believe in a much wider and more bewildering array of \ndifferent things.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nMortgage rates near historic lows. Refinance $200,000 loan for as low as \n$771/month* \nhttps://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product\u00100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f8&disc=y&versh9&s@56&pQ17" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10953.67.142.130.30.1176506079.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-13T23:14:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "stilskin skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "brunians at brunians.org snarked:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Not his fault, I suppose, that atheism is so much\nless interesting than Christianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "To Christians, perhaps." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I sort of agree with him. But then, I've always prefered fantasy\nto realistic literature." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Interesting\" is not a positive value judgment, and I suspect he didn't\nintend it as one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was intended positively, though.\n\nI meant, basically, that there are very few changes to be wrung upon the\ntheme of atheism. 'The world's all random like, things happen for no\nreason, oh it's scary and dark, poor me'.\n\nIn contrast to Christianity, which as a relationship between real, living\nbeings contains infinite possibilities.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-13T23:15:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chinese Curses And Happiness", "in_reply_to": "<38319.62844.qm@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The full curse is 'May you live in interesting times\nand come to the\nattention of influential people.'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah. Thank you, Josh. That's a nasty curse in any\nculture." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Stoic philosophy (and also Buddhism,\ncoincidentally or not) both teach\nhow to be happy no matter how interesting your times\nor personal\nsituation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was under the impression that happiness was\ninconsequential to both philosophies. Rather they\nteach one to endure such times and situations with\nequanimity.\n\nBut I digress as well.\n\nDon" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It depends, I guess. The good life that Stoics (and the ancients in general) \nwere after isn't exactly equivalent to our concept of \"happiness\", but \nthat's probably about the closest fit you're going to get. For a Stoic it's \nok to be happy, just don't let yourself get carried away with it.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nGet a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office \nLive! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15891.67.142.130.12.1176512558.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-14T01:02:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chinese Curses And Happiness", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It depends, I guess. The good life that Stoics (and the ancients in\ngeneral) were after isn't exactly equivalent to our concept of \"happiness\",\nbut that's probably about the closest fit you're going to get. For a Stoic\nit's ok to be happy," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As long as you are happy about the right things, that is, because the\nthings under your control (will, desire, aversion, movement towards and\naway from an object) conform to virtue, that you do not desire what does\nnot belong to you.\n\nIf you are happy because you are having pleasant appearances (phantasmata,\nas they are called: wealth, health a pleasant living situation, a good\njob), you are not truly happy, because the things upon which your\nhappiness depends are subject to others (they are not the things under\nyour control, as described above)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " just don't let yourself get carried away with it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not possible, as long as (again) you are happy in the right way.\n\nI'm still learning this stuff. It is just recently, for instance, that I\nbegin to understand what an 'appearance' is. I am afraid that I am not\nexplaining it very well. Here is a link to a short file which epitomizes\nthe Stoic ethic: http://san.beck.org/Epictetus.html. Flavius Arrian, he\nauthor of the 'Anabasis Alexandri' was a student of Epictetus and also\nknew shorthand. So we actually have quite a bit of Epictetus' teaching,\nalthough he never wrote anything down himself. At some point, Arrian made\nthis epitome, with the object that it be bound in a little pocket book\nthat people could carry around with them.\n\nIncidentally, Epictetus taught in Koine Greek, and is in fact one of our\ntwo major souces for this dialect of Greek, the other being the New\nTestament, about that other teacher from around that time who didn't write\nanything down.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1783.67.142.130.12.1176512561.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-14T01:02:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chinese Curses And Happiness", "in_reply_to": "<15891.67.142.130.12.1176512558.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It depends, I guess. The good life that Stoics (and the ancients in\ngeneral) were after isn't exactly equivalent to our concept of \"happiness\",\nbut that's probably about the closest fit you're going to get. For a Stoic\nit's ok to be happy," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As long as you are happy about the right things, that is, because the\nthings under your control (will, desire, aversion, movement towards and\naway from an object) conform to virtue, that you do not desire what does\nnot belong to you.\n\nIf you are happy because you are having pleasant appearances (phantasmata,\nas they are called: wealth, health a pleasant living situation, a good\njob), you are not truly happy, because the things upon which your\nhappiness depends are subject to others (they are not the things under\nyour control, as described above)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " just don't let yourself get carried away with it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not possible, as long as (again) you are happy in the right way.\n\nI'm still learning this stuff. It is just recently, for instance, that I\nbegin to understand what an 'appearance' is. I am afraid that I am not\nexplaining it very well. Here is a link to a short file which epitomizes\nthe Stoic ethic: http://san.beck.org/Epictetus.html. Flavius Arrian, he\nauthor of the 'Anabasis Alexandri' was a student of Epictetus and also\nknew shorthand. So we actually have quite a bit of Epictetus' teaching,\nalthough he never wrote anything down himself. At some point, Arrian made\nthis epitome, with the object that it be bound in a little pocket book\nthat people could carry around with them.\n\nIncidentally, Epictetus taught in Koine Greek, and is in fact one of our\ntwo major souces for this dialect of Greek, the other being the New\nTestament, about that other teacher from around that time who didn't write\nanything down.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93605.27346.qm@web32407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-14T02:38:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) priorities", "in_reply_to": "<1783.67.142.130.12.1176512561.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well everyone, it's been a fun few days discussing everything but Wolfe, but I'm afraid I have to be on my way. Y'see I just got my hands on a copy of The Children of Hurin and I plan to be occupied for a little while. I'll be back later to let you know how it was.\n \n regards\n \n Don\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<305288.81324.qm@web63911.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Recursive Loop", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-14T11:07:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) priorities", "in_reply_to": "<93605.27346.qm@web32407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dang. How the heck? I've had one on order for months and months and I haven't gotten notification\nof shipping yet?\n\nEnjoy. Hope it has been worth the wait of several decades!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Batrinque at aol.com", "address": "batrinque at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-04-14T11:12:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) priorities", "in_reply_to": "<305288.81324.qm@web63911.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 4/14/2007 7:07:58 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, \nrecursive_loop at yahoo.com writes:\n\nDang. How the heck? I've had one on order for months and months and I \nhaven't gotten notification\nof shipping yet?\n\n\n\nI believe that the Tolkien book is scheduled for an official release date of \nApril 17. So, I would expect Amazon and other online services to begin \nshipping in the next few days.\n \n \nBruce Trinque\nAmston, CT" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2007-04-14T16:37:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<10953.67.142.130.30.1176506079.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 13, 2007, at 6:14 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI meant, basically, that there are very few changes to be wrung \nupon the\ntheme of atheism. 'The world's all random like, things happen for no\nreason, oh it's scary and dark, poor me'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's odd.\n\nI generally regard the scientific method as the act of trying to make \nsense out of the darkness and chaos without an appeal to the \nsupernatural. I don't think this is particularly in conflict with \natheism.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10704140940v4c5c9d5ct32cf374ac79f23c6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-14T16:40:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) priorities", "in_reply_to": "<93605.27346.qm@web32407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nice. My copy, alas, won't be here for a few more days. Also, I've got\npapers and exams at this point of the year. Once they're done though, I'm\nstarting in on Children of Hurin. Unless I re-read The Lord of the Rings\nfirst. In any case, enjoy the book. By all accounts, it should be great. I'm\nsure Wolfe would approve.\n\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/13/07, don doggett wrote:\n\nWell everyone, it's been a fun few days discussing everything but Wolfe,\nbut I'm afraid I have to be on my way. Y'see I just got my hands on a copy\nof The Children of Hurin and I plan to be occupied for a little while. I'll\nbe back later to let you know how it was.\n\nregards\n\nDon\n\n------------------------------\nAhhh...imagining that irresistible \"new car\" smell?\nCheck out new cars at Yahoo! Autos.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9a33123d0704141019y6ce4544cua0f49221b44d720b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2007-04-14T17:19:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI meant, basically, that there are very few changes to be wrung upon the\ntheme of atheism. 'The world's all random like, things happen for no\nreason, oh it's scary and dark, poor me'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, so *that's* the theme of atheism. Silly me, I've been doing it\nwrong all these years." } ] }, { "message_id": "<87tzvikded.fsf@elan.rh.rit.edu>", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-14T18:40:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "<537975.56599.qm@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "don doggett writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 4/13/07, don doggett \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"Stuff happened\" is almost everything. \"Someone\nmade\nstuff happen\" is usually laid over it by people\ntrying\nto make sense of that \"stuff\". Christians hardly\nhave\na lock on interesting fiction, nor are athiests\nexcluded from it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The last point is certainly true; the first has some\ntruth to it -- but,\nreally, in terms of narrative (and we are creatures\nof our narrativity),\nintentional actions are far more interesting than\nagentless actions.\n\nOne of the most impressive narrative tours-de-forces\nI have ever\nread was _Fire_, by George R. Stewart (author of the\nSF classic\n_Earth Abides_), which took a firestorm as its\nmore-or-less\nprotagonist, and managed to give it agency without\npersonializing\nit. He did the same thing, less successfully, for a\nstorm in a book\ncalled (of all things) _Storm_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "After I sent that letter, it occured to me that all\nfiction by nature is theistic, since the writer is\nnothing if not God over the page. Perhaps even\npolytheistic if there are editors involved. I have a\ncopy of Earth Abides, but somehow it has fallen into\nmy backlog and I don't know when I'll get to it.\n\nDon" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But what about aleatory literature? \nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleatory#Literature\n\nOr does God really play dice? " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Gwern\nInquiring minds want to know." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8310.67.142.130.35.1176582301.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-14T20:25:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vonnegut (1922-2007)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 13, 2007, at 6:14 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I meant, basically, that there are very few changes to be wrung\nupon the theme of atheism. 'The world's all random like, things\nhappen for no reason, oh it's scary and dark, poor me'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's odd." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I generally regard the scientific method as the act of trying to make\nsense out of the darkness and chaos without an appeal to the\nsupernatural. I don't think this is particularly in conflict with\natheism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What, you mean we disagree? Our views of the World are different? Even our\nbasic definition of terms may differ?\n\nShocking.\n\nHow did that happen?\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<891433.91997.qm@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-14T23:50:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) priorities", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I work in a bookstore that lets us check out books. We got ours yesterday but can't sell them till tuesday. Low pay, many perks. I'm at work now, but I'll say it was totally worth the wait. I'm halfway through and expect to finish it by tomorrow.\n\ncheers\n\nDon\n\nBatrinque at aol.com wrote: In a message dated 4/14/2007 7:07:58 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, recursive_loop at yahoo.com writes:\n Dang. How the heck? I've had one on order for months and months and I haven't gotten notification\nof shipping yet?\n\n \n I believe that the Tolkien book is scheduled for an official release date of April 17. So, I would expect Amazon and other online services to begin shipping in the next few days.\n \n \n Bruce Trinque\nAmston, CT\n\n\n\n\n---------------------------------\nSee what's free at AOL.com. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-04-15T07:50:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) priorities", "in_reply_to": "<891433.91997.qm@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "don doggett writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I work in a bookstore that lets us check out books. We got ours yesterday but can't sell them till tuesday. Low pay, many perks. I'm at work now, but I'll say it was totally worth the wait. I'm halfway through and expect to finish it by tomorrow. \n\ncheers \n\nDon " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nEnvyenvyenvy \n\n - hartshorn (twiddling thums waiting for Amazon) \n\n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-15T12:52:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chinese Curses And Happiness", "in_reply_to": "<15891.67.142.130.12.1176512558.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It depends, I guess. The good life that Stoics (and the ancients in\ngeneral) were after isn't exactly equivalent to our concept of \n\"happiness\",\nbut that's probably about the closest fit you're going to get. For a \nStoic\nit's ok to be happy," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As long as you are happy about the right things, that is, because the\nthings under your control (will, desire, aversion, movement towards and\naway from an object) conform to virtue, that you do not desire what does\nnot belong to you.\n\nHmm. I apologize, but it's been my experience that the things described \nhere are often least under our control, anyone else? Will--I've spent my \nentire life attempting to discipline this unruly and often lazy aspect of my \nown self. It definitely aint under my control, nor, when dug into, under a \npreponderance of most people's is their own.\n\nNot being 17 anymore, I can occasionally control my desire; however the bulk \nhere would be a great deal less if my my desire for food were also a great \ndeal less, for example.\n\nAversion? While there are definitely people who grow used to working in a \nsulfur mine, I have never met anyone who could choose to not be adverse to \ndoing so. The other virtues listed appear to be variations on the base \ntheme.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nThe average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. \nhttp://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6425.67.142.130.12.1176650313.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-15T15:18:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chinese Curses And Happiness", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It depends, I guess. The good life that Stoics (and the ancients in\ngeneral) were after isn't exactly equivalent to our concept of\n\"happiness\",\nbut that's probably about the closest fit you're going to get. For a\nStoic it's ok to be happy," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As long as you are happy about the right things, that is, because the\nthings under your control (will, desire, aversion, movement towards and\naway from an object) conform to virtue, that you do not desire what does\nnot belong to you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmm. I apologize, but it's been my experience that the things described\nhere are often least under our control, anyone else?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It takes work. I have had a fair amount of success. I still fall short often.\n\nI strongly apologize if my faulty understanding of this matter leads me to\ncommunicate inaccurately, and encourage anyone with real interest to check\nout the link below, and the (really large amount) of Epictetus' lectures\nwhich have survived.\n\nBut it is worth doing. These, our own actions, are the only things it is\n*possible* to control.\n\nAlso, the terminology is peculiar, or used in a peculiar way. It has taken\nme a while to understand, and perhaps I do not completely understand even\nnow (and I work on this stuff every day). I don't remember if I posted\nthis here, but this is a good place to start:\nhttp://san.beck.org/Epictetus.html\n\nThis translation is different, slightly, then the one I am using (in\nhardcover). At some point I will do a translation, which will be better\nthan any of the three I have been using.\n\n___\nOf existing things some are in our power,\nothers not in our power.\nIn our power are conception, effort, desire, aversion\nand in a word whatever are our actions;\nbut not in our power are the body, property, reputation,\nrulers and in a word whatever are not our actions.\n\nAlso things in our power are by nature\nfree, unhindered, unimpeded,\nbut things not in our power are\nweak, slavish, hindered, belonging to others.\n\nSo remember, that if\nwhat is by nature slavish you think free\nand what is others' your own,\nyou will be hindered, you will mourn, you will be disturbed,\nand you will blame both gods and humans,\nbut if you think only yours is yours,\nand another's, just as it is, another's,\nno one will ever compel you, no one will hinder you,\nyou will not blame anyone, nor accuse someone,\nnot one thing will you do unwilling,\nno one will harm you, you will have no enemy,\nfor you will suffer no harm from anyone.\n---\n\n\nOr perhaps we are all merely wrong and deluded, and you are correct, and\nit is not possible to control one's own actions. I suppose that is\npossible. I have certainly been wrong in the past.\n\nAgainst this, I am not the only person who has achieved some success at\nthis work, or found it valuable.\n\nOn the third hand, there are people (epicureans generally, some others)\nwho just think that we are Wrong with a capital W (and stoics\ntraditionally return the favor). There is certainly room for several\nopinions in this discourse.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-15T20:29:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chinese Curses And Happiness", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " > It depends, I guess. The good life that Stoics (and the ancients in\n > general) were after isn't exactly equivalent to our concept of\n\"happiness\",\n > but that's probably about the closest fit you're going to get. For a\nStoic\n > it's ok to be happy,\n\nAs long as you are happy about the right things, that is, because the\nthings under your control (will, desire, aversion, movement towards and\naway from an object) conform to virtue, that you do not desire what does\nnot belong to you.\n\nHmm. I apologize, but it's been my experience that the things described\nhere are often least under our control, anyone else? Will--I've spent my\nentire life attempting to discipline this unruly and often lazy aspect of \nmy\nown self. It definitely aint under my control, nor, when dug into, under a\npreponderance of most people's is their own.\n\nNot being 17 anymore, I can occasionally control my desire; however the \nbulk\nhere would be a great deal less if my my desire for food were also a great\ndeal less, for example.\n\nAversion? While there are definitely people who grow used to working in a\nsulfur mine, I have never met anyone who could choose to not be adverse to\ndoing so. The other virtues listed appear to be variations on the base\ntheme." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It sounds like you may be a hopeless case for the stoics :P\n\nThe question is, do you act with rational deliberation? Whether or not a \nstranger insults you, for example, is not under your control. What *is* \nunder your control is how you react to it, and what you do as a result. If \nyou don't have control over that, then you don't have control over anything.\n\nBut generally speaking I have little patience for any point of view that \nsays we're sort of chemical robots, acting out inclinations that are \npre-coded and beyond our control. Whether or not that might be true on one \nlevel is beside the point; at the rational level, this just serves as an \nexcuse to avoid critical reflection and write off any responsibility for the \nway one is.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nGet a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office \nLive! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13497.67.142.130.48.1176674498.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-15T22:01:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chinese Curses And Happiness", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " For a\nStoic it's ok to be happy," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As long as you are happy about the right things, that is, because the\nthings under your control (will, desire, aversion, movement towards and\naway from an object) conform to virtue, that you do not desire what does\nnot belong to you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hmm. I apologize, but it's been my experience that the things described\nhere are often least under our control, anyone else? Will--I've spent my\nentire life attempting to discipline this unruly and often lazy aspect of\nmy own self. It definitely aint under my control, nor, when dug into,\nunder a preponderance of most people's is their own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not being 17 anymore, I can occasionally control my desire; however the\nbulk here would be a great deal less if my my desire for food were also a\ngreat deal less, for example." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Aversion? While there are definitely people who grow used to working in\na sulfur mine, I have never met anyone who could choose to not be adverse\nto doing so. The other virtues listed appear to be variations on the\nbase theme." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It sounds like you may be a hopeless case for the stoics :P" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The question is, do you act with rational deliberation? Whether or not a\nstranger insults you, for example, is not under your control. What *is*\nunder your control is how you react to it, and what you do as a result. If\nyou don't have control over that, then you don't have control over\nanything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But generally speaking I have little patience for any point of view that\nsays we're sort of chemical robots, acting out inclinations that are\npre-coded and beyond our control. Whether or not that might be true on one\nlevel is beside the point; at the rational level, this just serves as an\nexcuse to avoid critical reflection and write off any responsibility for\nthe way one is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, the Stoics explicitly state that the body is not one of the things\nunder our control. Also, that this stuff has to be learned. It is not\nnecessarily easy (though it gets easier with practice, like everything\nelse) So the stimulus for food or sex or whatever arises within the body.\nIt is still your choice whether or not you accede to it.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] } ] }