{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4818", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4818, "subject": "ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "messages": 26, "voices": 10, "first": "2007-04-16T07:24:37+00:00", "last": "2007-04-17T15:34:45+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<786216.63953.qm@web32407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-16T07:24:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are no spoilers here, but then I imagine most of\nyou are familiar with the Tale of the Children of\nHurin anyway. Recently, I acquired two beautiful\nleather bound volumes of the Iliad and the Odyssey, \nboth translated by Robert Fitzgerald (who I prefer).\nI've read them both, the Iliad more than twice. I\nbought Seamus Heaney's translation of Beowulf when it\nfirst came out in hardcover, several years ago, and I\nread Stephen Mitchell's translation of Gilgamesh even\nbefore it was released. I also bought, and loved, WS\nMerwin's translation of Sir Gawain and the Green\nKnight. I don't mention this to brag, but only to say\nthat Tolkien's Children of Hurin is of a piece with\nall of these works. It is not fantasy, except in the\nsense that the fantasy genre has often been a lesser\n(though the impulse is understandable) attempt to\nemulate his work. And of all the aforementioned epics,\nonly the Iliad manages to stir me more, though Hector\nis the only man in Homer's tale who could perhaps earn\nhis way into the ranks of the elf-friends. If this is\nunmitigated gushing, so be it, but I love Tolkien's\nvision of Middle Earth, and especially of the Elder\nDays, and I'm grateful to be able to visit it again\nafter so many years. The text itself is around 220\npages and is constructed solely of JRR Tolkien's\nwords, edited together so seemlessly by his son that\none would never know it was taken from several\nmanuscripts. I can only hope that the same treatment\nwill be given to the Tale of Beren and Luthien and\nalso to The Fall of Gondolin. The Children of Hurin is\nsuperb and tragic.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<46234094.9090205@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jesper Svedberg", "address": "jsvedberg at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-16T09:23:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "<786216.63953.qm@web32407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "don doggett skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is not fantasy, except in the\nsense that the fantasy genre has often been a lesser\n(though the impulse is understandable) attempt to\nemulate his work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In what way is it not fantasy? It's set in a world that's different from \nours and is filled with magic and stuff, right? Both the type of \nliterature and the word \"fantasy\" as a label for it existed before \nTolkien, so I'm unsure why his stuff should be something else.\n\n\n // Jesper" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Batrinque at aol.com", "address": "batrinque at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-04-16T10:57:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "<46234094.9090205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In a message dated 4/16/2007 3:25:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, \nkingwukong at yahoo.com writes:\n\nRecently, I acquired two beautiful\nleather bound volumes of the Iliad and the Odyssey, \nboth translated by Robert Fitzgerald (who I prefer).\nI've read them both, the Iliad more than twice. I\nbought Seamus Heaney's translation of Beowulf when it\nfirst came out in hardcover, several years ago, and I\nread Stephen Mitchell's translation of Gilgamesh even\nbefore it was released. \nPersonally, I prefer the Lombardo translations of the Iliad and the Odyssey \nto those by Fitzgerald and Fagles and Mandelbaum (and about a dozen other \nversions I have), but these things are always subjective. I much enjoyed \nHeaney's translation of Beowulf, although I do wish there had been something a \nlittle more of the robust flavor of the mead hall in it, but I would be \nhard-pressed to name a translation I would recommend over it to anyone who had not \npreviously read the poem (and definitely to read it as a poem, not prose). And \nI have the highest regard for Mitchell's Gilgamesh.\n\nThe Children of Hurin is\nsuperb and tragic.\n\n\nI am happy to see your highly favorable mini-review; I have the book on \npre-order and anxiously await its delivery. \n\nBruce Trinque\nAmston, CT" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9035.67.142.130.13.1176722623.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-16T11:23:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "<46234094.9090205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "don doggett skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is not fantasy, except in the\nsense that the fantasy genre has often been a lesser\n(though the impulse is understandable) attempt to\nemulate his work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In what way is it not fantasy? It's set in a world that's different from\nours and is filled with magic and stuff, right? Both the type of\nliterature and the word \"fantasy\" as a label for it existed before\nTolkien, so I'm unsure why his stuff should be something else." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe that what Don is saying is that there are no fantastic elements\nin the story, that no incident in the story could not happen in the World\nthat we know.\n\nThat's what I would mean if I said this, anyway.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Batrinque at aol.com", "address": "batrinque at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-04-16T12:13:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "<9035.67.142.130.13.1176722623.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 4/16/2007 6:58:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, \nBatrinque at aol.com writes:\n\nI much enjoyed Heaney's translation of Beowulf, although I do wish there had \nbeen something a little more of the robust flavor of the mead hall in it, \nbut I would be hard-pressed to name a translation I would recommend over it to \nanyone who had not previously read the poem (and definitely to read it as a \npoem, not prose)\n\n\nSaying this left open the question of what I would recommend as a second \ntranslation of Beowulf, to follow after Heaney's to perhaps impart something \nmore of that robust or raw mead hall flavor. There are so many possible \nchoices. Maybe the Sullivan and Murphy translation, or that by Lehmann, or that by \nRebsamen ... And it is fun to simply listen to a reading of the poem in the \noriginal language, just to hear the alliteration and insistent rhythm.\n \nSpeaking of translations, I would think that Wolfe's works -- especially the \nBook of the New Sun -- would be a formidable challenge to translate well. \n\nBruce Trinque\nAmston, CT" } ] }, { "message_id": "<46236BC7.2010408@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jesper Svedberg", "address": "jsvedberg at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-16T12:27:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "<9035.67.142.130.13.1176722623.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "brunians at brunians.org skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe that what Don is saying is that there are no fantastic elements\nin the story, that no incident in the story could not happen in the World\nthat we know.\n\nThat's what I would mean if I said this, anyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I haven't read the book, but from what I'v read of it there seems \nto be elves, evil overlords, dragons and orcs in it, so I don't think \nthat's what he meant.\n\n\n // Jesper" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Batrinque at aol.com", "address": "batrinque at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-04-16T12:35:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "<46236BC7.2010408@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 4/16/2007 8:28:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, \njsvedberg at gmail.com writes:\n\nbrunians at brunians.org skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe that what Don is saying is that there are no fantastic elements\nin the story, that no incident in the story could not happen in the World\nthat we know.\n\nThat's what I would mean if I said this, anyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I haven't read the book, but from what I'v read of it there seems \nto be elves, evil overlords, dragons and orcs in it, so I don't think \nthat's what he meant.\n\n\n\n\n\nWell, I suppose that all depends on one's own \"World that we know.\" \nAlthough I personally don't know any elves, I'm pretty sure that I encounter orcs \nand evil overlords and occasionally dragons.\n \n \nBruce Trinque\nAmston, CT" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12947.67.142.130.28.1176733629.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-16T14:27:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "<46236BC7.2010408@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I believe that what Don is saying is that there are no fantastic\nelements in the story, that no incident in the story could not\nhappen in the World that we know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's what I would mean if I said this, anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I haven't read the book, but from what I'v read of it there seems\nto be elves, evil overlords, dragons and orcs in it, so I don't think\nthat's what he meant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, no, it wouldn't be, and I'd have to say I'm as puzzled as you are.\n\nPerhaps Don shall enlighten us at some point.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370704160911i2f60f5d5mb45829f89718369@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-16T16:11:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "<12947.67.142.130.28.1176733629.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 4/16/07, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nWell, I haven't read the book, but from what I'v read of it there seems\nto be elves, evil overlords, dragons and orcs in it, so I don't think\nthat's what he meant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, no, it wouldn't be, and I'd have to say I'm as puzzled as you are.\n\nPerhaps Don shall enlighten us at some point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would make a guess (and I'm fairly confident of it, though I too hope\nDon will step forth and say in his own words what he meant) that the\nestimable Mr Doggett was suggesting that, though it contains elements\nof the fantastic, Tolkien's work was not created in the context of the\ncommercial genre of \"fantasy,\" as we know it today, and in fact could\nnot be because that commercial genre came to be in response to JRRT's\nwork.\n\nI agree that it is not a part of that genre; however, I would say that it\nwas only *partially* in response to Tolkien's work that \"fantasy\" as a\ncommercial category came into being. It certainly existed in the pulp\nmagazines before the publication of _The Lord of the Rings_ -- the\nfirst issue of _The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction_, a/k/a\n_F&SF_, was published (under the original title, _The Magazine of\nFantasy_) well before the publication of _LotR_. Tolkienesque or\n\"high\" fantasy is only a part of the overall genre, which also includes\nsuch subgenres as swords'n'sorcery, urban/contemporary fantasy,\ndark fantasy (horror), and \"the weird\" -- all of which existed in some\nforms prior to the publication of _The Hobbit_, let alone _LotR_.\n\nNonetheless, the success of _LotR_ in the '60s (ten years after\npublication), along with the _Conan_ boom of the early '70s, opened\nthe way for modern fantasy. _LotR_ begat Lin Carter's \"Ballantine\nAdult Fantasy\" series, which begat the Del Rey line, which published\nthe best-selling _Sword of Shannara_ and _Chronicles of Thomas\nCovenant the Unbeliever_; between these two and the publication of\nthe _Silmarillion_, the existence of fantasy as a significant publishing\ncategory from then on was assured." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." } ] }, { "message_id": "<428900.56593.qm@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-16T19:35:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370704160911i2f60f5d5mb45829f89718369@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nI would make a guess (and I'm fairly confident of\nit, though I too hope\nDon will step forth and say in his own words what he\nmeant) that the\nestimable Mr Doggett was suggesting that, though it\ncontains elements\nof the fantastic, Tolkien's work was not created in\nthe context of the\ncommercial genre of \"fantasy,\" as we know it today," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks Dan'l! This is more or less exactly what I\nmeant, especially regarding the Children of Hurin, and\nthe tales in the Silmarillion. They are written in the\ntradition of myth and epic romance - Tolkien was\nplaying a different game, so to speak." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and in fact could\nnot be because that commercial genre came to be in\nresponse to JRRT's\nwork." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Partly, yes, but I'm also aware of other contributing\nfactors to the fantasy genre. I guess you could say I\ngot caught up in making the review flow and\ngeneralized things a bit. But thank you all for your\ninterest in my opinion, it's quite flattering.\n(blushes)\n\nDon " } ] }, { "message_id": "<102437.37710.qm@web32415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-16T19:40:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- Batrinque at aol.com wrote:\n\n And " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have the highest regard for Mitchell's Gilgamesh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He signed my advance copy when he was at our store\nrecently. He's a nice guy and a great writer, but a\nbit of a boring speaker. fwiw\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4623E50E.1020105@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jesper Svedberg", "address": "jsvedberg at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-16T21:05:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "<428900.56593.qm@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "don doggett skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I would make a guess (and I'm fairly confident of\nit, though I too hope\nDon will step forth and say in his own words what he\nmeant) that the\nestimable Mr Doggett was suggesting that, though it\ncontains elements\nof the fantastic, Tolkien's work was not created in\nthe context of the\ncommercial genre of \"fantasy,\" as we know it today," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks Dan'l! This is more or less exactly what I\nmeant, especially regarding the Children of Hurin, and\nthe tales in the Silmarillion. They are written in the\ntradition of myth and epic romance - Tolkien was\nplaying a different game, so to speak." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It strikes me as very weird to define the book after what it tries to be \nrather than what it is. The fact is that when you look at what kind of \nstory it is, it is indistinguishable from much modern fantasy. It's a \nsecondary world story with magical or fantastical elements that draws \nits estetical inspiration from myth and epics, like most modern epic \nfantasy of quality. The fact that there are some hideously unoriginal \nrole playing stories doesn't change this fact.\n\nTolkien did not invent this tradition. Before him there were writers \nlike William Morris, Lord Dunsany and E. R. Eddison who did similar \nthings and just because the tradition hadn't spawned widely marketable \ngenre until after Tolkien doesn't make his stuff much different from \nwhat came later.\n\n\n // Jesper" } ] }, { "message_id": "<603890.47880.qm@web54404.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nathan Spears", "address": "spearofsolomon at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-16T21:30:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "<4623E50E.1020105@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It strikes me as very weird to define the book after what it tries to be \nrather than what it is. The fact is that when you look at what kind of \nstory it is, it is indistinguishable from much modern fantasy. It's a \nsecondary world story with magical or fantastical elements that draws \nits estetical inspiration from myth and epics, like most modern epic \nfantasy of quality. The fact that there are some hideously unoriginal \nrole playing stories doesn't change this fact." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the distinction is a matter of foundation - the bedrock for Tolkien's creation was the ancient Finnish myth, Arthur, etc. The bedrock for much of what is being referred to as \"the modern fantasy genre,\" especially \"high fantasy,\" is Tolkien. Even those writers who don't claim him as a primary influence would not have had the same atmosphere in which to peddle their trade without Tolkien having changed the publishing landscape. The use of the phrase \"modern epic fantasy of quality\" is also dubious." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tolkien did not invent this tradition. Before him there were writers \nlike William Morris, Lord Dunsany and E. R. Eddison who did similar \nthings and just because the tradition hadn't spawned widely marketable \ngenre until after Tolkien doesn't make his stuff much different from \nwhat came later." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Legions of Tolkien fans cry foul! Tolkien spent decades working on the source material which LotR sprang from, and he was much more intimately acquainted with the aforementioned myths and epics than many of his followers. On the whole I think that this resulting in a work which approaches the quality and power of his sources better than most (all) subsequent work in the \"modern fantasy genre.\" So the difference is not necessarily in the individual elements of quests, elves, wizards, strange creatures, but in the overall quality of the work which requires acknowledgment as a thing apart." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-16T21:46:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "<4623E50E.1020105@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It strikes me as very weird to define the book after what it tries to be\nrather than what it is. The fact is that when you look at what kind of\nstory it is, it is indistinguishable from much modern fantasy. It's a\nsecondary world story with magical or fantastical elements that draws\nits estetical inspiration from myth and epics, like most modern epic\nfantasy of quality. The fact that there are some hideously unoriginal\nrole playing stories doesn't change this fact." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the issue of genre labels, I'm not sure I agree with this. Putting,\nsay, \"The Sword of Shanarah\" in the bin with the works of William\nMorris is to me like labeling the music of the Ramones \"Doo-Wop\". Yes,\nthe Ramones show self-evident influence from 50s music; in fact, the\nintention of the whole New Wave movement is a return to simple cords\nand the roots of Rock&Roll. Undoubtably, it is useful to your local\nrecord store to classify the Rolling Stones, Devo, and Lionel Richie\nin the same bin labeled \"Rock\", but it never helped me to organize my\nrecord collection (not that I own any Lionel Richie albums).\n\nTolkien's works occupy a middle ground between Morris and Brooks in\nthat he was writing as a fan of Morris, and Brooks was rewriting\nTolkien. Tolkien is the inventor of Adult Fantasy as we understand it\ntoday. \"The Simarillion\" of the Morris's Mythopoetic genre. \"The Lord\nof the Rings\" is the new animal that fills bookstores now.\n\nThe old Mythopoetic genre is as much the grandparent of modern horror\n(e.g. Lovecraft, Machen and Stephen King) as it is of modern Fantasy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tolkien did not invent this tradition. Before him there were writers\nlike William Morris, Lord Dunsany and E. R. Eddison who did similar\nthings and just because the tradition hadn't spawned widely marketable\ngenre until after Tolkien doesn't make his stuff much different from\nwhat came later." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is like saying Ellery Queen novels are not much different from\nEdgar Allen Poe's novels and that the divide that is Sir Arthur Conan\nDoyle is just an over-sized landmark in the Mystery genre." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4623F134.7040306@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jesper Svedberg", "address": "jsvedberg at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-16T21:57:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "<603890.47880.qm@web54404.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nathan Spears skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the distinction is a matter of foundation - the bedrock for Tolkien's creation was the ancient Finnish myth, Arthur, etc. The bedrock for much of what is being referred to as \"the modern fantasy genre,\" especially \"high fantasy,\" is Tolkien. Even those writers who don't claim him as a primary influence would not have had the same atmosphere in which to peddle their trade without Tolkien having changed the publishing landscape. The use of the phrase \"modern epic fantasy of quality\" is also dubious." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So what? The fantasy tradition existed before Tolkien. It is undeniable \nthat he has made a bigger impression on it than any other writer, but \nthe types of stories he wrote are very similar in structure to what \nWilliam Morris wrote before him and very similar to what Le Guin or Guy \nGavriel Kay wrote after him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Legions of Tolkien fans cry foul! Tolkien spent decades working on the source material which LotR sprang from, and he was much more intimately acquainted with the aforementioned myths and epics than many of his followers. On the whole I think that this resulting in a work which approaches the quality and power of his sources better than most (all) subsequent work in the \"modern fantasy genre.\" So the difference is not necessarily in the individual elements of quests, elves, wizards, strange creatures, but in the overall quality of the work which requires acknowledgment as a thing apart." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Never. He may be better, but that makes his stories GOOD fantasy, not a \ncompletely different genre. I can't believe that I have to defend the \nquality of modern fantasy on a Gene Wolfe mailing list of all places, \nsince Wolfe more than anyone has proved that Tolkien is far from the \nend-all of fantasy literature. This is snobbism at its worst.\n\n\n // Jesper" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200704161758.27589.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-04-16T21:58:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370704160911i2f60f5d5mb45829f89718369@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday 16 April 2007 12:11, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn 4/16/07, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, I haven't read the book, but from what I'v read of it there seems\nto be elves, evil overlords, dragons and orcs in it, so I don't think\nthat's what he meant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, no, it wouldn't be, and I'd have to say I'm as puzzled as you are.\n\nPerhaps Don shall enlighten us at some point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would make a guess (and I'm fairly confident of it, though I too hope\nDon will step forth and say in his own words what he meant) that the\nestimable Mr Doggett was suggesting that, though it contains elements\nof the fantastic, Tolkien's work was not created in the context of the\ncommercial genre of \"fantasy,\" as we know it today, and in fact could\nnot be because that commercial genre came to be in response to JRRT's\nwork." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Created in the context of...\" What, precisely, does that mean?\n\nThe only reason I can think of to make the claim that _Children_ is not \nfantasy is if one considers fantasy an inferior genre, one incapable of \nencompassing \"real\" literature or works of art. It seems to me to be a claim \nthat the book exceeds the base or mundane genre of mere fantasy. Since I \ndon't hold the genre of fantasy in contempt, I don't find it a particularly \nappealing characterization." } ] }, { "message_id": "<200704161820.27818.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-04-16T22:20:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "<4623F134.7040306@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday 16 April 2007 17:57, Jesper Svedberg wrote:\nNever. He may be better, but that makes his stories GOOD fantasy, not a\ncompletely different genre. I can't believe that I have to defend the\nquality of modern fantasy on a Gene Wolfe mailing list of all places,\nsince Wolfe more than anyone has proved that Tolkien is far from the\nend-all of fantasy literature. This is snobbism at its worst." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose that the next time I write something about Shakespeare, I'll have to \ninsist that his works are NOT plays." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4623F7D2.9090800@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jesper Svedberg", "address": "jsvedberg at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-16T22:25:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the issue of genre labels, I'm not sure I agree with this. Putting,\nsay, \"The Sword of Shanarah\" in the bin with the works of William\nMorris is to me like labeling the music of the Ramones \"Doo-Wop\". Yes,\nthe Ramones show self-evident influence from 50s music; in fact, the\nintention of the whole New Wave movement is a return to simple cords\nand the roots of Rock&Roll. Undoubtably, it is useful to your local\nrecord store to classify the Rolling Stones, Devo, and Lionel Richie\nin the same bin labeled \"Rock\", but it never helped me to organize my\nrecord collection (not that I own any Lionel Richie albums).\n\nTolkien's works occupy a middle ground between Morris and Brooks in\nthat he was writing as a fan of Morris, and Brooks was rewriting\nTolkien. Tolkien is the inventor of Adult Fantasy as we understand it\ntoday. \"The Simarillion\" of the Morris's Mythopoetic genre. \"The Lord\nof the Rings\" is the new animal that fills bookstores now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see fantasy literature as a world building genre (that is, where the \nconstruction of the world and its nature is of interest (much like sf)) \nwith magical, mythical or supernatural elements. Morris, Tolkien and \nBrooks easily fit this description, even though there are other \ndifferences between them. Now, I wouldn't have any problems with further \ndeviding Morris and Tolkien into mythopoetic fantasy and Brooks into \nadventure fantasy (or genre fantasy or commercial fantasy), but they are \nstill all undoubtedly fantasy to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The old Mythopoetic genre is as much the grandparent of modern horror\n(e.g. Lovecraft, Machen and Stephen King) as it is of modern Fantasy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One generally tends to make a difference between \"supernatural fiction\" \n(where the supernatural intrudes in normal reality) and fantasy (where \nthe supernatural is the centre of reality). Horror is often supernatural \nfiction, but there's no denying that there's a lot of horror that comes \ncloser to fantasy in nature. But then again, there's also plenty of \nhorror that's very close to science fiction, so I think one can say that \nthere's plenty of interbreeding between these genres." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tolkien did not invent this tradition. Before him there were writers\nlike William Morris, Lord Dunsany and E. R. Eddison who did similar\nthings and just because the tradition hadn't spawned widely marketable\ngenre until after Tolkien doesn't make his stuff much different from\nwhat came later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is like saying Ellery Queen novels are not much different from\nEdgar Allen Poe's novels and that the divide that is Sir Arthur Conan\nDoyle is just an over-sized landmark in the Mystery genre." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, it's like saying that stories about people solving crimes are \nstories about solving crimes, no matter what the development of genre \nlooked like. I'm not saying that there are no differences at all between \nBrooks and Tolkien or Morris, but I find that the generally most \nsensible definition of fantasy easily includes all of these books. \nWhatever differences there might be are only a difference in flavour and \nquality, and not a difference in actual genre identity.\n\n\n // Jesper" } ] }, { "message_id": "<800006.18810.qm@web32407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-17T01:04:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "<4623F7D2.9090800@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi everyone,\n\nThis little argument is great and everything, but It wasn't my intention to denigrate the fantasy genre, only to say that Tolkien is apart from it; but it wasn't even my intention to start a discussion on that. I merely intended to express how much I enjoyed the new book and point out to those who were thinking of getting it that it is much closer in tone to Beowulf and the Iliad than to any fantasy novel that I can think of.\n\nHowever.... \n\nI have read in Tolkien's own words (somewhere in his letters which I will search for when I can) that his purpose in writing the Silmarillion and its attendant tales was to produce an alternate mythological history of England. To give the isles their own Iliad, so to speak. This puts him squarely in the tradition I have previously stated and outside of the modern fantasy genre imo. In this ambition I think he was successful with both the Silmarillion and The Children of Hurin. It is not snobbery to state what the author's clear intent was, and that he was successful at it.\n\nDon\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<7589.67.142.130.11.1176772042.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-17T01:07:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "<800006.18810.qm@web32407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's something else.\n\nTolkien had a profound knowledge of deep history. Instead of arguing it in\na serious academic forum (which, in the mid-20th, would have merely gotten\nhim classified as 'an Atlantis nut') he chose to fictionalize it, and\npresent it in ways which most suited his agenda.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This little argument is great and everything, but It wasn't my intention\nto denigrate the fantasy genre, only to say that Tolkien is apart from it;\nbut it wasn't even my intention to start a discussion on that. I merely\nintended to express how much I enjoyed the new book and point out to those\nwho were thinking of getting it that it is much closer in tone to Beowulf\nand the Iliad than to any fantasy novel that I can think of.\n\nHowever....\n\nI have read in Tolkien's own words (somewhere in his letters which I will\nsearch for when I can) that his purpose in writing the Silmarillion and\nits attendant tales was to produce an alternate mythological history of\nEngland. To give the isles their own Iliad, so to speak. This puts him\nsquarely in the tradition I have previously stated and outside of the\nmodern fantasy genre imo. In this ambition I think he was successful with\nboth the Silmarillion and The Children of Hurin. It is not snobbery to\nstate what the author's clear intent was, and that he was successful at\nit.\n\nDon\n\n\n---------------------------------\nAhhh...imagining that irresistible \"new car\" smell?\n Check outnew cars at Yahoo!\nAutos._______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2007-04-17T02:34:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "<800006.18810.qm@web32407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 16 Apr 2007, don doggett wrote:\nI have read in Tolkien's own words (somewhere in his letters which I \nwill search for when I can) that his purpose in writing the Silmarillion \nand its attendant tales was to produce an alternate mythological history \nof England. To give the isles their own Iliad, so to speak. This puts\n ^^^^^" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aeneid is more like it ;)\n\nKeep up the discussion! Maybe we can circle back to Wolfe by way of _On \nFairy Tales_, being a Catholic writer, and secondary creation.\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<807595.83300.qm@web54407.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nathan Spears", "address": "spearofsolomon at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-17T07:12:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Never. He may be better, but that makes his stories GOOD fantasy, not a \ncompletely different genre. I can't believe that I have to defend the \nquality of modern fantasy on a Gene Wolfe mailing list of all places, \nsince Wolfe more than anyone has proved that Tolkien is far from the \nend-all of fantasy literature. This is snobbism at its worst." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not trying to be snobbist. If anything I would say that Wolfe has broken ground Tolkien never could have conceived of. However, I would also say that Wolfe has never been limited by the genre of fantasy and its rules. Perhaps the problem we are having is that I am assuming a \"genre of fantasy\" which includes mostly inferior works that copycat patterns established by superior works. When I think of Wolfe and LeGuin and other modern authors writing fantastic literature, that genre doesn't come to mind. I am probably confusing the situation because I dislike the use of the word genre to \"define\" a book's content and forget how other people use it.\n\nOf course I concede that Tolkien wrote fantasy - I am not saying that Tolkien requires an entire genre, \"genre of Tolkien,\" because he was so great. What I am saying is that hordes of writers have found themselves operating within boundaries that Tolkien created without even realizing it, and so find themselves essentially writing the same story with different names. They don't do this because Tolkien created those boundaries, but because they read Tolkien first and absorbed them from him. Writers like Wolfe and LeGuin easily escape that trap even when appropriating the same tools, as in The Knight or A Wizard of Earthsea. I don't think it helps that Tolkien's tale is superficially so simple - it leads to easy imitation. I've never read a copycat version of The Book of the New Sun and I doubt I will ever have to.\n\nI am also saying (and I think Don was saying as well) that while Tolkien's work is fantasy, it ALSO merits being labeled an epic or mythology on the order of the great works like the Iliad, Beowulf, etc. Now that sounds snobbist, or at least awfully fanboyish. To bring the discussion back around - which of Wolfe's works do you think likely to merit this sort of distinction? Is the distinction worth the time to argue over?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<408200.1000.qm@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-17T07:52:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "<807595.83300.qm@web54407.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Nathan Spears wrote:\n\nOf course I concede that Tolkien wrote fantasy - I\nam not saying that Tolkien requires an entire genre,\n\"genre of Tolkien,\" because he was so great. What I\nam saying is that hordes of writers have found\nthemselves operating within boundaries that Tolkien\ncreated without even realizing it," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tolkien was a traditionalist. He had very set rules\nfor what he was doing, especially with his background\nmaterial. He didn't create these boundaries, others\nhave simply limited themselves to them. Not Wolfe,\nobviously. > " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am also saying (and I think Don was saying as\nwell) that while Tolkien's work is fantasy, it ALSO\nmerits being labeled an epic or mythology on the\norder of the great works like the Iliad, Beowulf,\netc. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am not saying that. What I'm saying is that his work\nwas intended to be the kind of thing he wanted to\nread, epic mythology and heroic romance. Not fantasy\nas we call it today. When I see Beowulf, The Song of\nRoland, etc. etc. in the fantasy section of any\nbookstore or library, I'll call the Silmarillion or\nthis new book fantasy. The Lord of the Rings is\ndebateable (I'd put it in classics if I could), but I\nhaven't spoken of it once in this entire discussion.\n\n\n Now that sounds snobbist, or at least awfully" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "fanboyish. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm hardly a Tolkien fanboy. If you look hard enough\non this list you'll find that I got on the wrong side\nof an argument here because I questioned the\nheterosexuality of Sam and Frodo's relationship and\nimplied that Tolkien might have written it that way\nunconsciously. And I used Robert Graves to back myself\nup! But I have no interest in that fight and mention\nit only for illustrative purposes. (ducks and runs)\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-04-17T08:08:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "<408200.1000.qm@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://home.clara.net/andywrobertson/wolfemountains.html \n\n\nIn case any new listers have not read it" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11846.67.142.130.15.1176801980.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-17T09:26:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "<408200.1000.qm@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm hardly a Tolkien fanboy. If you look hard enough\non this list you'll find that I got on the wrong side\nof an argument here because I questioned the\nheterosexuality of Sam and Frodo's relationship and\nimplied that Tolkien might have written it that way\nunconsciously." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or even consciously.\n\nThe man *was* English.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370704170834i292d3243ifc819ddd1cca1e01@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-17T15:34:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ot-my mini review of Children of Hurin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/16/07, James Wynn wrote:\nTolkien's works occupy a middle ground between Morris and Brooks in\nthat he was writing as a fan of Morris, and Brooks was rewriting\nTolkien. Tolkien is the inventor of Adult Fantasy as we understand it\ntoday. \"The Simarillion\" of the Morris's Mythopoetic genre. \"The Lord\nof the Rings\" is the new animal that fills bookstores now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Distinguo: I think \"the Mythopoetic genre\" really exists more in retrospect\nthan it did at the time. And, while I know Tolkien respected Morris's work,\nI don't think he was really all that much influenced by it (as Lewis said,\n\"As well try to influence a Bandersnatch!\")\n\nTo consider Tolkien as the \"inventor\" of the modern genre of Adult\nFantasy is also kind of misleading -- he was essentially working in\nisolation, had no intention of creating a genre, and would probably\nbe deeply distressed by a great deal of the work that is compared to\nhis. The modern genre was really created more by Lin Carter and\nLester Del Rey than by JRRT." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is like saying Ellery Queen novels are not much different from\nEdgar Allen Poe's novels and that the divide that is Sir Arthur Conan\nDoyle is just an over-sized landmark in the Mystery genre." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quibble -- Poe never wrote a mystery novel, just short stories.\n\nMore important quibble: Doyle stands closer to Poe than to the modern\nmystery, in that modern mysteries (mostly) have a canon of \"fairness,\"\ni.e., the information the detective uses to solve the mystery must be\npresented to the reader. This is a post-Doyle innovation, and in fact the\nSherlock Holmes stories are decidedly *not* \"fair,\" as a general rule\n(this is why Watson so often comes across as a bumbling idiot)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." } ] } ] }