{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4820", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4820, "subject": "Bringin' it back to Wolfe by the long road", "messages": 13, "voices": 8, "first": "2007-04-17T07:29:22+00:00", "last": "2007-04-18T19:34:24+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<947734.92039.qm@web32404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-17T07:29:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bringin' it back to Wolfe by the long road", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First things first.\n\nfrom The Letters of JRR Tolkien, 1981 hardcover, p.\n144, letter 131 to Milton Waldman:\n\n 'But an equally basic passion of mine \"ab initio\"\nwas for myth (not allegory!) and for fairy-story, and\nabove all for heroic legend on the brink of fairy-tale\nand history, of which there is far too little in the\nworld (accessible to me) for my appetite. . . Also -\nand here I hope I shall not sound absurd - I was from\nearly days grieved by the poverty of my own beloved\ncountry: it had no stories of its own (bound up with\nits tongue and soil), not of the quality that I\nsought, and found (as an ingredient) in legends of\nother lands. There was Greek, and Celtic, and Romance,\nGermanic, Scandinavian, and Finnish (which greatly\naffected me); but nothing English, save impoverished\nchap-book stuff. . .But once upon a time (my crest has\nlong since fallen) I had a mind to make a body of more\nor less connected legend, ranging from the large and\ncosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story - the\nlarger founded on the lesser in contact with the\nearth, the lesser drawing splendour from the vast\nbackcloths - which I could dedicate simply to England;\nto my country.'\n\nOf course, he didn't manage this in his lifetime, and\nhad actually despaired of it by this letter, but I\nbelieve my point is made. The Silmarillion and The\nChildren of Hurin are the results of his son's effort\nto bring this ambition to fruit. This letter is huge,\nbut it's the most interesting one of the bunch, in my\nopinion.\n\nNow to Wolfe, sort of. In the middle of this lengthy\nquote there is a passage on Arthur:\n\n 'Of course there was and is all the Arthurian\nworld, but powerful as it is, it is imperfectly\nnaturalized, associated with the soil of Britain but\nnot with English; and does not replace what I felt to\nbe missing. For one thing its 'faerie' is too lavish,\nand fantastical, incoherent and repetitive. For\nanother and more important thing: it is involved in,\nand explicitly contains the Christian religion.'\n\nI find this paragraph interesting in that Tolkien\nviews Christianity as a liability here. And he's right\nregarding his own work, the lack of overt Christianity\nis a definite strength. But what does everyone think\nregarding Wolfe's big novels? I'm thinking especially\nof Wizard Knight, which involves both Arthur and the\nmost overt references to Christianity I have\nencountered from Wolfe. I found it a weakness myself;\nhaving Odin (the Vallfather) bow down to Michael was a\nlittle close to proselytising for me, and it seemed\nunnecessary to the overall intentions of the story.\nOpinions?\n\nAlso, one other minor thing. Tolkien writes, in a\nfootnote to this letter (Yes, virginia, he seems to\nhave written footnotes. Anyone know if this is common\nin letters?) that he is a huge fan of Mary Renault,\nthat he loves the two books on Theseus, The King Must\nDie and Bull from the Sea, and that her letter to him\nwas one of his favorite bits of fan mail. I read\nsomewhere around this list that Wolfe found Mary\nRenault unreadable but that he thought Robert Graves'\nHercules My Shipmate was great (it is). Graves, of\ncourse, took a fairly nasty snipe at Tolkien's work.\nIn this one I have to side with Tolkien. The King Must\nDie is pretty damn great.\n\nyours in wordage\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12835.67.142.130.16.1176795489.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-17T07:38:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bringin' it back to Wolfe by the long road", "in_reply_to": "<947734.92039.qm@web32404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, one other minor thing. Tolkien writes, in a\nfootnote to this letter (Yes, virginia, he seems to\nhave written footnotes. Anyone know if this is common\nin letters?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do it all the time. I don't write many letters, but I can't think of a\none that has not had at least one footnote." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " that he is a huge fan of Mary Renault,\nthat he loves the two books on Theseus, The King Must\nDie and Bull from the Sea, and that her letter to him\nwas one of his favorite bits of fan mail. I read\nsomewhere around this list that Wolfe found Mary\nRenault unreadable" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Huh. He also finds Delany unreadable (or was it just Dhalgren?). What do\nDelany and Renault have in common?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " but that he thought Robert Graves'\nHercules My Shipmate was great (it is)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Graves, of\ncourse, took a fairly nasty snipe at Tolkien's work.\nIn this one I have to side with Tolkien. The King Must\nDie is pretty damn great." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes in fact. Mary Renault is awesome. All of her stuff.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-04-17T07:47:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bringin' it back to Wolfe by the long road", "in_reply_to": "<947734.92039.qm@web32404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "don doggett writes:\nI'm thinking especially" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of Wizard Knight, which involves both Arthur and the\nmost overt references to Christianity I have\nencountered from Wolfe. I found it a weakness myself;\nhaving Odin (the Vallfather) bow down to Michael was a\nlittle close to proselytising for me, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nNot realy. Michael here is not precisely a Christian figure in a christian \nuniverse: rather he's a being of a certain rank, in a non-Christian \nuniverse, who is explained/derived in terms of Christan myth much as the \nOvercyns are explained/derived in terms of Nordic myth. He is of higher \nrank than Odin but other beings of non-Christian derivation like Parka are \nof higher rank than him,. There is no Christ in Mythgarthyr - the Outsider \nwas far more explicitly Christian in his function and relationship to \nhumanity. \n\n - hartshorn \n\n \n\n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-17T12:41:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bringin' it back to Wolfe by the long road", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " don doggett writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm thinking especially\nof Wizard Knight, which involves both Arthur and the\nmost overt references to Christianity I have\nencountered from Wolfe. I found it a weakness myself;\nhaving Odin (the Vallfather) bow down to Michael was a\nlittle close to proselytising for me," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hartshorn replies:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not realy. Michael here is not precisely a Christian figure in a christian\nuniverse: rather he's a being of a certain rank, in a non-Christian\nuniverse, who is explained/derived in terms of Christan myth much as the\nOvercyns are explained/derived in terms of Nordic myth. He is of higher\nrank than Odin but other beings of non-Christian derivation like Parka are\nof higher rank than him,." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Granting that Parka is of the same level as Michael, I think it is a\nsignificant point of which Wolfe was aware that in Germany the temples\nof Woden were overbuilt with chapels dedicated to St. Michael. (heh\nheh why do you suppose that is?)\n\nOf course, Able himself is a pretty blatant Christ-figure although, of\ncourse, not to the extent Narnia's Aslan is." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370704170843o8f558aal86912a3d6e426a29@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-17T15:43:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bringin' it back to Wolfe by the long road", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/17/07, Andy Robertson wrote:\nNot realy. Michael here is not precisely a Christian figure in a christian\nuniverse: rather he's a being of a certain rank, in a non-Christian\nuniverse, who is explained/derived in terms of Christan myth much as the\nOvercyns are explained/derived in terms of Nordic myth. He is of higher\nrank than Odin but other beings of non-Christian derivation like Parka are\nof higher rank than him,. There is no Christ in Mythgarthyr - the Outsider\nwas far more explicitly Christian in his function and relationship to\nhumanity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I must disagree. This *is* a Christian universe -- or, rather, a Universe\ncreated by the Christian God. Much of Wolfe's work involves what I\nsuppose you could call \"baptising\" non-Christian (or, in the case of\n_Long Sun_, Christian-but-heretical) worldviews, embedding them into\na more-or-less explicitly Christian context.\n\n_Long Sun_, as I have argued at length elsewhere, is a quite overt\nbaptism of a Gnostic (specifically, Valentinian) creation, embedding\nthe Whorl, a creation fo the evil Demiurge (Pas), _into_ the \"real\"\ncreation of Christian belief. The \"Latro\" books seem to baptize the\ngods of Greece, Egypt, and the ancient Middle-east, portraying them\nas creations of the one God, more powerful than humans but still\ncreatures. And WK seems to baptize the \"worlds\" of the Eddas." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." } ] }, { "message_id": "<13817.67.142.130.40.1176828691.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-17T16:51:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bringin' it back to Wolfe by the long road", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370704170843o8f558aal86912a3d6e426a29@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " The \"Latro\" books seem to baptize the\ngods of Greece, Egypt, and the ancient Middle-east, portraying them\nas creations of the one God, more powerful than humans but still\ncreatures." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a fairly standard view, in Greek religion and in 'heathen' or\n'pagan' religions generally. There is one God, normally sort of distant,\nwho creates subordinate gods.\n\nAs an aside, in India, Vaishnavism (for example) is strictly monotheistic\n(Krishna being the One God), with all of the other gods either being\naspects of Krishna or 'demi-gods' (basically angels). Vaishnavism also has\nthe concept of salvation, which is not actually all that common in\nreligious thought. This has led a lot of people to speculate (along with\nthe striking similarities between the names Krishna and Christos) that\nVaishnavism antedates the introduction of Christianity to India, but that\nseems not to be the case: it was well developed several hundred years BC.\n\nThe easiest answer (for me: atheists might find it more difficult) is that\nGod has done the incarnation thingie numerous times. You can even fit this\ninto an orthodox Christian worldview (sort of) by insisting that Christ is\nthe original and pattern of all of these avataras. It just requires an\nextra time dimension, and there do seem to be several timelike dimensions\n(in my personal experience, anyway).\n\nI had really hoped that Gene would get Latro to India, and maybe it will\nhappen. I'm less enthusiastic than I was for lots of Latro books after\nreading Sidon, which was good, but not the same as the first two.\n\nI think I will just sit back and enjoy what the man chooses to write.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<849472.85742.qm@web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-17T17:48:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bringin' it back to Wolfe by the long road", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370704170843o8f558aal86912a3d6e426a29@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nI must disagree. This *is* a Christian universe --\nor, rather, a Universe\ncreated by the Christian God. Much of Wolfe's work\ninvolves what I\nsuppose you could call \"baptising\" non-Christian\n(or, in the case of\n_Long Sun_, Christian-but-heretical) worldviews,\nembedding them into\na more-or-less explicitly Christian context." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ok, so assuming this, is it a liability to the text as\nTolkien said Christianity was to Arthurian legend? \n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-04-17T18:15:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bringin' it back to Wolfe by the long road", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370704170843o8f558aal86912a3d6e426a29@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I must disagree. This *is* a Christian universe " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nOnly in the same limited sense that Middle-Earth is \"Christian.\" \n\nThere is no Christ, no Theoanthropos. \n\nYes, I agree with your other points (indeed I've probably made most of them \nmyself somewhere in the archives) but this is the only really meaningful \ndefinition of \"Christian.\" \n\n \n\n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "<869511.1580.qm@web32415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-17T18:35:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bringin' it back to Wolfe by the long road", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Andy Robertson wrote:\nOnly in the same limited sense that Middle-Earth is\n\"Christian.\" \n\nThere is no Christ, no Theoanthropos. \n\nYes, I agree with your other points (indeed I've\nprobably made most of them \nmyself somewhere in the archives) but this is the\nonly really meaningful \ndefinition of \"Christian.\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except that an argument can be made that Able is the\nChrist figure. Or Severian. Or Silk. Or Latro. That\nat least gives it an overtly Christian template.\nTolkien's world doesn't possess this, only vaguely\nJudeo Christian values presented as a sort of Natural\nLaw.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20070417184307.ZBPG12122.eastrmmtao107.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2007-04-17T18:43:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bringin' it back to Wolfe by the long road", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 01:15 PM 4/17/2007, you wrote:\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I must disagree. This *is* a Christian universe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Only in the same limited sense that Middle-Earth is \"Christian.\"\n\nThere is no Christ, no Theoanthropos.\n\nYes, I agree with your other points (indeed I've probably made most of them\nmyself somewhere in the archives) but this is the only really meaningful\ndefinition of \"Christian.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose one must grant Tolkein what he's doing: presenting a \npre-Christian world, indeed pre-Abrahamic. Hence, no Christ . . . \nyet. No Sabbath Day formal worship . . . yet. Similarly, Wolfe in the \nLatro series. For the rest of Wolfe's works, however, the setting is \nAnno Domini (as he'd surely prefer to put it), and hence the \n\"Christ-event\" is somewhere in the past.\n\nFWIW\n\nNutria (I've been away. Have we dispensed with animal names?)\n\nJames B. Jordan\nDirector, Biblical Horizons\nBox 1096\nNiceville, FL 32588\nhttp://www.biblicalhorizons.com " } ] }, { "message_id": "<028e01c78157$535ed450$2a287645@VALUED7B9600FA>", "from": { "name": "Alan Lewis", "address": "alanarc1 at optonline.net" }, "date": "2007-04-18T01:17:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bringin' it back to Wolfe by the long road", "in_reply_to": "<869511.1580.qm@web32415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Only in the same limited sense that Middle-Earth is\n\"Christian.\"\n\nThere is no Christ, no Theoanthropos." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Except that an argument can be made that Able is the\nChrist figure. Or Severian. Or Silk. Or Latro. That\nat least gives it an overtly Christian template.\nTolkien's world doesn't possess this, only vaguely\nJudeo Christian values presented as a sort of Natural\nLaw.\n\nDon" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I'm not as die-hard a Tolkien scholar as some here seem to be, but \nturnabout is fair play with this point. I would plausit an equally valid \nargument could be made for any of the main heroes from LOTR for a Christ \nfigure for that matter. Gandolph sacrifices himself for his friends and \ncomes back from the dead. Frodo bears the burden of carrying the ring to \nsave the world, and 'dies' and comes back on the wings of eagles. Aragorn \ntravels through the land of the dead and harrows hell. All loosely speaking \nof course, but these people all seemed Christ-like to me in the exact same \nway that Able, Severian, and Silk did. I'd be curious to have Don expound \non how Latro is.\n\nAlan " } ] }, { "message_id": "<90527.9096.qm@web32407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-04-18T02:32:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bringin' it back to Wolfe by the long road", "in_reply_to": "<028e01c78157$535ed450$2a287645@VALUED7B9600FA>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- Alan Lewis wrote:\n I'd be" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "curious to have Don expound \non how Latro is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ok. Latro is a god as man, neither wholly human nor\nwholly divine, as he is posessed by Ares in Soldier of\nArete. He also dies and returns to life in Soldier of\nSidon. Which is something I've been meaning to bring\nup. I think it was pretty clever of Wolfe to admit\nthat Latro has multiple personalities in him then\nmuddy it up with Egyptian religion by saying the soul\nis divided into 8 parts.\n\nDon\n\nThe Evangelists: a Lesser Apocrypha http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=178109961" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1546501159.20070418213424@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanislaus", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2007-04-18T19:34:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bringin' it back to Wolfe by the long road", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello Andy," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tuesday, April 17, 2007, 9:47:12 AM, you wrote:\ndon doggett writes:\nI'm thinking especially\nof Wizard Knight, which involves both Arthur and the\nmost overt references to Christianity I have\nencountered from Wolfe. I found it a weakness myself;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "having Odin (the Vallfather) bow down to Michael was a\nlittle close to proselytising for me, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not realy. Michael here is not precisely a Christian figure in a christian\nuniverse: rather he's a being of a certain rank, in a non-Christian \nuniverse, who is explained/derived in terms of Christan myth much as the\nOvercyns are explained/derived in terms of Nordic myth. He is of higher\nrank than Odin but other beings of non-Christian derivation like Parka are\nof higher rank than him,. There is no Christ in Mythgarthyr - the Outsider\nwas far more explicitly Christian in his function and relationship to \nhumanity. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " - hartshorn " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wizard-Knight is clearly Neoplatonic. But Neoplatonism was christened by Pseudo-Dionysius and is the basis of eg Thomist philosophy. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Best regards,\n Stanislaus mailto:sbocian at poczta.fm\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\nOn wie jak zyska?, a nie straci?.\nWideofelietony Tadeusza Mosza. Zobacz >> http://link.interia.pl/f1a3c" } ] } ] }