{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4825", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4825, "subject": "5HOC - no. 5, Marsch, Eastwind and Sandwalker", "messages": 11, "voices": 8, "first": "2007-05-06T20:56:58+00:00", "last": "2007-05-17T11:37:01+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<1A905D5AFFFCE14BA291E0BB8D0A65BF04D10733@WDCNTEXVS01.corporate.nzpost.co.nz>", "from": { "name": "Maclean Jessica", "address": "jessica.maclean at nzpost.co.nz" }, "date": "2007-05-06T20:56:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HOC - no. 5, Marsch, Eastwind and Sandwalker", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi all\n\nI have just finished reading 5HOC for the first time- I really enjoyed\nit and liked the slightly harder sci-fi edge (tech-wise) of the first\nstory in particular. I'm just sorting through my impressions and would\nlove some feedback.\n\nNumber 5, and Maitre are two clones of the original Mr Million. Dr Veil\nand David are children of clones of Mr Million. Other clones, less\nsuitable for whatever reason, are sold. \n\nMarsch is either Sandwalker or Eastwind- when the cat bites Marsch,\neither, the cat is somehow Eastwind/Sandwalker, or the cat has bitten\nEastwind/Sandwalker. The ambiguity of the identity of the prisoner, the\nmany times that his ineptitude with tools is mentioned, the fact that\nonly one comes back from the trip, and the story that Marsch writes all\nlead me to believe this.\n\nWhich means that Number 5 is partially correct when he accuses Marsch of\nbeing an abo in the first story, when No. 5 wants to kill Maitre (who he\nthinks is his father). Who actually kills Maitre? The text only mentions\nNo. 5 being left alone with him after goading Marsch into leaving.\n\nMaitre is also the name of the officer in the third book who is reading\n\"Marsch\"'s notes. Is Maitre a clone? He has a slave who I think is a\nclone like No. 5- the description of \"high hunched shoulders\" and\nsomething about a narrow chin rang a bell. I note that Maitre, just like\nEastwind/Sandwalker, prefers to wash himself after being with a woman.\n\nIs Maitre the officer, \"Marsch\"? Bearing in mind that \"Marsch\" is half\nabo and can change his appearance to a certain degree...\n\n________________________________________ \nJessica Maclean \nCustomer Liaison \nNew Zealand Post \n________________________________________ \nTel: 0800 100 318 Fax: 0800 100 319\ne-mail: jessica.maclean at nzpost.co.nz \ncustomerliaison@ nzpost.co.nz \n_______________________________________ \nWinners of GOLD at the coveted CRM Contact Centre Awards 2006\n\nSmile, life is good! \nThis email with any attachments is confidential and may be subject to legal privilege. \nIf it is not intended for you please reply immediately, destroy it and do not copy, disclose or use it in any way. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan Rabin", "address": "wolfe-lists at danrabin.com" }, "date": "2007-05-06T22:39:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HOC - no. 5, Marsch, Eastwind and Sandwalker", "in_reply_to": "<1A905D5AFFFCE14BA291E0BB8D0A65BF04D10733@WDCNTEXVS01.corporate.nzpost.co.nz>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jessica Maclean asks," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 8:56 AM +1200 5/7/07, Maclean Jessica wrote:\nMaitre is also the name of the officer in the \nthird book who is reading \"Marsch\"'s notes. Is \nMaitre a clone? He has a slave who I think is a \nclone like No. 5- the description of \"high \nhunched shoulders\" and something about a narrow \nchin rang a bell. I note that Maitre, just like \nEastwind/Sandwalker, prefers to wash himself \nafter being with a woman.\n\nIs Maitre the officer, \"Marsch\"? Bearing in \nmind that \"Marsch\" is half abo and can change \nhis appearance to a certain degree?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Maitre\" is the French word corresponding to the \nEnglish \"Master\". It's actually spelled \n\"Ma?tre\", where the circumflex, as is often the \ncase in French, indicates an original \"s\" in the \netymology. I suspect both words descend from the \nLatin \"magister\".\n\nIt's what servants call the head of the household \nin which they serve--a title or honorific, not a \nname.\n\n -- Dan Rabin" } ] }, { "message_id": "<463E6578.8030008@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-05-06T23:32:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HOC - no. 5, Marsch, Eastwind and Sandwalker", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan Rabin wrote:\nJessica Maclean asks,\n\nAt 8:56 AM +1200 5/7/07, Maclean Jessica wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Maitre is also the name of the officer in the \nthird book who is reading \"Marsch\"'s notes. Is \nMaitre a clone? He has a slave who I think is a \nclone like No. 5- the description of \"high \nhunched shoulders\" and something about a narrow \nchin rang a bell. I note that Maitre, just like \nEastwind/Sandwalker, prefers to wash himself \nafter being with a woman.\n\nIs Maitre the officer, \"Marsch\"? Bearing in \nmind that \"Marsch\" is half abo and can change \nhis appearance to a certain degree?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Maitre\" is the French word corresponding to the \nEnglish \"Master\". It's actually spelled \n\"Ma?tre\", where the circumflex, as is often the \ncase in French, indicates an original \"s\" in the \netymology. I suspect both words descend from the \nLatin \"magister\".\n\nIt's what servants call the head of the household \nin which they serve--a title or honorific, not a \nname." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe that it also serves as a double-entendre in the first story; \nMaitre is also Number 5's figurative \"mater\", or mother, as well as his \nfather." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-05-07T02:05:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HOC - no. 5, Marsch, Eastwind and Sandwalker", "in_reply_to": "<1A905D5AFFFCE14BA291E0BB8D0A65BF04D10733@WDCNTEXVS01.corporate.nzpost.co.nz>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marsch is either Sandwalker or Eastwind- when the cat bites Marsch, either,\nthe cat is somehow Eastwind/Sandwalker, or the cat has bitten\nEastwind/Sandwalker.\nThe ambiguity of the identity of the prisoner, the many\ntimes that his ineptitude with tools is mentioned, the fact that only one\ncomes back from the trip, and the story that Marsch writes all lead me to\nbelieve this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't *think* so. After Marsch kills the cat (which is an abo), VRT\n(who is also an abo) kills Marsch. Then he spends some time in the\nwilderness growing a beard and preparing to take on the identity of\nMarsch. The \"man\" in the cell is VRT. So Number 5 was entirely\ncorrect.\n\nThe story (so it seems to me) is \"abo lore\" of when the colonists\nfirst arrived. VRT wrote it.\n\nThis is all straightforward with the exception that VRT does \"share\ndreams\" with Number 5 (as abo twins do). I suppose that this is from\nhis Shadow Child telepathic abilities, but I don't know for sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maitre is also the name of the officer in the third book who is reading\n\"Marsch\"'s notes. Is Maitre a clone? >" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maaaaybe. The possibility cannot be discounted. However, for certain,\nit is another parallel between Number 5 and VRT. They were both\nprisoners of \"Maitre\" to be endlessly and pointlessly examined.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9a33123d0705070251x17ca1835l6fe7e23b0c9728d7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2007-05-07T09:51:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HOC - no. 5, Marsch, Eastwind and Sandwalker", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jessica Maclean wrote:\nMarsch is either Sandwalker or Eastwind- when the cat bites Marsch,\neither, the cat is somehow Eastwind/Sandwalker, or the cat has bitten\nEastwind/Sandwalker." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think the cat bites anyone. When 'Marsch' reports the incident\nin his journal, he does so to explain why his handwriting has suddenly\nbecome so bad. But if Marsch is no longer Marsch but one of the\nAnnese, then of course his handwriting would be bad - he can't use\ntools." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The ambiguity of the identity of the prisoner, the\nmany times that his ineptitude with tools is mentioned, the fact that\nonly one comes back from the trip, and the story that Marsch writes all\nlead me to believe this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only one comes back from the trip, but two set off. VRT is surely the\nperson who steals Marsch's identity, and no one has to get bitten by\nanything for that to happen.\n\nThat said, there's no doubt that there's a strong echo of the incident\nof the Shadow Child biting Sandwalker, whose identity is thereafter\nmuddled. But I think the parallel is an artistic one - there are a lot\nof such devices connecting the three stories." } ] }, { "message_id": "<32334369.1178724748220.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2007-05-09T15:32:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HOC - no. 5, Marsch, Eastwind and Sandwalker", "in_reply_to": "<9a33123d0705070251x17ca1835l6fe7e23b0c9728d7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tony Ellis wrote:\nI don't think the cat bites anyone. When 'Marsch' reports the incident\nin his journal, he does so to explain why his handwriting has suddenly\nbecome so bad. But if Marsch is no longer Marsch but one of the\nAnnese, then of course his handwriting would be bad - he can't use\ntools." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rereading this passage, I noticed something odd. Like you, I had believed that the Apr. 23 entry, as well as the note preceding it, were written by V.R.T. (as the officer's behavior seems to confirm) and that the cat-bite story was V.R.T.'s invention. But the big change in the entries comes a day later: the Apr. 23 entry could easily have been written by Marsch, whereas the Apr. 24 and later entries were clearly written by V.R.T. Stylistically, too, the Apr. 23 entry and preceding note are more like Marsch's entries than the post-Apr. 23 entries. Moreover, the Apr. 23 entry talks of shooting the tire-tiger, but V.R.T. can't use a rifle. (Of course V.R.T. could have made that up too, but in the rest of his entries he does a very poor job of pretending to be Marsch.)\n\nIf the Apr. 23 entry and preceding note are in Marsch's words, then what happened must have been something like this: On Apr. 22 Marsch is bitten by the cat. On Apr. 23 Marsch writes the original version of the entry we see: the cat's bite affects his handwriting, though it doesn't look like V.R.T.'s handwriting. Sometime after that, Marsch is either killed by V.R.T. or dies in an accident. On June 1 V.R.T. decides to continue Marsch's journal, writing as Marsch, and the note preceding the Apr. 23 entry shows him how he can do this. So V.R.T. copies the note and Apr. 23 entry, and cuts the original out of the notebook (as the first three pages were cut out). In doing so he also cuts out any entries Marsch may have written between the Apr. 21 entry, where he says he would shoot V.R.T. and the girl if he caught them having sex, and his own death.\n\nI'm not very happy with this, as it's the sort of elaborate scenario with no direct evidence that I generally dislike. But the difference between the Apr. 23 and \"Apr. 24\" entries is so striking (to me, anyway), that it requires explanation. An alternate explanation would be that Marsch's altered handwriting just happens to look like V.R.T.'s, but this would be too much of a coincidence.\n\n(Apologies if this has been discussed before, though I don't remember it having been.)\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9a33123d0705091348u6cd20147ic047b812fef6a1a1@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2007-05-09T20:48:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HOC - no. 5, Marsch, Eastwind and Sandwalker", "in_reply_to": "<32334369.1178724748220.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Stephanides wrote:\nRereading this passage, I noticed something odd... " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I take your point that the April 23 entry reads a lot like a normal\nMarsch entry. But the idea that the reader is supposed to infer VRT\ncopied out an entry in someone else's bad handwriting in his *own* bad\nhandwriting is a step too far for me - especially as it also requires\nus to infer that he cut out the original entry when Wolfe gives us no\nindication of any such mutilation to the journal. (And that's another\nthing: the officer notices when pages have been removed expertly, but\nnot when it's done by hamfisted VRT?)\n\nPerhaps the cat bit Marsch and Wolfe doesn't think it's such a big\ncoincidence that his altered handwriting looks like VRT's. After all,\nVRT's handwriting is what writing looks like when you hold the pen\nwrongly, and that's what Marsch would be doing.\n\nBut I don't think so. For me, it's simply too much to swallow that\njust before Marsch's handwriting changes because he's been replaced by\nan alien that can't write properly, it changes *anyway* because he was\nbitten by a cat. I suppose it's just down to personal taste.\n\n\nComing back to the April 23 journal entry... on balance I think VRT\nwrote it. The curious business of preceding the entry with an\nout-of-sequence note seems to indicate that something is up. And more\nimportantly *why does Marsch wait until he has killed the ghoul-bear\nto tell us he killed the tire-tiger the day before?* The man loves\nshooting wildlife, and is hugely proud of his kills. If he was so\nexcited about killing the tiger, as the entry says he was, why didn't\nhe excitedly write about it in his journal at the time? His cat bite\ncertainly wasn't a handicap.\n\nAlso: \"The boy had enticed [the cat] into his lap and was sitting - as\nhe always used to when he wasn't cooking - with his back to the\nfire...\"\n\nWhy \"as he always used to\"? Why write as if that's something that used\nto happen, but doesn't now? Because the writer is VRT, and the\nexpedition ended a month ago? That would be my guess." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370705091519l7397e48ak6b4140c0cc2f710a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-05-09T22:19:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HOC - no. 5, Marsch, Eastwind and Sandwalker", "in_reply_to": "<9a33123d0705091348u6cd20147ic047b812fef6a1a1@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummm.\n\nI've never believed the cat really did bite Marsch. I've always\nassumed that was something VRT made up to explain his\nhandwriting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/9/07, Tony Ellis wrote:\nAdam Stephanides wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rereading this passage, I noticed something odd... " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I take your point that the April 23 entry reads a lot like a normal\nMarsch entry. But the idea that the reader is supposed to infer VRT\ncopied out an entry in someone else's bad handwriting in his *own* bad\nhandwriting is a step too far for me - especially as it also requires\nus to infer that he cut out the original entry when Wolfe gives us no\nindication of any such mutilation to the journal. (And that's another\nthing: the officer notices when pages have been removed expertly, but\nnot when it's done by hamfisted VRT?)\n\nPerhaps the cat bit Marsch and Wolfe doesn't think it's such a big\ncoincidence that his altered handwriting looks like VRT's. After all,\nVRT's handwriting is what writing looks like when you hold the pen\nwrongly, and that's what Marsch would be doing.\n\nBut I don't think so. For me, it's simply too much to swallow that\njust before Marsch's handwriting changes because he's been replaced by\nan alien that can't write properly, it changes *anyway* because he was\nbitten by a cat. I suppose it's just down to personal taste.\n\n\nComing back to the April 23 journal entry... on balance I think VRT\nwrote it. The curious business of preceding the entry with an\nout-of-sequence note seems to indicate that something is up. And more\nimportantly *why does Marsch wait until he has killed the ghoul-bear\nto tell us he killed the tire-tiger the day before?* The man loves\nshooting wildlife, and is hugely proud of his kills. If he was so\nexcited about killing the tiger, as the entry says he was, why didn't\nhe excitedly write about it in his journal at the time? His cat bite\ncertainly wasn't a handicap.\n\nAlso: \"The boy had enticed [the cat] into his lap and was sitting - as\nhe always used to when he wasn't cooking - with his back to the\nfire...\"\n\nWhy \"as he always used to\"? Why write as if that's something that used\nto happen, but doesn't now? Because the writer is VRT, and the\nexpedition ended a month ago? That would be my guess.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<464326D8.2020805@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-05-10T14:06:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HOC - no. 5, Marsch, Eastwind and Sandwalker", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370705091519l7397e48ak6b4140c0cc2f710a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nUmmm.\n\nI've never believed the cat really did bite Marsch. I've always\nassumed that was something VRT made up to explain his\nhandwriting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps _VRT_ imitates the cat to bite Marsch, then waits a day or two \nto make sure the sample takes and he can now imitate Marsch, then kills \nhim? The other accounts of abo imitations that come to mind seem to take \na cerain amount of time and involve blood being drawn, or at least don't \nrule it out." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-05-12T17:07:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HOC - no. 5, Marsch, Eastwind and Sandwalker", "in_reply_to": "<464326D8.2020805@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I had believed that the Apr. 23 entry, as well as the note preceding it,\nwere written by V.R.T." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have always presumed the April 23 entry was written by Marsch. That was why\nI presumed VRT had murdered Marsch for some reason relating to this event.\nOtherwise, it just seemed too coincidental." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the cat's bite affects his handwriting, though it doesn't look like V.R.T.'s\nhandwriting. Sometime after that, Marsch is either killed by V.R.T." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "or dies in an" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "accident." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Once again, the idea that Marsch died by accident seemed way to coincidental,\nhowever (something about the way Adam put this timeline together)\nit does seem reasonable that the cat's bite killed Marsch and so VRT\ntook up his identity to hide the nature of Marsch's death.\n\nI like this idea very much." } ] }, { "message_id": "<200705170737.02295.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-05-17T11:37:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HOC - no. 5, Marsch, Eastwind and Sandwalker", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Saturday 12 May 2007 13:07, James Wynn wrote:\nAdam said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I had believed that the Apr. 23 entry, as well as the note preceding it,\nwere written by V.R.T." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have always presumed the April 23 entry was written by Marsch. That was\nwhy I presumed VRT had murdered Marsch for some reason relating to this\nevent. Otherwise, it just seemed too coincidental." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "the cat's bite affects his handwriting, though it doesn't look like\nV.R.T.'s handwriting. Sometime after that, Marsch is either killed by\nV.R.T." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "or dies in an" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "accident." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Once again, the idea that Marsch died by accident seemed way to\ncoincidental, however (something about the way Adam put this timeline\ntogether)\nit does seem reasonable that the cat's bite killed Marsch and so VRT\ntook up his identity to hide the nature of Marsch's death." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To my mind, it only seems too coincidental if you assume that VRT intended to \nassume Marsch's identity from the beginning. If, however, you assume that \nMarsch died and VRT seized the opportunity, then it doesn't seem like a huge \ncoincidence. It's been awhile since I read the story, so I don't know how \nwell this interpretation jibes with the text. It's something I'll keep in \nmind the next time I read it." } ] } ] }