{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4829",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 4829,
    "subject": "The puzzles",
    "messages": 3,
    "voices": 2,
    "first": "2007-05-18T04:26:24+00:00",
    "last": "2007-05-20T04:09:09+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<001001c79904$b55ae3a0$dac95a42@rclackey.stic.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Roy C. Lackey",
        "address": "rclackey at stic.net"
      },
      "date": "2007-05-18T04:26:24+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) The puzzles",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "Craig Brewer wrote:\nSo"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "no mysteries solved but more questions raised. If\nwe come to think that this book is essentially\nknotted, that at least does give a very interesting\ncounter-example to the common notion that all of\nWolfe’s “puzzles” can be solved by discerning readers.\nIt also makes me question whether some of the puzzles\nin the other works are supposed to remain so. That\nsaid, it raises some other interesting questions about\nthe literary merit of “puzzles” like this: what\npurpose(s) do they serve when they are solvable and\nwhen they are opaque. After all, puzzles and ambiguity\nhave very different interpretive consequences.<<\n\nThose are some nasty, nasty questions. <g> Any response I make is likely to\nelicit yowls from one or another section of the Preacher's choir, but it\ncan't be helped.\n\nThere are puzzles and then there are puzzles. Do we really need to know that\nDorcas is Severian's grandmother in order to understand the surface story or\nappreciate the author's thematic designs? No. But a certain satisfaction is\nderived from figuring it out.\n\nLikewise, do we need to know that Weer is dead? I think, yes. The difference\nis that knowing Weer is dead, as opposed to, say, the disjointed ramblings\nof a demented old man, changes our perception of the nature of his\nruminations. Who is he trying to fool in the frametale, himself or God?\nApparently Wolfe thought it important for the reader to know that Weer was\ndead, so he planted the clue in the first sentence of the novel. When\ncritics failed to pick up on the fact of it he pointed it out, proclaiming\nthat he had provided the information fair and square to the attentive\nreader. Well, yes, he did. <g>\n\nI have little doubt that some of the minor puzzles in Wolfe's work are, in\neffect, 'insider' references that few people could or would be expected to\nunderstand. But I think the vast majority of his puzzles are meant to be\nsolved, that the pieces (scattered though they may be in unlikely places)\nare there, or at least enough of them that the picture they form can be seen\nclearly enough.\n\nWolfe *demands* more from his readers than many readers can -- or are\nwilling -- to supply, which is part of the reason he is not a best-selling\nauthor. It is why the Urth list exists. Over the years I have engaged\npeople, on list and off, some of whom have published books and articles\nabout Wolfe's work, in discussions of his major and minor works. I *know*\nfrom those discussions that *no one* has all the answers, and few even\npretend to. I have expended more words in exchanges about some short stories\nthan the stories contained -- and when all was said the questions still\noutnumbered the answers.\n\nThe puzzles are meant to be solved, I think, but the problem is to\ndistinguish the puzzles from the deliberate ambiguities. Parts of 5HC, say,\nare, I believe, meant to remain ambiguous. The puzzle surrounding that damn\ntrunk in Marble/Rose's attic was, I believe, meant to be solved, even if I\nhaven't done it to my satisfaction.\n\nNo one can accuse Wolfe of padding his works with a lot of window dressing.\nAlmost everything is in there for a reason, even if for no better reason\nthan the fact that Wolfe *wanted* it there (e.g., talus factory tour). To\nsupply a very minor example from CASTLEVIEW: When little Judy fetched\nExcalibur from Morgan's cabinet, the tip of the sword was resting on \"a\nshabby little leather book that fell to the floor as she took the sword out.\nMercedes picked up the book, but had eyes only for the sword.\" (265) That is\nthe only mention of that book in the text. I can't name that book, but I bet\nWolfe could.\n\nAs for the \"literary merit\" of the puzzles, I don't know. But I do know that\nFINNEGAN'S WAKE makes an excellent doorstop. <g>\n\n-Roy"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<001001c79a2d$26898120$35c95a42@rclackey.stic.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Roy C. Lackey",
        "address": "rclackey at stic.net"
      },
      "date": "2007-05-19T15:48:26+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) The puzzles",
      "in_reply_to": "<001001c79904$b55ae3a0$dac95a42@rclackey.stic.net>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "I wrote:\nWolfe *demands* more from his readers than many readers can -- or are\nwilling -- to supply, which is part of the reason he is not a best-selling\nauthor. It is why the Urth list exists.<<"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Looking back at the above, I hope that my meaning was not construed as\nsomehow insulting to the members of this list; far from it, as I am\nobviously in the same boat. What I meant to convey was that many readers,\neven among the sub-set who enjoy Wolfe, have little more than a passing\ninterest in solving the puzzles. They either lack the time needed to pursue\nsolutions or feel that the rewards are not worth the effort.\n\n-Roy"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<464FC9E5.4090400@majitek.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Steve Taylor",
        "address": "steve.taylor at majitek.com"
      },
      "date": "2007-05-20T04:09:09+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) The puzzles",
      "in_reply_to": "<001001c79a2d$26898120$35c95a42@rclackey.stic.net>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\n\nLooking back at the above, I hope that my meaning was not construed as\nsomehow insulting to the members of this list; far from it, as I am\nobviously in the same boat. What I meant to convey was that many readers,\neven among the sub-set who enjoy Wolfe, have little more than a passing\ninterest in solving the puzzles. They either lack the time needed to pursue\nsolutions or feel that the rewards are not worth the effort.\n  "
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Certainly for my part, I'm more than glad to have the list here as a \nmagic decoder ring. I love Wolfe's writing, but the fact that it's full \nof arcane puzzles is not the reason I love it."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "-Roy\n  "
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "                                Steve"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}