{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/483",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 483,
    "subject": "the Ellis response to Genealogies Redux",
    "messages": 1,
    "voices": 1,
    "first": "1998-04-08T20:05:23+00:00",
    "last": "1998-04-08T20:05:23+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0009-0725@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Robert Borski",
        "address": "rborski at coredcs.com"
      },
      "date": "1998-04-08T20:05:23+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Re: the Ellis response to Genealogies Redux",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Bravo, Tony!\n\nNice post and I applaud the sensibility of your counter-arguments.\n\nHere follow my own in this multi-generational thread (pun intended). \n\nIn regards to my accusing you of having one too many -greats in the Wolfe\ngenealogy, you respond:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Well, not by my reckoning! <g> You're saying that the GW Mr\nMillion is simulating (Five's great-grandfather) was the first of the\nline, but I'm saying there has to be another one behind him if\nNumber Five is to be the fifth generation."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "If I said I thought Number Five was a fifth generation anything I did not\nmean it. He is more precisely the fifth _iteration_ . The original GW, his\nthree cloned sons (fils to his pere ), and Mr. Million comprise the five. "
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "I wasn't actually arguing that being Maitre's _daughter_ would stop\nPhaedria's parents attempting to marry her back into the family,\nrather that the fact she came from Maitre at all would make them\nthink of her as of little further value to him. "
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I think they might find it ironic, true, but certainly would never pass up\nthe attempt to marry or sell off poor Phaedria, especially after her\ngoverness relayed the news about Number Five's possible interest. Greed and\nvenality may also have dulled their reasoning abilities."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "a broken ankle is very, very different. If Wolfe wanted to imply a link,\nwhy not give poor Phaedria an affliction, however mild, in both legs?\nOr a bone disease which, it is implied with Wolfean subtlety, might\none day prevent her from walking?"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Here I respectfully agree to disagree, standing by my original argument."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Well, Number Five's poor health required him to be seated. It's\nsimply good writing to give a reason for an otherwise healthy girl to\nbe sitting there too."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Likewise here. Many viable alternate scenarios suggest themselves, all of\nwhich would allow for Phaedra to come into contact with Number Five and not\ninvolving a broken ankle. People sit in parks all the time; some even\ncontrive to meet others. Phaedria could have asked her governess if they\nmight sit down for a while and enjoy the day, or been picnicking nearby;\nshe could have done the dropped hanky bit or needed to tie/buckle her shoe,\netc., etc."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "I concede your point that Phaedria has had plastic surgery, but\nthat would make her the _only_ member of the family without\nsome resemblance to the original. David may have blonde hair\nbut even Number Five concedes that \"Maybe he looks a little\nlike me\". Wolfe goes out of his way to underline the family\nresemblance wherever we see a family member, from the \nfour-armed fighting slave to Aunt Jeannine, so this doesn't ring true."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I still maintain the plastic surgery supports my theory and vitiates yours.\nAlso why a genetic clone of Michael Jackson would not resemble Michael\nJackson. <g>"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "As for Wolfe toying with us, in a sense he is. The significance of\nAunt Jeannine's question is that it reminds Number Five of Aunt\nBetsey Trotwood in \"David Copperfield\" - as well it might: not only\nwas Betsey another formidable little lady, but the whole theme of\nthat novel is the past, and the uncovering of buried experiences. Aunt\nBetsey sets her heart on David's mother giving birth to a girl, and\nis exasperated when the child turns out to be a boy. It becomes a \nrunning joke through the rest of the novel: Betsey is always \nobserving how David's angelic, non-existant sister would have\ndone this or wouldn't have done that. I think this is what Wolfe\nhad in mind - and all he had in mind - by making Aunt Jeannine\nsay \"Your father had a sister - why shouldn't you?\"."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Given the polyallusional nature of Wolfe's writing, there is no reason to\nbelieve this can't be _both_ a sly nod to the Trotwood reference (for which\nI'm deeply indebted to you for the gloss, it having been a million years\nsince I read DAVID COPPERFIELD), as well as meant to convey the information\nabout Number Five having a sister. In fact, much of Wolfe is like this,\nwith multiply-resonating references, and there is no reason to believe this\nis not one of them.\n\nAny thoughts, Tony, as long as we're mentioning associative works, on why\nGW called Phaedria Phaedria, if not for the extraliterary reference to\nincest?\n\nOne last new thought I haven't brought to the table until now, then:\n\nDavid, we learn, has blue eyes (p.9). Phaedria has violet eyes (p.29).\nViolet is considered a shade of blue by geneticists and follows the same\npattern of inheritance; i.e., both eye color alleles (one from each parent)\nmust be blue for it be manifested. Number Five having brown eyes means\nMaitre has brown eyes, but also carries the recessive blue (otherwise David\nwould not been blue-eyed). Phaedria's mother then must have carried at\nleast one gene for blue/violet, which when combined with the paired blue\nrecessive from Maitre would manifest itself anywhere from blue to violet,\nincluding intermixed shades (the same way eye color does in children born\nof a blue-eyed, green-eyed couple). I submit this as still further evidence\nthat Maitre is Phaedria's father.\n\nI'm starting to feel like Tony Ellis and I have subsumed the roles of David\nand Number Five, with our pcs becoming Mr. Million, and we're both arguing\nover the works of someone who approaches for us the stature of Homer. Maybe\nit's not as edifying as the alga-nutria dialogues, but we're having fun!\n\nNow if we could just find the equivalent of a sister...\n\nRobert Borski"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}