{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4832", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4832, "subject": "New Wolfe Stories", "messages": 5, "voices": 5, "first": "2007-05-27T20:04:05+00:00", "last": "2007-06-12T14:24:15+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<44fb53d10705271304g426ae124gcf86f48dd585a726@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-05-27T20:04:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Stories", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was in the bookstore today browsing the fantasy section when I found a new\nfantasy anthology called Wizards. Wolfe has a story called \"The Magic\nAnimal.\" I didn't take a very long look at the book, but I noticed that Neil\nGaiman, Jane Yolen, Peter S. Beagle, and Tad Williams all have stories in\nthe collection. I looked up the book on Amazon, and the reviews seemed to be\nfairly positive, though they noted that a large number of the stories have\nto do with coming-of-age (Is this supposed to be YA?). Not sure how good the\nWolfe story is, as I really don't have the money to buy a hardcover at the\nmoment, but I thought the list might be interested.\n\nAlso, Subterranean Press now publishes an online magazine; apparently\nthey're going to be putting up a Wolfe story at some point in the future. I\nwonder if this means Wolfe is publishing something through Subterranean?\nHopefully they'll put the story up soon.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Batrinque at aol.com", "address": "batrinque at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-05-27T20:34:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Stories", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10705271304g426ae124gcf86f48dd585a726@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Recently whle browsing through a few boxes of old books in the garage (and \nputting off doing repairs on the tractor-mower) I came across a book I had \nforgotten I owned: a copy of the limited first edition (#217 of 750) of Gene \nWolfe's \"Free Live Free\", published in 1984 by Mark Ziesing of Wiilimantic, CT \n(back in those days I frequented the Ziesing Brothers bookstore in \nWillimantic); it was signed by Wolfe and the three artists who contributed illustrations \nto the book. I shall have to read the book again because I cannot remember a \n thing about it. \n \nBruce Trinque\nAmston, CT" } ] }, { "message_id": "<952392.71153.qm@web36905.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-05-28T17:59:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ideal Able?", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10705271304g426ae124gcf86f48dd585a726@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just finished TWK for the second time, and, after\nrereading the archives, I thought I’d throw something\nout there:\n\nI’m not entirely convinced that we’re supposed to\nidealize Able as much as all the other characters do.\nWhat I mean is that I don’t think Wolfe actually sees\nAble as (at least currently) an example of ideal\nknighthood. Or, if he is an ideal knight, I’m not\nentirely sure that we’re supposed to think of\nknighthood itself as some kind of ideal itself. I say\nthis because in the archives, so many people seemed\nupset with Able’s often brutal choices. I think that\nreaction is right, but I don’t think it means that\nWolfe is either idealizing some kind of brutal\nknighthood or that Able’s necessarily supposed to be\nsome sort of “everyman.” (He’s even less of a\nchristological figure than Severian, imo.) Instead, I\nthink he’s a kind of speculative projection, as in “if\na world such as this had knights, this is how they\nwould act, etc.”\n\nThere are a number of reasons for this.\n\nThe first is that, in an interview with Fast Forward\n(http://fast-forward.tv/blog/?p=4), Wolfe says that he\nwanted to imagine a world with knights and chivalry\nbut without Christianity. I take this idea literally,\nand, consequently, I think it best at first to resist\nthe urge to find Wolfe’s Catholicism somehow\nnecessarily “embedded” in this cosmos. The story of\nthe creation here seems decidedly unchristian since,\naccording to Able, it was just so that the Most High\nGod could have someone “to talk to.” This also gives\nvery little Christian framework for morality since\nthere’s no Adam and no test. Humans are part of a\nlarger pattern of less perfect things looking higher\nand setting examples for lower beings. There’s no\n“original sin,” etc., and while it’s certainly\npossible to work out a Christian analogy to some of\nit, there’s never any real sense of being judged by\nthe Most High God. He seems entirely absent (and even\nthe immediate gods of each realm are themselves\nparticularly “absent,” as Able’s message makes clear).\n\nSecond, Able becomes a knight not out of sincere\nrespect for knights but because it was necessary for\nhim to bring the message to Arnthor (he had to be the\nkind of person Arnthor would find respectable). (I\nalso have a feeling that his early awe at Ravd was\nsomething he was made to feel by the Aelf, not\nnecessarily out of some mystic moral respect — his\ndescription of a kind of instant awe seems a touch\n“magical” in retrospect.) His only seemingly sincere\ndesire was to return to Disiri, and all of his other\nknightly qualities were results of knowing that he\nneeded to be successful in that quest before he could\nreturn to her. I know that’s a big claim, but it seems\nto stand up.\n\nThird, isn’t refusing to follow the Valfather at the\nend a kind of confirmation of this? He actually goes\nlower, to Aelfrice, rather than ascending closer to\nthe Most High God. I don’t think this is necessarily a\nfailing, but even Able knows that his “true” love is\nfor a creature of leaves and mud (as he sees Disiri in\nthe helm) rather than for the Valfather’s glory. Even\nafter letting Disiri drink his blood and become human,\nthey remain in Aelfrice and Able speaks of giving up\nknighthood and return to a life as a boy. The rest of\nthe knights want to die as knights, but, for Able, it\nwas a temporary occupation.\n\nFourth, he knows how to be brave and strong, etc., but\nhis ideal heroic status (and the feats he can\naccomplish) are often the result of his “wizard”\nnature: having magical friends or magical weapons or a\nmagical bow (recall how he loses the bow contest\nbecause he no longer has his magical string).\nCertainly, he can do wonderful things on his own, but\nthey seem ordinarily wonderful, if that makes\nsense\nnot exactly idealized heroically.\n\nFifth, although he seems himself “truly” as a man at\nthe end through his helm, through the rest of it, he’s\nalways insisting that he’s still a boy, even after\nspending 20 years in Skai. Part of this could be the\nhumility and the acknowledgement of fear and finitude\nthat everyone responds to him with. But it could also\nbe simply true: Able recognizes that he’s really being\nused and manipulated by things much greater than him,\nand that his “heroism” is a result of all kinds of\nforces other than him.\n\nFinally, and this is pure speculation, is his name.\nAble. Ability. Capability. Capacity. Almost like\nPower. So if a knight is a kind of power, it’s a Can,\nnot a May. Knights need something more than power to\nknow that how they’re acting is right. By itself, it’s\nnot enough. In the end, this world seems somewhat\nneutral on the question of whether or not it’s good in\nitself to be a knight. It’s certainly good given the\nkind of world they live in. But they’re also brutal\nwarriors. That returns me to the world without\nChristianity. I feel it most strongly in its absence,\nand, if Wolfe is giving any kind of moral to Able as\nan idealized knight, it’s almost that, without some\nkind of moral guidance, even honor will always remain\na bit questionable. Perhaps Able realizes that, and\nwhat I feel is his ambivalence towards his own actions\nis a kind of recognition that he really needs more.\nHis love for Disiri, a real love that is based on\nnothing “martial” at all, transcends everything of his\nknightly nature, it would seem, and could potentially\nnullify all that he’s done, if she would ask. That\nkind of love and devotion is very different from\nanything he’s been asked to do in his “honorable”\nroles, and perhaps that’s the point at which, in the\nend, the figure closest to a Christian image in the\nbooks, Michael, can finally come to him with a\ndifferent quest. It’s only, maybe, when Able is least\na knight that he can work for this “great lord” who\nhas sent a messenger who also is capable of seeing\ninto the world of “America” that is somehow outside\nthis brutal, Norse-ish world.\n\nAnyway, my thoughts.\n\nAnd a couple of unrelated questions: Is Michael’s\nquest for Able going to be for another message like\nthe Aelf wanted to send? If so, for and to whom?\n\nIs Garsecg our Merlin figure? After all, he’s the one\nwho teaches Able about the “sea” and its power early\nin his life, as well as showing him the consequences\nof bad rule.\n\nHow are we to understand cross-level breeding\n(Arnthor, Morcaine, Garsecg) if the Aelf can’t go two\nlevels above them? How do the dragons go up?\n\nAnd what did Kulili show Able when, he says, he fought\nher but yielded?\n\nWhat is a “soul” here? Or rather, are there such\nthings? Aelf don’t have them\nbecause they were created\nby a creature? Further, aren’t all lower beings in\nsome form the result of cast-off imperfections? Even\nmen, even the Overcyns. Certainly Garvaon’s\n“ascension” seems like it could be his “soul”\nascending, but Able says specifically that only a few\npeople actually ascend like that. What happens to the\nrest of the souls? Do they, like the giant whose body\nis Mythgarthr, actually just return to “nature?” The\nanimist world of elementals associated with Aelfrice\nseems to suggest something like that. It’s only heroes\nwho get to rise to Skai. So this is a world in which\n“salvation,” if there is such a thing, is neither\nChristian nor Gnostic. Only heroes, or maybe Heroes,\nendure.\n\nI have many more. But this is long enough. Hopefully\npeople will be willing to start some chat about it\nagain.\n\nCraig\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-12T12:23:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Able and allowed", "in_reply_to": "<952392.71153.qm@web36905.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is and has been a lot of legitimate, quite justified, criticism of \nAble and thus, to a lesser degree, of TWK. Up front, I think it is the best \nbook published so far in this new century, one of the best coming oif age \nbooks since Rudyard Kipling blessed the world with Kim.\n\nTo me, Able was telling the tale ex post facto and not hiding any of his \nerrors or sins. To me, the ascension to Skai was a reward for one area of \ngrowth/progress. To me, the return was for completion ( or as my wife tells \nme, closure). To me, the justification, beyond the take away the breath \nscenes, beyond the personal growth he led or inspired or acted as a catalyst \nfor Puck and Uns and Svon was the scene where in Disiri came for him before \nthe final dustup. Herself begged Able to come back with her to Aelfrice and \nhe said no. And in this one moment in the dark and wind and the dirt Able \nwas justified. He returned to the people to whom he had assumed, even if it \nwere for Disiri's sake, duty and obligation. And he met those obligations. \nAnd in denying/turning down the ascent, for a second time, to Skai Able \nbecame more. To a collector of trophies or a scorekeeper, Able became less \nbecause he \"descended\". Because he accepted his cup, \"do what you can or \nelse do what you must\", Michael from beyond Skai has come for him and his \nlover that his love has made able to ascend. So, to me this book was about \ngrowth and the greater rewards gained than would have been from the \"simple\" \ncompletion of the task.\n\nAs an aside, or because I couldn't figure out where to put it in my \nmeanderings above, throughout TWK I was reminded again and again of the \nscene in Zelazny's Lord of Light where Sam told Taraka that he fought him \nbecause he was a man, and being a man sometimes did aspire to more than the \nbelly and the phallus." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Cliff Judge", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-12T14:24:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Able and allowed", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/12/07, Bob Miller wrote:\n\n\n\nThere is and has been a lot of legitimate, quite justified, criticism of\nAble and thus, to a lesser degree, of TWK. Up front, I think it is the\nbest\nbook published so far in this new century, one of the best coming oif age\nbooks since Rudyard Kipling blessed the world with Kim.\n\nTo me, Able was telling the tale ex post facto and not hiding any of his\nerrors or sins. To me, the ascension to Skai was a reward for one area of\ngrowth/progress. To me, the return was for completion ( or as my wife\ntells\nme, closure). To me, the justification, beyond the take away the breath\nscenes, beyond the personal growth he led or inspired or acted as a\ncatalyst\nfor Puck and Uns and Svon was the scene where in Disiri came for him\nbefore\nthe final dustup. Herself begged Able to come back with her to Aelfrice\nand\nhe said no. And in this one moment in the dark and wind and the dirt Able\nwas justified. He returned to the people to whom he had assumed, even if\nit\nwere for Disiri's sake, duty and obligation. And he met those\nobligations.\nAnd in denying/turning down the ascent, for a second time, to Skai Able\nbecame more. To a collector of trophies or a scorekeeper, Able became\nless\nbecause he \"descended\". Because he accepted his cup, \"do what you can or\nelse do what you must\", Michael from beyond Skai has come for him and his\nlover that his love has made able to ascend. So, to me this book was\nabout\ngrowth and the greater rewards gained than would have been from the\n\"simple\"\ncompletion of the task.\n\nAs an aside, or because I couldn't figure out where to put it in my\nmeanderings above, throughout TWK I was reminded again and again of the\nscene in Zelazny's Lord of Light where Sam told Taraka that he fought him\nbecause he was a man, and being a man sometimes did aspire to more than\nthe\nbelly and the phallus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just really liked how the Odin type was just suddenly THERE with a single\nsentence at the end, and he was like, \"You have done.\" That was some\nhigh-quality stuff right there." } ] } ] }