{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4833", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4833, "subject": "The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "messages": 72, "voices": 25, "first": "2007-05-28T18:28:29+00:00", "last": "2007-06-12T14:22:27+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-05-28T18:28:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe\", by John Farrell, is finally \navailable in the online archives of First Things magazine.\n\nFarrell makes the common mistake of identifying Jesus with the \nConciliator, and he smears Gaiman and Stephenson by mentioning them \nin the same clause as Robert Jordan, but this is an otherwise worthy \narticle." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=5466\n\nLots of novel readers from the highest brow to the lowest nod \npolitely when the science-fiction writer Gene Wolfe is mentioned. But \neven among science-fiction fans, one gets the sense that they’re \nsaying, “Yes, yes, we know how good he is, but we’d rather talk about \nsuch bestselling authors as Neil Gaiman or Robert Jordan, Laurel \nHamilton or Neal Stephenson.” As Glenn Reynolds, the inveterate \nscience-fiction enthusiast and popular blogger of Instapundit.com, \nrecently wrote, “Gene Wolfe is a superb writer, but I’m not crazy \nabout his storytelling.” I recently asked a veteran New York editor \nwhether Wolfe could find a publisher today if he were just coming \nalong as a young writer. “Probably not,” she admitted. His writing is \ntoo religious, too difficult, and too strange.\n\nBoth the Soldier cycle and the Book of the New Sun series reveal the \nproblem and the promise of Gene Wolfe. The New Sun series, for \ninstance, takes place in a world more than a million years in the \nfuture, where artifacts of Christ still have healing power, while the \nSoldier novels chronicle the life of a mercenary bedeviled by gods \nand goddesses in the Mediterranean world a few centuries before the \nbirth of Jesus." } ] }, { "message_id": "<200705290726.29493.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-05-29T11:26:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday 28 May 2007 14:28, Matthew King wrote:\n\"The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe\", by John Farrell, is finally\navailable in the online archives of First Things magazine.\n\nFarrell makes the common mistake of identifying Jesus with the\nConciliator, and he smears Gaiman and Stephenson by mentioning them\nin the same clause as Robert Jordan, but this is an otherwise worthy\narticle.\n\n--\nhttp://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=5466" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Worthy? Really? While the only factual error I can point to is the one you \npointed out - the conflation of the Concilliator with Christ - I can't \nimagine a much more misleading summary of TBOTNS. His descriptions of other \nworks seem to completely miss the mark as well. For a quick example, he \nsays \"Peace\" is \"...[Wolfe's] only mainstream novel (also one of his personal \nfavorites), about a wealthy old man who builds museum-style rooms in his \nmansion to match the rooms from houses of his past life.\" Again, factually \naccurate but that hardly describes the novel I read. YMMV, of course." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-05-29T15:26:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<200705290726.29493.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Over and over I read articles like this and I feel like the reviewers\naren't reading the same books I'm reading.\n\nIt almost makes me doubt my ability to read. I'm I deluded? Or is\nthis guy pretty much completely missing--I won't say \"the point\"\nbecause I don't think there's a single point to any of Wolfe's\nbooks--missing what's valuable and worthwhile about the books he\nmentions?\n\nI wonder how Wolfe feels." } ] }, { "message_id": "<810B5BBE-9B32-40E0-9586-0AD75D2768A1@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-05-29T16:00:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<200705290726.29493.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 29, 2007, at 6:26 AM, Daniel D Jones wrote:\nWorthy? Really? While the only factual error I can point to is \nthe one you\npointed out - the conflation of the Concilliator with Christ - I can't\nimagine a much more misleading summary of TBOTNS. His descriptions \nof other\nworks seem to completely miss the mark as well. For a quick \nexample, he\nsays \"Peace\" is \"...[Wolfe's] only mainstream novel (also one of \nhis personal\nfavorites), about a wealthy old man who builds museum-style rooms \nin his\nmansion to match the rooms from houses of his past life.\" Again, \nfactually\naccurate but that hardly describes the novel I read. YMMV, of course." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is the article illuminating for long-time readers of Wolfe? \nDecidedly not. I do think it has worth, merit, or value, and is \nuseful. At a minimum, the article introduces Wolfe to an audience \nthat I think would not normally stumble across his work. Shall we \nbrace ourselves for an onslaught of High Church conservatives? (First \nThings has always tried to be more ecumenical, and mostly succeeded, \nuntil the original editor stepped down last year. The Wolfe article \nwas published just after I let my subscription lapsed. I try not to \ntake this as a reprimand)\n\nSome of my perception of the article may come from lowered \nexpectations. Outside of this list, I rarely come across any \ninsightful discussions of Wolfe, as Michael Straight just wrote.\n\nI do like the article's emphasis on the Soldier books. _Mist_ is the \nbook that hooked me for Wolfe, after _New Sun_ nearly chased me away. \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<73EA1E24-81D2-486F-9BDD-D78FADE0F340@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-05-29T16:08:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 29, 2007, at 10:26 AM, Michael Straight wrote:\nOver and over I read articles like this and I feel like the reviewers\naren't reading the same books I'm reading.\n\nIt almost makes me doubt my ability to read. I'm I deluded? Or is\nthis guy pretty much completely missing--I won't say \"the point\"\nbecause I don't think there's a single point to any of Wolfe's\nbooks--missing what's valuable and worthwhile about the books he\nmentions?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These reviewers aren't equipped to read fiction in the way that we \nread Wolfe. I wasn't so equipped when I began, and I'm still far too \nimpatient to be much good at it.\n\nWhy do such readers enjoy paddling about with Wolfe, only vaguely \naware, if at all, of the vasty deep below?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<739190.56543.qm@web36909.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-05-29T19:44:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Michael Straight wrote:\nbooks--missing what's valuable and worthwhile about\nthe books he\nmentions?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm curious what you might mention as valuable and\nworthwhile when trying to convince people to read\nWolfe. I say this only partly to ask what you feel\nthis reviewer omits. But it's also because I've had\ntrouble myself summarizing all that I find compelling\nabout him when suggesting that others read him.\n\n-Craig" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Michael Straight wrote:\nOver and over I read articles like this and I feel\nlike the reviewers\naren't reading the same books I'm reading.\n\nIt almost makes me doubt my ability to read. I'm I\ndeluded? Or is\nthis guy pretty much completely missing--I won't say\n\"the point\"\nbecause I don't think there's a single point to any\nof Wolfe's\nbooks--missing what's valuable and worthwhile about\nthe books he\nmentions?\n\nI wonder how Wolfe feels.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-05-29T20:57:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<739190.56543.qm@web36909.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is my first post here, although I have read the list for a couple of\nyears now. Anyway, I came across a website devoted to a podcast called\n\"Starship Sofa\". I saw that one of their shows was about Gene Wolfe, so\nnaturally, I was interested. I clicked the link to listen and was amazed by\ntheir sheer ignorance of anything pertaining to Wolfe. One of the guys says\nhe's read Fifth Head and the other says nothing. All of the info they had\nwas reproduced from the same old articles and interviews found on the web.\nThey had absolutely nothing new to add, and actually gave some negative\nreviews of some of his work, which would be okay if they'd actually read\nthese works (which is doubtful) They should really try to do a better job,\nIMO. If you are interested in hearing this, just google the words \"starship\nsofa\" and click the links as I can't remember the exact URL. Just horrible\nstuff, and yes, I want to share it all with you guys. Sorry if there are\nfans of the podcast here whom I have offended. I meant no harm. On 5/29/07," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Craig Brewer wrote:\n--- Michael Straight wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "books--missing what's valuable and worthwhile about\nthe books he\nmentions?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm curious what you might mention as valuable and\nworthwhile when trying to convince people to read\nWolfe. I say this only partly to ask what you feel\nthis reviewer omits. But it's also because I've had\ntrouble myself summarizing all that I find compelling\nabout him when suggesting that others read him.\n\n-Craig\n\n\n\n--- Michael Straight wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Over and over I read articles like this and I feel\nlike the reviewers\naren't reading the same books I'm reading.\n\nIt almost makes me doubt my ability to read. I'm I\ndeluded? Or is\nthis guy pretty much completely missing--I won't say\n\"the point\"\nbecause I don't think there's a single point to any\nof Wolfe's\nbooks--missing what's valuable and worthwhile about\nthe books he\nmentions?\n\nI wonder how Wolfe feels.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200705291816.47426.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-05-29T22:16:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<810B5BBE-9B32-40E0-9586-0AD75D2768A1@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday 29 May 2007 12:00, Matthew King wrote:\nOn May 29, 2007, at 6:26 AM, Daniel D Jones wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Worthy? Really? While the only factual error I can point to is\nthe one you\npointed out - the conflation of the Concilliator with Christ - I can't\nimagine a much more misleading summary of TBOTNS. His descriptions\nof other\nworks seem to completely miss the mark as well. For a quick\nexample, he\nsays \"Peace\" is \"...[Wolfe's] only mainstream novel (also one of\nhis personal\nfavorites), about a wealthy old man who builds museum-style rooms\nin his\nmansion to match the rooms from houses of his past life.\" Again,\nfactually\naccurate but that hardly describes the novel I read. YMMV, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is the article illuminating for long-time readers of Wolfe?\nDecidedly not. I do think it has worth, merit, or value, and is\nuseful. At a minimum, the article introduces Wolfe to an audience\nthat I think would not normally stumble across his work. Shall we\nbrace ourselves for an onslaught of High Church conservatives? (First\nThings has always tried to be more ecumenical, and mostly succeeded,\nuntil the original editor stepped down last year. The Wolfe article\nwas published just after I let my subscription lapsed. I try not to\ntake this as a reprimand)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't expect any sort of illumination. However, if I read that article and \npicked up the BOTNS expecting to read an uplifting story of redemption about \na man who was raised as a torturer, found artifacts of Jesus Christ and \nworked miracles with them, and became king and abolished the evil torturers \nguild which spawned him, I'd be thoroughly confused and wondering if I'd \npicked up the wrong book. Yes, all of these things happen (other than the \nJC/Concilliator confusion) but that doesn't change the fact that the summary \nis wildly misleading. Assuming that the goal is to enlarge Wolfe's \nreadership and appreciation, is it really helpful to spread such inaccuracies \nand set up expectations that will almost certainly be disappointed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some of my perception of the article may come from lowered\nexpectations. Outside of this list, I rarely come across any\ninsightful discussions of Wolfe, as Michael Straight just wrote." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Other than remote corners of cyberspace such as this one, I rarely come across \nany insightful discussion of any authors other than a handful of mainstream \nnames. There are authors who receive a great deal more press than Wolfe, but \nrarely is it insightful or illuminating." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do like the article's emphasis on the Soldier books. _Mist_ is the\nbook that hooked me for Wolfe, after _New Sun_ nearly chased me away." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "BOTNS was the first Wolfe series I read. (It was almost the first Wolfe \nperiod. I'd actually read \"The Death of Doctor Island\" in an anthology long \nbefore, but didn't recall the name of the author.) That series led me to \nread everything by him I could get my hands on. The Soldier series are good, \nbut they wouldn't have inspired me to stock my bookshelves with his stuff. \nThe Long and Short Sun series are also good, but I don't find the story near \nas compelling as the New Sun stuff. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<870361.84628.qm@web63908.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Recursive Loop", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-01T12:33:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now, **this** is funny:\n\n\"I recently asked a veteran New York editor whether Wolfe could find a publisher today if he were\njust coming along as a young writer. ?Probably not, she admitted. His writing is too religious,\ntoo difficult, and too strange.\"\n\nHeaven forbid that we request readers to actually **think**, now! \n\nWhy didn't she just say \"He's conservative, I'm a hip left-leaning NY publisher and I can't see\npast the end of my viewpoint!\"\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-01T13:37:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<870361.84628.qm@web63908.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I also thought this was ridiculous. One editor's opinion does little to\nconvince me. I think Wolfe would be published no matter when he began\nsubmitting. The comment about his writing being too strange also kills me.\nWhat about the guy who wrote Fight Club and Guts? (Can't remember his name\nat the moment) I suppose this editor thinks that his stuff is normal. And\nas far as Wolfe's writing being too religious, I disagree. I think for most\npeople, the religion in his work is there, but it is subtle and never\ndominates. If you go into Wolfe's work looking for examples of his beliefs,\nthen you will find them, IMO. Then again, you could go into Wolfe's work\nlooking for examples of just about anything and most likely find it. Just\nmy $0.02" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/1/07, Recursive Loop wrote:\nNow, **this** is funny:\n\n\"I recently asked a veteran New York editor whether Wolfe could find a\npublisher today if he were\njust coming along as a young writer. \"Probably not,\" she admitted. His\nwriting is too religious,\ntoo difficult, and too strange.\"\n\nHeaven forbid that we request readers to actually **think**, now!\n\nWhy didn't she just say \"He's conservative, I'm a hip left-leaning NY\npublisher and I can't see\npast the end of my viewpoint!\"\n\n\n\n\n\n\n____________________________________________________________________________________\nGot a little couch potato?\nCheck out fun summer activities for kids.\n\nhttp://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4660485C.5010006@charter.net>", "from": { "name": "JWillard", "address": "aldenweer at charter.net" }, "date": "2007-06-01T16:25:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<870361.84628.qm@web63908.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Recursive Loop wrote:\nNow, **this** is funny:\n\n\"I recently asked a veteran New York editor whether Wolfe could find a publisher today if he were\njust coming along as a young writer. “Probably not, she admitted. His writing is too religious,\ntoo difficult, and too strange.\"\n\nHeaven forbid that we request readers to actually **think**, now! \n\nWhy didn't she just say \"He's conservative, I'm a hip left-leaning NY publisher and I can't see\npast the end of my viewpoint!\"\n\n\n\n\n \n____________________________________________________________________________________\nGot a little couch potato” \nCheck out fun summer activities for kids.\nhttp://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10706011655.AA02794@slack.com>", "from": { "name": "David DiGiacomo", "address": "david at slack.com" }, "date": "2007-06-01T16:55:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4660485C.5010006@charter.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the veteran New York editor is mistaken. Maybe she would not be\nable to sell her publisher on a young Gene Wolfe, but David Hartwell would\nhave no problem with it.\n\nHmm, it would be a good story... young Gene Wolfe travels in time from the\nKorean War to 2007, and looks for a publisher. There would be a scene\nwhere he beats old Gene Wolfe with a stick, and learns a lesson." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "JBarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-06-01T17:00:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<10706011655.AA02794@slack.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 6/1/2007 9:56:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, \ndavid at slack.com writes:\n\nI think the veteran New York editor is mistaken. Maybe she would not be\nable to sell her publisher on a young Gene Wolfe, but David Hartwell would\nhave no problem with it.\n\n\n\nBut it's arguable that it's precisely the influence of writers like Wolfe \nthat would prompt Hartwell to pick up \"Wolfe\" if he was writing today. No \npast-Wolfe, no present market for Wolfe perhaps?\n \nJohn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<213839.44677.qm@web63903.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Recursive Loop", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-01T17:01:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<10706011655.AA02794@slack.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Gene Wolfe is too difficult for readers, I hate to hear the reception that Young Herman\nMelville or Young John Dos Passos or Young Philip K. Dick or Young Samuel R. Delany, etc., etc.,\netc. would meet in today's market.\n\nMust every book today be of the weight of a Grisham or a Star Trek/Star Wars media tie-in or a\nHarry Potter clone? \n\nHeck, I like easy books. But not all the time. I like challenging books. But not all the time. I\nwon't exclude either category entirely!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2CAB3928-4A9F-4507-A8CA-8B35C869BA6A@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-01T17:01:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<10706011655.AA02794@slack.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 1, 2007, at 11:55 AM, David DiGiacomo wrote:\nHmm, it would be a good story... young Gene Wolfe travels in time \nfrom the\nKorean War to 2007, and looks for a publisher. There would be a scene\nwhere he beats old Gene Wolfe with a stick, and learns a lesson." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then he would clone a series of David Hartwells, and send them off on \nslowships to found colonies where SF could thrive." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "JBarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-06-01T17:07:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<2CAB3928-4A9F-4507-A8CA-8B35C869BA6A@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 6/1/2007 10:02:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, \nautomatthew at gmail.com writes:\n\nThen he would clone a series of David Hartwells, and send them off on \nslowships to found colonies where SF could thrive.\n\n\n\nNah. He'd clone himself. And that son would clone HIMself. And so on ... \nuntil one of those, living with his sister on a French-speaking planet, has a \nson he calls \"Number 5.\"\n \nJohn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<254607.78431.qm@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-01T17:14:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like to remain optimistic and think that a great\nwriter can find a market in any period. Were Wolfe\nwriting right (oh yeah) now as a young man he would\nproduce something entirely different than the pulp\ninformed, Tolkien and Graves influenced works we\nappreciate. It's faulty logic to try to imagine his\npast works as new releases in our present.\n\nDon\n\np.s. Cry, Theanthropos, cry.\n\n\n\n--- JBarach at aol.com wrote:\n\n No " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "past-Wolfe, no present market for Wolfe perhaps?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Evangelists: a Lesser Apocrypha http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=178109961\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370706011252q12e4835eq2377dd7ca6393be2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-01T19:52:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/1/07, aaron wrote:\nI also thought this was ridiculous. One editor's opinion does little to\nconvince me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Though it is one editor's opinion, I think it is the opinion of an\neditor who is clearly cognizant of the realities of the industry.\nThings have changed significantly with the conglomeratization\nof publishing; risky books don't get published as much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What about the guy who wrote Fight Club and Guts? (Can't remember his name\nat the moment)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chuck Pahlaniuk (sp?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And\nas far as Wolfe's writing being too religious, I disagree. I think for most\npeople, the religion in his work is there, but it is subtle and never\ndominates. If you go into Wolfe's work looking for examples of his beliefs,\nthen you will find them, IMO." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the first Wolfe I ever read was tBotNS, as it came out, and I knew\nnothing about at the time. Halfway through the third volume (specifically,\nat the \"Temptation in the Wilderness\" scene) I said, \"This guy is a Christian.\"\n\nI think that one misses a lot of what Wolfe is doing if one doesn't know\nthat he's a Catholic, with a strongly \"incarnationalist\" perspective." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joel Sieh", "address": "joel.sieh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-01T20:08:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<254607.78431.qm@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm glad I came back to read this thread after checking out that article.\nIt left me cold, and I was hoping I wasn't the only one.\n\nNew Sun is what got me into GW, and I discovered so much more when I started\nreading this list years ago (just resubscribed and started reading it\nagain). The Soldier books didn't hold me quite as well as all the Sun\nbooks, but I really enjoyed Soldier of Sidon.\n\nI've talked up Wolfe to a number of people, and I've come across some people\nwho just didn't get tBotNS.... I was originally confused by them, but I\nguess it just comes down to how hard you want to think about what you're\nreading. For a while I thought that Gene Wolfe was a writer for writers.\nI'm an aspiring sci-fi author, so this fit nicely with my world view.\nHowever, when I tried to write like Wolfe in my creative writing classes in\ncollege, I found that my fellow classmates and teachers missed all of the\nclues in my stories that might imply an underlying idea or theme. I\ndetermined that I was being too subtle, or just writing poorly in general.\nHowever, it's also possible that I was wrong about Gene Wolfe being a writer\nfor writers. He's more than that. He's a writer for puzzle solvers. :)\n\n--Joel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370706011549y538939c6ja4920d188772cf41@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-01T22:49:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Joel,\n\nAs another \"aspiring writer\" (a few short story sales to my name, some\nyears ago), I have also found Wolfe a problematic model. He's easy to\nparody but hard to pastiche, if you see what I mean.\n\nI'm not sure about him being a \"writer for puzzle solvers\" -- though I do\nenjoy crosswords, anacrostics, sudoku, etc. I think he's a writer for people\nwho want their fiction to resemble the \"real\" world in its being both\noverdetermined and underdetermined." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." } ] }, { "message_id": "<200706012111.39442.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-06-02T01:11:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<870361.84628.qm@web63908.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Friday 01 June 2007 08:33, Recursive Loop wrote:\nNow, **this** is funny:\n\n\"I recently asked a veteran New York editor whether Wolfe could find a\npublisher today if he were just coming along as a young writer. ?Probably\nnot, she admitted. His writing is too religious, too difficult, and too\nstrange.\"\n\nHeaven forbid that we request readers to actually **think**, now!\n\nWhy didn't she just say \"He's conservative, I'm a hip left-leaning NY\npublisher and I can't see past the end of my viewpoint!\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because that has nothing to do with it.\n\nThe world today is very different from what it used to be. Publishing today \nis a business, and solely a business. Publishers publish books because they \nthink they can sell enough of them to turn a profit. Artistic considerations \nplay little or no role in the decision of whom to publish. There may be a \nfew small exceptions out there, but they aren't significant in the publishing \nworld.\n\nIt's not an insult to Wolfe to say that Wolfe does not have mainstream appeal. \nEven with the fact that he's been publishing for years and has a loyal, \ndevoted and vocal fan club, his books don't do particularly well from the \nperspective of a publisher's bottom line. Without the reputation he's built \nover the years, his books would sell even fewer copies. How many people here \ncan honestly say they'd have bought a copy of The Wizard and The Knight if \nthey'd never heard of Wolfe and stumbled upon a blurb on Amazon or seen the \nbook sitting in a bookstore? I think it's doubtful that I would have.\n\nI suspect that, even among Wolfe's fans, very few would describe one of his \nbooks as a fun read. It's an intense, rewarding and often illuminating \nexperience, but it's seldom enjoyable in the same sense as reading, say, \nGeorge R R Martin or even fluff like David Eddings. And reading today \ncompetes with video games and reality television and Ultimate Fighting \nmatches for attention. \n\nIf you wish to lament what the editor's comments say about the world we live \nin, I'll add my voice to the chorus. But if you want to pretend it isn't \naccurate because you dislike those implications, I'll have to disagree." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001401c7a52e$92e1d1e0$41cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-06-02T15:56:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<200706012111.39442.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel D Jones quoted Matthew King and wrote:\nI do like the article's emphasis on the Soldier books. _Mist_ is the\nbook that hooked me for Wolfe, after _New Sun_ nearly chased me away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "BOTNS was the first Wolfe series I read. (It was almost the first Wolfe\nperiod. I'd actually read \"The Death of Doctor Island\" in an anthology\nlong\nbefore, but didn't recall the name of the author.) That series led me to\nread everything by him I could get my hands on. The Soldier series are\ngood,\nbut they wouldn't have inspired me to stock my bookshelves with his stuff.\nThe Long and Short Sun series are also good, but I don't find the story\nnear\nas compelling as the New Sun stuff." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(Daniel D. Jones, in a subsequent post, has anticipated some of my points or\nat least implied them, but I'll say this anyway.)\n\nIt's funny how tastes differ even among those who read Wolfe. As I've\nprobably said before, PEACE was my first read, twenty-five years ago. I\nloved it. SHADOW was my second. It so thoroughly disgusted me all the way\naround that I actually got rid of the book. When CLAW came out, I had to buy\nSHADOW and read it again. My reaction mellowed, but if not for the\n'redeeming' qualities of the other \"mid-Western\" novels (and some of the\nshort stories), I might not have bothered to finish the series. I've lost\ntrack now of how many times I've read the series, but I still look down my\nnose at Severian the World Savior.\n\nI never liked the SOLDIER books (Wolfe's plots are hard enough to follow\nwithout having the protagonist wake up in a new world every morning), and\nI've stubbornly refused to read SIDON even though I've had it since it came\nout, partly because I don't look forward to reading the first two books\nagain, and I would have to. I really wish that Wolfe, given his age, had not\ntaken up the series again, though I believe I am probably in the minority." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From time to time people here have lamented their lack of success in getting\nfriends and relatives to read Wolfe. My experience is the same. My wife has\nread the majority of his work, but I wouldn't call her a fan. She read NEW\nSUN and LONG SUN, but found the latter so boring she wouldn't even start\nSHORT SUN. My older son finally read NEW SUN a few years ago but couldn't\nfinish URTH. My younger son read some of the mid-Western novels and some of\nthe short stories when he was in college, but wasn't impressed. And so it\ngoes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Our sons grew up with reading parents in a house full of books, and my wife\nand I have for many years had a practice of reading favorite books/authors\naloud. Both sons have fond memories of those readings. Wolfe's work does\nnot, generally speaking, lend itself well to being read out loud,\nparticularly the serial novels. I doubt that statement requires explication\nin this forum. This want of fluid readability, coupled with the narrative\nlacunae (such as the one between SHADOW and CLAW, or the twenty years that\nlapsed for Able between KNIGHT and WIZARD), makes his work difficult to\nfollow without a lot of back tracking. Most people who read fiction read for\npleasure, and most people, I think, do not find reading Wolfe pleasurable.\nThat, in a nut shell, is why Wolfe fans have so much trouble turning other\npeople on to him. It is why his books do not sell particularly well even\nwithin the genre.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<950681.42159.qm@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-02T16:50:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<001401c7a52e$92e1d1e0$41cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\n\n Most people" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "who read fiction read for\npleasure, and most people, I think, do not find\nreading Wolfe pleasurable.\nThat, in a nut shell, is why Wolfe fans have so much\ntrouble turning other\npeople on to him. It is why his books do not sell\nparticularly well even\nwithin the genre." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the second time this has come up, and it just\nhasn't felt quite right. I couldn't figure out why, so\nI've been thinking about it and I believe I've at\nleast pinched it between two fingers if I haven't\nquite grasped the answer. I read fiction solely for\npleasure as well. If a novel doesn't grab my interest,\nit doesn't even get 50 pages of my attention anymore.\nI enjoy Wolfe; he draws me into his world and it's\npleasurable to go there. The work comes when I'm\nfinished and have to figure out what's \"really\" going\non. Now, of course I'm not an expert, but I have\nworked on and off in bookstores for about 19 years,\nand from what I've seen, people read for comfort, not\npleasure. They like consistency and repetition, and\nthey like the illusion of feeling like they know\nwhat's going on even before the author does. Maybe\nthat's pleasurable. It's certainly safe, and it\naccounts for 90% of SF, Mystery, and Lit, and all of\nRomance. There's very little comfort in Wolfe, and\nwhat there is is fairly cold, whether it's in the\nplot itself, or in his narrative style. That's at\nleast part of the problem I think, if you want to call\nit a problem. My 2 cents.\n\nDon\n\nDon't cry, Theanthropos. I'm back to bottom posting now.\n\nThe Evangelists: a Lesser Apocrypha http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=178109961\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Megan Bugge", "address": "srapollo at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-02T18:26:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<950681.42159.qm@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20070602/357eb0e2/attachment.htm " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joel Sieh", "address": "joel.sieh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-02T18:34:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<200706012111.39442.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/1/07, Daniel D Jones wrote:\nThe world today is very different from what it used to be. Publishing today\nis a business, and solely a business. Publishers publish books because they\nthink they can sell enough of them to turn a profit. Artistic considerations\nplay little or no role in the decision of whom to publish. There may be a\nfew small exceptions out there, but they aren't significant in the publishing\nworld." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So it goes with all forms of media nowadays, even video games. Some\nvideo game gems are relegated to cult status, either because they are\ndeveloped by a small company without the marketing clout of larger\ncompanies, or they are too \"different\" to attract enough mainstream\ngamers. Even so, some of these manage to make money.\n\nIt's a good thing the internet exists, so we have a convenient way to\naccess alternate media. The only problem is finding the good amongst\nall the junk. :) That said, I can't say I've found too much\nliterature online that has caught my interest, save for old stuff on\nproject gutenberg, and that doesn't really count since it all was\ntraditionally published in the first place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suspect that, even among Wolfe's fans, very few would describe one of his\nbooks as a fun read. It's an intense, rewarding and often illuminating\nexperience, but it's seldom enjoyable in the same sense as reading, say,\nGeorge R R Martin or even fluff like David Eddings. And reading today\ncompetes with video games and reality television and Ultimate Fighting\nmatches for attention." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess I must be one of those few. Fun for me: epiphanies, engaging\nstyle and description, some drama, and when characters do \"cool\"\nthings. Some examples:\n\nStyle: tBotNS hooked me in the first chapter at the bookstore,\nbecause of the style. The way Gene Wolfe uses words, and the old\nlanguage he includes, captures my attention.\n\nDescription: The strange world Wolfe built kept me along through\nShadow and Claw, when some others I know got sick of the series. It's\nalso part of what kept me going through Nightside the Long Sun, which\nwas an otherwise slow read.\n\nDrama: This is what made Sidon better for me than the first two\nSoldier books, even though it was still sparse. His interactions with\nMyt'Ser'eu and his foster daughter engaged me. The drama, pain,\ntragedy, and love expressed in the Long and Short Sun books is what\nmade them entertaining for me.\n\n\"Cool\" moments: The fight scenes in tBotNS, Soldier books, and\nWizard/Knight. They tend to be brief, but brutal and/or flashy, and\nhave the tendency to make the main character look like a bad-ass. I\nknow this counts as \"fluff\", but I like it like I like a good action\nmovie. These scenes, along with scenes such as Severian's various\nresurrections, Able purposefully missing the target in the archery\ncontest only to cause an avalanche, Gylf's transformations, etc.\n\nEpiphanies: These are probably the best parts for me. Dorcas\nvomiting up the lead balls, Severian realizing Dorcas was his\ngrandmother, Severian realizing that the claw saved him in his fight\nwith Agilus, and then later Severian realizing that the claw was\nreally nothing special at all, everything Apu-Punchau, etc. These\nreally entertained me.\n\nI guess it's different for everyone." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joel Sieh", "address": "joel.sieh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-02T18:47:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the subject of Wolfe essays, a friend sent me a link to Neil\nGaiman's blog, where he linked to an essay he wrote about how to read\nGene Wolfe. He also links to some other short essays by people that I\nfelt \"got it.\" One of the essays made me go find and read A Solar\nLabyrinth. My apologies if this has already been posted!\n\nThe link: http://www.neilgaiman.com/journal/2007/03/gene-wolves.html\n\n--Joel" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joel Sieh", "address": "joel.sieh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-02T19:03:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, it's been posted. Sorry about that. And it makes sense that\nthey \"get it,\" being that the essays were featured in the F&SF Wolfe\nappreciation issue.\n\n--Joel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200706021703.46274.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-06-02T21:03:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Saturday 02 June 2007 14:34, Joel Sieh wrote:\nOn 6/1/07, Daniel D Jones wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The world today is very different from what it used to be. Publishing\ntoday is a business, and solely a business. Publishers publish books\nbecause they think they can sell enough of them to turn a profit. \nArtistic considerations play little or no role in the decision of whom to\npublish. There may be a few small exceptions out there, but they aren't\nsignificant in the publishing world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So it goes with all forms of media nowadays, even video games. Some\nvideo game gems are relegated to cult status, either because they are\ndeveloped by a small company without the marketing clout of larger\ncompanies, or they are too \"different\" to attract enough mainstream\ngamers. Even so, some of these manage to make money.\n\nIt's a good thing the internet exists, so we have a convenient way to\naccess alternate media. The only problem is finding the good amongst\nall the junk. :) That said, I can't say I've found too much\nliterature online that has caught my interest, save for old stuff on\nproject gutenberg, and that doesn't really count since it all was\ntraditionally published in the first place." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like you, I haven't found much literature on line that is worth digging into. \nWhat I have found, however, are odd little back alleys and side streets off \nthe information superhighway, like the one we're inhabiting here, where I can \nboth increase my understanding of authors and works I'm already familiar with \nand glean recommendations and pointers to fantastic new stuff that I haven't \nyet discovered. My knowledge and understanding of Wolfe has been increased \nexponentially by this list." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I suspect that, even among Wolfe's fans, very few would describe one of\nhis books as a fun read. It's an intense, rewarding and often\nilluminating experience, but it's seldom enjoyable in the same sense as\nreading, say, George R R Martin or even fluff like David Eddings. And\nreading today competes with video games and reality television and\nUltimate Fighting matches for attention." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I guess I must be one of those few. Fun for me: epiphanies, engaging\nstyle and description, some drama, and when characters do \"cool\"\nthings. Some examples:\n\nStyle: tBotNS hooked me in the first chapter at the bookstore,\nbecause of the style. The way Gene Wolfe uses words, and the old\nlanguage he includes, captures my attention.\n\nDescription: The strange world Wolfe built kept me along through\nShadow and Claw, when some others I know got sick of the series. It's\nalso part of what kept me going through Nightside the Long Sun, which\nwas an otherwise slow read.\n\nDrama: This is what made Sidon better for me than the first two\nSoldier books, even though it was still sparse. His interactions with\nMyt'Ser'eu and his foster daughter engaged me. The drama, pain,\ntragedy, and love expressed in the Long and Short Sun books is what\nmade them entertaining for me.\n\n\"Cool\" moments: The fight scenes in tBotNS, Soldier books, and\nWizard/Knight. They tend to be brief, but brutal and/or flashy, and\nhave the tendency to make the main character look like a bad-ass. I\nknow this counts as \"fluff\", but I like it like I like a good action\nmovie. These scenes, along with scenes such as Severian's various\nresurrections, Able purposefully missing the target in the archery\ncontest only to cause an avalanche, Gylf's transformations, etc.\n\nEpiphanies: These are probably the best parts for me. Dorcas\nvomiting up the lead balls, Severian realizing Dorcas was his\ngrandmother, Severian realizing that the claw saved him in his fight\nwith Agilus, and then later Severian realizing that the claw was\nreally nothing special at all, everything Apu-Punchau, etc. These\nreally entertained me.\n\nI guess it's different for everyone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sure that we all approach Wolfe a bit differently, but please don't \nmisunderstand me to be saying that reading Wolfe isn't enjoyable. It \ncertainly is. But I don't think that \"enjoyable\" and \"fun\" are synonyms. I \nagree with pretty much everything you said above. I love Wolfe's vocabulary \nand, well, call it \"alternate word usage\" in BOTNS. I love his vision. I \noriginally picked up BOTNS because it was compared to Vance's \"Dying Earth\" \nseries. It turns out the comparison was quite weak - the only real \nsimilarity is that both take place in the far future when the sun is \ndeclining. The _feel_ of the world in BOTNS is completely and utterly \nunique. It captured me as very few works ever have and I immediately ordered \neverything by him I could locate. But reading Wolfe is _work_. It's a labor \nof love, but a labor none-the-less. It means tracking down obscure words and \nthen digging into their etymology to figure out what he means. It requires \nnoting minute details and figuring out how they tie together. He demands \nthought and effort and attention.\n\nReaders are becoming a distinct minority. And for most of those who do cling \nto the habit, many or most of them use it as a means of escape and \nrelaxation. They don't want a writer who demands so much of them. Those of \nus who enjoy literature which requires active participation are a minority \nwithin a minority." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2007-06-02T22:04:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<001401c7a52e$92e1d1e0$41cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 2 Jun 2007, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nDaniel D Jones quoted Matthew King and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I do like the article's emphasis on the Soldier books. _Mist_ is the\nbook that hooked me for Wolfe, after _New Sun_ nearly chased me away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "BOTNS was the first Wolfe series I read. (It was almost the first Wolfe\nperiod. I'd actually read \"The Death of Doctor Island\" in an anthology" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's funny how tastes differ even among those who read Wolfe. As I've\nprobably said before, PEACE was my first read, twenty-five years ago. I" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I first read _The Fifth Head_ back in high school, and was blown away by \nthe complexity and density of ideas. I knew I didn't understand half of \nwhat was going on, but you can *taste* that there are layers. I think the \nmental comparison I made at the time was with Borges.\n\nMuch more recently, I recommended tFHoC as a good introduction to Wolfe to \nmy wife (actually I think we might have started reading it aloud), but she \nfound it too cruel, and didn't continue. He actually does write a lot of \nhorror, mixed in with everything else.\n\n\nI still think that if you are going to like Wolfe, you will like tFHoC, \nand it is short ;)\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<18ABFF1F-2850-452F-9B5C-77F131319675@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-02T23:30:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 2, 2007, at 2:34 PM, Joel Sieh wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I suspect that, even among Wolfe's fans, very few would describe \none of his\nbooks as a fun read. It's an intense, rewarding and often \nilluminating\nexperience, but it's seldom enjoyable in the same sense as \nreading, say,\nGeorge R R Martin or even fluff like David Eddings. And reading \ntoday\ncompetes with video games and reality television and Ultimate \nFighting\nmatches for attention." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I guess I must be one of those few. Fun for me: epiphanies, engaging\nstyle and description, some drama, and when characters do \"cool\"\nthings. Some examples:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me too; I always find Wolfe's stories immensely satisfying and fun to \nread. I can't put them down.\n\nGRRM bores me to tears and I haven't been able to finish a single \nnovel of his." } ] }, { "message_id": "<200706031620.12417.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-06-03T20:20:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<200706021703.46274.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Saturday 02 June 2007 17:03, Daniel D Jones wrote:\nReaders are becoming a distinct minority. And for most of those who do\ncling to the habit, many or most of them use it as a means of escape and\nrelaxation. They don't want a writer who demands so much of them. Those\nof us who enjoy literature which requires active participation are a\nminority within a minority." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Replying to my own post, but I recently ran across this blog which really \nbrings home the point I was making. It's a blog, so take it with a grain of \nsalt but there's a link to a Slate article which backs up the essence of what \nit says (although not the actual figures quoted.)\n\nhttp://newpairodimes.blogspot.com/2007/06/u.html" } ] }, { "message_id": "<472456.80742.qm@web32401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-03T20:57:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<200706031620.12417.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, I don't buy it. The guy got his stats from google, and I can tell you that our store, which I won't name, made 4 million dollars last year, two thirds of which were from book sales. People read; we're probably more literate as humans than at any other point in our history, but literacy doesn't equal critical thinking. It may make people feel good to think we're part of a dying breed as readers, the same way that celebrating banned books month makes people feel like they're fighting oppression (even though every book on that list is readily available everywhere in the US every day) but I personally don't believe it's that simple. Or maybe it's simply that the written word is so prevalent that it's not precious anymore. Which is not necessarily a bad thing.\n\nDon\n\nDaniel D Jones wrote: On Saturday 02 June 2007 17:03, Daniel D Jones wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Readers are becoming a distinct minority. And for most of those who do\ncling to the habit, many or most of them use it as a means of escape and\nrelaxation. They don't want a writer who demands so much of them. Those\nof us who enjoy literature which requires active participation are a\nminority within a minority." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Replying to my own post, but I recently ran across this blog which really \nbrings home the point I was making. It's a blog, so take it with a grain of \nsalt but there's a link to a Slate article which backs up the essence of what \nit says (although not the actual figures quoted.)\n\nhttp://newpairodimes.blogspot.com/2007/06/u.html" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200706031853.32365.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-06-03T22:53:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<472456.80742.qm@web32401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sunday 03 June 2007 16:57, don doggett wrote:\nSorry, I don't buy it. The guy got his stats from google, and I can tell\nyou that our store, which I won't name, made 4 million dollars last year,\ntwo thirds of which were from book sales. \nPeople read; we're probably more \nliterate as humans than at any other point in our history, but literacy\ndoesn't equal critical thinking. It may make people feel good to think\nwe're part of a dying breed as readers, the same way that celebrating\nbanned books month makes people feel like they're fighting oppression (even\nthough every book on that list is readily available everywhere in the US\nevery day) but I personally don't believe it's that simple. Or maybe it's\nsimply that the written word is so prevalent that it's not precious\nanymore. Which is not necessarily a bad thing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "According to the US Census Bureau, US book stores have about $16.5 billion in \nsales annually. Not all of that is books, however. Barnes and Noble, for \ninstance, reports their sales at about $4.5 billion, about $2 billion of \nwhich is DVDs, CDs, coffee shop sales, etc. Borders also has substantial \nnon-book sales in their stores. College bookstores are included in those \nfigures, and they frequently sell as much or more in apparel as they do in \nbooks. I'd say that estimating $10 billion annual sales in books is a \ngenerous estimate. Books sales also include magazines, college textbooks, \netc. The US population is around 250 million. That's, on average, $40 per \nperson. I spend that much or more per month on average. That's my share and \n12 or 14 other people's share. I'd guess that most people here spend \nsignificantly over the average as well. (And for those that don't, it's \nlikely more a matter of budget than desire.) There are around 16 million \nstudents enrolled in US colleges and universities. If they average $100 a \nyear on text books (which certainly seems like a low figure to me), that's \nover one and a half billion of the pie there. Take into account the sale of \nnon-fiction book, including various manuals which are, like textbooks, \nsubstantially more expensive than novels. And, of course, figure in how much \nof the total a small group of books (Harry Potter, anyone?) account for and \nyou're left with a small fraction of the population who spends money on \nfiction.\n\nSure, $4 million is a lot of money if it's sitting in your bank account. It's \nnot, however, necessarily indicative of a widespread and thriving book \nmarket." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-04T10:56:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<200706021703.46274.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The gentlemen seem to have hit a \"nerve\" with the responses to the below:\n\n\"Readers are becoming a distinct minority. And for most of those who do \ncling\nto the habit, many or most of them use it as a means of escape and\nrelaxation. They don't want a writer who demands so much of them. Those of\nus who enjoy literature which requires active participation are a minority\nwithin a minority.\"\n\nIt has always been difficult to publish \"thoughtful\" books. The best \nexample (most popular?) was exemplified by an interview I saw with the \noriginal publisher of Lord of the Rings. At the time he had taken over \noperations of the publisher from his father. His estimate was that \npublishing the books would bring them a net loss of 10,000 lb (sorry my \nkeyboard doesn't have the pound symbol). His father wired him back that if \nhe truly thought it was a work of genius he had permission to lose 10,000 \nlb.\n\nAt age 60 I have now been reading this same plaint/observation for more than \n45 years.\n\nThank you aghain for agitating the unused depths of my mind." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-04T18:03:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sheesh. Do we really have to pretend that liking Wolfe proves that\nwe're super-smart and that people who don't are just lazy, not willing\nto do the \"hard work\" that we're willing to do?\n\nReading Wolfe requires a different kind of attention than reading some\nother books, but I wouldn't call it work. I enjoy that kind of\nreading. If I didn't, I wouldn't do it. It doesn't make me morally\nsuperior to someone who doesn't enjoy that kind of reading.\n\nI don't enjoy skateboarding or skeet shooting, but it's not because\nI'm too lazy to do the \"work\" (practice) it would take for me to do\nthose things well. I'm just not interested\n\nRostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "<240081.24607.qm@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-04T18:21:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Michael Straight wrote:\nSheesh. Do we really have to pretend that liking\nWolfe proves that\nwe're super-smart and that people who don't are just\nlazy, not willing\nto do the \"hard work\" that we're willing to do?\n\nReading Wolfe requires a different kind of attention\nthan reading some\nother books, but I wouldn't call it work. I enjoy\nthat kind of\nreading. If I didn't, I wouldn't do it. It doesn't\nmake me morally\nsuperior to someone who doesn't enjoy that kind of\nreading.\n\nI don't enjoy skateboarding or skeet shooting, but\nit's not because\nI'm too lazy to do the \"work\" (practice) it would\ntake for me to do\nthose things well. I'm just not interested" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. It's more that we're suffering from an\nembarassment of riches. Increasing literacy is\nprobably the one thing our public schools have done\nright. And even if the only books a person has read\nare from primary school up through college, that's\nstill a third of a person's life spent reading. Not to\nmention email, web pages, comics (many of which are\nhighly sophisticated- GW's a comics fan I believe.)\nand the crap ton of magazines that come out every year\nthat ought to be online instead of in the landfill.\nThe sky hasn't fallen yet, I think.\n\nDon\n\nThe Evangelists: a Lesser Apocrypha http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=178109961\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-04T19:01:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<739190.56543.qm@web36909.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/29/07, Craig Brewer wrote:\nI'm curious what you might mention as valuable and\nworthwhile when trying to convince people to read\nWolfe. I say this only partly to ask what you feel\nthis reviewer omits. But it's also because I've had\ntrouble myself summarizing all that I find compelling\nabout him when suggesting that others read him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's why this kind of review kinda bothers me, because I feel\nsomewhat at a loss myself to put my finger on why Wolfe is my favorite\nwriter. I'll give it a try. I'd welcome anyone else trying to\narticulate \"Why is Wolfe great?\" or even just \"Why I love Wolfe,\"\nespecially geared toward people who haven't read him before.\n\nBeauty to start with. Wolfe is like one of those actors who could\nread aloud from the phone book and have you on the edge of your seat.\nRemember the scene where Auk explains to Silk how his needler works?\nYou've seen technology info-dumps a million times, and there's\ncertainly nothing new about an electromagnetic railgun, but passage is\na marvel of simplicity - it uses no scientific jargon but explains the\nscientific principles involved in a way a child could understand, and\nat the same time is very convincingly Auk's voice and perspective.\n\nThe last chapter of Soldier of Arete is like a jewel: in the sheer\nbeauty of Pindar's prose; in density so much is said with so few\nwords; and in flashes of light every other sentence illuminating whole\nchapters of what has come before (or will come after).\n\nAnd it's not just beautiful language, but beautiful events - the\nSidhe's dwindling flock of birds, Severian's matter-of-fact charity to\nthe Green Man, Marble's sacrifice for her adopted grand-daughter.\nWolfe's writing is full of these wonderful moments.\n\nOne aspect of that beauty is Wolfe's ability to suggest rather than\ntell. His ability to plant these subtle bombs in the text that will\nlater explode into something weird or wonderful or both. I'll never\nforget the moment I noticed the significance of the elm tree falling\nat the beginning of Peace.\n\nOr the way he can so casually pull the rug out from under you. As when\nNadan mentions that he's gone back and changed stuff in the diary\nyou've been reading.\n\nWolfe's ability to make convincing a certain kind of miraculous wonder\nis right up there with Tolkein. He does this wonderful thing in the\nNew Sun books where you start out thinking you're reading a fantasy\nnovel. But then he subtly convinces you that all these marvels you're\nseeing have a scientific explanation. And then once you've realized\nthat this is the sort of story where miracles don't happen, he shows\nyou one. And so it seems like a genuine miracle, not just another bit\nof fantasy magic.\n\nI think that the games Wolfe plays with narrative voice offer a lot of\ninsight into the way we really know things, particularly for people\nlike me interested in issues of faith. You're never going to to have\na third-person omniscient account of what happened to Silk or Severian\nor Latro. No one ever knows things like that, even though we tell\nourselves those sorts of stories all the time. I think the Outsider is\nreal, not because Wolfe told me so, but because I believe Horn and\nNettle and their children.\n\nI've also mentioned before that I think reading Wolfe's books is a\ngood school in the virtue that C.S. Lewis called \"Preferring the\nGiven.\" Wolfe is constantly setting you up to expect a certain kind of\nstory, making think you're going to see, and want to see, certain\nevents. Then he turns the corner and shows you something completely\ndifferent, gives you a very different story. If you cling to your\nexpectations, you'll be frustrated and miss the good thing that's in\nfront of you because it's not the imagined good you were expecting.\nReal life is like that a lot.\n\nI also think Wolfe has a lot of interesting exploration of the meaning\nand responsibilities of power. His protagonists are, in general,\nmightier than their foes, and their conflicts are often more about\nstruggling with the responsibility of strength than struggling against\nthe limitations of weakness.\n\nWolfe is able to depict Goodness, Kindness, Strangeness, Evil in ways\nthat seem very genuine and insightful to me. I'd try to elaborate,\nbut then I'd never finish this.\n\nAnd of course Wolfe is very intellectually stimulating. For those\nthat enjoy that kind of reading, Wolfe is enormously fun and\nsatisfying. (But, as I said in another post, let's not kid ourselves\nand think that our taste for that kind of thing makes us somehow\nbetter than people who don't care for it.)\n\nRostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Batrinque at aol.com", "address": "batrinque at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-06-04T22:58:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 6/4/2007 6:56:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, \nddjones at riddlemaster.org writes:\n\nInteresting take on what's been said. I'm not sure why you interpret it \nthat \nway, as I don't recall anyone saying that those who don't find Wolfe \nappealing were lazy or unwilling to work. Perhaps it was hidden in the \ntext, \na careful blend of hints and clues that requires multiple readings to ferret \nout the hidden slur. I would have thought that reading Wolfe might have \nsensitized me to such subtleties, but apparently I wasn't sufficiently \nperceptive to notice this subtext.\n\n\n\nYes, we must be sensitive to the \"unreliable narrator\" technique ... \n\nBruce Trinque\nAmston, CT" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200706041900.34628.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-06-04T23:00:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday 04 June 2007 14:03, Michael Straight wrote:\nSheesh. Do we really have to pretend that liking Wolfe proves that\nwe're super-smart and that people who don't are just lazy, not willing\nto do the \"hard work\" that we're willing to do?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting take on what's been said. I'm not sure why you interpret it that \nway, as I don't recall anyone saying that those who don't find Wolfe \nappealing were lazy or unwilling to work. Perhaps it was hidden in the text, \na careful blend of hints and clues that requires multiple readings to ferret \nout the hidden slur. I would have thought that reading Wolfe might have \nsensitized me to such subtleties, but apparently I wasn't sufficiently \nperceptive to notice this subtext." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Reading Wolfe requires a different kind of attention than reading some\nother books, but I wouldn't call it work. I enjoy that kind of\nreading. If I didn't, I wouldn't do it. It doesn't make me morally\nsuperior to someone who doesn't enjoy that kind of reading." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course it's work. Thinking requires effort and expends energy. That's the \nvery definition of work.\n\nDespite our society's Puritanical heritage that might argue otherwise, work \nand enjoyment are not mutually exclusive. Far from it. A significant part \nof what I enjoy is work of some kind or another. Whether it's crafting wood \nprojects in my workshop or writing extensions for Firefox or rebuilding \nmy '78 shovelhead or creating a new recipe, most of the activities which \nengage my time are work. I find them quite enjoyable.\n\nEssentially everyone here could make the same claim. The particular types of \nwork they might mention as examples would undoubtedly be quite different from \nmy list. That doesn't at all make me superior to them, nor them to me. It \nsimply makes us different. Wonderful world, isn't it, that can encompass so \nmuch variety with scarcely any effort at all?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't enjoy skateboarding or skeet shooting, but it's not because\nI'm too lazy to do the \"work\" (practice) it would take for me to do\nthose things well. I'm just not interested" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fortunately, I\"m not aware of any attempt to enforce either practice upon you. \nAbsent such concerns as paying bills and putting food on the table and \nwhatever other personal concerns drive your behavior, you're free to engage \nin whatever pursuits you find enjoyable. One of them appears to be reading \nWolfe. That doesn't make you special in any significant sense, but it does \nput you in a rather small minority. Book sales provide conclusive proof of \nthat." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-05T00:34:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My definition of work: weight X distance X duration X temperature\nMy definition of pleasure: reading Wolfe or Vance on a long rainy day.\nAny other Vance fans subscribe to the list? It seems that many people who\nread Wolfe also read Vance. A generalization, I know, but true in my\nexperience. Any comments?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Batrinque at aol.com", "address": "batrinque at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-06-05T00:52:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 6/4/2007 8:34:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, \naaronsingleton at gmail.com writes:\n\nAny other Vance fans subscribe to the list? \n\n\nYes, although it has been several years since I last read anything of his, \nexcept for an occasional re-read of his \"The Last Castle\" novella. Hmm, I \nmust dig out the Dying Earth and Demon Princes books for another read one of \nthese days.\n \n \nBruce Trinque\nAmston, CT" } ] }, { "message_id": "<868233.82887.qm@web63910.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Recursive Loop", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-05T00:59:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Any other Vance fans subscribe to the list?\"\n\nYou tell me...\n\n\n\n\n\n;)\n\n\"The Dying Earth\" was, as Baen, Drake and Flint put it in a recent anthology, one of those things\nthat Turned the World Upside Down in terms of literary perspective. Great author! Wish I could\nhave afforded that Vance Integral Edition!\n\nFPK3\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-05T01:34:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<868233.82887.qm@web63910.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am glad to see some Vance readers around here. I, too, wish I could\nhave purchased the VIE, and I still sometimes fantasize about having those\nlovely volumes here on my bookshelf. I have heard some negative comments\nregarding these books, however (excepting the price). The man who designed\nthe font used in the books was no pro at typefaces, but only an interested\namateur and Vance fan. I have seen the font and I do not particularly like\nit myself. It doesn't lend itself to long reading sessions and is somewhat\narchaic in appearance. Why they didn't go with an established and\neasy-to-read font is anybody's guess. Alas...\nBut seriously, I read The Dying Earth first, as many others did, then moved\non to his other work. The man is just an amazing writer, but something of\nan acquired taste, it seems. I am a member of the Jack Vance MB, a really\ngreat place to meet other Vance fans. The folks there are so darn nice; two\nmembers mailed me Vance novels that I hadn't read yet just so I could\ndiscuss them on the board. Free of charge and for keeps. Anyway, I\ndiscovered Wolfe through Vance I guess you could say. I think a google\nsearch of The Dying Earth produced a link to a review of TBotNS, and from\nthere I was hooked. I also discovered that Wolfe is a big Vance fan\nhimself. Anyway, I went about a year or so reading nothing but Vance, then\nanother year reading Wolfe almost exclusively. Now it seems like every\nother author I attempt to read are mere beginners compared to these two\ngreats. Now I wish I would have waited to read these two, and 'worked my\nway up', so to speak.\n Also, the other day, I read about the author Michael Shea and how he\nwrote a sequel to The Eyes of the Overworld. He then went on to write a few\nbooks about a character named Nifft the Lean who is said to be Cugel-esque.\nI am intrigued and will probably try to locate a copy of this Nifft the\nLean. Hopefully it will be worthwhile. Any of you guys read Michael Shea?\nAny good? Sorry for the long post guys." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4664C51B.9030304@doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2007-06-05T02:06:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "aaron wrote:\nI am glad to see some Vance readers around here. I, too, wish I could \nhave purchased the VIE, and I still sometimes fantasize about \nhaving those lovely volumes here on my bookshelf. I have heard some \nnegative comments regarding these books, however (excepting the price). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I ordered a copy of the sample volume as a gift for a friend, and it was \nso ugly I almost didn't give it to him. Eventually I came to my senses \nand realized that, like most people, he's not as much of a book design \nsnob as I am and probably would like it fine. But I lost all interest in \nbuying it for myself--I'd rather stick with my paperbacks.\n\nCoincidentally, I re-read the Lyonesse trilogy last week, and enjoyed it \nquite a bit, with a couple of caveats:\n\n--the last book is badly paced--it moves along langorously for the first \nthree-quarters or so, then rushes to fit all the plot points in before \nthe end, going so far as to dispose of a major character off-stage.\n\n--Vance's highly artificial style, especially his dialog consisting \nlargely of exquisitely euphemistic negotiations, gets a little tiresome \nover the course of a long trilogy. One begins to wish for characters \ncapable of ordinary conversation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Also, the other day, I read about the author Michael Shea and how \nhe wrote a sequel to The Eyes of the Overworld. He then went on to \nwrite a few books about a character named Nifft the Lean who is said to \nbe Cugel-esque." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Nifft books are highly entertaining--not as well-crafted as Vance's, \nI would say, but even more bizarrely imaginative." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-05T02:11:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4664C51B.9030304@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--Vance's highly artificial style, especially his dialog consisting\nlargely of exquisitely euphemistic negotiations, gets a little tiresome\nover the course of a long trilogy. One begins to wish for characters\ncapable of ordinary conversation.\n\n\nWho was it that said, \"I like Vance except for his wooden dialogue.\" To\nwhich the other man responded:\n\"Not wooden. Carved.\"\nBut I can understand how it could wear thin on some readers after a long\ntrilogy. Wolfe seems to be much more flexible with his writing than Vance\never was. That is another reason the two writers complement one another so\nwell." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4664C90B.9090109@doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2007-06-05T02:23:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "aaron wrote:\nWolfe seems to be much more flexible with his writing than \nVance ever was." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lyonesse highlighted this as well, as there are several child \ncharacters... all of whom converse in Vance-speak just like the adults.\n\nNot that I don't love it! But like P.G. Wodehouse or single-malt scotch, \nit's best in small doses." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-06-05T07:12:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "aaron writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Any other Vance fans subscribe to the list? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Vance can be very very good, when he takes himself seriously. I first read \nhim as a kid: my only access to SF books was my local library and the only \nVance book in it was THE DYING EARTH. For years I thought he was an \nunknown writer who had produced only one exquisite work. \n\n - hartshorn \n\n \n\n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joel Sieh", "address": "joel.sieh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-05T14:34:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/07, aaron wrote:\nAny other Vance fans subscribe to the list?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Learned about Vance a few years ago from this list, but just started Tales\nof the Dying Earth. It's fun so far. It doesn't have the complexity of\nWolfe's writing, but the language and descriptions are just as rich and\nflavorful, if not more so. When I envision the world Vance describes, it is\nsuper-saturated with color and ornamented with strange debris. I like it.\n\nOne observation.... I've heard that Tolkien's work was a large inspiration\nfor the Dungeon and Dragons tabletop games. Just after reading about 100\npages of Tales of the Dying Earth, I'd say that it looks like the D&D\ncreators took a LOT of inspiration for their magic systems from it, much\nmore than anything they would have gotten from Tolkien. Gandalf's magic was\nmuch more organic, subtle, and undefined than the mechanisms and\ndescriptions (including spell names) I've seen in the book I'm currently\nreading.\n\n--Joel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<603765.2132.qm@web63906.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Recursive Loop", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-05T14:46:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Greetings:\n\n\"One observation.... I've heard that Tolkien's work was a large inspiration for the Dungeon and\nDragons tabletop games.\"\n\nThere were a lot of things that inspired D&D. Vance is one, Tolkien is another. So is Leiber,\n(Lin) Carter, (Edgar Rice) Burroughs and more. Even H.P. Lovecraft. His creations such as Cthulhu\nand others showed up at one point, until TSR got a \"cease and desist\" order. Either Tolkien or his\nestate did the same thing, so \"hobbits\" in early editions became \"halflings\" in later editions,\neven though we all knew what they were...\n\nFPK3\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Rob Thornton", "address": "oblate777 at speakeasy.net" }, "date": "2007-06-05T15:42:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<603765.2132.qm@web63906.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Funny that Vance and D&D are mentioned in the same post. I have heard that Vance is one of the influences on the wizard spells from the original AD&D and I believe them. \n\nThe Prismatic Sphere and the Prismatic Spray are good examples, and I think another 9th level spell is actually taken from him -- can't remember the AD&D name but Vance called it the spell of Forlorn Encystment or something like that.\n\nrob t." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Recursive Loop [mailto:recursive_loop at yahoo.com]\nSent: Tuesday, June 5, 2007 02:46 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe\n\nGreetings:\n\n\"One observation.... I've heard that Tolkien's work was a large inspiration for the Dungeon and\nDragons tabletop games.\"\n\nThere were a lot of things that inspired D&D. Vance is one, Tolkien is another. So is Leiber,\n(Lin) Carter, (Edgar Rice) Burroughs and more. Even H.P. Lovecraft. His creations such as Cthulhu\nand others showed up at one point, until TSR got a \"cease and desist\" order. Either Tolkien or his\nestate did the same thing, so \"hobbits\" in early editions became \"halflings\" in later editions,\neven though we all knew what they were...\n\nFPK3\n\n\n\n \n____________________________________________________________________________________\nSick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's \nComedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. \nhttp://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<67519.71464.qm@web63914.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Recursive Loop", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-05T15:48:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This part of the Wikipedia entry on D&D matches my recollections from the mid-70's when I was\ninvolved in gaming!\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<38607.4932.qm@web32415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-05T16:40:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- Andy Robertson wrote:\n\n I first read " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "him as a kid: my only access to SF books was my\nlocal library and the only \nVance book in it was THE DYING EARTH. For years I\nthought he was an \nunknown writer who had produced only one exquisite\nwork. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a wonderful and beautiful illusion. I felt that\nway when I stumbled upon The Circus of Dr. Lao. After\nreading it I realized it was entirely appropriate that\nit should just drift into my possession.\n\nDon\n\nThe Evangelists: a Lesser Apocrypha http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=178109961\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2007-06-05T16:42:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 5, 2007, at 9:34 AM, Joel Sieh wrote:\nOne observation.... I've heard that Tolkien's work was a large \ninspiration for the Dungeon and Dragons tabletop games. Just after \nreading about 100 pages of Tales of the Dying Earth, I'd say that \nit looks like the D&D creators took a LOT of inspiration for their \nmagic systems from it, much more than anything they would have \ngotten from Tolkien. Gandalf's magic was much more organic, \nsubtle, and undefined than the mechanisms and descriptions \n(including spell names) I've seen in the book I'm currently reading." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gary Gygax says in the appendices to the AD&D v1 DMG (IIRC) that \nDying Earth Magic was the immediate inspiration for the D&D magic \nsystem. I think it's there that he says that DE and Lieber's Nehwon \nstories are the biggest influences.\n\nThere's also an article by Gygax talking about Vance's influence on \nD&D in _The Excellent Prismatic Spray_ issue II. http:// \nwww.dyingearth.com/mag.htm\n\nI have not read it.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<205524.86620.qm@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-05T16:47:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<603765.2132.qm@web63906.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- Recursive Loop wrote:\n\n until TSR got a" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"cease and desist\" order. Either Tolkien or his\nestate did the same thing, so \"hobbits\" in early\neditions became \"halflings\" in later editions,\neven though we all knew what they were..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, at the risk of being labelled a nitpick, they\nare called halflings by the Gondorians. But it appears\nthat it's a \"real\" word that can't be copyrighted.\n\nnerdily yours\n\nDon\n\nThe Evangelists: a Lesser Apocrypha http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=178109961\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<919807.60084.qm@web63912.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Recursive Loop", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-05T16:53:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<205524.86620.qm@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Greetings:\n\n\"Well, at the risk of being labelled a nitpick, they\nare called halflings by the Gondorians. But it appears\nthat it's a \"real\" word that can't be copyrighted.\"\n\nNitpick away! You are exactly right. One word is the invention of the Professor. The other is a\n\"real world word\".\n\nHence the deletion of \"Cthulhu\" and other words from the Monster Manual.\n\nTSR had a good business relationship with Leiber and published supplements based on his works. I\ndon't know if they ever had a deal with Vance. Arkham House eventually sold the rights for gaming\nin Lovecraft's worlds to Chaosium, who did a bang up job with their \"Call of Cthulhu\". LotR has\ngone through multiple incarnations as a licensed property, under various helms.\n\n(Nerdily? Here I am scouring eBay for copies of \"En Garde!\" to incorporate its quasi-roleplaying\naspects into a naval miniatures game called \"Fire As She Bears\". You can't get much nerdier!)\n\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-06-05T17:27:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<38607.4932.qm@web32415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Andy Robertson wrote:\n For years I thought he was an \nunknown writer who had produced only one exquisite\nwork. \n \n\nThat's a wonderful and beautiful illusion. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nIndeed. \n\nI also came across E C Tubb's THE WINDS OF GATH and believed the same thing \nabout **that** book. It's a fine work if you don't know about the 30-odd \nnear-identical sequels \n\nBut we drift off tropic. \n\n\n - hartshorn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<200706051758.18982.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-06-05T21:58:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<919807.60084.qm@web63912.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday 05 June 2007 12:53, Recursive Loop wrote:\nGreetings:\n\n\"Well, at the risk of being labelled a nitpick, they\nare called halflings by the Gondorians. But it appears\nthat it's a \"real\" word that can't be copyrighted.\"\n\nNitpick away! You are exactly right. One word is the invention of the\nProfessor. The other is a \"real world word\".\n\nHence the deletion of \"Cthulhu\" and other words from the Monster Manual." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Although I haven't played in _years_, I still have the Monster Manual which \nincludes creatures from Michael Moorcock's Elric/Immortal Champion series. I \ndon't recall which edition it is - I'm reasonably certain that it isn't the \nfirst - and I'd have to dig through a lot of boxes to find it. But it's \nthere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "TSR had a good business relationship with Leiber and published supplements\nbased on his works. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe I also have a Lankhmar based campaign." } ] }, { "message_id": "<166094C8-D0FF-4ED2-A1D4-8FCEDB7CDE94@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2007-06-05T22:03:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<200706051758.18982.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 5, 2007, at 4:58 PM, Daniel D Jones wrote:\nOn Tuesday 05 June 2007 12:53, Recursive Loop wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hence the deletion of \"Cthulhu\" and other words from the Monster \nManual." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Although I haven't played in _years_, I still have the Monster \nManual which\nincludes creatures from Michael Moorcock's Elric/Immortal Champion \nseries. I\ndon't recall which edition it is - I'm reasonably certain that it \nisn't the\nfirst - and I'd have to dig through a lot of boxes to find it. But \nit's\nthere." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suspect you're thinking of the first printing of Deities and \nDemigods, which contained both Melibone and Cthulhu Mythoi. Since \nTSR never actually licensed the rights from Chaosium to do this, \nthose two mythoi were removed from the second printing.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200706051832.34494.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-06-05T22:32:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<166094C8-D0FF-4ED2-A1D4-8FCEDB7CDE94@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday 05 June 2007 18:03, Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn Jun 5, 2007, at 4:58 PM, Daniel D Jones wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tuesday 05 June 2007 12:53, Recursive Loop wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Hence the deletion of \"Cthulhu\" and other words from the Monster\nManual." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Although I haven't played in _years_, I still have the Monster\nManual which\nincludes creatures from Michael Moorcock's Elric/Immortal Champion\nseries. I\ndon't recall which edition it is - I'm reasonably certain that it\nisn't the\nfirst - and I'd have to dig through a lot of boxes to find it. But\nit's\nthere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suspect you're thinking of the first printing of Deities and\nDemigods, which contained both Melibone and Cthulhu Mythoi. Since\nTSR never actually licensed the rights from Chaosium to do this,\nthose two mythoi were removed from the second printing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ahh! You're right. It is Deities and Demigods, not the Monster Manual. I \nsaid that it had been years....\n\nThanks." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2007-06-07T04:14:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Distant Suns of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 4 Jun 2007, aaron wrote:\nI am glad to see some Vance readers around here. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Also, the other day, I read about the author Michael Shea and how he\nwrote a sequel to The Eyes of the Overworld. He then went on to write a few\nbooks about a character named Nifft the Lean who is said to be Cugel-esque.\nI am intrigued and will probably try to locate a copy of this Nifft the\nLean. Hopefully it will be worthwhile. Any of you guys read Michael Shea?\nAny good? Sorry for the long post guys." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes and yes. I posted a long time ago that Wolfe has a quote from Shea \n(actually from Nifft the Lean) in ?Short Sun.\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-09T17:19:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vance and Tokien as influences on D&D", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/07, aaron wrote:\nAny other Vance fans subscribe to the list?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One observation.... I've heard that Tolkien's work was a large inspiration\nfor the Dungeon and Dragons tabletop games. Just after reading about 100\npages of Tales of the Dying Earth, I'd say that it looks like the D&D\ncreators took a LOT of inspiration for their magic systems from it, much\nmore than anything they would have gotten from Tolkien. Gandalf's magic was\nmuch more organic, subtle, and undefined than the mechanisms and\ndescriptions (including spell names) I've seen in the book I'm currently\n\nGood points and observations. I haven't seen an interview with Dave \nArneson, but Gary Gygax who is the author of most of the first couple \ngenerations of D&D books will tell you that LoTR and Vance's work was, at \nleast. om the back of his mind. Magic item Robe of Eyes in D&D directly \nrelated to one of the short stories. Halflings were originally called \nhobbits and the Tolkien Estate made TSR change the name.\n\nI guess I'm a minority person on Vance. I always thought the Dying Earth \nstories relatively weak beside much, not all, of his other stuff. Of \ncourse, I never did read anything from Cugel's Saga inclusive on." } ] }, { "message_id": "<466AECBD.6050309@hyraxes.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2007-06-09T18:09:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vance and Tokien as influences on D&D", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bob Miller wrote:\nI guess I'm a minority person on Vance. I always thought the Dying Earth \nstories relatively weak beside much, not all, of his other stuff. Of \ncourse, I never did read anything from Cugel's Saga inclusive on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, chacun a son gout, as the French folks say. I've always found \nVance's fantasy stuff to be his best work (with the exception on the SF \nside of of the first couple of Demon Princes novels).\n\nA couple of things to remember about the Dying Earth stories. First, \nthey are just that; the \"novel\" is really just a story collection. The \nCugel books are pretty episodic as well, and were broken up for \npublication; I don't know whether they started as a novel or as a bunch \nof stories. The later things (like \"Fader's Waft\") were also stories. As \nstories they stand pretty tall. Second, keep in mind when the original \nDying Earth stories were published, and compare and contrast against \nwhat else was coming out in the fantasy genre: not much. It was \npost-Unknown, and F&SF was doing contemporary fantasy more than Cabell- \nor Lord Dunsany-influenced works. The only similar things that were \nhappening were Leiber's Grey Mouser stories, also heavily influenced by \nDunsany and Cabell. Howard was already in the past. Vance was a breath \nof fresh air. By today's standards he's a bit mannered, and if you read \na huge chunk of his writing you see the same themes, even the same \nphrasings, pop up again and again.\n\nIn my opinion, D&D was influenced heavily by Vance, Leiber and Howard, \nand of course Tolkien. It goes without saying that contemporary fantasy \ncomputer games are utterly in their debt as well.\n\nDave Lebling, aka vizcacha" } ] }, { "message_id": "<466AEFFA.1080403@doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2007-06-09T18:22:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vance and Tokien as influences on D&D", "in_reply_to": "<466AECBD.6050309@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Lebling wrote:\nIn my opinion, D&D was influenced heavily by Vance, Leiber and Howard, \nand of course Tolkien." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Fletcher Pratt, who I think is less well known than he should be (G. \nG. Kay and G.R.R. Martin owe him plenty)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<185392.91757.qm@web35910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-09T18:34:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vance and Tokien as influences on D&D", "in_reply_to": "<466AEFFA.1080403@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Tim Walters wrote:\nAnd Fletcher Pratt, who I think is less well known\nthan he should be (G. \nG. Kay and G.R.R. Martin owe him plenty)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let's not forget Michael Moorcock and Poul Anderson!\n\nhttp://www.sff.net/people/stilskin\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2007-06-09T19:38:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vance and Tokien as influences on D&D", "in_reply_to": "<466AECBD.6050309@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 9, 2007, at 1:09 PM, Dave Lebling wrote:\nIn my opinion, D&D was influenced heavily by Vance, Leiber and Howard,\nand of course Tolkien. It goes without saying that contemporary \nfantasy\ncomputer games are utterly in their debt as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not that you're, uh, exactly blameless on that score, eh?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<466B088E.6050807@hyraxes.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2007-06-09T20:07:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vance and Tokien as influences on D&D", "in_reply_to": "<185392.91757.qm@web35910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "stilskin wrote:\n--- Tim Walters wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And Fletcher Pratt, who I think is less well known\nthan he should be (G. G. Kay and G.R.R. Martin owe him plenty).\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let's not forget Michael Moorcock and Poul Anderson!\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If we're going that far, we might as well include L. Sprague deCamp as \nwell. The \"Incomplete Enchanter\" stories he wrote with Pratt were one of \nthe highlights of the \"Unknown\" era. I for one always liked deCamp \nbetter than Pratt.\n\nIn any case, the magic system in D&D (and the one in the Zork computer \ngames) was directly stolen from the Dying Earth stories, as was the \ngrue. As the thief in the latter case, I can be sure of that.\n\nDave Lebling, aka vizcacha" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7D22FC1F-FF1E-485F-A5CF-49AB14EDC9E3@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2007-06-10T00:05:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vance and Tokien as influences on D&D", "in_reply_to": "<466B088E.6050807@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 9, 2007, at 3:07 PM, Dave Lebling wrote:\nstilskin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- Tim Walters wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And Fletcher Pratt, who I think is less well known\nthan he should be (G. G. Kay and G.R.R. Martin owe him \nplenty). Let's not forget Michael Moorcock and Poul Anderson!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If we're going that far, we might as well include L. Sprague deCamp \nas well. The \"Incomplete Enchanter\" stories he wrote with Pratt \nwere one of the highlights of the \"Unknown\" era. I for one always \nliked deCamp better than Pratt." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But once we go this far then we need to start considering second-and- \nthird order effects. I mean, OK, so you have Moorcock. Looking back \nyou've got Mervyn Peake, and forward you have M. John Harrison and \nthe whole British crowd of Moorcock-inspired genre authors. Which \nwould bring you to, say, China Mieville, on whom Vance is probably \nmore of a second-order influence by way of Gygax. But of course, to \nbring this back to Wolfe, Mieville is extremely Borges-influenced as \nwell. And also Lewis Carroll; I can't think offhand of anything \nspecifically Carrollian in Wolfe, but I will be amazed if someone on \nthis list can't immediately pipe up with something. (Of course, you \ncould get there via Jasper Fforde, since the Unitary Authority of \nWarrington (formerly Cheshire) Cat is in charge of the Library of \nBabel--and therefore is, of course Master Ultan, and since Cyby is \nWolfe's self-insertion, that might make Thursday Next Gene Wolfe, and \nnow my head has explodiated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In any case, the magic system in D&D (and the one in the Zork \ncomputer games) was directly stolen from the Dying Earth stories, \nas was the grue. As the thief in the latter case, I can be sure of \nthat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Imagine my delight upon finding, early on in _Lolita_, that \nprostitutes were referred to as _grues_. The Great Underground \nEmpire will, I fear, never look quite the same to me.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<466B505D.6080705@hyraxes.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2007-06-10T01:14:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vance and Tokien as influences on D&D", "in_reply_to": "<7D22FC1F-FF1E-485F-A5CF-49AB14EDC9E3@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\nImagine my delight upon finding, early on in _Lolita_, that \nprostitutes were referred to as _grues_. The Great Underground Empire \nwill, I fear, never look quite the same to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aha! The French \"grue\" is \"crane\" (both the bird and the lifting \ndevice). I suspect that's where Nabokov got it (the bird, I would \nsuspect, though I suppose \"lifting device\" might apply as well).\n\nImagine my surprise when I first visited Montreal and found in the \nYellow Pages \"location des grues\" (\"crane rental\"). One hopes they are \nrented only in daylight.\n\nDave Lebling, aka vizcacha" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joel Sieh", "address": "joel.sieh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-10T02:04:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vance and Tokien as influences on D&D", "in_reply_to": "<466B505D.6080705@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At first, I was somewhat embarrassed at bringing up D&D on this list,\nseeing how it was somewhat offtopic and derailed the conversation from\nmatters of Wolfe. However, a lot of interesting posts have come out\nof it (especially Adam's above)! I have very little to add,\nconsidering many of these authors are on my to-read list, but alas\nhave not yet been read." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2007-06-10T03:20:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vance and Tokien as influences on D&D", "in_reply_to": "<466B505D.6080705@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 9, 2007, at 8:14 PM, Dave Lebling wrote:\n\nAdam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Imagine my delight upon finding, early on in _Lolita_, that\nprostitutes were referred to as _grues_. The Great Underground \nEmpire\nwill, I fear, never look quite the same to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aha! The French \"grue\" is \"crane\" (both the bird and the lifting\ndevice). I suspect that's where Nabokov got it (the bird, I would\nsuspect, though I suppose \"lifting device\" might apply as well).\n\nImagine my surprise when I first visited Montreal and found in the\nYellow Pages \"location des grues\" (\"crane rental\"). One hopes they are\nrented only in daylight." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I imagine there's not a lot of repeat business if they aren't.\n\nNow I must write a short work of IF, \"La Grenouille\", in which you \nplay the eponym, just so that I can say (shamelessly pasted from \nGoogle Translate):\n\nVous ?tes susceptibles d'?tre mang?s par une grue.\n\nWhich gets us back to Carroll. Found *what* advisable? I'm afraid I \ncan't find the bridge back to Wolfe, though. What *did* the \narchbishop find?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Iorwerth Thomas", "address": "iorweththomas at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-11T21:07:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vance and Tokien as influences on D&D", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At first, I was somewhat embarrassed at bringing up D&D on this list,\nseeing how it was somewhat offtopic and derailed the conversation from\nmatters of Wolfe. However, a lot of interesting posts have come out\nof it (especially Adam's above)! I have very little to add,\nconsidering many of these authors are on my to-read list, but alas\nhave not yet been read." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wouldn't feel overly bad about it; a while back on this list I referenced \nan Ars Magica supplement in a discussion on the Kabbalah and Severian...\n\nIozz -- plush Cthulhu owner and appalling geek" } ] }, { "message_id": "<434278.23061.qm@web63902.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Recursive Loop", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-12T14:22:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vance and Tokien as influences on D&D", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Greetings:\n\nA humorous look at the Tolkien-D&D links...111 installments worth!!!\n\n\n\nFPK3\n\n\n " } ] } ] }