{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4837", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4837, "subject": "?Tracking Song? (and other stories)", "messages": 8, "voices": 7, "first": "2007-06-06T09:15:28+00:00", "last": "2007-06-07T06:48:42+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Solomon, Joshua", "address": "j.a.solomon at city.ac.uk" }, "date": "2007-06-06T09:15:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ?Tracking Song? (and other stories)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:\n\nWolfe's underworld type-scene: Where does it come from, and what is\nits significance? We have it in \"Tracking Song\" (with the Min), in\nthe mine at Saltus in BotNS (with the ape men), in \"The Eyeflash\nMiracles\" (Little Tib dreams of a cave with gnomes and a Gnome King.\nHere, the reference is also to Munchkinland from _The Wizard of Oz_,\nbut they are in a *cave*, and the Gnome King made me think of Mantru\nfrom \"Tracking Song\".) I'm sure shows up in other places I haven't\nnoticed or don't remember." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You may be onto something here, Matty. Caves also pop up in Fifth Head. My\nmemory of Fifth Head has degraded somewhat, but I think that the\nmythological abo (Sandwalker?) made a pilgrimage to one in \"A Story.\" This\ncave is a thematical doppleganger of Aunt Jeanine's basement room in the\nfirst novella.\n\nj" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Joshua A. Solomon\nhttp://www.staff.city.ac.uk/~solomon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5C692C00-9DD1-4CEE-9490-2CCDF15B47EA@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-06T11:55:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ?Tracking Song? (and other stories)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jun 6, 2007, at 5:15 AM, Solomon, Joshua wrote:\nMatthew Groves wrote:\n\nWolfe's underworld type-scene: Where does it come from, and what is\nits significance? We have it in \"Tracking Song\" (with the Min), in\nthe mine at Saltus in BotNS (with the ape men), in \"The Eyeflash\nMiracles\" (Little Tib dreams of a cave with gnomes and a Gnome King.\nHere, the reference is also to Munchkinland from _The Wizard of Oz_,\nbut they are in a *cave*, and the Gnome King made me think of Mantru\nfrom \"Tracking Song\".) I'm sure shows up in other places I haven't\nnoticed or don't remember." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You may be onto something here, Matty. Caves also pop up in Fifth \nHead. My\nmemory of Fifth Head has degraded somewhat, but I think that the\nmythological abo (Sandwalker?) made a pilgrimage to one in \"A \nStory.\" This\ncave is a thematical doppleganger of Aunt Jeanine's basement room \nin the\nfirst novella." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe often has his characters grope around in complete darkness.\n\nA significant portion of one of the books in Long Sun is spent by a \nmotley assortment of characters wandering around in completely \nlightless caves. One of them naked the entire time." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Knight", "address": "jacobeiserman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-06T20:39:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ?Tracking Song? (and other stories)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, Sandwalker travels to a cave on pilgrimage to meet some sort of wise\nman. Cave scenes also show up in Peace (Weer, his aunt, and Professor\nPeacock rappel down to a cave with some ancient remains) and TWK book one\n(the griffin etc., preceding the fight with the dragon). I don't have any\nanswers on this, but I have noted a number of other common themes throughout\nWolfe's stories, particularly the inclusion of\ndemonic/vampiric/shapeshifting women who are occasional but not completely\ntrustworthy allies.\n\nI believe this is my first post to the board, though I have lurked for some\ntime. Hello, everyone!\n\nMatt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370706061403i3442651ic0878e172c7e7615@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-06T21:03:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ?Tracking Song? (and other stories)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello Matthew!\n\nYes, there are quite a few running images and themes in GW's work,\naside from the obvious genes, wolves, roses, and rosemary, which\nare almost more signatures than thematics. (How cool to have a name\nyou can do that with! I can't figure out how to work a danl or a\ndanehyoakes into my attempts at fiction...)\n\nAnother that appears frequently is a communion feast, which can\nbe either sacramental or blasphemous, or, sometimes, both. (I think, for\nexample, that the feast of the Liege of Leaves is generally a blasphemy\nbut becomes a sacrament on the occasion of Severian's presence.)\n\nAnother that gets some discussion at times >kaff, kaff< is the recurrent\nimage of blue-green world pairs: Ste.Anne/St.Croix, Urth/Lune,\nBlue/Green. Probably others, but those are the most significant.\n\nOne I push at that nobody else seems to see or agree with: the\nembedding of non-Christian cosmologies into a larger Christian\ncosmology, which itself is frequently ambiguous.\n\nCheers,\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/6/07, Matthew Knight wrote:\nYes, Sandwalker travels to a cave on pilgrimage to meet some sort of wise\nman. Cave scenes also show up in Peace (Weer, his aunt, and Professor\nPeacock rappel down to a cave with some ancient remains) and TWK book one\n(the griffin etc., preceding the fight with the dragon). I don't have any\nanswers on this, but I have noted a number of other common themes throughout\nWolfe's stories, particularly the inclusion of\ndemonic/vampiric/shapeshifting women who are occasional but not completely\ntrustworthy allies.\n\nI believe this is my first post to the board, though I have lurked for some\ntime. Hello, everyone!\n\nMatt\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200706061736.16357.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-06-06T21:36:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ?Tracking Song? (and other stories)", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370706061403i3442651ic0878e172c7e7615@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday 06 June 2007 17:03, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nHello Matthew!\n\nYes, there are quite a few running images and themes in GW's work,\naside from the obvious genes, wolves, roses, and rosemary, which\nare almost more signatures than thematics. (How cool to have a name\nyou can do that with! I can't figure out how to work a danl or a\ndanehyoakes into my attempts at fiction...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't forget memory! (No pun intended. Honestly!)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-06-06T22:08:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ?Tracking Song? (and other stories)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Matthew Knight writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, Sandwalker travels to a cave on pilgrimage to meet some sort of wise\nman. Cave scenes also show up in Peace (Weer, his aunt, and Professor\nPeacock rappel down to a cave with some ancient remains) and TWK book one\n(the griffin etc., preceding the fight with the dragon). I don't have any\nanswers on this, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nYes, caves = underworld = world/house of the dead, from the old habit of \nburying everyone in the tribe together in a mound or communal grave. This \nis an ancient and nearly universal mythical pattern. Most of these caves in \nWolfe have the dead in them (the priest Sandwalker meets is a corpse-mummy, \nthe remains in PEACE are human IIRC). Or if not they are underworlds of \nvarious sorts. This is a common pattern in Wolfe's writing but I am not \nsure of its significance - it's a common pattern in nearly all writing. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe this is my first post to the board, though I have lurked for \nsome\ntime. Hello, everyone! \n\nMatt" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Welcome, Matt \n\nhartshorn \n\n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "<184666.7409.qm@web81414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2007-06-07T00:00:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ?Tracking Song? (and other stories)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello all,\n I assume that GW uses events from his life to color his writing, and I'm sure that the Korean War shaped him as a person alot and influenced the battle scenes in BOTNS.\n Wondering if there was underground tunnel warfare in Korea as there was in Vietnam?.....\n \n Stuart\n\nMatthew Knight wrote: Yes, Sandwalker travels to a cave on pilgrimage to meet some sort of wise man. Cave scenes also show up in Peace (Weer, his aunt, and Professor Peacock rappel down to a cave with some ancient remains) and TWK book one (the griffin etc., preceding the fight with the dragon). I don't have any answers on this, but I have noted a number of other common themes throughout Wolfe's stories, particularly the inclusion of demonic/vampiric/shapeshifting women who are occasional but not completely trustworthy allies. \n \n I believe this is my first post to the board, though I have lurked for some time. Hello, everyone!\n \n Matt\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Solomon, Joshua", "address": "j.a.solomon at city.ac.uk" }, "date": "2007-06-07T06:48:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ?Tracking Song? (and other stories)", "in_reply_to": "<184666.7409.qm@web81414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:15:28 +0100\nFrom: \"Solomon, Joshua\" \nMatthew Groves wrote:\n\nWolfe's underworld type-scene: Where does it come from, and what is\nits significance? We have it in \"Tracking Song\" (with the Min), in\nthe mine at Saltus in BotNS (with the ape men), in \"The Eyeflash\nMiracles\" (Little Tib dreams of a cave with gnomes and a Gnome King.\nHere, the reference is also to Munchkinland from _The Wizard of Oz_,\nbut they are in a *cave*, and the Gnome King made me think of Mantru\nfrom \"Tracking Song\".) I'm sure shows up in other places I haven't\nnoticed or don't remember." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You may be onto something here, Matty. Caves also pop up in Fifth Head. My\nmemory of Fifth Head has degraded somewhat, but I think that the\nmythological abo (Sandwalker?) made a pilgrimage to one in \"A Story.\" This\ncave is a thematical doppleganger of Aunt Jeanine's basement room in the\nfirst novella." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(Answering my own post) Nigel (is he still here?) once pointed out that\nWolfe frequently makes reference to Plato's cave and the shadows on its\nwall. The hospital in TAD was being discussed at the time, IIRC.\n\nbee" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Joshua A. Solomon\nhttp://www.staff.city.ac.uk/~solomon" } ] } ] }