Subject: (urth) ?Tracking Song? (and other stories)

From: Solomon, Joshua <j.a.solomon at city.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 09:15:28 +0000

> Matthew Groves wrote:
> 
> Wolfe's underworld type-scene: Where does it come from, and what is
> its significance?  We have it in "Tracking Song" (with the Min), in
> the mine at Saltus in BotNS (with the ape men), in "The Eyeflash
> Miracles" (Little Tib dreams of a cave with gnomes and a Gnome King.
> Here, the reference is also to Munchkinland from _The Wizard of Oz_,
> but they are in a *cave*, and the Gnome King made me think of Mantru
> from "Tracking Song".)  I'm sure shows up in other places I haven't
> noticed or don't remember.

You may be onto something here, Matty. Caves also pop up in Fifth Head. My
memory of Fifth Head has degraded somewhat, but I think that the
mythological abo (Sandwalker?) made a pilgrimage to one in "A Story." This
cave is a thematical doppleganger of Aunt Jeanine's basement room in the
first novella.

j
-- 
Joshua A. Solomon
http://www.staff.city.ac.uk/~solomon

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From: Transentient <transentient at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 11:55:53 +0000

> cave is a thematical doppleganger of Aunt Jeanine's basement room  

Wolfe often has his characters grope around in complete darkness.

A significant portion of one of the books in Long Sun is spent by a  
motley assortment of characters wandering around in completely  
lightless caves. One of them naked the entire time.

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From: Matthew Knight <jacobeiserman at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 20:39:24 +0000

Yes, Sandwalker travels to a cave on pilgrimage to meet some sort of wise
man.  Cave scenes also show up in Peace (Weer, his aunt, and Professor
Peacock rappel down to a cave with some ancient remains) and TWK book one
(the griffin etc., preceding the fight with the dragon).  I don't have any
answers on this, but I have noted a number of other common themes throughout
Wolfe's stories, particularly the inclusion of
demonic/vampiric/shapeshifting women who are occasional but not completely
trustworthy allies.

I believe this is my first post to the board, though I have lurked for some
time.  Hello, everyone!

Matt
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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 21:03:52 +0000

Hello Matthew!

Yes, there are quite a few running images and themes in GW's work,
aside from the obvious genes, wolves, roses, and rosemary, which
are almost more signatures than thematics. (How cool to have a name
you can do that with! I can't figure out how to work a danl or a
danehyoakes into my attempts at fiction...)

Another that appears frequently is a communion feast, which can
be either sacramental or blasphemous, or, sometimes, both. (I think, for
example, that the feast of the Liege of Leaves is generally a blasphemy
but becomes a sacrament on the occasion of Severian's presence.)

Another that gets some discussion at times >kaff, kaff< is the recurrent
image of blue-green world pairs: Ste.Anne/St.Croix, Urth/Lune,
Blue/Green. Probably others, but those are the most significant.

One I push at that nobody else seems to see or agree with: the
embedding of non-Christian cosmologies into a larger Christian
cosmology, which itself is frequently ambiguous.

Cheers,

--Dan'l

On 6/6/07, Matthew Knight <jacobeiserman at gmail.com> wrote:
> _______________________________________________
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-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant
-----
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer
http://www.danehyoakes.com
Soon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,
inexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire
salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards
reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful.

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From: Daniel D Jones <ddjones at riddlemaster.org>
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 21:36:15 +0000

> danehyoakes into my attempts at fiction...)

Don't forget memory!  (No pun intended.  Honestly!)

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 22:08:59 +0000

Matthew Knight writes: 

> answers on this, 

Yes, caves = underworld = world/house of the dead, from the old habit of 
burying everyone in the tribe together in a mound or communal grave.  This 
is an ancient and nearly universal mythical pattern.  Most of these caves in 
Wolfe have the dead in them (the priest Sandwalker meets is a corpse-mummy, 
the remains in PEACE are human IIRC). Or if not they are underworlds of 
various sorts.  This is a common pattern in Wolfe's writing but I am not 
sure of its significance - it's a common pattern in nearly all writing. 

> I believe this is my first post to the board, though I have lurked for 

Welcome, Matt 

hartshorn 

http://www.thenightland.co.uk 

01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545

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From: Stuart Hamm <hammstu at sbcglobal.net>
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 00:00:58 +0000

Hello all,
 I assume that GW uses events from his life to color his writing, and I'm sure that the Korean War shaped him as a person alot and influenced the battle scenes in BOTNS.
 Wondering if there was underground tunnel warfare in Korea as there was in Vietnam?.....
 
 Stuart

Matthew Knight <jacobeiserman at gmail.com> wrote: Yes, Sandwalker travels to a cave on pilgrimage to meet some sort of wise man.  Cave scenes also show up in Peace (Weer, his aunt, and Professor Peacock rappel down to a cave with some ancient remains) and TWK book one (the griffin etc., preceding the fight with the dragon).  I don't have any answers on this, but I have noted a number of other common themes throughout Wolfe's stories, particularly the inclusion of demonic/vampiric/shapeshifting women who are occasional but not completely trustworthy allies. 
  
 I believe this is my first post to the board, though I have lurked for some time.  Hello, everyone!
  
 Matt

Stuart Hamm 
1235B 7th Ave 
San Francisco, CA 94122 
415 786 3624
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From: Solomon, Joshua <j.a.solomon at city.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 06:48:42 +0000

> cave is a thematical doppleganger of Aunt Jeanine's basement room in the

(Answering my own post) Nigel (is he still here?) once pointed out that
Wolfe frequently makes reference to Plato's cave and the shadows on its
wall. The hospital in TAD was being discussed at the time, IIRC.

bee