{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4839", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4839, "subject": "What the elm?", "messages": 11, "voices": 6, "first": "2007-06-06T17:21:05+00:00", "last": "2007-06-07T21:50:44+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<1f7617370706061021l58ab60d9mb061d38f49a33bef@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-06T17:21:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What the elm?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "H'mmm.\n\nSometimes in looking at the way we discuss Wolfe, I am\nreminded of a pair of comments Alan Moore made during\nthe publication of the classic comic, WATCHMEN, which\nhe wrote.\n\nEarly on, he mentioned in an interview that \"everything\" in the\ncomic meant something.\n\nDuring its twelve-month span of publication, there was an\nincredible correspondence on Usenet, in which (it seemed)\nevery single detail of every panel of each issue was\ndissected, compared to details in other panels, etc.\n\nAfter several months of this, Moore said, in another interview,\nthat, while everything in the comic meant something, not\neverything meant *much*.\n\nThis is *not* a put-down to the work Matthew King has done\non the elm. I believe it very likely that Wolfe had at least some\nof this in mind when he chose an elm tree for Weer's grave\ndecoration. The question in my mind, though, is this: how\nmuch does knowing this affect my reading of the book? Does\nknowing the significance of the elm help me to peace, uh,\npiece together the crabbed and mysterious timeline of\nWeer's life; to understand why he is (seemingly) trapped in\nthis particular afterworld; or any of the mysteries associated\nwith the individual accounts?\n\nIf not, then this is a case of \"means something, but not\nmuch.\"\n\nBut, it still means *something* ...\n\n(wanders off, scratching head and pondering the significance\nof short-person behavior in penal-depressive and other\nhighly ambient domains)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BB1A159-5DE4-4650-BE1E-53234D90ABF6@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-06T18:19:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What the elm?", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370706061021l58ab60d9mb061d38f49a33bef@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 6, 2007, at 12:21 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nThis is *not* a put-down to the work Matthew King has done\non the elm. I believe it very likely that Wolfe had at least some\nof this in mind when he chose an elm tree for Weer's grave\ndecoration. The question in my mind, though, is this: how\nmuch does knowing this affect my reading of the book? Does\nknowing the significance of the elm help me to peace, uh,\npiece together the crabbed and mysterious timeline of\nWeer's life; to understand why he is (seemingly) trapped in\nthis particular afterworld; or any of the mysteries associated\nwith the individual accounts?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Knowing (or guessing) the connection to the Aeneid doesn't help in \nthe interpretation of Peace unless Wolfe borrowed much more than just \nan elm. Peace is packed so full of fragmentary and subverted stories \nthat another classical allusion is hardly illuminating.\n\nIf we were to unearth Vergilian (or Dantean) monsters in the \nmenagerie of Weer's musings, or if we find some other Aenean \nanalogue, then perhaps the connection would be more than merely \ninteresting.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370706061131k6f515373u3a0b6b7b5f81636e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-06T18:31:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What the elm?", "in_reply_to": "<4BB1A159-5DE4-4650-BE1E-53234D90ABF6@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/6/07, Matthew King wrote:\nKnowing (or guessing) the connection to the Aeneid doesn't help in\nthe interpretation of Peace unless Wolfe borrowed much more than just\nan elm. Peace is packed so full of fragmentary and subverted stories\nthat another classical allusion is hardly illuminating.\n\nIf we were to unearth Vergilian (or Dantean) monsters in the\nmenagerie of Weer's musings, or if we find some other Aenean\nanalogue, then perhaps the connection would be more than merely\ninteresting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed!\n\nWell, I have suggested before in this forum that ... oh, damn, suddenly\nmy mind is going blank on characters ... the voice Weer hears calling\nhim (over the intercom?) at the \"end\" of the book ... is a psychopomp,\ntrying to lure him forth from his grave/Purgatory to Heaven. There might\nbe something in classical myth that fits here.\n\nI also believe fwiw that the elm itself was trapping him (though it may\nnot have been a _physical_ elm a-tall, a-tall) in his coffin/sleep/death\nuntil the book's \"beginning.\" Thus its fall begins the process that ends\nwith the voice of the psychopomp; the next thing to happen is Weer's\n(self-)judgment and his journey to his eternal fate.\n\nI do not speculate on what that fate may be.\n\nThat being the case, I was perhaps a *little* disingenuous in using\nyour post as a launching place for my own comment on the\npotential for over-zealous analysis of the Lupine textus; it was\nactually quite a bad example for my point, given that I think the\nelm is, in fact, hugely significant." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-06T18:49:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What the elm?", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370706061131k6f515373u3a0b6b7b5f81636e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 6, 2007, at 1:31 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nThat being the case, I was perhaps a *little* disingenuous in using\nyour post as a launching place for my own comment on the\npotential for over-zealous analysis of the Lupine textus; it was\nactually quite a bad example for my point, given that I think the\nelm is, in fact, hugely significant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your comment was well-launched and worthy of attention. I would even \npervert it into a principle:\n\nBecause Wolfe delights in the appropriation of people, places, and \nthings, we should not consider an allusion or borrowing to be \nimportant to the interpretation of a work -- unless the connection \nsheds light on a **problem we have already identified**.\n\nThe discovery of an allusion, in other words, should not spawn new \nproblems in interpretation. Unless it obviously does, which I am \nsure will be the case somewhere in the Lupine corpus." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370706061200q118e1f70vee0d21fbe58f1b8b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-06T19:00:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What the elm?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/6/07, Matthew King wrote:\nThe discovery of an allusion, in other words, should not spawn new\nproblems in interpretation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like that phrasing best." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." } ] }, { "message_id": "<200706061749.34348.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-06-06T21:49:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What the elm?", "in_reply_to": "<4BB1A159-5DE4-4650-BE1E-53234D90ABF6@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday 06 June 2007 14:19, Matthew King wrote:\nOn Jun 6, 2007, at 12:21 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is *not* a put-down to the work Matthew King has done\non the elm. I believe it very likely that Wolfe had at least some\nof this in mind when he chose an elm tree for Weer's grave\ndecoration. The question in my mind, though, is this: how\nmuch does knowing this affect my reading of the book? Does\nknowing the significance of the elm help me to peace, uh,\npiece together the crabbed and mysterious timeline of\nWeer's life; to understand why he is (seemingly) trapped in\nthis particular afterworld; or any of the mysteries associated\nwith the individual accounts?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Knowing (or guessing) the connection to the Aeneid doesn't help in\nthe interpretation of Peace unless Wolfe borrowed much more than just\nan elm. Peace is packed so full of fragmentary and subverted stories\nthat another classical allusion is hardly illuminating.\n\nIf we were to unearth Vergilian (or Dantean) monsters in the\nmenagerie of Weer's musings, or if we find some other Aenean\nanalogue, then perhaps the connection would be more than merely\ninteresting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The elm standing by the gates of Hell (or the underworld) ties in quite well \nwith Borski's \"Weer as the Devil\" musings. If you haven't already read it, \nthe essay is definitely worth the time, regardless of whether or not you find \nit convincing:\n\n\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/PaxBorskii.html" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4667AAB8.8080100@charter.net>", "from": { "name": "JWillard", "address": "aldenweer at charter.net" }, "date": "2007-06-07T06:50:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What the elm?", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370706061200q118e1f70vee0d21fbe58f1b8b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn 6/6/07, Matthew King wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The discovery of an allusion, in other words, should not spawn new\nproblems in interpretation.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I like that phrasing best.\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the mistake is to assume an allusion is just some sort of homage \nor a wink and a nod: I don't know if it's that simple. I'm starting to \nthink more and more that Virgil and Dante are extremely important to \nWolfe (Averns, anyone?). Given their contributions to the Roman \nCatholic faith, this would not be surprising. I'm curious if there are \nany connections to Augustine, as well. (And someone might have pointed \nall of this out, but I have less and less time to read and confer with \nprevious posts.) Recently started reading Inferno, and Dante's choices \nof focus are striking to a Wolfean: Charon is there, of course, and \nNessus carries Dante across one of the rivers. I think it's quite \npossible that the Book of the New Sun is Wolfe playing with the Divine \nComedy.\n\nAnother influence, that I've never really seen anyone address, is \nNabokov. Wolfe admits the influence, and Nabokov is a tricky, tricky \nman, and I believe Wolfe learned much from him. Here is a passage from \nthe introduction to the Annotated Lolita (Which Wolfe might well have \nread) called, fittingly, Nabokov's Puppet Show, and which, when I read \nit, blared \"Wolfe!\" to me. (In your mind, substitute Wolfe for Nabokov, \nand see what you think.)\n\n\"Nabokov's remarks on Gogol help to underscore this analogical \ndefinition of involution: \"All reality is a mask,\" he writes (p.148), \nand Nabokov's narratives are masques, stagings of his own inventions \nrather than recreations of the naturalistic world. But, since the \nlatter is what most readers expect and demand of fiction, many still do \nnot understand what Nabokov is doing. They are not accustomed to \"the \nallusions to something else behind the crudely painted screens\"(p.142), \nwhere the \"real plots behind the obvious ones are taking place.\" There \nare thus at least two \"plots\" in all of Nabokov's fiction: the \ncharacters in the book, and the consciousness of the creator above it - \nthe \"real plot\" which is visible in the \"gaps\" and \"holes\" in the \nnarrative....Although other writers have created involuted works, \nNabokov's self-consciousness is supreme; and the range and scale of his \neffects, his mastery and control, make him unique.\"\n\nThere's much more.\n\nI know that in my own experience, the second reading of any Wolfe work \nis almost radically different from the first. As if I were reading a \n*different* book. Nabokov is the only other author I've had this \nreaction to.\n\nIn The White Goddess, Graves mentions the connection between the elm and \nthe vine of Dionysus - which, as Borski's pointed out, is what Dennis is \nshort for." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4667EE52.1050806@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jesper Svedberg", "address": "jsvedberg at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-07T11:38:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What the elm?", "in_reply_to": "<4667AAB8.8080100@charter.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "JWillard skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another influence, that I've never really seen anyone address, is \nNabokov. Wolfe admits the influence, and Nabokov is a tricky, tricky \nman, and I believe Wolfe learned much from him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While Wolfe has said that he has read Nabokov, I seem to remember that \nhe also said that he first read him very late in his life (that is, \nafter he found his own voice). I can't really seem to find a cite for \nthis though, except this post: \nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0025/0091.shtml so perhaps someone \nknows more about it than I do.\n\n\n // Jesper" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370706071148u4dc482cm46af6750ed3acabd@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-07T18:48:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What the elm?", "in_reply_to": "<4667AAB8.8080100@charter.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/6/07, JWillard wrote:\nI think the mistake is to assume an allusion is just some sort of homage\nor a wink and a nod: I don't know if it's that simple." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly not *all* are! I'm not inveighing against noting or interpreting\nallusions, only against the assumption that all allusions are equally\nsignificant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it's quite possible that the Book of the New Sun is Wolfe\nplaying with the Divine Comedy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow. That's interesting, particularly if you revert to the original\nstructure of a trilogy. Thecla as Beatrice? Jonas (or Talos) as\nVergil? H'mmm." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In The White Goddess, Graves mentions the connection between the elm and\nthe vine of Dionysus - which, as Borski's pointed out, is what Dennis is\nshort for." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. But then, he's mostly called \"Den\" (short for both \"Alden\" and \"Dennis\"),\nand that's where a wolf dwells..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." } ] }, { "message_id": "<86786.88297.qm@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-07T20:49:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What the elm?", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370706071148u4dc482cm46af6750ed3acabd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nYes. But then, he's mostly called \"Den\" (short for\nboth \"Alden\" and \"Dennis\"),\nand that's where a wolf dwells..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I haven't read Peace, but I was zipping through this\nletter and misread the bit above as \"and that's where\nWolfe dwells. . .\" That is, the mutable space between\nmeanings. It's obviously not what you said nor what\nyou meant but it seemed like a fortunate error, so I\nthought I'd share it.\n\nDon\n\nThe Evangelists: a Lesser Apocrypha http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=178109961" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370706071450n19413b5h11d896ec3a893642@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-07T21:50:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What the elm?", "in_reply_to": "<86786.88297.qm@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/7/07, don doggett wrote:\nYes. But then, he's mostly called \"Den\" (short for\nboth \"Alden\" and \"Dennis\"),\nand that's where a wolf dwells..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I haven't read Peace, but I was zipping through this\nletter and misread the bit above as \"and that's where\nWolfe dwells. . .\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh. I almost wrote \"a Wolfe,\" and decided it would be\nkinda twee of me. (It isn't twee as a misreading, just\ndoing it on purpose.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is, the mutable space between\nmeanings. It's obviously not what you said nor what\nyou meant but it seemed like a fortunate error, so I\nthought I'd share it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And I'll second it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." } ] } ] }