{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/484",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 484,
    "subject": "Fifth Head debate, & Severi",
    "messages": 1,
    "voices": 1,
    "first": "1998-04-09T15:23:32+00:00",
    "last": "1998-04-09T15:23:32+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0009-0726@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Tony Ellis",
        "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk"
      },
      "date": "1998-04-09T15:23:32+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Fifth Head debate, & Severi",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "                                                                      \n09/04/98\n                                                                      09:13\n Fifth Head debate, & Severian's Mercy"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Robert Borski wrote:\nAny thoughts, Tony, as long as we're mentioning associative works, on why\nGW called Phaedria Phaedria, if not for the extraliterary reference to\nincest?"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Well, my best shot would be the Phaedria in Spencer's The\nFaerie Queene, who personifies Wantonness. Not very fair on the\npoor girl, I know, but she is a bit of a flirt. Apparently there's also\na Phaedria in the Roman playwright Titus Maccius Plautus's\nPot of Gold, but I don't pretend to have read that.\n\nSadly, Robert, I think we've taken the current Fifth Head debate about\nas far as we can, as any further arguments I made now would just be\nreiterations of arguments I've already made. It's been fun.\n\n\nTerry Nickolette asked:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "When does [Severian] find his humanity?"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I'm glad I'm not the only one who's been pondering this. I think\nMantis is right that the moment in Baldanders' castle is a \n\"benchmark\", when Severian notes his own unease at the sight\nof the eviscerated woman, and observes that once this would\nnot have disturbed him at all. \n\nI don't think that his sparing of Cyracia is any sign of a growing\nsense of mercy, however. He is quite prepared to strangle her\nright up to the last moment, and only saves her to expiate the\nguilt he feels for not saving Thecla. In his own beautiful words\n\"we strive to repay the debts of the past with the debased\ncurrency of the present.\"\n\nIt may be a mistake to look for a specific Road-to-Damascus\nmoment when Severian changes, but here's a thought to play with:\nin Archetypal literary criticism one of the archetypes of character \ndevelopment and change is the Descent into the Underworld. The\nUnderworld is the metaphorical dark underside of everyday reality,\nthe place where the rules change, characterised by inversion. The\nprotagonist enters it when he or she is at their lowest spiritual ebb,\npasses through a personal nadir, but then gains some sort of\nenlightenment and leaves the underworld on an upper path, a changed\nperson. Marlowe's river journey in Heart of Darkness is often cited \nas an example, but I've always thought Bilbo's encounter with Gollum\nin The Hobbit was a good one too: he's literally in the underworld, and\nhe's at his lowest ebb, having lost his friends and all hope of getting out.\nWe have inversion in the form of the slimey, murderous Gollum, who is\nBilbo's antithesis in every way. Before this encounter Bilbo was a \nuseless, cowardly deadweight, after it, thanks to the talismanic Ring\nhe carries out of the underworld, he is a hero and a better person.\n\nMy point: there is an episode between Cyracia and Baldanders'\ncastle that fits all the characteristics of the Descent into the \nUnderworld. It is the encounter with Typhon. Having just seen Little\nSeverian fry, (which may be symbolic in itself: the death of his\nspiritually immature self?) Big Severian is at a personal all-time low. \nHe is close to killing himself. Cue Typhon, who whisks Sev away into\nthe dark interior of the mountain - the Underworld. We have inversion,\ntoo: when Typhon dangles Sev over the abyss he holds him by the \nankles, literally turning his world upside down.\n\nBehind this episode lies another story, of course: Christ's\ntempation by the Devil. That too is a Descent into the\nUnderworld: Christ goes into the wilderness a carpenter's son,\nfasts, meets his own inverse in the Devil, and emerges ready to\nbegin his ministery.\n\nJust an idea to play with over Easter! Given his mistrust of academics,\nWolfe would probably dismiss it out of hand... <g>"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}