{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4846", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4846, "subject": "Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "messages": 55, "voices": 23, "first": "2007-06-09T15:31:48+00:00", "last": "2007-06-22T15:42:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<39ed084f0706090831w1c6950ffy5e635b7691dcdf68@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-09T15:31:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy wrote:\nI don't buy the Cutthroat-as-dog theory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, Cutthroat isn't simply a dog; but Cutthroat is to a dog as the Wiggikki\nare to wolves. You can even speculate on his breed...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Those material objects must have come from the people on the Great Sleigh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, Cutthroat has knowledge and devices from the Great Sleigh. He is a\n*Sleigh dog*. (Which may be the source of his \"birthmark.\") Whatever may be\nits biblical significance, \"Tracking Song\" is above all an homage to Jack\nLondon's _The Call of the Wild_. Does that illuminate Cutthroat's crime?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think that the winged man was simply another variety of beastman. I\nthink it was an angel of some sort, whether come to bar him from the Sleigh\nor to carry him off to wherever." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, a *cherub*. Not one of the winged, apple-cheeked babies of the\nRennaissance, but one of the mighty winged beast-men of Canaanite myth.\n\nMatt G." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c7ab29$e2d70660$c4c95a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-06-10T06:37:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0706090831w1c6950ffy5e635b7691dcdf68@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:\nYes, Cutthroat has knowledge and devices from the Great Sleigh. He is a\n*Sleigh dog*. (Which may be the source of his \"birthmark.\") Whatever may\nbe\nits biblical significance, \"Tracking Song\" is above all an homage to Jack\nLondon's _The Call of the Wild_. Does that illuminate Cutthroat's crime?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Disclaimer: I have not read _The Call of the Wild_, and I'm not going to\njust to analyze this story.\n\nBut I've read a synopsis, and that was more than enough to convince me that\nwhomever first made the connection between it and TS is absolutely right.\nI'm a bit surprised that so much ink was expended on this story here in the\npast without an early consensus being reached on at least that much. I even\nlearned the significance of the number fourteen -- it was the original\nnumber of dogs in a sled team of which only five survived.\n\nOf course, knowing that TS was inspired by _The Call of the Wild_ doesn't\nexplain Wolfe's spin on it -- and it's been spun all to hell. And there\nain't no one gonna convince me that Cutthroat was ever pulling the Great\nSleigh. My ignorance of the original inspiration prevents me from\ncarrying this exposition any further, but I look forward to someone who has\nread it to expound on TS mightily.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0706101202s6511124ft820eb5cf4686137d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-10T19:02:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c7ab29$e2d70660$c4c95a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "R.C.L. wrote:\nI have not read _The Call of the Wild_" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's online (if you can bear to read it on the screen), it's a quick read\n(straight, no puzzles), and it's very illuminating. It's easy to see why\nWolfe responded to it, with its image of dogs as \"ill-tamed wolves.\"\n\n_White Fang_ is also online, as is _The Sea-Wolf_. Apparently London (whose\nnickname was \"Wolf\") was nearly as obsessed with wolves as Wolfe.\n\nhttp://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=The_Call_of_the_Wild_%28London%29&oldid=386076\n\nI am tempted to expound upon the correspondences between \"Tracking Song\" and\n_The Call of the Wild_ (beginning with their titles), but I don't want to be\na bore. I will say that the first chapter is suggestive as to the\nsignificance of Cutthroat's \"birthmark,\" the last chapter as to his\nmurderous nickname, and in the penultimate chapter, I think we find which\nsled is the Great Sleigh, and what it represents.\n\nMatt G." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001501c7abe2$c3760a00$32ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-06-11T04:41:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0706101202s6511124ft820eb5cf4686137d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:\nI am tempted to expound upon the correspondences between \"Tracking Song\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_The Call of the Wild_ (beginning with their titles), but I don't want to\nbe\na bore." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I won't be bored, and anyone who would be shouldn't be reading this stuff\nanyway.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nigel Price", "address": "nigelprice at onetel.net" }, "date": "2007-06-12T14:52:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (Urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<001501c7abe2$c3760a00$32ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:\nI am tempted to expound upon the correspondences\nbetween \"Tracking Song\" and _The Call of the Wild_\n(beginning with their titles), but I don't want to be\na bore. I will say that the first chapter is\nsuggestive as to the significance of Cutthroat's\n\"birthmark,\" the last chapter as to his murderous\nnickname, and in the penultimate chapter, I think we\nfind which sled is the Great Sleigh, and what it\nrepresents." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm feeling very stupid at the moment. I've read \"The Call of the Wild\", and\neven read it within the last couple of years, but at the moment its\nconnection to \"Tracking Song\" entirely eludes me, even though \"Tracking\nSong\" is one of my favourite Lupine tales. Far from being bored, I should be\ndeeply fascinated, Matthew, if you would expound upon the correspondences.\n\nPlease, I should really like to hear about this!\n\nNigel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0706121721x3c80fad5x85f05aea7dc5515d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-13T00:21:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nigel writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm feeling very stupid at the moment. I've read \"The Call of the Wild\",\nand even read it within the last couple of years, but at the moment its\nconnection to \"Tracking Song\" entirely eludes me, even though \"Tracking\nSong\" is one of my favourite Lupine tales. Far from being bored, I should be\ndeeply fascinated, Matthew, if you would expound upon the correspondences." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well I'm having trouble being coherent, so please bear with me through some\ntangled reasoning. But the big clues are:\n- the frozen wasteland setting (referencing CotW's Alaska and northern\nCanada). (We even have a possible analog for CotW's aurora borealis in TS's\nmirror dust that reflects the sun and warms the planet.)\n- the Great Sleigh (referencing the dog sleds in CotW)\n- the animal tribes, corresponding mostly to North American species,\nespecially the Wiggikki (wolves), the Lenizee (deer) and Nashhwonk (moose).\n(Though the Pamigaka (boars) and Ketin (lion) are problematic in this\nrespect.)\n\nSo _The Call of the Wild_ is a story of a civilized dog rediscovering the\ndormant \"primordial beast\" -- the wolf within. Buck learns \"The Law of Club\nand Fang,\" which says that Man is the master and cannot be overcome, but\nthat the other dogs can be mastered through brutality. Finally, Buck learns\nto kill Man -- learns that it is all too easy. \"Tracking Song\" is a little\nlike the reverse of this, or rather it is a sort of postlude to CotW.\nCutthroat struggles away from brutality towards something like grace. At the\nend of CotW, Buck is among wolves; Cutthroat begins among the wolves (the\nWiggikki), and returns to the Great Sleigh, which also turns out to be a\nchurch/spaceship/eden. TS is a \"Pilgrim's Progress.\" The \"tracking song\" is\nthe song of the Wiggikki hunters, \"a rising and falling wail,\" which is a\nwolf's song, which is the \"call of the wild.\"\n\nThe beginning of CotW suggests the meaning of Cutthroat's \"birthmark.\" Na ve\nCalifornia dog Buck is abducted by the laborer Manuel (\"man-well,\" source of\nMantru (\"man-true\")?) to be sold and shipped north to pull sleds for greedy\nprospectors in Alaska and Canada. Manuel slips a rope around Buck's neck\nthat is used to choke him. So I think Cutthroat's mark means he has been\ntaken against his will. Wolfe's familiar theme of Freedom is in play.\n\nThe nickname \"Cutthroat\" suggests that he is a murderer, and that his exile\nfrom the Great Sleigh is punishment. (Hence Borski's interpretation of\nCutthroat as Cain.) At the end of CotW, in a rage over the death of John\nThornton, Buck kills the Yeehats by tearing open their jugular veins, i.e.\nhe becomes a cutthroat. So I think Cutthroat's crime is that he is a\nmurderer, but that has killed out of revenge.\n\nUnlike Buck in CotW, who becomes increasingly ruthless and brutal, Cutthroat\nbecomes increasingly reluctant to kill and squeamish about eating the flesh\nof the animal tribes. He doesn't want to eat the Lenizee doe; he gives away\nhis share of the meat from the moose-man Nashhwonk (cf. Buck's ruthless\npursuit of the wounded moose); and he refuses to kill the lion-man Ketin.\nRepeatedly coming into possession of increasingly powerful weapons (the\nclubbow, the endieva wand, and the horned staff), leaves them behind one by\none.\n\nIf the \"Great Sleigh\" is present as a single sled in CotW, then I think it\nis the one-ton sled, locked in ice, that Buck pulls for John Thornton's bet\n(\"As you love me, Buck.\"). Taking this interpretation, the Great Sleigh\nreflects Wolf's theme of the redeeming power of Love. Like the CotW's\ninterlude with John Thornton, there is an analogous deviation in Cutthroat's\npursuit of the Great Sleigh when he goes after Cim Glowing, whom he is\ngrowing to love.\n\nThat's the best I can do for now; surely others can be clearer, cleverer,\nmore thorough and more eloquent than I have been here. I just got _The\nCastle of the Otter_ and I want to go read it.\n\nMatt G." } ] }, { "message_id": "<547B28C7-B747-45B7-8987-1C908393203D@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-13T14:00:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0706121721x3c80fad5x85f05aea7dc5515d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 12, 2007, at 7:21 PM, Matthew Groves wrote:\nUnlike Buck in CotW, who becomes increasingly ruthless and brutal, \nCutthroat becomes increasingly reluctant to kill and squeamish \nabout eating the flesh of the animal tribes. He doesn't want to eat \nthe Lenizee doe; he gives away his share of the meat from the moose- \nman Nashhwonk (cf. Buck's ruthless pursuit of the wounded moose); \nand he refuses to kill the lion-man Ketin. Repeatedly coming into \npossession of increasingly powerful weapons (the clubbow, the \nendieva wand, and the horned staff), leaves them behind one by one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This resembles the arc of _White Fang_ more than _Call of the Wild_.\n\nI haven't read either since I was twelve, so my recollection of the \ndetails is fuzzy. But I do recall specifically noting that CotW \ndepicts a dog's descent from, and WF a wolf's ascent to, civilization." } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0706131606l199d329asd229fab762614048@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-13T23:06:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<547B28C7-B747-45B7-8987-1C908393203D@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Matthew King noted:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This resembles the arc of _White Fang_ more than _Call of the Wild_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, _White Fang_ is there too, I imagine, although I haven't read it, so\nsomeone else will have to draw those connections. Someone on the old urth\nlist speculated that the Wiggikki's hunt of Nashhwonk was based on a passage\nin WF depicting a moose hunt." } ] }, { "message_id": "<200706131918.10650.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-06-13T23:18:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0706131606l199d329asd229fab762614048@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday 13 June 2007 19:06, Matthew Groves wrote:\nMatthew King noted:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This resembles the arc of _White Fang_ more than _Call of the Wild_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, _White Fang_ is there too, I imagine, although I haven't read it, so\nsomeone else will have to draw those connections. Someone on the old urth\nlist speculated that the Wiggikki's hunt of Nashhwonk was based on a\npassage in WF depicting a moose hunt." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've never read either CotW or WF. London has long been on my list of authors \nto Get Around To Someday. This thread inspired me order a collected works \nwhich includes both stories. I plan to read both of them, then re-read \n_Tracking Song_. I'll post any observations I have when I'm done." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c7aeaf$a0de9500$5acb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-06-14T18:12:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<200706131918.10650.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some scattered, even contradictory thoughts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel D Jones wrote:\nI've never read either CotW or WF. London has long been on my list of\nauthors\nto Get Around To Someday. This thread inspired me order a collected works\nwhich includes both stories. I plan to read both of them, then re-read\n_Tracking Song_. I'll post any observations I have when I'm done." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good. I relented and read CotW, not a book I could honestly recommend to\nanyone much past puberty. But there can be no doubt it influenced TS. Still,\nas I said before, it doesn't come close to explaining Wolfe's story. If I\nmay make a suggestion, I think it might be a good idea to shrug off the\nwhole crime-and-punishment, Cain-and-Abel idea when you read TS again. It\nhas colored my view of the story for so long that it's hard to shake, and\nI'm not sure that it's really valid. After all, such moral/ethical\nconsiderations have nothing to do with a dog like London's Buck.\n\nThat leads back to the unspecified prelude to TS; how Cutthroat came to be\nseparated from the Great Sleigh and the presumed link to his amnesia. There\nis another point of correspondence Matthew G. didn't mention, Buck's\n\"dreams\". He had impossible dreams (impossible unless you grant some sort of\ncollective, ancestral, Jungian archetype) of lying near a fire where some\ncaveman-type fretted in the night. This happened to Buck late in the story,\nwhen he was very near to being completely feral. As Buck regressed from\ndomesticated dog to wild animal, his instincts came to the fore and he all\nbut forgot his tranquil California past.\n\nSomething similar happened with Cutthroat's memory: \"I have no memory. But\nthere is something behind the no-memory. I know words for many things I\ncannot remember ever having seen. I think of a certain thing, and begin to\nlook for it, and then I realize that I have never possessed such a thing --\nthat the shelves and cabinets and drawers I find in my mind do not exist. I\nthink of other people around me; but they are not there.\" He spoke this to\nthe Min. Cutthroat forgot his past with the Sleigh people and his canine\ninstincts took over to insure his survival, but his \"ancestral\" *human*\nmemories were still there, just below the surface. They arrested his slide\ntoward the animal part of himself; he started acting more like a man and\nless like a wild dog.\n\nHis pursuit of kidnapped Cim violated the first law of survival as expressed\nin both CotW and TS. Roughly stated, it says that to survive *at all costs*\nis the individual's first duty. Niceties such as of who or what to eat are a\ndistant second, along with tribal dos and don'ts.\n\nThere's another point of correspondence between CotW and TS. Buck and the\nother dogs dug holes in the snow to keep warm at night. Cutthroat tried that\none night and almost froze to death.\n\nThis leads to another question: Since Cutthroat is clearly not native to the\nplanet and came to be there by way of the beings on the Sleigh, is he the\nsame type of being as they or is he not? If he is not -- if he is a dogman,\nthen the same sort of genetic tinkering has been going on elsewhere that\nproduced the local beastmen. (I had the distinct impression in the Urth\nCycle that the Increate frowned on Man 'improving' on Creation.) Be that as\nit may, if Cutthroat is a type of being subservient to Man and on a lower\nmoral plane, and if the beings operating the Great Sleigh are indeed men (as\nGod made them in _Genesis_), then where do they get off punishing a dog for\nacting like a dog and not like a man, particularly if they have been\n*treating* him like a dog? That is, *if* he was being punished.\n\nThis reading does not explain why the Min and machines recognized Cutthroat\nas a true man. And it makes the ending farcical. If Cutthroat is a dogman\nand the winged man is any sort of angelic being, then why is the angel\nthere? To keep Cutthroat from returning to the Sleigh? That's swatting a fly\nwith a sledgehammer and completely unnecessary; he was clearly dying and the\nSleigh people had already kicked him out. To carry him to Hell? That seems\nexcessive. To carry him off to Heaven because he learned his lesson and\nbecame such a good dogman?\n\nEach of the tribes of \"people\" Cutthroat encountered started out as some\nspecies of animal, but each type apparently looked far closer to human than\nanimal, so much so that Cim was mistaken as true human until she was seen\nwithout her \"tunic\". We don't know exactly which physical animal traits each\nspecies retained, but in the warmth of the cave Cutthroat bared himself to\nthe waist, which act did not betray him as being other than true man and\nwhich act he regarded as \"extremely important\". So his animal parts must\nhave been below the waist. For whatever that's worth.\n\nI said before that I didn't think the winged man was just another type of\nbeastman, but maybe I was wrong. He might be a large eater of carrion, and\nthe joke is on Cutthroat.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200706141757.06932.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-06-14T21:57:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c7aeaf$a0de9500$5acb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thursday 14 June 2007 14:12, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nI said before that I didn't think the winged man was just another type of\nbeastman, but maybe I was wrong. He might be a large eater of carrion, and\nthe joke is on Cutthroat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ouch! A condorman, perhaps? That's a twist I'd never considered." } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0706141512x204452b3s4a0f10a6c9ad62f5@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-14T22:12:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<200706141757.06932.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy,\nI'm glad you've taken up this thread as I didn't feel I was doing it\njustice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If I may make a suggestion, I think it might be a good idea to shrug off\nthe whole crime-and-punishment, Cain-and-Abel idea when you read TS again." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It has colored my view of the story for so long that it's hard to shake, and\nI'm not sure that it's really valid. After all, such moral/ethical\nconsiderations have nothing to do with a dog like London's Buck.\n\nI think you may be right about reading in the specifics of the Cain/Abel\nstory; however, I'm not sure I agree with the last sentence. Imagine you're\nGene Wolfe reading the last two chapters of CotW. What strikes you as\nsignificant there?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is another point of correspondence Matthew G. didn't mention, Buck's\n\"dreams\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I forgot about those dreams. (They were rather implausible dreams, you\nhave to admit.) And I did mean to mention Buck's forgetfulness." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's another point of correspondence between CotW and TS. Buck and the\nother dogs dug holes in the snow to keep warm at night. Cutthroat tried that\none night and almost froze to death." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for pointing this out. I didn't even make the connection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since Cutthroat is clearly not native to the planet and came to be there\nby way of the beings on the Sleigh, is he the same type of being as they or\nis he not?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think he is not. I think Cutthroat is a man like us. Remember Master\nMalrubius's analogy somewhere in TbotNS (I think before they leave Nessus)\nabout Man's relationship to the Increate being of the same nature as\nTriskele's relationship to Severian? I think this is how we are to\nunderstand TS. In terms of CotW, Cutthroat's relationship to the Great\nSleigh is analogous to Buck's relationship to John Thornton. I think there\nmay be other Sleigh dogs like Cutthroat, but I think there are also Mushers,\nor at least a Musher. The Sleigh dogs are men; the Mushers are, in some\nsense, divine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If he is not -- if he is a dogman, then the same sort of genetic tinkering\nhas been going on elsewhere that produced the local beastmen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does there have to have been tinkering?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "then where do they get off punishing a dog for acting like a dog and not\nlike a man, particularly if they have been *treating* him like a dog? That\nis, *if* he was being punished." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps not. He may simply be a lost dog like Buck. He may also be being\ntested and perfected like Abraham. Cutthroat's story seems too similar to\nLatro's for us to leave out some discussion of Soldier....\n\n...which I will happily leave to someone else.\n\nMatt G." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4671C13E.9070009@hyraxes.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2007-06-14T22:29:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c7aeaf$a0de9500$5acb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Buck's dreams in CotW are easily explained. Jack London was a believer \nin racial memory (and a lot of other tosh as well). He wrote a whole \nnovel in which the protagonist (an imprisoned radical) escapes into \ndreams/visions/astral projections of the past, including a session in \nprehistoric times, which corresponds nicely to Buck's dream. It was \ncalled \"Star Rover.\"\n\nDave Lebling, aka vizcacha" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nThere\nis another point of correspondence Matthew G. didn't mention, Buck's\n\"dreams\". He had impossible dreams (impossible unless you grant some sort of\ncollective, ancestral, Jungian archetype) of lying near a fire where some\ncaveman-type fretted in the night" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10640.67.142.130.33.1181860595.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-06-14T22:36:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<4671C13E.9070009@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Buck's dreams in CotW are easily explained. Jack London was a believer\nin racial memory (and a lot of other tosh as well)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And he didn't like the Jews.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<52376.207.172.28.2.1181860738.squirrel@www.doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2007-06-14T22:38:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<4671C13E.9070009@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Buck's dreams in CotW are easily explained. Jack London was a believer\nin racial memory (and a lot of other tosh as well). He wrote a whole\nnovel in which the protagonist (an imprisoned radical) escapes into\ndreams/visions/astral projections of the past, including a session in\nprehistoric times, which corresponds nicely to Buck's dream. It was\ncalled \"Star Rover.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_Before Adam_ uses the same trope, IIRC." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<667793.88044.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2007-06-14T23:05:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Question", "in_reply_to": "<52376.207.172.28.2.1181860738.squirrel@www.doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey Evryone,I have a question for you all...\n I have a couple of good friends I want to turn on to GW, what is a good strting point? Don't want to scare them off to soon...\n I'm thinking \"Strang Travelers\" or \"The ISland...\" ,or should I just give them Shadow and Claw and be done with it???\n \n Stuart" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tim Walters wrote:\nBuck's dreams in CotW are easily explained. Jack London was a believer\nin racial memory (and a lot of other tosh as well). He wrote a whole\nnovel in which the protagonist (an imprisoned radical) escapes into\ndreams/visions/astral projections of the past, including a session in\nprehistoric times, which corresponds nicely to Buck's dream. It was\ncalled \"Star Rover.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_Before Adam_ uses the same trope, IIRC." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200706141959.17380.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-06-14T23:59:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Question", "in_reply_to": "<667793.88044.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thursday 14 June 2007 19:05, Stuart Hamm wrote:\nHey Evryone,I have a question for you all...\n I have a couple of good friends I want to turn on to GW, what is a good\nstrting point? Don't want to scare them off to soon... I'm thinking \"Strang\nTravelers\" or \"The ISland...\" ,or should I just give them Shadow and Claw\nand be done with it???" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't speak for anyone else, but TBotNS is what hooked me on Wolfe. Had I \nread anything else, I'd probably have enjoyed it but it certainly wouldn't \nhave inspired me to go grab everything by him I could get my hands on. I'd \nalmost certainly never have read _Peace_ or _Pandora_. (Definitely my loss!) \n\nThen again, I'm a fairly twisted soul. The tale of a banished torturer in a \nstagnant, decadent, dying future society with a sort of steampunk feel really \nappeals to me. Perhaps I'm not the best example to use. :-)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10706141920j355073b3y36eae4e0d884291a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-15T02:20:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Question", "in_reply_to": "<667793.88044.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stuart,\n\nI started off with Shadow & Claw myself; I was hooked by the end of the\nfirst chapter. I haven't read Strange Travelers, but I'm not sure if The\nIsland of Doctor Death is the best place to start; lots of the science stuff\nhasn't aged as well as one might hope, and some of the stories, like \"The\nEyeflash Miracles,\" are so obscure and difficult to read that I wonder if\nthey might turn off readers. That said, it seems to me that \"Seven American\nNights\" from that collection might make a very good intro to Wolfe; it seems\nto me a very representative Wolfe story, what with the decaying world and\nthe monumentally unreliable narrator.\n\nI suppose that The Wizard Knight is another possible starting point; my one\ncaveat is that lots of readers either a) hate Able or b) think that The\nWizard drags a lot, so that might not be the best place to begin.\n\nBest of luck convincing your friends.\n\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/14/07, Stuart Hamm wrote:\n\nHey Evryone,I have a question for you all...\nI have a couple of good friends I want to turn on to GW, what is a good\nstrting point? Don't want to scare them off to soon...\nI'm thinking \"Strang Travelers\" or \"The ISland...\" ,or should I just give\nthem Shadow and Claw and be done with it???\n\nStuart\n\n*Tim Walters * wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Buck's dreams in CotW are easily explained. Jack London was a believer\nin racial memory (and a lot of other tosh as well). He wrote a whole\nnovel in which the protagonist (an imprisoned radical) escapes into\ndreams/visions/astral projections of the past, including a session in\nprehistoric times, which corresponds nicely to Buck's dream. It was\ncalled \"Star Rover.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_Before Adam_ uses the same trope, IIRC.\n\n--\nTim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4671FD7D.2090604@hyraxes.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2007-06-15T02:46:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Question", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10706141920j355073b3y36eae4e0d884291a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Personally, I would consider \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\" (meaning all \nthree novelettes, of course) as a good introduction to Wolfe. I have to \nadmit that I've had very little luck getting people interested in him, \nusing that or \"The Book of the New Sun.\" The prospect pretty much has to \nbe interested in SF or Fantasy and be interested in \"literary\" fiction; \nnot many are.\n\nDave Lebling, aka vizcacha" } ] }, { "message_id": "<467208E8.80706@majitek.com>", "from": { "name": "Steve Taylor", "address": "steve.taylor at majitek.com" }, "date": "2007-06-15T03:35:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Question", "in_reply_to": "<4671FD7D.2090604@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Lebling wrote:\nPersonally, I would consider \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\" (meaning all \nthree novelettes, of course) as a good introduction to Wolfe. I have to \nadmit that I've had very little luck getting people interested in him, \nusing that or \"The Book of the New Sun.\" The prospect pretty much has to \nbe interested in SF or Fantasy and be interested in \"literary\" fiction; \nnot many are.\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I started on Book of the New Sun and it suited me very well. I owe it \nall to Michael Moorcock too - I'd been ignoring it because \"Shadow of \nthe Torturer\" sounded pretty trashy. In _Wizardry and Wild Romance_, a \nbook of essays on fantasy, he talked it up big enough that I was willing \nto try it - and loved it of course. I'd recommend this for readers who \nwould be taken by the sweep of invention\n\nI can see The Knight (haven't read The Wizard yet) as a good starting \npoint because of the astonishing simplicity and purity of the language. \nSomehow Wolfe can write \"The sea was blue. The sun came up.\" and make \nthe prose sing. I am mystified as to how he does it.\n\nFifth Head would be suitable for puzzle solvers. It's one of the \ndemanding books which asks the reader to untangle it. I'm not a puzzle \nsolver by nature - I figure that if the author thinks I need to know \nsomething they can just come out tell me. Which makes it pretty odd that \nI'm such a big Wolfe fan - but then, that's my point - there are \ndifferent Wolfe's for different readers. Fifth head would be a poor \nstarting point for me, but possibly a good starting point for others.\n\n(Oddly enough, I'm pretty sure I read Death of Dr Island etc when I was \nabout 9 - but at that age I would finish any book I read, whether I \ndisliked it, whether I completely failed to understand it, whether I was \nholding it upside down... My only memory of reading it is \"Huh?\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Steve" } ] }, { "message_id": "<428935.67538.qm@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-15T04:40:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Question", "in_reply_to": "<4671FD7D.2090604@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- Dave Lebling wrote:\n\nThe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "prospect pretty much has to \nbe interested in SF or Fantasy and be interested in\n\"literary\" fiction; \nnot many are." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, it's Carver or Cthulhu for many. Sorry, I'm\nreading Brian Lumley's Titus Crow series right now and\nI couldn't resist. It's real potboiler stuff\n(seemingly on purpose) but pretty entertaining and I'm\nsuspecting it might be subtler than it appears. Sadly,\nI only have the second and third omnibus, but I\nthought that might be a fun way to tackle a series.\nLike catching a movie in the middle and only finally\nseeing the beginning years down the road.\n\nDon\n\nThe Evangelists: a Lesser Apocrypha http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=178109961\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<274845.91514.qm@web38506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Joe Riley", "address": "whamdoodler at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-15T05:00:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Question", "in_reply_to": "<467208E8.80706@majitek.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am probably in the minority on this, but I think the Soldier series is a fantastic place to start. It's language is as clear-cut as The Knight's is, but it's set in a world most people are at east passing familiar with. Maybe if you include a little cheat sheet that translates the places and gods from Latro-speak into English, they could at least surf through the story and wallow in Wolfe's brilliant realization of ancient Greece. They're bound to realize there's more down below...\n \n \n \n \n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Steve Taylor wrote:\n Dave Lebling wrote:\nPersonally, I would consider \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\" (meaning all \nthree novelettes, of course) as a good introduction to Wolfe. I have to \nadmit that I've had very little luck getting people interested in him, \nusing that or \"The Book of the New Sun.\" The prospect pretty much has to \nbe interested in SF or Fantasy and be interested in \"literary\" fiction; \nnot many are." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I started on Book of the New Sun and it suited me very well. I owe it \nall to Michael Moorcock too - I'd been ignoring it because \"Shadow of \nthe Torturer\" sounded pretty trashy. In _Wizardry and Wild Romance_, a \nbook of essays on fantasy, he talked it up big enough that I was willing \nto try it - and loved it of course. I'd recommend this for readers who \nwould be taken by the sweep of invention\n\nI can see The Knight (haven't read The Wizard yet) as a good starting \npoint because of the astonishing simplicity and purity of the language. \nSomehow Wolfe can write \"The sea was blue. The sun came up.\" and make \nthe prose sing. I am mystified as to how he does it.\n\nFifth Head would be suitable for puzzle solvers. It's one of the \ndemanding books which asks the reader to untangle it. I'm not a puzzle \nsolver by nature - I figure that if the author thinks I need to know \nsomething they can just come out tell me. Which makes it pretty odd that \nI'm such a big Wolfe fan - but then, that's my point - there are \ndifferent Wolfe's for different readers. Fifth head would be a poor \nstarting point for me, but possibly a good starting point for others.\n\n(Oddly enough, I'm pretty sure I read Death of Dr Island etc when I was \nabout 9 - but at that age I would finish any book I read, whether I \ndisliked it, whether I completely failed to understand it, whether I was \nholding it upside down... My only memory of reading it is \"Huh?\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Steve" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4672233D.3030905@charter.net>", "from": { "name": "JWillard", "address": "aldenweer at charter.net" }, "date": "2007-06-15T05:27:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Question", "in_reply_to": "<667793.88044.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stuart Hamm wrote:\nHey Evryone,I have a question for you all...\nI have a couple of good friends I want to turn on to GW, what is a \ngood strting point? Don't want to scare them off to soon...\nI'm thinking \"Strang Travelers\" or \"The ISland...\" ,or should I just \ngive them Shadow and Claw and be done with it???\n \nStuart\n\n*/Tim Walters /* wrote:\n\n > Buck's dreams in CotW are easily explained. Jack London was a\n believer\n > in racial memory (and a lot of other tosh as well). He wrote a whole\n > novel in which the protagonist (an imprisoned radical) escapes into\n > dreams/visions/astral projections of the past, including a\n session in\n > prehistoric times, which corresponds nicely to Buck's dream. It was\n > called \"Star Rover.\"\n\n _Before Adam_ uses the same trope, IIRC.\n\n -- \n Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<46722A67.70009@doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2007-06-15T05:57:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Question", "in_reply_to": "<4672233D.3030905@charter.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A lot depends on who's getting the recommendation. Much of the pleasure \nof BotNS and later fiction lies in the way Wolfe treats and/or subverts \nstandard sf and fantasy tropes, and someone who hasn't read much in the \ngenres may not get that.\n\nI don't quite remember my first encounter with Wolfe--it was back in the \nSeventies, I think, since I remember being very excited when _Shadow_ \ncame out--but it was almost certainly a short story in an Orbit or \nNebula collection, possibly \"The Death of Doctor Island.\" To this day I \nprefer his stories above all, and I think _Island..._ might be the best \nintroduction, unless the receiver is one of those surprisingly numerous \npeople who just doesn't like short fiction at all.\n\nBut to the Joyce/Eliot fan I gave _Fifth Head_. Not that he ever read it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-06-15T07:36:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0706141512x204452b3s4a0f10a6c9ad62f5@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does anyone ever suspect that GW might not know what he is writing or (to be \nmore precise) exactly how each bit of each story fits in to the overall \npattern he is trying to weave? \n\nThat writing might sometimes be a purely instinctive thing, grasping at \nvague mad visions? \n\nThat GW might sometimes be as surprised by what happens and as ignorant of \nthe \"real\" meaning of it as you or I? \n\n - hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200706150719.11877.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-06-15T11:19:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Friday 15 June 2007 03:36, Andy Robertson wrote:\nDoes anyone ever suspect that GW might not know what he is writing or (to\nbe more precise) exactly how each bit of each story fits in to the overall\npattern he is trying to weave?\n\nThat writing might sometimes be a purely instinctive thing, grasping at\nvague mad visions?\n\nThat GW might sometimes be as surprised by what happens and as ignorant of\nthe \"real\" meaning of it as you or I?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think there's probably a bit of truth to that in that we (his readers) \nsometimes over-interpret his works. I don't think it's humanly possible to \nput the thought and emphasis on every word when writing that we tend to give \nwhen reading. So I think we sometimes \"find\" implications and \ninterpretations and links and allusions that Wolfe never intended.\n\nBut I don't think that by any means accounts for all or even most of the \ncomplex pattern Wolfe weaves. Although we sometimes see shapes in the \nshadows, Wolfe isn't merely a verbal Rorschach test. He's more akin to an \noptical illusion. Both the vase and the kissing couple are there - because \nWolfe put them there. So's the werewolfe howling in the background. But \nthat smell of oranges? That's probably just your imagination.\n\nProbably." } ] }, { "message_id": "<14774.67.142.130.16.1181908713.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-06-15T11:58:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<200706150719.11877.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think there's probably a bit of truth to that in that we (his readers)\nsometimes over-interpret [GW's] works." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you think?\n\nHe does.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<911852.7250.qm@web81411.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2007-06-15T13:35:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<14774.67.142.130.16.1181908713.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So wait...does this mean I'm not a complete Moron if I can't figure out everything that is (and is not) happening in the stories????" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote: \nI think there's probably a bit of truth to that in that we (his readers)\nsometimes over-interpret [GW's] works." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you think?\n\nHe does.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joel Sieh", "address": "joel.sieh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-15T13:36:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Question", "in_reply_to": "<46722A67.70009@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I got started with BotNS, and that's what hooked me. However, some of the\npeople I've recommended it to couldn't get past Shadow & Claw.\n\nI don't think I'd recommend a collection of short stories to the person. I\ncan't seem to sit and read through a collection, and find myself picking\nstories to read based on their titles, summaries, or what I've heard. If\ninstead you had your own list of selected short stories, I think that could\nwork well. That way your friend could try out a few without too much\ninvestment. Some of my favorites:\n\nThe" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joel Sieh", "address": "joel.sieh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-15T13:43:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let's try that again. That will teach me to use bleeding edge technology\n(Safari win beta)!\n\nI got started with BotNS, and that's what hooked me. However, some of the\npeople I've recommended it to couldn't get past Shadow & Claw.\n\nI don't think I'd recommend a collection of short stories to the person. I\ncan't seem to sit and read through a collection, and find myself picking\nstories to read based on their titles, summaries, or what I've heard. If\ninstead you had your own list of selected short stories, I think that could\nwork well. That way your friend could try out a few without too much\ninvestment. Some of my favorites:\n\nThe Hero as Werwolf (Castle of Days?)\nThe Death of Doctor Island (The Island of Doctor Death, etc.)\nTracking Song (The Island of Doctor Death, etc.)\nThe Ziggurat (Strange Travelers)\nQueen of the Night (Strange Travelers)\nRattler (Starwater Strains)\n\n--Joel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20070615134747.20F551BA77@che.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "hammstu", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2007-06-15T13:47:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I got hooked on the way\"Blueberry Jam\" and \"Ain't you 'most Done\" played off\neach other.\n\n \n\n _____ \n\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On\nBehalf Of Joel Sieh\nSent: Friday, June 15, 2007 6:43 AM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) A Question\n\n \n\nLet's try that again. That will teach me to use bleeding edge technology\n(Safari win beta)!\n\nI got started with BotNS, and that's what hooked me. However, some of the\npeople I've recommended it to couldn't get past Shadow & Claw. \n\nI don't think I'd recommend a collection of short stories to the person. I\ncan't seem to sit and read through a collection, and find myself picking\nstories to read based on their titles, summaries, or what I've heard. If\ninstead you had your own list of selected short stories, I think that could\nwork well. That way your friend could try out a few without too much\ninvestment. Some of my favorites: \n\nThe Hero as Werwolf (Castle of Days?)\nThe Death of Doctor Island (The Island of Doctor Death, etc.)\nTracking Song (The Island of Doctor Death, etc.)\nThe Ziggurat (Strange Travelers)\nQueen of the Night (Strange Travelers) \nRattler (Starwater Strains)\n\n\n--Joel " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joel Sieh", "address": "joel.sieh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-15T14:08:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Question", "in_reply_to": "<20070615134747.20F551BA77@che.dreamhost.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/15/07, hammstu wrote:\n\n I got hooked on the way\"Blueberry Jam\" and \"Ain't you 'most Done\" played\noff each other?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I enjoyed those, too. I felt like Wolfe using Neil Gaiman's world and\ncharacters was a little gimmicky, but it didn't wreck my enjoyment of the\nstories. I think I liked Bluesberry Jam a little better because of this,\nand also because it showed a world stuck in a crazy traffic jam. :)\n\n--Joel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<103077.14886.qm@web30809.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Tom Kenney", "address": "tkenneyjr at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-15T16:03:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello,\n\nLong time lurker here, coming out of the woodwork for a few reasons.\n\nRegarding the Question: there's no easy way to get into Wolfe. You need to\ntake the long view. Give them a copy of Shadow&Claw and let them work their\nway through it. If they like it - great! If not, then let it lie for a while,\nperhaps making the occasional comment about the Tower being a spaceship or\nsuch. Let their interest build until they have the chance to pick it up again.\n The reread is what got me hooked. \n\nThe first time I read TBotNS I was fifteen, the text seemed boring compared to\nother SF I was reading and I doubted I would read it again.. The second time I\nwas 23 and enjoyed it superficially; I had picked it off the shelf by chance\nthat time, heading to the airport. The third time was when I really sunk my\nteeth into it, armed with some of the tips and answers from this list. It was\nalso the time I read the majority of it aloud (to my then girlfriend now wife).\n If there was ever a book that would benefit from an audio recording it would\nbe TBotNS. Wolfe's prose sings when spoken, and many of the mysteries that\nmight sneak past tired eyes lodged firmly in my ear.\n\nI'm also feeling quite lucky to be at the Hall of Fame Induction on Saturday. \nAs a few people have said, the Man isn't doing much traveling any more.\n\nCheers,\nshampoohorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<535104.30721.qm@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-15T17:25:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Andy Robertson wrote:\nDoes anyone ever suspect that GW might not know what\nhe is writing or (to be \nmore precise) exactly how each bit of each story\nfits in to the overall \npattern he is trying to weave? \n\nThat writing might sometimes be a purely instinctive\nthing, grasping at \nvague mad visions? \n\nThat GW might sometimes be as surprised by what\nhappens and as ignorant of \nthe \"real\" meaning of it as you or I? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "God, I hope so. We can always use another insane\ngenius in literature. But I think it's more the case\nthat rather than creating this ridiculously\ncomplicated architecture in his fiction, he has an\nunderstanding of a sort of universal vagueness that\nallows things to create their own complexity. I think\nhe takes his cue from the bible and other great\nreligious texts and myths that have endured precisely\n(ha!) because no one interpretation can be\ndefinitively pinned on them. That's not to say he\ndoesn't have something in mind, but it does seem that\nhe is willing to subvert even his own opinion of what\nthe story should mean. \n\nDon\n\nThe Evangelists: a Lesser Apocrypha http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=178109961\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<200706151815.51213.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-06-15T22:15:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<911852.7250.qm@web81411.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Friday 15 June 2007 09:35, Stuart Hamm wrote:\nSo wait...does this mean I'm not a complete Moron if I can't figure out\neverything that is (and is not) happening in the stories????" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If it does, we need to change the name of the list form urth.net to moron.net. \nAnyone who claims that he knows everything that is (and is not) happening in \na Wolfe story and isn't named Gene Wolfe is a liar. (And even he's suspect.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-16T03:44:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<535104.30721.qm@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Andy Robertson wrote:\nDoes anyone ever suspect that GW might not know what\nhe is writing or (to be\nmore precise) exactly how each bit of each story\nfits in to the overall\npattern he is trying to weave?\n\nI truly believe Wolfe is more aware of the varieties of information that \nhe puts into his storie/books than just about anyone else I have ever read. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At the same time I am confident that no one is aware of everything they put \ninto a work as lengthy as The Devil in the Forest (correct name?) much less \nBotNS." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001601c7afce$ab196340$140d000a@its.verizon.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-16T04:27:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Science Fiction Hall of Fame, Seattle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey,\n\nIn case anyone else is going to be there. I'll be at the Science Fiction \nAwards events on Saturday.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<009e01c7afd3$4e37aba0$140d000a@its.verizon.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-16T05:00:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Question", "in_reply_to": "<667793.88044.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I read \"New Sun\" first. I came away from it convinced that Wolfe was a phenominal creator of worlds but only a so-so writer. I thought that because:\n\n1. Wolfe failed to make clear and/or resolve key plot elements by the end of the book.\n\n2. Wolfe would go into great detail describing something Severian's childhood relationship with a dog or enjoying quiet-time in a mausoleum and then relate the death of the alzabo in a single sentence.\n\nNow, of course, I realize these complaints are like criticizing Rock&Roll music because \"it could lead to dancing\". The next Wolfe story I read was \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\" and suddenly I \"got it\". At that point I began telling people that Wolfe was THE finest science fiction writer period.\n\nSo I don't know where to start with Wolfe. Probably, a recommendation from a someone you trust is the best introduction to Wolfe.\n\nJ\n ----- Original Message ----- \n From: Stuart Hamm " } ] }, { "message_id": "<001d01c7b070$e71e5920$4dcb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-06-16T23:48:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, contradictory thoughts, but I can't seem to help it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Matthew Groves quoted and wrote:\nSince Cutthroat is clearly not native to the planet and came to be there\nby way of the beings on the Sleigh, is he the same type of being as they or\nis he not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think he is not. I think Cutthroat is a man like us." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then our views of this story are further apart than I thought. We agree that\nCutthroat is not the same type of being as those who are responsible for the\nSleigh, but I think there has to be a dog in his family tree, just as there\nis a lion in Ketin's and a wolf in Longknife's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Remember Master\nMalrubius's analogy somewhere in TbotNS (I think before they leave Nessus)\nabout Man's relationship to the Increate being of the same nature as\nTriskele's relationship to Severian? I think this is how we are to\nunderstand TS. In terms of CotW, Cutthroat's relationship to the Great\nSleigh is analogous to Buck's relationship to John Thornton. I think there\nmay be other Sleigh dogs like Cutthroat, but I think there are also\nMushers,\nor at least a Musher. The Sleigh dogs are men; the Mushers are, in some\nsense, divine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why divine? Where is the evidence?\n\nTerms like \"man\" and \"men\" are used loosely in TS and, depending on who is\nusing them, mean different things. Each of the beastmen tribes seems to\nrefer to members of its own species as men, but members of different types\nof tribes are fair game (pun intended), because it is less clear whether\nthey regard the other types of beastmen as also being \"men\" on a\nmore-or-less equal moral footing or not.\n\nLongknife flat-out stated that Cutthroat was *not* a man, and all but stated\nexplicitly that Nashhwonk and all the other talking species were \"animals\".\nHis use of the word \"man\", in context, clearly extends only to members of\nthe wolfmen. Their *tribal* law mandates that the tribe not kill and eat its\nown kind, but that law is superceded by the law of survival, which requires\nthat, if food becomes scarce enough, Crookedleg will be killed and eaten\nbecause he is the weakest member and cannot prevent it. That was the threat\nCutthroat faced if he stayed with the wolfmen; he was not a man of their\nspecies and could therefore be killed and eaten even before Crookedleg, if\ncircumstances demanded it.\n\nOf course, there is always something else to muddy the water. One of the\nother wolfmen told Cutthroat there were \"Many men and women, all dressed\nlike you.\" on the Sleigh. Obviously, he is not using \"men\" in the same sense\nas Longknife.\n\nNashhwonk left human footprints, and Cutthroat spoke of him as a man.\nCutthroat said to him, \"I don't hunt people. I thought we were after an\nanimal.\" Cutthroat was ashamed of having hunted him, and he saw the body\ndismembered. If there was any telltale mark of a beast about Nashhwonk, I\nfind no mention of it. Even his great size relative to the wolfmen seems to\nbe in the same proportion as a human to a wolf.\n\nMore mud. Nashhwonk said he was called Mankiller. He said the legs of his\nchair (how many animals use chairs?) were bound with sinews cut from a man's\nleg. He makes it absolutely clear that he does not regard the wolfmen as the\nsame kind of being that provided the sinews. So which species provided the\nsinews if it wasn't his own?\n\nEggseeker said, \"We knew you were from the Great Sleigh by your dress and\nyour face -- like all of them, you look much like the Wiggikki, but we see\nyou are not cruel, as they are.\" Note the \"all of them\". Everyone from the\nSleigh that Eggseeker's people saw looked like Cutthroat, and Cutthroat\nlooked much like the wolfmen, only less savage. Nice doggie. No \"Mushers\" in\nsight moralizing or showing video of the planet's idyllic future.\n\nStill, who is the \"you\" Cutthroat addresses in the recorder/transmitter, and\nwhy will that entity not communicate with him?\n\nI am tempted to suggest that the cutoff in communication (intended to last\nfor, say, fourteen days) was punishment for some minor infraction (say, the\nequivalent of a dog peeing in the house), only the punishment had unintended\nconsequences. [\"If you're going to act like a dog, see how you like being\ntreated like a dog.\" Later: \"Oh, you poor thing! Let's see if I can make it\nall better.\"] This is essentially a religious argument, from the perspective\nof those who hold that being cut off from God is its own Hell. But this\nsuggestion fits Matthew G.'s position rather than mine, so forget it. \n\nI just don't see any evidence in TS that any great crime was committed by\nCutthroat that got him expelled from the Sleigh. I don't see any evidence of\ndivinity associated with the Sleigh, unless it is that winged man at the end\nof the story. And I'm not even sure the winged man has anything to do with\nthe Sleigh. The winged man is definitely not the \"you\" addressed by\nCutthroat; indeed, Cutthroat seems never to have seen such a creature\nbefore.\n\nReturning to the CotW angle; by the time Buck encountered John Thornton he\nhad already turned his back on men. Only his fear of what men had done and\ncould do to him again kept him in his place. Buck would have died but for\nThornton's interference and ministrations. Even back in sunny California,\nthough Buck had never been abused, neither had he been treated with any\nparticular regard. It's only natural that he came to \"love\" Thornton, the\nonly man who ever treated him so well. But in Buck's experience, Thornton\nwas a fluke, and even he was killed by other men.\n\nThe irony of the situation is that, had Buck never come to \"love\" a man, he\nwould never have become a man killer. Was Cutthroat ever in an analogous\nsituation with someone on the Great Sleigh, the \"you\" he remembered at the\nend? Or is that carrying the analogy too far?\n\nOr is it indeed just a \"lost dog\" story, as someone once suggested? There\nwas no crime, no punishment. Crewman Cutthroat became separated by some\nmischance from the Sleigh and, like a real dog or small child, lacked the\nintellectual capacity to fully understand his situation. The psychological\ntrauma of being what he can understand only as abandoned caused his amnesia.\nHe started chasing the Sleigh, like a silly dog, got distracted by other\nanimals and had adventures, got hurt and laid himself down to die. The\nSleigh, having completed its mission and having heard reports of him, comes\nhurrying to find him, but is probably too late. And the winged man turns out\nto be just a carrion eater, or else an angel come to collect his human soul,\ndepending on one's religious preference.\n\nWhy did the \"you\" on the other end of the transmitter -- if there was anyone\nthere at all -- not speak to him? I don't know (and I may not be the first\nto say this; can't remember), but it may have something to do with Man\nhaving lost the ability to speak and understand the language of the animals.\nThe various tribes of animals all spoke the same language, but the person on\nthe other end of the transmitter, if he were a true man, might not have\nunderstood Cutthroat's plight until it was translated for him by another\ncrewman. The true man (or men) may have stayed out of sight in the \"big hut\"\non the Sleigh.\n\nBut that's reaching.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200706162101.17708.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-06-17T01:01:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<001d01c7b070$e71e5920$4dcb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Saturday 16 June 2007 19:48, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nNashhwonk left human footprints, and Cutthroat spoke of him as a man.\nCutthroat said to him, \"I don't hunt people. I thought we were after an\nanimal.\" Cutthroat was ashamed of having hunted him, and he saw the body\ndismembered. If there was any telltale mark of a beast about Nashhwonk, I\nfind no mention of it. Even his great size relative to the wolfmen seems to\nbe in the same proportion as a human to a wolf." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's another angle I'd never considered. Is Nashwonk not a giant but merely \nan ordinary sized man, and the other characters in the story still roughly \nthe same size as their animal counterparts?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0706162127y56e2371ag45a283a8bc08f309@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-17T04:27:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<200706162101.17708.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the dogness of Cutthroat, Roy writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then our views of this story are further apart than I thought. We agree\nthat\nCutthroat is not the same type of being as those who are responsible for\nthe\nSleigh, but I think there has to be a dog in his family tree, just as\nthere\nis a lion in Ketin's and a wolf in Longknife's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think we're that far apart; it's just a matter of how literal we're\nbeing. Cutthroat is a dog-man in the story. I said, \"Cutthroat is a man like\nus,\" meaning that he is not some kind of higher being like the Great\nSleigher he's talking to. In the hierarchy of TS's universe, with it's wild\ntribes and unapproachable Great Sleighers, Cutthroat occupies a position\nanalogous to our own.\n\nOn the divinity of the Great Sleighers:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where is the evidence?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First, we have the sense that they are Visitors to this world, bringing some\nsort of Promise of Salvation, along with lots of new Laws. Then there's the\nsense that Cutthroat is on a Pilgrim's Progress. And one of his entries from\nnear the end reads like a prayer of supplication: \"I hear your breathing as\nwell, though you are far ahead in the Great Sleigh, and I wonder why it is\nyou cannot speak. Am I being tested? If I pass, do the right thing, if only\nonce, will you talk to me then?\" Above all, though, there is the tall,\nwinged being atop the Juggernaut at the end.\n\nOn the beastness of Nashhwonk:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If there was any telltale mark of a beast about Nashhwonk, I find no\nmention of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The telltale mark of the beast is, ironically, his \"chair,\" which is his\nantlers. From the context, I assume that Nashhwonk is intimating that the\nsinews binding his \"marriage of wood\" are from men like Cutthroat, but this\nmay just be bluster. Male moose are notoriously dangerous if you get too\nclose, and when the fuzzy flesh that covers their antlers while they are\ngrowing begins to fall off, those bloody scraps that hang off their antlers\nare pretty suggestive." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I just don't see any evidence in TS that any great crime was committed by\nCutthroat that got him expelled from the Sleigh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "His name is Cutthroat; that has to mean something. I suggested that, in\nlight of Call of the Wild, it has something to do with Buck's tearing the\nthroats of the Yeehat Indians after the death of John Thornton. But if you\ndon't think something like this CotW episode is in Cutthroat's past, then\nyou have to find some other reason for his name. This is Wolfe, after all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see any evidence of\ndivinity associated with the Sleigh, unless it is that winged man at the\nend\nof the story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You need *more* than a winged man? Some might have said that Wolfe lacked\nsubtlety. Some might have said the religious iconography was layed on a\nlittle thick here..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I'm not even sure the winged man has anything to do with\nthe Sleigh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, he's *on* it, so there's that. Why the sudden agnosticism regarding\nthe winged man? Do you seriously think he's a carrion bird?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The winged man is definitely not the \"you\" addressed by\nCutthroat; indeed, Cutthroat seems never to have seen such a creature\nbefore." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's because he's forgotten everything, unless you think he's regained all\nhis memory upon seeing the Great Sleigh. But there's nothing in the text to\nsuggest that.\n\nMatt G." } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0706162214v4ec9307exaa00f2a637ea5d98@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-17T05:14:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0706162127y56e2371ag45a283a8bc08f309@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is Nashwonk not a giant but merely\nan ordinary sized man, and the other characters in the story still roughly\nthe same size as their animal counterparts?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so. There are several giants in the story, and I'm\nconvinced they all correspond to large animals. Nashhwonk is a moose (the\nchair is his antlers), Mimmunka is some kind of large cat (\"feminine\"\nappearance, high cheekbones, big green eyes, soft-looking hand, cruelly\nhooked weapon), Ketin is a lion (big eyes, mane). The tall, winged man at\nthe end is obviously some kind of bird, whatever else he may represent." } ] }, { "message_id": "<003501c7b0b4$d98c4940$35cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-06-17T07:55:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0706162214v4ec9307exaa00f2a637ea5d98@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel D Jones quoted and wrote:\nEven his great size relative to the wolfmen seems to\nbe in the same proportion as a human to a wolf." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's another angle I'd never considered. Is Nashwonk not a giant but\nmerely\nan ordinary sized man, and the other characters in the story still roughly\nthe same size as their animal counterparts?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of Nashhwonk's fingers was as large as Cutthroat's wrist and his legs\nwere longer than Cutthroat was tall, so it depends. Allowances have to be\nmade for size differences due to the lower gravity of the small planet\nrelative to Cutthroat's home planet. As I see it, each species of beastmen\nlooks more-or-less human. I think that was the point of the genetic\ntinkering that produced them. When the humans and their civilization died\nout, the beastmen reverted to their animal skills to survive.\n\nCutthroat's height only came up to the wolfmen's shoulders, whereas in CotW\nBuck was much bigger than any wolf.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<004a01c7b0b5$2ff987c0$35cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-06-17T07:57:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<003501c7b0b4$d98c4940$35cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Matthew Groves quoted and wrote:\nIf there was any telltale mark of a beast about Nashhwonk, I find no\nmention of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The telltale mark of the beast is, ironically, his \"chair,\" which is his\nantlers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's sitting on his own head? \"Sitting in the very center of it [the Sleigh\ntrack], in a massive, high-backed chair of dark wood, was a man bigger than\nI had ever conceived that a man could be. He was facing me [. . .]\"\nNashhwonk later rose from the chair and walked around it. Is this incident\n\"just a matter of how literal we're being\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I just don't see any evidence in TS that any great crime was committed by\nCutthroat that got him expelled from the Sleigh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His name is Cutthroat; that has to mean something. I suggested that, in\nlight of Call of the Wild, it has something to do with Buck's tearing the\nthroats of the Yeehat Indians after the death of John Thornton. But if you\ndon't think something like this CotW episode is in Cutthroat's past, then\nyou have to find some other reason for his name. This is Wolfe, after all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, but the name was given to him *after* he departed the Sleigh *by* the\nwolfmen. They knew nothing of his past. Names bestowed by the beastmen are\nlargely descriptive; witness Crookedleg's new name. Cutthroat said they gave\nhim that name because of his \"reddish-brown birthmark\". You earlier\nsuggested that the \"birthmark\" was an analogue of Buck's forced submission\nby a rope around the neck. You also suggest the name Cutthroat is a\nreference to a hypothetical, past analogue of Buck's well-earned reputation\nas a man killer. And, yes, a symbol can represent more than one thing. The\nproblem for me is, it is Cutthroat who is carrying the mark that should be\non his victim(s). In other words, the descriptive name given by the wolfmen\nsuggests to me that Cutthroat was on the receiving end of a cut throat." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The winged man is definitely not the \"you\" addressed by\nCutthroat; indeed, Cutthroat seems never to have seen such a creature\nbefore." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's because he's forgotten everything, unless you think he's regained\nall\nhis memory upon seeing the Great Sleigh. But there's nothing in the text\nto\nsuggest that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He may not have regained it all, but he did remember who \"you\" was, and it\nwas not the winged man, who was \"with you\". If the winged man is divine,\nthen there is no reason for \"you\" to be divine also, even if \"you\" is divine\nonly by analogy. If \"you\" is to Cutthroat as God is to Man, why is the\nwinged man there at all?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0706170913i46584356k8ff351dc6ebd6598@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-17T16:13:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<004a01c7b0b5$2ff987c0$35cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Nashhwonk's chair as his antlers, Roy writes skeptically:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He's sitting on his own head? \"Sitting in the very center of it [the\nSleigh\ntrack], in a massive, high-backed chair of dark wood, was a man bigger\nthan\nI had ever conceived that a man could be. He was facing me [. . .]\"\nNashhwonk later rose from the chair and walked around it. Is this incident\n\"just a matter of how literal we're being\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. If you accept that the Wiggikki are a wolf tribe, you should have no\ntrouble accepting that Nashhwonk is a moose. All the animal tribes are\nhumanoids that have weapons that are keyed to their real-wold animal\ncounterparts. Mimmunka has a \"polearm ending in cruel hooks, like fishhooks,\nmade from the ribs of some large animal.\" These represent Mimmunka's claws.\nThe Pamigaka have \"short-handled tools with heavy, curved blades.\" These\nrepresent the Pamigaka's tusks.\n\nOn the meaning of Cutthroat's name:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, but the name was given to him *after* he departed the Sleigh *by*\nthe\nwolfmen. They knew nothing of his past. [...]\nYou earlier\nsuggested that the \"birthmark\" was an analogue of Buck's forced submission\nby a rope around the neck. You also suggest the name Cutthroat is a\nreference to a hypothetical, past analogue of Buck's well-earned\nreputation\nas a man killer. And, yes, a symbol can represent more than one thing. The\nproblem for me is, it is Cutthroat who is carrying the mark that should be\non his victim(s). [...]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe I should be clearer about at what level I'm looking at the story when\nI make these claims. There's more than one symbol here, and more than one\nmeaning for each. Ultimately, it's Wolfe who gave Cutthroat his name, and\nI'm looking for what *he* might have meant by it. Also, I'm keeping the\n\"birthmark\" and the nickname somewhat separate as symbols. And I still like\nBorski's \"mark of Cain\" interpretation.\" So I think Cutthroat's \"birthmark\"\nrepresents his exile via the Cain story and his loss of freedom via CotW.\nThe name \"Cutthroat\" means \"killer,\" so I think Wolfe is saying that this\nguy is a killer in some sense.\n\nOn the divinity of \"you\" in the story:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He may not have regained it all, but he did remember who \"you\" was, and it\nwas not the winged man, who was \"with you\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't read it this way. I think the \"you\" at the end of the story is\nplural, or collective. He sees some strange thing coming from the east,\nspeculates that it's another sledge, but no, it couldn't be on this melting\nsnow, and it's too large, so maybe the warmth revived Roller, but no it's\neven bigger than that, \"As big as a hill, and there are *people standing on\nit*.\" (Emphasis mine.) Then he recognizes them for what they are: the Great\nSleighers. And then he sees something strange: \"Who is that tall man with\nyou [i.e., with y'all people standing on the Sleigh]?\" So it's not necessary\nto assume that Cutthroat has remembered anything at all.\n\nMatt G." } ] }, { "message_id": "<005001c7b164$ee89c240$d9c85a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-06-18T04:55:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0706170913i46584356k8ff351dc6ebd6598@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Matthew Groves quoted and wrote:\nNashhwonk later rose from the chair and walked around it. Is this\nincident\n\"just a matter of how literal we're being\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. If you accept that the Wiggikki are a wolf tribe, you should have no\ntrouble accepting that Nashhwonk is a moose." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have no trouble accepting the animal origins of the various beastmen\ntribes or the retention of species-specific attributes as manifested by\ntheir use of tools and weapons. But, *in the story*, those tools and weapons\nare *really* tools and weapons, not just symbols. For instance, Cutthroat\nmade use of a sail and sledge he got from the wolfmen, and Cim used\nCutthroat's pocketknife and recorder. And all of the beastmen apparently\nmade use of fire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe I should be clearer about at what level I'm looking at the story when\nI make these claims. There's more than one symbol here, and more than one\nmeaning for each." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And this is the root of our divergent views. I tend to get down in the dirt\nand follow the plow. The rising of the Pelerines' tent cathedral really was\ndue to a lot of hot air -- whether you choose to also call it a miracle or\nnot. Severian and Dorcas, having witnessed the \"miracle\", discussed this\nissue in chapter 32 of SHADOW, when he asked her if she knew the key to the\nuniverse:\n\n\"The brown book is a collection of the myths of the past, and it has a\nsection listing all the keys of the universe--all the things people have\nsaid were The Secret after they had talked to mystagogues on far worlds or\nstudied the popul vuh of the magicians, or fasted in the trunks of holy\ntrees. Thecla and I used to read them and talk about them, and one of them\nwas that everything, whatever happens, has three meanings. The first is its\npractical meaning, what the book calls, 'the thing the plowman sees.' The\ncow has taken a mouthful of grass, and it is real grass, and a real\ncow--that meaning is as important and as true as either of the others. The\nsecond is the reflection of the world about it. Every object is in contact\nwith all others, and thus the wise can learn of the others by observing the\nfirst. That might be called the soothsayers' meaning, because it is the one\nsuch people use when they prophesy a fortunate meeting from the tracks of\nserpents or confirm the outcome of a love affair by putting the elector of\none suit atop the patroness of another.\"\n \"And the third meaning?\" Dorcas asked.\n \"The third is the transsubstantial meaning. Since all objects have their\nultimate origin in the Pancreator, and all were set in motion by him, so all\nmust express his will--which is the higher reality.\"\n[. . .]\n\" Dorcas nodded. I could see the glimmer of her pale hair in the moonlight.\n\"It seems to me that what you call the third meaning is very clear. But the\nsecond meaning is harder to find, and the first, which ought to be the\neasiest, is impossible.\"\n__________________________________\n\nI agree with Dorcas; it's a tough job, but someone has to do it. Whatever\nthe soothsayer may have to say about the grass, the cow can eat it only if\nit's real grass. In TS, the surface story has to work or else the symbols\nget hung out to dry.\n\nIn the surface story, the animal tribes are physically much nearer to human\nform than they are to their respective animal forms. It is their collective,\nalmost-human nature that unites them despite their innate bestial\ninclinations to war with one another for survival; they just need to be\nreminded of it. Cutthroat failed the test the Min vizier game him when he\ndidn't kill Cim and Ketin, even when they were penned together. But at the\nsame time he passed the same test by *not* killing them, in his own eyes\nand, presumably, in the ears of whomever was listening on the other end of\nthe transmitter when he recorded that day's events. It took cooperation\namong species to escape the room, the underground city and for Cutthroat to\nsurvive on the trail afterwards.\n\nI have to figure out what happened in the story before I can figure out what\nWolfe meant by it. With Wolfe, that is often the bigger part of the battle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And then he sees something strange: \"Who is that tall man with\nyou [i.e., with y'all people standing on the Sleigh]?\" So it's not\nnecessary\nto assume that Cutthroat has remembered anything at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since you brought up alga's comments on this story, you may have noticed\nthat she also thought there was only one winged being on the Sleigh. Its\nwings are what distinguish it from \"you\", whether \"you\" is singular, plural\nor collective. As alga said, the Sleigh made several stops among the\nbeastmen tribes and none of them reported seeing any winged beings. They saw\npeople who looked and dressed like Cutthroat.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0706180741m2268630t89475c1f71fba80@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-18T14:41:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<005001c7b164$ee89c240$d9c85a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And this is the root of our divergent views. I tend to get down in the\ndirt\nand follow the plow." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought I was following the plow. What does yours look like?\n\nI hereby attest that all these facts are true:\nNashhwonk's chair really is a chair, just as Mimmunka's polearm really is a\npolearm.\nCutthroat's name was given to him by the Wiggikki.\nThere is only one winged being on the Sleigh.\n\nHere's some more interesting facts:\nThe epigraph is from the Aeneid.\nAeneus is a hero from the Iliad.\n\"Sing, O Muse, of the rage of Achilles.\"\n \"Mankiller\" is an epithet of Achilles.\nNashhwonk is called \"Mankiller.\"\nNashhwonk is felled by cutting his Achilles tendon.\n\nMaybe I'm just not cut out for a plowman.\n\nMatt G." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c7b230$36358540$1cc95a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-06-19T05:10:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song and The Call of the Wild", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0706180741m2268630t89475c1f71fba80@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:\nHere's some more interesting facts:\nThe epigraph is from the Aeneid.\nAeneus is a hero from the Iliad.\n\"Sing, O Muse, of the rage of Achilles.\"\n\"Mankiller\" is an epithet of Achilles.\nNashhwonk is called \"Mankiller.\"\nNashhwonk is felled by cutting his Achilles tendon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Mankiller's tendon was cut by Cutthroat.\nMankiller's throat was cut by wolfish Longknife.\n\nSo, when you mix Greek, Roman and Hebrew mythologies with Jack London and\nWolfe, what do you get? A presumed man killer called Cutthroat helped kill a\nhumanoid called Mankiller by exploiting a well-known human weak spot." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe I'm just not cut out for a plowman." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or I'm not cut out to be a soothsayer. Will you elaborate on how the\nmoose-man's fate relates to the rest of Wolfe's story?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-21T15:55:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Question", "in_reply_to": "<009e01c7afd3$4e37aba0$140d000a@its.verizon.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's my picks for some of Wolfe's best and/or most accessible short work:\n\n\"Trip, Trap,\"\n\"Forlessen,\"\n\"Westwind,\"\n\"War Beneath the Tree,\"\n\"The Other Dead Man,\"\n\"A Cabin on The Coast,\"\n\"The Last Thrilling Wonder Story,\"\n\"When I Was Ming the Merciless,\"\n\"Death of Doctor Island,\"\n\"Seven American Nights,\"\n\"Tracking Song\"\nThe Horars of War\"\n\"How I Lost the Second World War and Helped Turn Back the German Invasion\"\n\nRostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370706211047w3d1b591bs65dd07b2c7b1a859@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-21T17:47:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For introductory Wolfe shorts (both \"good\" and \"accessible\"),\nI would suggest, in roughly this order:\n\n\"With the Lafayette Escadrille\"\n\"War Beneath the Tree\"\n\"Detective of Dreams\"\n\"La Befana\"\nthe one about Peter Pan on the island, can't recall title\n\"Westwind\"\n\"The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories\"\n\nThese are all pretty accessible, but become slightly more\ndifficult and/or allusive as you go along. I would absolutely\ngive \"tIoDDaOS\" to someone before any of the other island\ndoctor stories, though I agree that \"The Death of Doctor\nIsland\" is a bit more immediately accessible, because I\nhave always felt that there is a real sequence to them, though\nI can't explain just what it is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/21/07, Michael Straight wrote:\nHere's my picks for some of Wolfe's best and/or most accessible short work:\n\n\"Trip, Trap,\"\n\"Forlessen,\"\n\"Westwind,\"\n\"War Beneath the Tree,\"\n\"The Other Dead Man,\"\n\"A Cabin on The Coast,\"\n\"The Last Thrilling Wonder Story,\"\n\"When I Was Ming the Merciless,\"\n\"Death of Doctor Island,\"\n\"Seven American Nights,\"\n\"Tracking Song\"\nThe Horars of War\"\n\"How I Lost the Second World War and Helped Turn Back the German Invasion\"\n\nRostrum\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-21T18:48:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Question", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370706211047w3d1b591bs65dd07b2c7b1a859@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 21, 2007, at 12:47 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nFor introductory Wolfe shorts (both \"good\" and \"accessible\"),\nI would suggest, in roughly this order:\n\n\"With the Lafayette Escadrille\"\n\"War Beneath the Tree\"\n\"Detective of Dreams\"\n\"La Befana\"\nthe one about Peter Pan on the island, can't recall title\n\"Westwind\"\n\"The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The first time I read \"La Befana\", I thought: \"That is freaking \nstupid\".\n\nI immediately re-read the story and realized that I was freaking stupid.\n\nThe Peter Pan story is \"The Changeling\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Megan Bugge", "address": "srapollo at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-22T04:22:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Question", "in_reply_to": "<274845.91514.qm@web38506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20070621/8744c1c9/attachment.htm " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-22T11:05:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Question of where to begin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My experience with trying to get people to read BoTNS has been negative. I \nthink it is because of the relatively slow start. While some of it is only \nsuggested, there's a lot of \"action\" around Latro's introduction==violence, \nsex, con games, multiracial friendships.==not to mention not having three or \nfour add'l books to be threatened with. I would like to be wrong. I love \nLatro, but there is definitely more total in Severian's stories\n\nDate: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 23:22:56 -0500\n\n\n\nBook of the New Sun is a perfect place to start. The trick to getting \nsomeone to stick with the books is to be honest. It is a challenging read, \nmore so than anything I've ever read before. It is also dark and \nbeautiful. The beginning is slow, but it is on purpose. Trust this author. \nYou will be rewarded for your loyalty. (at least this has always worked for \nme)\n\nOf course, the Soldier series is everything described below, and might be \neasier to chew. On the other hand, if someone does not like BotNS... \nPerhaps it's a trial by fire sort of a deal. GW isn't an author for people \nwho like to be spoon fed their stories.\n\n~Megan\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nI am probably in the minority on this, but I think the Soldier series is a \nfantastic place to start. “It's language is as clear-cut as The Knight's is, \nbut it's set in a world most people are at east passing familiar \nwith. ?Maybe if you include a little cheat sheet that translates the places \nand gods from?Latro-speak into English, they could at least?surf through the \nstory and wallow in?Wolfe's brilliant realization of ancient Greece. \nThey're bound to realize there's more down below...”?\n???\n?? ??\n???\n???\n???\n\n\n PC Magazine’s 2007 editors? choice for best Web mail award-winning Windows \nLive Hotmail." } ] }, { "message_id": "<641788.10299.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "jason wichlacz", "address": "borisdancing at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-22T15:38:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've decided that Long Sun is a great place to people.\nI started with New Sun and it took me several tries\nbefore I got thru it. I love it now and enjoyed it\nthen too but it was work. I know now that Wolfe is\nworth the work but when breaking in a newbie it might\nmake sense to give them something a little more\nuser-friendly. Long Sun has warmth, humor, likable\ncharcters, action, and introduces us to some of Gene's\nlarger themes and puzzle play in a somewhat more\ngentle way. I just finished reading Long Sun to my\nwife and she loved it. I think she trusts Gene enough\nnow to try either Latro or Severian but I don't think\nshe would have stuck with either without the inro to\nwhat Wolfe can do given in the slightly more gentle\nform of Long Sun.\n\nIt was Megan who while working in a book store hooked\nme on Neil Gaiman and especially Wolfe and all I can\nsay is Thank you, thank you thank you thank you.\n\nJason\n\n\n\n--- Megan Bugge wrote:\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nBook of the New Sun is a perfect place to start. The\ntrick to getting someone to stick with the books is to\nbe honest. It is a challenging read, more so than\nanything I've ever read before. It is also dark and\nbeautiful. The beginning is slow, but it is on\npurpose. Trust this author. You will be rewarded for\nyour loyalty. (at least this has always worked for\nme)\n\nOf course, the Soldier series is everything described\nbelow, and might be easier to chew. On the other\nhand, if someone does not like BotNS... Perhaps it's\na trial by fire sort of a deal. GW isn't an author\nfor people who like to be spoon fed their stories.\n\n~Megan\n\n\n\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\n\n\nI am probably in the minority on this, but I think the\nSoldier series is a fantastic place to start. It's\nlanguage is as clear-cut as The Knight's is, but it's\nset in a world most people are at east passing\nfamiliar with. Maybe if you include a little cheat\nsheet that translates the places and gods from\nLatro-speak into English, they could at least surf\nthrough the story and wallow in Wolfe's brilliant\nrealization of ancient Greece. They're bound to\nrealize there's more down below...\n \n \n \n \n \n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<485607.91146.qm@web81410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2007-06-22T15:42:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Question", "in_reply_to": "<641788.10299.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I love the Long Sun as well, and greatly enjoyed re-reading a few months back, but I'm not sure I agree that it's a good starting place...there's an awful lot of dialogue and it's easy to get trapped down in those mines...\n\njason wichlacz wrote: I've decided that Long Sun is a great place to people.\nI started with New Sun and it took me several tries\nbefore I got thru it. I love it now and enjoyed it\nthen too but it was work. I know now that Wolfe is\nworth the work but when breaking in a newbie it might\nmake sense to give them something a little more\nuser-friendly. Long Sun has warmth, humor, likable\ncharcters, action, and introduces us to some of Gene's\nlarger themes and puzzle play in a somewhat more\ngentle way. I just finished reading Long Sun to my\nwife and she loved it. I think she trusts Gene enough\nnow to try either Latro or Severian but I don't think\nshe would have stuck with either without the inro to\nwhat Wolfe can do given in the slightly more gentle\nform of Long Sun.\n\nIt was Megan who while working in a book store hooked\nme on Neil Gaiman and especially Wolfe and all I can\nsay is Thank you, thank you thank you thank you.\n\nJason\n\n\n\n--- Megan Bugge wrote:\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nBook of the New Sun is a perfect place to start. The\ntrick to getting someone to stick with the books is to\nbe honest. It is a challenging read, more so than\nanything I've ever read before. It is also dark and\nbeautiful. The beginning is slow, but it is on\npurpose. Trust this author. You will be rewarded for\nyour loyalty. (at least this has always worked for\nme)\n\nOf course, the Soldier series is everything described\nbelow, and might be easier to chew. On the other\nhand, if someone does not like BotNS... Perhaps it's\na trial by fire sort of a deal. GW isn't an author\nfor people who like to be spoon fed their stories.\n\n~Megan\n\n\n\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\n\n\nI am probably in the minority on this, but I think the\nSoldier series is a fantastic place to start. It's\nlanguage is as clear-cut as The Knight's is, but it's\nset in a world most people are at east passing\nfamiliar with. Maybe if you include a little cheat\nsheet that translates the places and gods from\nLatro-speak into English, they could at least surf\nthrough the story and wallow in Wolfe's brilliant\nrealization of ancient Greece. They're bound to\nrealize there's more down below...\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n---------------------------------\nPC Magazine’s 2007 editors? choice for best Web\nmail award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. >\n\n\n\n\n____________________________________________________________________________________\nMoody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.\nhttp://sims.yahoo.com/ " } ] } ] }