{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4857", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4857, "subject": "More Castleview (Spoilers)", "messages": 7, "voices": 5, "first": "2007-06-19T16:55:56+00:00", "last": "2007-06-20T08:20:16+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<44fb53d10706190955p22462c92scf93a7f407f4b3ec@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-19T16:55:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) More Castleview (Spoilers)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi,\n\nI just finished Castleview last night for the first time, and though I know\nthere's been a lot said on this particular book recently, I hope I've got\nsomething to add to the conversation. (Note: In addition to Castleview\nspoilers, there's a spoiler for The Wizard Knight).\n\n1.There seems to be a lot of discussion about whether Wrangler / Arthur\nDunstan or Will Shields is the \"real\" Arthur; this got me thinking about\njust how many characters in Castleview seem to represent either part of an\nArthurian figure or several Arthurian figures.\n\na. Viviane Morgan seems to be the Lady of the Lake, Morgan le Fay, Morgause\n(in Malory I believe it's Morgause, not Morgan, who sleeps with Arthur), and\nVivian / Nimue, the enchantress who seals Merlin under a hill or tree.\n\nb. Dr. von Madadh kills Shields at the end of the novel, suggesting an\naffinity with Mordred, but throughout much of the novel he seems to be a\nMerlin-figure; extremely knowledgeable constantly vanishing and reappearing\n(plus, he has a beard, though I think that's pushing it).The comment at the\nend of the book that he was \"the best of them\" also seems suggestive to me.\nEarlier in the novel, Fee tells us that God dislikes his group, of which we\nknow the Doctor is a part. In those stories, then, Merlin would be the best\nof an evil brood. Fee's comment suggested devils to me, and in some stories,\nMerlin is in fact the devil's son. The fact that the doctor's first name is\n\"Rex\" suggests a connection with Mordred to me, as Mordred surely wanted to\nbe the king (I believe he's even crowned in some versions of the Arthurian\nlegend?). Anyone know the etymology of \"Madadh?\"\n\n2. I wonder if there's a Jack Vance influence to this story? Vance had\npublished at least a few of his Lyonesse books before Wolfe published\nCastleview, and I wonder if Wolfe's references to Lyonesse in the text\nconstituted another one of his homages to Vance.\n\n3. Some of the previous posts on the ending of Castleview suggest that\nExcalibur's scabbard will be useless to Will because it only protects\nagainst blood loss. I've always taken the epigraph a little less literally;\nI tend to think the scabbard would still have healing powers; otherwise why\nwould it be on the boat to Avalon? I actually took that piece of the ending\nas a bit of lupine brilliance; it suggests how Arthur / Will might somehow\nsurvive AND it ties up a loose end of the Arthurian story, and in fact\ncreates a very nice \"circle\" to the myth (Fairly early in Malory, Morgan le\nFay steals the scabbard from Arthur, after that, we never hear of it again).\nI thought that the scabbard's presence in the boat was one of the most\nbeautiful of Wolfe's inventions.\n\n4. What are we to make of Excalibur's resemblance to a cross (Mercedes at\nfirst thinks it's a jeweled cross)? How does that fit in with the pagan\naspects of the ending? Furthermore, upon what leather-bound book is the tip\nof the sword resting? Malory? The Bible? The missing diary of the Wrangler's\nancestor?\n\n5. Also about the ending: Wolfe really seems to like the legend of the Green\nMan or Green Knight; in The Wizard Knight Able tells us that he WAS the\nGreen Knight who Gawain decapitated. Maybe Wolfe is trying to take an\nessentially pagan symbol and Christianize it, as it is his wont to do? The\nGreen Man could perhaps be read as a Christ figure, though so presumably\ncould the king who slays him, as he too will die and rise again. A little\nearlier in the text, Phyllis Sun sees Odin leading the Wild Hunt down the\nstreets of Castleview; the narrator takes pains to describe his missing eye,\nwhich, if I recall correctly, he gave up so that he could give knowledge to\nhumanity; a Christian take on Odin seems like something Wolfe would enjoy.\n\nAny thoughts?\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-19T18:46:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) More Castleview (Spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10706190955p22462c92scf93a7f407f4b3ec@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/19/07, Matthew Keeley wrote:\n1.There seems to be a lot of discussion about whether Wrangler / Arthur\nDunstan or Will Shields is the \"real\" Arthur; this got me thinking about\njust how many characters in Castleview seem to represent either part of an\nArthurian figure or several Arthurian figures." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You may have seen this in the archives, but one of the ideas in the\nbook (I believe this is straight from Wolfe), is that the gene pool in\nArthur's time was so small and there's been enough generations of\nmixing so that today, almost anyone with European ancestors is a\ndescendant of Arthur. So while the faerie folk seem be looking for the\n\"true\" descendant of Arthur (it's not clear whether they realize this\nor not), in fact, everyone human in the story is equally a true\ndescendant of Arthur. And so several of the characters end up acting\nout various pieces of that role.\n\nRostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10706191218t2feae8e2v4f2fe9e9ebe60a0e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-19T19:18:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) More Castleview (Spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hadn't seen that in the archives, as the only stuff I've read on\nCastleview in the archives is the stuff from last month, but it does make\nsense. I believe there's even a comment somewhere about there being many\npeople \"of the king's blood.\" Thanks for the clarification.\n\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/19/07, Michael Straight wrote:\n\nOn 6/19/07, Matthew Keeley wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "1.There seems to be a lot of discussion about whether Wrangler / Arthur\nDunstan or Will Shields is the \"real\" Arthur; this got me thinking about\njust how many characters in Castleview seem to represent either part of\nan\nArthurian figure or several Arthurian figures." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You may have seen this in the archives, but one of the ideas in the\nbook (I believe this is straight from Wolfe), is that the gene pool in\nArthur's time was so small and there's been enough generations of\nmixing so that today, almost anyone with European ancestors is a\ndescendant of Arthur. So while the faerie folk seem be looking for the\n\"true\" descendant of Arthur (it's not clear whether they realize this\nor not), in fact, everyone human in the story is equally a true\ndescendant of Arthur. And so several of the characters end up acting\nout various pieces of that role.\n\nRostrum\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370706191228k76339db9taf78ee1e4638ad3e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-19T19:28:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) More Castleview (Spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10706190955p22462c92scf93a7f407f4b3ec@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/19/07, Matthew Keeley wrote:\n4. What are we to make of Excalibur's resemblance to a cross (Mercedes at\nfirst thinks it's a jeweled cross)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The guard of a sword is often shaped like that, and knights (at least in\nlegends) would often stab the sword into the ground to get a cross to\npray by." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "5. Also about the ending: Wolfe really seems to like the legend of the Green\nMan or Green Knight; in The Wizard Knight Able tells us that he WAS the\nGreen Knight who Gawain decapitated. Maybe Wolfe is trying to take an\nessentially pagan symbol and Christianize it, as it is his wont to do? The\nGreen Man could perhaps be read as a Christ figure, though so presumably\ncould the king who slays him, as he too will die and rise again. A little\nearlier in the text, Phyllis Sun sees Odin leading the Wild Hunt down the\nstreets of Castleview; the narrator takes pains to describe his missing eye,\nwhich, if I recall correctly, he gave up so that he could give knowledge to\nhumanity; a Christian take on Odin seems like something Wolfe would enjoy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know much about the Green Man, but Odin gives his eye to Mimir\nin payment for wisdom, not so he can give his wisdom away. He is looking\nfor a way to avert Ragnarok." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joel Sieh", "address": "joel.sieh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-19T20:27:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) More Castleview (Spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370706191228k76339db9taf78ee1e4638ad3e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know much about the Green Man, but Odin gives his eye to Mimir\nin payment for wisdom, not so he can give his wisdom away. He is looking\nfor a way to avert Ragnarok.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ooh! Echoes of Silk giving his eye to Pig. In fact, that seems like a very\ngood match.\n\n--Joel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10706191345h4d1cbe9ufdc830fd1f442d1e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-19T20:45:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) More Castleview (Spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting thought, and I think right. I'd point out that Odin is\nassociated with ravens, which, if not exactly night choughs, are pretty\nclose. Apparently Odin's ravens talk to him..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From all-knowing Wikipedia:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugin_and_Munin\n\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/19/07, Joel Sieh wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't know much about the Green Man, but Odin gives his eye to Mimir\nin payment for wisdom, not so he can give his wisdom away. He is looking\n\nfor a way to avert Ragnarok.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ooh! Echoes of Silk giving his eye to Pig. In fact, that seems like a\nvery good match.\n\n--Joel\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20070620081858.684101BB61@che.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-06-20T08:20:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) More Castleview (Spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10706190955p22462c92scf93a7f407f4b3ec@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 17:55 19/06/2007, you wrote:\nAnyone know the etymology of \"Madadh?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Madadh\" is Gaelic for \"dog\". So Rex von Madadh ~= king of the dogs.\n\nVon Madadh must in some sense embody the spirit of Sally's dead dog \nRexy, or is a fay posing as it. Rexy was run over the previous year, \nbut reappears during the night. When Sally calls for Rexy, von Madadh \nappears at the door, with muddy feet, and hands her a card the colour \nof bone. He claims to work for the Daoine Institute -- the daoine \nsidhe are the good fairies in Celtic myth.\n\nOn another note, von Madadh's beard is described as red-gold, and a \nfox in Gaelic is just called \"madadh ruadh\", \"red dog\" -- shades of \nthe foxy Dr Talos?\n\nMo" } ] } ] }