Subject: (urth) More Castleview (Spoilers)

From: Matthew Keeley <matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 16:55:56 +0000

Hi,

I just finished Castleview last night for the first time, and though I know
there's been a lot said on this particular book recently, I hope I've got
something to add to the conversation. (Note: In addition to Castleview
spoilers, there's a spoiler for The Wizard Knight).

1.There seems to be a lot of discussion about whether Wrangler / Arthur
Dunstan or Will Shields is the "real" Arthur; this got me thinking about
just how many characters in Castleview seem to represent either part of an
Arthurian figure or several Arthurian figures.

a. Viviane Morgan seems to be the Lady of the Lake, Morgan le Fay, Morgause
(in Malory I believe it's Morgause, not Morgan, who sleeps with Arthur), and
Vivian / Nimue, the enchantress who seals Merlin under a hill or tree.

b. Dr. von Madadh kills Shields at the end of the novel, suggesting an
affinity with Mordred, but throughout much of the novel he seems to be a
Merlin-figure; extremely knowledgeable constantly vanishing and reappearing
(plus, he has a beard, though I think that's pushing it).The comment at the
end of the book that he was "the best of them" also seems suggestive to me.
Earlier in the novel, Fee tells us that God dislikes his group, of which we
know the Doctor is a part. In those stories, then, Merlin would be the best
of an evil brood. Fee's comment suggested devils to me, and in some stories,
Merlin is in fact the devil's son. The fact that the doctor's first name is
"Rex" suggests a connection with Mordred to me, as Mordred surely wanted to
be the king (I believe he's even crowned in some versions of the Arthurian
legend?). Anyone know the etymology of "Madadh?"

2. I wonder if there's a Jack Vance influence to this story? Vance had
published at least a few of his Lyonesse books before Wolfe published
Castleview, and I wonder if Wolfe's references to Lyonesse in the text
constituted another one of his homages to Vance.

3. Some of the previous posts on the ending of Castleview suggest that
Excalibur's scabbard will be useless to Will because it only protects
against blood loss. I've always taken the epigraph a little less literally;
I tend to think the scabbard would still have healing powers; otherwise why
would it be on the boat to Avalon? I actually took that piece of the ending
as a bit of lupine brilliance; it suggests how Arthur / Will might somehow
survive AND it ties up a loose end of the Arthurian story, and in fact
creates a very nice "circle" to the myth (Fairly early in Malory, Morgan le
Fay steals the scabbard from Arthur, after that, we never hear of it again).
I thought that the scabbard's presence in the boat was one of the most
beautiful of Wolfe's inventions.

4. What are we to make of Excalibur's resemblance to a cross (Mercedes at
first thinks it's a jeweled cross)? How does that fit in with the pagan
aspects of the ending? Furthermore, upon what leather-bound book is the tip
of the sword resting? Malory? The Bible? The missing diary of the Wrangler's
ancestor?

5. Also about the ending: Wolfe really seems to like the legend of the Green
Man or Green Knight; in The Wizard Knight Able tells us that he WAS the
Green Knight who Gawain decapitated. Maybe Wolfe is trying to take an
essentially pagan symbol and Christianize it, as it is his wont to do? The
Green Man could perhaps be read as a Christ figure, though so presumably
could the king who slays him, as he too will die and rise again. A little
earlier in the text, Phyllis Sun sees Odin leading the Wild Hunt down the
streets of Castleview; the narrator takes pains to describe his missing eye,
which, if I recall correctly, he gave up so that he could give knowledge to
humanity; a Christian take on Odin seems like something Wolfe would enjoy.

Any thoughts?

-Matt
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From: Michael Straight <mfstraight at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 18:46:58 +0000

> Arthurian figure or several Arthurian figures.

You may have seen this in the archives, but one of the ideas in the
book (I believe this is straight from Wolfe), is that the gene pool in
Arthur's time was so small and there's been enough generations of
mixing so that today, almost anyone with European ancestors is a
descendant of Arthur. So while the faerie folk seem be looking for the
"true" descendant of Arthur (it's not clear whether they realize this
or not), in fact, everyone human in the story is equally a true
descendant of Arthur.  And so several of the characters end up acting
out various pieces of that role.

Rostrum

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From: Matthew Keeley <matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:18:58 +0000

I hadn't seen that in the archives, as the only stuff I've read on
Castleview in the archives is the stuff from last month, but it does make
sense. I believe there's even a comment somewhere about there being many
people "of the king's blood." Thanks for the clarification.

-Matt

On 6/19/07, Michael Straight <mfstraight at gmail.com> wrote:
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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:28:49 +0000

On 6/19/07, Matthew Keeley <matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com> wrote:

> first thinks it's a jeweled cross)?

The guard of a sword is often shaped like that, and knights (at least in
legends) would often stab the sword into the ground to get a cross to
pray by.

> humanity; a Christian take on Odin seems like something Wolfe would enjoy.

I don't know much about the Green Man, but Odin gives his eye to Mimir
in payment for wisdom, not so he can give his wisdom away. He is looking
for a way to avert Ragnarok.

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant
-----
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer
http://www.danehyoakes.com
Soon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,
inexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire
salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards
reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful.

---

From: Joel Sieh <joel.sieh at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 20:27:15 +0000

> for a way to avert Ragnarok.

Ooh!  Echoes of Silk giving his eye to Pig.  In fact, that seems like a very
good match.

--Joel
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From: Matthew Keeley <matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 20:45:07 +0000

Interesting thought, and I think right. I'd point out that Odin is
associated with ravens, which, if not exactly night choughs, are pretty
close. Apparently Odin's ravens talk to him...

>>From all-knowing Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugin_and_Munin

-Matt

On 6/19/07, Joel Sieh <joel.sieh at gmail.com> wrote:
> Ooh!  Echoes of Silk giving his eye to Pig.  In fact, that seems like a
> very good match.
>
> --Joel
>
>
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From: Mo Holkar / UKG <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:20:16 +0000

At 17:55 19/06/2007, you wrote:
>Anyone know the etymology of "Madadh?"

"Madadh" is Gaelic for "dog". So Rex von Madadh ~= king of the dogs.

Von Madadh must in some sense embody the spirit of Sally's dead dog 
Rexy, or is a fay posing as it. Rexy was run over the previous year, 
but reappears during the night. When Sally calls for Rexy, von Madadh 
appears at the door, with muddy feet, and hands her a card the colour 
of bone. He claims to work for the Daoine Institute -- the daoine 
sidhe are the good fairies in Celtic myth.

On another note, von Madadh's beard is described as red-gold, and a 
fox in Gaelic is just called "madadh ruadh", "red dog" -- shades of 
the foxy Dr Talos?

Mo