{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4858", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4858, "subject": "The problem of Cthulhu", "messages": 57, "voices": 20, "first": "2007-06-19T20:11:24+00:00", "last": "2007-06-22T11:32:19+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20070619201124.GA28784@localhost>", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-19T20:11:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<135522.2581.qm@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 0, don doggett scribbled:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I promise that this has to do with Wolfe. Honest. I\nshould be doing other things, but this has been\naggravating my brain, so forgive me if it rambles.\n\nI dig Lovecraft. I abso-frickin love the mythos and I\nenjoy reading what other writers do with it, but so\noften they fail miserably. This is ironic because HP\nLovecraft was not a great stylist at all. That said,\neven Borges wrote that his own attempt at writing a\nLovecraftian story was inferior to the real thing. So\n. . . Lovecraft was a lousy writer, but he had a\nfantastic idea and he understood it completely. What\nmakes the Great Old Ones so terrifying is that they\nare completely alien, unknowable, invincible, and\nmalevolent. The only reason that they haven't wiped\nus out is that they are prevented by other equally\nunknowable forces who, while not actively malevolent,\nregard us as nothing particularly special. We are\nalone, unloved, helpless, and our only salvation is\nthat we are by and large disregarded. That's scary\nstuff.\n Enter August Derleth, who took over Lovecraft's\nlegacy. All of a sudden the Great Old Ones are\nelementals of some sort. There's still some good stuff\nin Derleth; the Necronomicon, weird disappearances,\nmadness, and a damned entertaining love story between\ntwo of the frog people that serve Cthulhu, but\nsuddenly the forces of evil are knowable. We can\ncontain them in our head and they just aren't as\nprimally fear inducing.\n Recently, I've been reading Brian Lumley's Titus\nCrow series, which directly involves the Cthulhu\nmythos. Not good. Not good at all. Lumley's a better\nwriter than Lovecraft, better than Derleth too, but\nnot only are the Cthulhu deities knowable, they have\nsupervillian motivations. And not just that, they can\nbe fought, with technology apparently. Cthulhu is now\nessentially a giant alien psychic squid. Lumley's\nLovecraft fails for me for the same reason the various\nversions of the Necronomicon fail. They explain away\nall the mystery, and thus all the horror.\n Now, some writer's get it right. Neil Gaiman's A\nStudy in Emerald is brilliant. It involves Sherlock\nHolmes, the Great Old Ones and a twist that is just\nincredible. And it's creepy as hell.\nAnd Wolfe. While they're not technically the Great Old\nOnes, Erebus, Abaia, Scylla, and the Mother, are all\nobvious analogs. Their motivations are largely\nunknowable, their nature is unknown, and for that\nreason they are majestic and terrifying. Wolfe\nunderstands Lovecraft, and it leads to some pretty\ncreepy scenes throughout the BoTNS and several in the\nShort Sun books as well. I think no one will ever\ntruly be able to explain Erebus and the rest, because\nthey are meant to be unexplainable. They simply are.\nBtw, has Wolfe ever written a straight up Lovecraftian\ntale?\n\nthanks for your time\nDon" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the same vein, one of the few writers I've found who does Lovecraftiana well is strangely enough, Charles Stross.. His blend of geeky humor, Sci-fi, and the Cthulhu mythos somehow works out." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nSAO Reno Compsec JICS Computer Terrorism Firewalls Secure Internet Connections RSP" } ] }, { "message_id": "<135522.2581.qm@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-19T20:38:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I promise that this has to do with Wolfe. Honest. I\nshould be doing other things, but this has been\naggravating my brain, so forgive me if it rambles.\n\nI dig Lovecraft. I abso-frickin love the mythos and I\nenjoy reading what other writers do with it, but so\noften they fail miserably. This is ironic because HP\nLovecraft was not a great stylist at all. That said,\neven Borges wrote that his own attempt at writing a\nLovecraftian story was inferior to the real thing. So\n. . . Lovecraft was a lousy writer, but he had a\nfantastic idea and he understood it completely. What\nmakes the Great Old Ones so terrifying is that they\nare completely alien, unknowable, invincible, and\nmalevolent. The only reason that they haven't wiped\nus out is that they are prevented by other equally\nunknowable forces who, while not actively malevolent,\nregard us as nothing particularly special. We are\nalone, unloved, helpless, and our only salvation is\nthat we are by and large disregarded. That's scary\nstuff.\n Enter August Derleth, who took over Lovecraft's\nlegacy. All of a sudden the Great Old Ones are\nelementals of some sort. There's still some good stuff\nin Derleth; the Necronomicon, weird disappearances,\nmadness, and a damned entertaining love story between\ntwo of the frog people that serve Cthulhu, but\nsuddenly the forces of evil are knowable. We can\ncontain them in our head and they just aren't as\nprimally fear inducing.\n Recently, I've been reading Brian Lumley's Titus\nCrow series, which directly involves the Cthulhu\nmythos. Not good. Not good at all. Lumley's a better\nwriter than Lovecraft, better than Derleth too, but\nnot only are the Cthulhu deities knowable, they have\nsupervillian motivations. And not just that, they can\nbe fought, with technology apparently. Cthulhu is now\nessentially a giant alien psychic squid. Lumley's\nLovecraft fails for me for the same reason the various\nversions of the Necronomicon fail. They explain away\nall the mystery, and thus all the horror.\n Now, some writer's get it right. Neil Gaiman's A\nStudy in Emerald is brilliant. It involves Sherlock\nHolmes, the Great Old Ones and a twist that is just\nincredible. And it's creepy as hell.\nAnd Wolfe. While they're not technically the Great Old\nOnes, Erebus, Abaia, Scylla, and the Mother, are all\nobvious analogs. Their motivations are largely\nunknowable, their nature is unknown, and for that\nreason they are majestic and terrifying. Wolfe\nunderstands Lovecraft, and it leads to some pretty\ncreepy scenes throughout the BoTNS and several in the\nShort Sun books as well. I think no one will ever\ntruly be able to explain Erebus and the rest, because\nthey are meant to be unexplainable. They simply are.\nBtw, has Wolfe ever written a straight up Lovecraftian\ntale?\n\nthanks for your time\nDon\n\nThe Evangelists: a Lesser Apocrypha http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=178109961\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "JBarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-06-19T20:50:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<135522.2581.qm@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 6/19/2007 1:40:21 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, \nkingwukong at yahoo.com writes:\n\nBtw, has Wolfe ever written a straight up Lovecraftian\ntale?\n\n\n\n\"Lord of the Land\" in _Starwater Strains_ is a deliberately Lovecraftian \ntale, which is also published in _Cthulhu 2000_ and reprinted in_Lovecraft's \nLegacy_.\n \nJohn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10706191350q38898a78y4fd9e189db087030@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-19T20:50:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<135522.2581.qm@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I haven't read \"A Study in Emerald,\" though as a fan of both Holmes and\nLovecraft, I really should. Everyone says it's incredible. I have, however,\nread Gaiman's comic Cthulhu autobiography, which I think is available\nsomewhere on his website. It's a minor work, certainly, but I remember\nlaughing out loud when I read it.\n\nhttp://www.neilgaiman.com/exclusive/shortstories/chulthhustory\n\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/19/07, don doggett wrote:\n\n\n Now, some writer's get it right. Neil Gaiman's A\nStudy in Emerald is brilliant. It involves Sherlock\nHolmes, the Great Old Ones and a twist that is just\nincredible. And it's creepy as hell.\nAnd Wolfe. While they're not technically the Great Old\nOnes, Erebus, Abaia, Scylla, and the Mother, are all\nobvious analogs. Their motivations are largely\nunknowable, their nature is unknown, and for that\nreason they are majestic and terrifying. Wolfe\nunderstands Lovecraft, and it leads to some pretty\ncreepy scenes throughout the BoTNS and several in the\nShort Sun books as well. I think no one will ever\ntruly be able to explain Erebus and the rest, because\nthey are meant to be unexplainable. They simply are.\nBtw, has Wolfe ever written a straight up Lovecraftian\ntale?\n\nthanks for your time\nDon\n\nThe Evangelists: a Lesser\nApocrypha\nhttp://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=178109961\n\n\n\n\n____________________________________________________________________________________\nFinding fabulous fares is fun.\nLet Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and\nhotel bargains.\nhttp://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<269696.34677.qm@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-19T21:09:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10706191350q38898a78y4fd9e189db087030@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Matthew Keeley wrote:\nI haven't read \"A Study in Emerald,\" though as a fan\nof both Holmes and\nLovecraft, I really should. Everyone says it's\nincredible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a masterpiece of short fiction. Gaiman's all over\nthe place in terms of quality, but this is a prime\nexample of why he's so highly regarded. His other\nCthulhu tale is Only the End of the World Again, which\nuses Larry Talbot, the wolfman, and is also a\ncontinuation of, and tribute to, Harlan Ellison's\nAdrift Just Off the Islets of Langerhans. Oh yeah, and\nShoggoth's Old Peculiar, which is pretty funny. Both\nof these are in Smoke and Mirrors.\n\nDon\n\n\n\n\n \n\nThe Evangelists: a Lesser Apocrypha http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=178109961\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10706191423y3da30b1aha368e00b18c04262@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-19T21:23:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<269696.34677.qm@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don,\n\nThanks for the advice. I've been meaning to read some Gaiman this summer,\nand you've given me a good idea of where to start. I have a copy of Smoke\nand Mirrors at home; I might even be able to get to those stories tonight.\nThanks,\n\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/19/07, don doggett wrote:\n\n\n--- Matthew Keeley wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I haven't read \"A Study in Emerald,\" though as a fan\nof both Holmes and\nLovecraft, I really should. Everyone says it's\nincredible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's a masterpiece of short fiction. Gaiman's all over\nthe place in terms of quality, but this is a prime\nexample of why he's so highly regarded. His other\nCthulhu tale is Only the End of the World Again, which\nuses Larry Talbot, the wolfman, and is also a\ncontinuation of, and tribute to, Harlan Ellison's\nAdrift Just Off the Islets of Langerhans. Oh yeah, and\nShoggoth's Old Peculiar, which is pretty funny. Both\nof these are in Smoke and Mirrors.\n\nDon\n\n\n\n\n\n\nThe Evangelists: a Lesser\nApocrypha\nhttp://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=178109961\n\n\n\n____________________________________________________________________________________Ready\nfor the edge of your seat?\nCheck out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.\nhttp://tv.yahoo.com/\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<741978.42994.qm@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-19T21:34:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10706191350q38898a78y4fd9e189db087030@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- Matthew Keeley wrote:\n I have, however," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "read Gaiman's comic Cthulhu autobiography, which I\nthink is available\nsomewhere on his website. It's a minor work,\ncertainly, but I remember\nlaughing out loud when I read it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://www.neilgaiman.com/exclusive/shortstories/chulthhustory\n\nThat was really funny stuff. Thanks for the link.\n\nDon\n\nThe Evangelists: a Lesser Apocrypha http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=178109961" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-06-19T23:05:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<135522.2581.qm@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "don doggett writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " What\nmakes the Great Old Ones so terrifying is that they\nare completely alien, unknowable, invincible, and\nmalevolent. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nThe GOO are simply a modern analog of the Greek Titans or the Norse Jotuns \n\nOr to put it another way, these pre-human forces of Chaos would in their day \nhave been thought of much as we today think of the Great Old Ones - horrors \nwith nothing quaint or anachronistic in their makeup. \n\n\n(((\nI'm an Odinist, and I continually have to remind myself and my \nco-religionists that archaism is not correct. \n\nVikings, for example, (to pick a set of folk frequently and wrongly thought \nof as typifying Odinism), should be thought of as pirates using the highest \ntech weapons and transport; not quaint guys in helmets. Because that is \nwhat they were. \n\nThink helecopter gunships and privately owned tanks not wooden ships.\n))) \n\n \n\nWolfe repeatedly follows his masters Lewis and Tolkien in Christianising \npagan myth in multiple levels of narrative analogy. \n\nHis fantasies and science fictions have characters who can represent Odin or \nAchilles in one layer, and Christ in a higher layer (Silk > Odin > is an \nobvious example) \n\n\nErebus etc thus represent the classical Titans / Jotuns / GOO within the \nframe of the urth books. They are a theme, not simply from Lovecraft, but \nalso from pagan religion/myth/cosmology \n\n\nMaybe a Christian would tell me what the \"Christian layer\" analog is. The \nDevil, I suppose: but that doesn't seem quite right. \n\n \n\n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "<11530.67.142.130.61.1182296319.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-06-19T23:38:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The GOO are simply a modern analog of the Greek Titans or the Norse Jotuns" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure if this is strictly accurate. Also, the titans and the\njotunsn are not analagous. The titans are more analagous with the Vanir.\nThe jotuns are, I can't think of a Greek equivalent, but the Indian\nequivalent would be the Rakshasas probably.\n\nThe Aesir and the Vanir are two interrelated clans of gods. There was a\nwar in the past, and a peace treaty (this tradition of a war in the deep\npast is found all over).\n\nIt gets a little complicated, because the aesir and the vanir are all\nrelated to the jotuns, in fact they are racially identical, they split off\nat some time in the past.\n\n\nI think that all of this is related to various species of humans who were\naround in the deep past. There were (especially) surviving populations of\nneanderthals and such in Scandanavia when the aryan types got there.\n\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or to put it another way, these pre-human forces of Chaos would in their\nday\nhave been thought of much as we today think of the Great Old Ones -\nhorrors\nwith nothing quaint or anachronistic in their makeup.\n\n\n(((\nI'm an Odinist, and I continually have to remind myself and my\nco-religionists that archaism is not correct.\n\nVikings, for example, (to pick a set of folk frequently and wrongly\nthought\nof as typifying Odinism), should be thought of as pirates using the\nhighest\ntech weapons and transport; not quaint guys in helmets. Because that is\nwhat they were.\n\nThink helecopter gunships and privately owned tanks not wooden ships.\n)))\n\n\n\nWolfe repeatedly follows his masters Lewis and Tolkien in Christianising\npagan myth in multiple levels of narrative analogy.\n\nHis fantasies and science fictions have characters who can represent Odin\nor\nAchilles in one layer, and Christ in a higher layer (Silk > Odin > is an\nobvious example)\n\n\nErebus etc thus represent the classical Titans / Jotuns / GOO within the\nframe of the urth books. They are a theme, not simply from Lovecraft,\nbut\nalso from pagan religion/myth/cosmology\n\n\nMaybe a Christian would tell me what the \"Christian layer\" analog is. The\nDevil, I suppose: but that doesn't seem quite right.\n\n\n\n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk\n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<744134.78677.qm@web32414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-20T00:40:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Andy Robertson wrote:\n\nWolfe repeatedly follows his masters Lewis and\nTolkien in Christianising \npagan myth in multiple levels of narrative analogy. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but he also incorporates various SF tropes,\nespecially pulpy ones, like Burroughs, Lovecraft, and\nHoward. Abaia is ridiculously Cthulhuesque in that he\ninvades dreams, lives at the bottom of the ocean,\nworks solely through minions, and will one day \"awake\"\nto dominate the world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Erebus etc thus represent the classical Titans /\nJotuns / GOO within the \nframe of the urth books. They are a theme, not\nsimply from Lovecraft, but \nalso from pagan religion/myth/cosmology " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. But I was only speaking of the Lovecraftian\naspect, which I believe is strongly there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe a Christian would tell me what the \"Christian\nlayer\" analog is. The \nDevil, I suppose: but that doesn't seem quite right." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Christian layer is the same as the pagan. Several\nof the Christian apologists of late antiquity, rather\nthan deny the existence of such beings relegated them\nto the position of demons who men worshipped in error.\nAlso many Roman Christians incorporated rituals\nassociated with the worship of Horus, with Apollo, and\nwith Mithras. True paganism (meaning of the Greek and\nRoman world) and Catholic Christianity are\nindistinguishable in a lot of strange and interesting\nways, especially holidays and rituals. Imo of course\n\nDon\n\nThe Evangelists: a Lesser Apocrypha http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=178109961\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<467889C4.7050907@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-06-20T01:58:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<11530.67.142.130.61.1182296319.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI think that all of this is related to various species of humans who were\naround in the deep past. There were (especially) surviving populations of\nneanderthals and such in Scandanavia when the aryan types got there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*snicker* This is literally the premise of _The Thirteenth \nWarrior_/_Eaters of the Dead_." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3509.67.142.130.41.1182309725.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-06-20T03:22:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<467889C4.7050907@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think that all of this is related to various species of humans who\nwere around in the deep past. There were (especially) surviving\npopulations\nof neanderthals and such in Scandanavia when the aryan types got there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*snicker* This is literally the premise of _The Thirteenth\nWarrior_/_Eaters of the Dead_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes it is.\n\nWhy should that be amusing? The idea is not original with me or with\nMichael Crichton (that book was by Michael Crichton, I believe).\n\nWhat does Snorre Sturluson mean when he says that such and such a family\nwas 'half-troll'? I'd say that the description of Egil Skallagrimson's\nskeletal remains (at the very end if \"Egil's Saga\") is suggestive to say\nthe least.\n\nThere's lots of other stuff.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<336153.31193.qm@web32401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-20T06:22:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<3509.67.142.130.41.1182309725.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nin reply to:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*snicker* This is literally the premise of _The\nThirteenth\nWarrior_/_Eaters of the Dead_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes it is.\n\nWhy should that be amusing? The idea is not original\nwith me or with\nMichael Crichton (that book was by Michael Crichton,\nI believe)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was by Michael Crichton and it's a great historical\nnovel/ forgery. If anyone else had written it, or if\nhe had used a pseudonym it would be much more highly\npraised than it is.\nAs for deep history, I have no informed opinion on it,\nother than it makes for interesting historical fiction\n(meaning the genre)\n\nDon\n\nThe Evangelists: a Lesser Apocrypha http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=178109961\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-06-20T07:31:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<11530.67.142.130.61.1182296319.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "brunians at brunians.org writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The GOO are simply a modern analog of the Greek Titans or the Norse Jotuns" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure if this is strictly accurate. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nThe actual literary progression in HPL's writing was 1) pseudo-Dunsanaica, \nwith \"the little gods of Earth\" a close analog of the neo-greek Gods of \nPegana 2) intrusion in the neo-Dunsanies of the Other gods or Outer Gods as \npowerful external enemies of these gods 3) equation of these Outer gods \nwith the GOO, Cthulhu etc. \n\nSo I think the linkage is pretty firm. \n\n \n\n\nAlso, the titans and the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "jotunsn are not analagous. The titans are more analagous with the Vanir.\nThe jotuns are, I can't think of a Greek equivalent," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon maybe. The Titans are supposed to have been the previous generation \nof gods, but as you mention below the norse gods are descended from the \njotuns, where is the difference? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but the Indian\nequivalent would be the Rakshasas probably. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another IE derived mythology " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It gets a little complicated, because the aesir and the vanir are all\nrelated to the jotuns, in fact they are racially identical, they split off\nat some time in the past." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nAnd we all have Deep ONe blood / are the leavings of the Antarctic GOO's \nlaboratories. \n\n\nIt all fits - except that HPL was discarding the archaic elements and \nremythologising things on contemporary lines. Or in a nutshell: \n\n\nLOVECRAFT WAS RIGHT \n\n \n\n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-06-20T07:34:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<744134.78677.qm@web32414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "don doggett writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure. But I was only speaking of the Lovecraftian\naspect, which I believe is strongly there.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well HPL pops up in PEACE, as I recall, (though not named) and bits of the \nfake-but-becoming-real Necronomicon are read, so Wolfe is obviously a fan. \n\n \n\n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Batrinque at aol.com", "address": "batrinque at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-06-20T10:19:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 6/20/2007 2:22:46 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, \nkingwukong at yahoo.com writes:\n\nIt was by Michael Crichton and it's a great historical\nnovel/ forgery. If anyone else had written it, or if\nhe had used a pseudonym it would be much more highly\npraised than it is.\n\n\n\nI agree. It is much the fashion to automatically sneer at Crichton and \ndismiss those novels of his which are actually quite good. \n\nBruce Trinque\nAmston, CT" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Batrinque at aol.com", "address": "batrinque at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-06-20T10:21:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 6/19/2007 11:22:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, \nbrunians at brunians.org writes:\n\nWhat does Snorre Sturluson mean when he says that such and such a family\nwas 'half-troll'?\n\n\n \nAn interesting line of thought ... especially if you connect it with the \nrecent \"Beowulf & Grendel\" movie that was filmed in Iceland. \n\nBruce Trinque\nAmston, CT" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11330.67.142.130.55.1182337398.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-06-20T11:03:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In a message dated 6/19/2007 11:22:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,\nbrunians at brunians.org writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What does Snorre Sturluson mean when he says that such and such a family\nwas 'half-troll'?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An interesting line of thought ... especially if you connect it with the\nrecent \"Beowulf & Grendel\" movie that was filmed in Iceland." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I probably do, if it's about what I guess it's about.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<46791F20.1030306@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-06-20T12:35:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<3509.67.142.130.41.1182309725.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think that all of this is related to various species of humans who\nwere around in the deep past. There were (especially) surviving\npopulations\nof neanderthals and such in Scandanavia when the aryan types got there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*snicker* This is literally the premise of _The Thirteenth\nWarrior_/_Eaters of the Dead_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes it is.\n\nWhy should that be amusing?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because of the dual meaning of Aryan (notional fair-skinned race vs. \nIndo-European root culture). The movie opens with Ibn Faldan, an exiled \nPersian, being sent to Scandanaavia, and there are *still* proto-humans \n there, ages after the blondes have taken up residence." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8614.67.142.130.43.1182345133.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-06-20T13:12:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<46791F20.1030306@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I think that all of this is related to various species of humans who\nwere around in the deep past. There were (especially) surviving\npopulations of neanderthals and such in Scandanavia when the aryan\ntypes got there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "*snicker* This is literally the premise of _The Thirteenth\nWarrior_/_Eaters of the Dead_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes it is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why should that be amusing?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because of the dual meaning of Aryan (notional fair-skinned race vs.\nIndo-European root culture)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You see, the first one never occurs to me. It's based on several mistaken\nnotions.\n\nA good starting point for understanding how strange the material is is\nrealizing that Sanskrit is not like other languages. It is fixed. It is a\nliterary language (though there is and tends to be a community of several\nthousand people who are raised as native speakers), and the when you go to\nlearn it, the very first thing you do is learn to make the 50 or so sounds\nthat are associated with the Sanskrit letters (which can be written, by\nthe way with any arbitrary set of symbols).\n\nThus, the language is not subject to phoneme drift as a natural language\nis. In other words, no one knows how old it is. 19th and 20th century\nscholars used to say it dates back 3500 years or so: the only thing we\nknow about this number is that it is wrong. It could be 5,000 years old,\nit could be 50,000 years old." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " The movie opens with Ibn Faldan, an exiled\nPersian, being sent to Scandanaavia, and there are *still* proto-humans\n there, ages after the blondes have taken up residence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, this is what the sagas say also. I think you will get in trouble\nthinking of neanderthals as proto-humans. They are as human as you if not\nmore so. They were skilled engineers, among other things, and also your\nancestors if you are even part-European.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<556805.74710.qm@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-20T15:41:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<8614.67.142.130.43.1182345133.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n I think you" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "will get in trouble\nthinking of neanderthals as proto-humans. They are\nas human as you if not\nmore so. They were skilled engineers, among other\nthings, and also your\nancestors if you are even part-European." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that much of this is still up for debate,\nespecially the interbreeding part, but the fact that\nthere is a debate still validates your argument as\ntenable, and elevates it beyond snickering at, imo. I\nmean, thirty years ago, we used to think the dinosaurs\ndied out completely (other than crocodiles and sharks\nand such) Now, it's generally accepted that their\ndescendants are flying outside our window every day.\nBut don't worry, we'll kill 'em eventually.\n\nDon\n\nThe Evangelists: a Lesser Apocrypha http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=178109961\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-20T19:31:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<744134.78677.qm@web32414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/19/07, don doggett wrote:\nTrue paganism (meaning of the Greek and\nRoman world) and Catholic Christianity are\nindistinguishable in a lot of strange and interesting\nways, especially holidays and rituals. Imo of course" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "G.K. Chesterton liked to point out that the only modern tradition that\ncould genuinely trace its roots back to Greek and Roman paganism was\nChristianity.\n\nRostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8504.67.142.130.49.1182376150.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-06-20T21:49:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<556805.74710.qm@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I think you will get in trouble thinking of neanderthals as\nproto-humans. They are as human as you if not more so. They\nwere skilled engineers, among other things, and also your\nancestors if you are even part-European." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that much of this is still up for debate," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some of us are on one side or another of that debate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "especially the interbreeding part," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Look around you, especially if you have Polynesian, Norwegian or\nAustralian aboriginal neighbors (that's 'European' in a very broad sense:\neveryone here knows that native Australians are born brown-haired or even\nblonde)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " but the fact that\nthere is a debate still validates your argument as\ntenable, and elevates it beyond snickering at, imo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I\nmean, thirty years ago, we used to think the dinosaurs\ndied out completely (other than crocodiles and sharks\nand such) Now, it's generally accepted that their\ndescendants are flying outside our window every day.\nBut don't worry, we'll kill 'em eventually." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The black ones are smart.\n\nThey'll be here after we're gone.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4679CE4F.7040100@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-06-21T01:03:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<8614.67.142.130.43.1182345133.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nYes, this is what the sagas say also. I think you will get in trouble\nthinking of neanderthals as proto-humans. They are as human as you if not\nmore so. They were skilled engineers, among other things, and also your\nancestors if you are even part-European." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the neandethals were human, why is there a distinction made?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-21T01:07:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<4679CE4F.7040100@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi all. Long time lurker, first time poster.\n\nNeanderthals were not \"human,\" in the sense of being homo sapiens. \nThey were another species, human-like, but not human.\n\nHere's a wiki link... sorry, it's the best I could do on short \nnotice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 20, 2007, at 8:03 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, this is what the sagas say also. I think you will get in trouble\nthinking of neanderthals as proto-humans. They are as human as you \nif not\nmore so. They were skilled engineers, among other things, and also \nyour\nancestors if you are even part-European." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the neandethals were human, why is there a distinction made?\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Batrinque at aol.com", "address": "batrinque at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-06-21T01:12:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 6/20/2007 9:07:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, \nlhaygood at gmail.com writes:\n\nNeanderthals were not \"human,\" in the sense of being homo sapiens. \nThey were another species, human-like, but not human.\n\nHere's a wiki link... sorry, it's the best I could do on short \nnotice. _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_ \n(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal) \n\n\n\n\nTo date, no DNA evidence exists of any genetic contribution to presentday \nhumans. \n\nBruce Trinque\nAmston, CT" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1465.67.142.130.38.1182388454.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-06-21T01:14:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hi all. Long time lurker, first time poster." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Neanderthals were not \"human,\" in the sense of being homo sapiens.\nThey were another species, human-like, but not human." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are several opinions floating around about this. Mine happens to be\nin the minority this decade. It's still correct, as everyone reading this\nafter 2050 or so is aware.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<14580.67.142.130.38.1182388503.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-06-21T01:15:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To date, no DNA evidence exists of any genetic contribution to presentday\nhumans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maltese teeth.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Batrinque at aol.com", "address": "batrinque at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-06-21T01:21:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<14580.67.142.130.38.1182388503.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 6/20/2007 9:15:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, \nbrunians at brunians.org writes:\n\nMaltese teeth.\n\n\n\nIs there DNA evidence there? \n\nBruce Trinque\n41?37'52\"N 72?22'29\"W" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14480.67.142.130.38.1182389157.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-06-21T01:25:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<14580.67.142.130.38.1182388503.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To date, no DNA evidence exists of any genetic contribution to\npresentday\nhumans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maltese teeth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I figured I'd expand (though of course everyone knows what I am talking\nabout, here, right?).\n\nSome Neanderthal skulls got funny teeth. Supposedly unique to the seperate\nspecies that didn't interbreed. Except a bunch of Maltese people have\nteeth like this. How'd that happen?\n\nThere's all sorts of bogosity in paleoanthropology. Did you know there are\na bunch of these academic scientists who seriously maintain that human\nbeings didn't have speech before 70,000 years ago or so? They were every\nway identical to us, they just couldn't talk, poor things.\n\nWhere do they get these ideas?\n\nThe species is a million years old and for 990,000 of those years we were\nsort of half-smart animals scraping out a living. Then, all of a sudden,\nten thousand years ago, something happened, and now we're flying in space.\n\nTwo kinds of people who didn't look any different than hottentots and\nswedes hung out around each other for tens of thousands of years, with\ninterbreedable genomes, and none of them had children.\n\nPeople want to believe these kinds of things, they can. I'll pass.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Batrinque at aol.com", "address": "batrinque at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-06-21T01:31:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<14480.67.142.130.38.1182389157.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 6/20/2007 9:26:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, \nbrunians at brunians.org writes:\n\nSome Neanderthal skulls got funny teeth. Supposedly unique to the seperate\nspecies that didn't interbreed. Except a bunch of Maltese people have\nteeth like this. \n\n\nI wonder if there has been any genetic testing of native Maltese to \ndetermine whether there is any interesting DNA floating around. \n \n \nBruce Trinque\n41?37'52\"N 72?22'29\"W" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12103.67.142.130.38.1182389983.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-06-21T01:39:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In a message dated 6/20/2007 9:26:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,\nbrunians at brunians.org writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some Neanderthal skulls got funny teeth. Supposedly unique to the\nseperate species that didn't interbreed. Except a bunch of Maltese\npeople have teeth like this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wonder if there has been any genetic testing of native Maltese to\ndetermine whether there is any interesting DNA floating around." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dunno. The debate is mostly academics swearing at each other and\ndenigrating each other's evidence, as near as I can tell.\n\nI don't engage too much in the debate. I got my ideas, they're not\ncurrently well-accepted, I believe that they will be pretty soon (though\npossibly not within my lifetime).\n\nTo me, the question is basically whether Plato, Snorre Sturluson and the\nMahabharata are more or less reliable than a bunch of twentieth and early\ntwenty-first century theoreticians. That's a no-brainer.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9c6b022b0706201846p6e86ed15nf0401de8b3548b7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Ranjit Bhatnagar", "address": "ranjit at moonmilk.com" }, "date": "2007-06-21T01:46:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<135522.2581.qm@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sorry, but every time I read the subject line \"The problem of\nCthulhu\" I think of the famous song from that classic musical.\n\n How do you solve a problem like Cthulhu?\n How do you catch a shoggoth and pin it down?\n How do you find a word that means Cthulhu?\n A gibbering figment! Ia ia fthagn!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Batrinque at aol.com", "address": "batrinque at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-06-21T01:46:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<9c6b022b0706201846p6e86ed15nf0401de8b3548b7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 6/20/2007 9:40:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, \nbrunians at brunians.org writes:\n\nThe debate is mostly academics swearing at each other and\ndenigrating each other's evidence, as near as I can tell.\n\n\n\nThe problem, of course, with arguing on the basis of skull shape and such is \nthat it is rather too easy for subjectivity to creep in. It would be nice \nto have something firmer in hand. \n\n \nBruce Trinque\nAmston, CT" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14E2ADEB-8BC1-4271-A091-BFCDA872FCC2@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-21T02:21:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<12103.67.142.130.38.1182389983.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 20, 2007, at 8:39 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nTo me, the question is basically whether Plato, Snorre Sturluson \nand the\nMahabharata are more or less reliable than a bunch of twentieth and \nearly\ntwenty-first century theoreticians. That's a no-brainer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I think I may love you." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9501.67.142.130.23.1182392893.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-06-21T02:28:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<14E2ADEB-8BC1-4271-A091-BFCDA872FCC2@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 20, 2007, at 8:39 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To me, the question is basically whether Plato, Snorre Sturluson\nand the Mahabharata are more or less reliable than a bunch of twentieth\nand\nearly twenty-first century theoreticians. That's a no-brainer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I think I may love you." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're sweet. But agape, or philia, please, not eros.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2007-06-21T02:47:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<12103.67.142.130.38.1182389983.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, 20 Jun 2007, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nIn a message dated 6/20/2007 9:26:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,\nbrunians at brunians.org writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Some Neanderthal skulls got funny teeth. Supposedly unique to the\nseperate species that didn't interbreed. Except a bunch of Maltese\npeople have teeth like this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I wonder if there has been any genetic testing of native Maltese to\ndetermine whether there is any interesting DNA floating around." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dunno. The debate is mostly academics swearing at each other and\ndenigrating each other's evidence, as near as I can tell.\n\nI don't engage too much in the debate. I got my ideas, they're not\ncurrently well-accepted, I believe that they will be pretty soon (though\npossibly not within my lifetime).\n\nTo me, the question is basically whether Plato, Snorre Sturluson and the\nMahabharata are more or less reliable than a bunch of twentieth and early\ntwenty-first century theoreticians. That's a no-brainer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The problem is that the scanty mitochondrial DNA evidence says they did \nnot contribute to any modern human populations. It seems not impossible \nto me that they could have interbred. I don't know whether hobbits could \ninterbreed with humans either, even though they may have coexisted more \nrecently than Neandertals.\n\nSlightly in the spirit of the subject line, has anyone else read Jeffrey \nE. Barlough's channelling of HPL and Dickens?\n\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370706202018k7c8790fekf0157f868562a29d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-21T03:18:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<9c6b022b0706201846p6e86ed15nf0401de8b3548b7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/20/07, Ranjit Bhatnagar wrote:\nI'm sorry, but every time I read the subject line \"The problem of\nCthulhu\" I think of the famous song from that classic musical.\n\n How do you solve a problem like Cthulhu?\n How do you catch a shoggoth and pin it down?\n How do you find a word that means Cthulhu?\n A gibbering figment! Ia ia fthagn!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there is \"A Shoggoth on the Roof...\"\n\nhttp://www.yog-sothoth.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=74" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." } ] }, { "message_id": "<7000.67.142.130.42.1182396379.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-06-21T03:26:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 20 Jun 2007, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't engage too much in the debate. I got my ideas, they're not\ncurrently well-accepted, I believe that they will be pretty soon (though\npossibly not within my lifetime)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To me, the question is basically whether Plato, Snorre Sturluson and the\nMahabharata are more or less reliable than a bunch of twentieth and\nearly twenty-first century theoreticians. That's a no-brainer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The problem is that the scanty mitochondrial DNA evidence says they did\nnot contribute to any modern human populations." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remember African Eve? Don't hear too much about her anymore.\n\nThe reason you don't is because after they presented their paper, someone\nwent over their evidence and pointed out that it was messed up: that it is\ntrue that they could trace each sample to their posited African Eve, or\nthey could work the same sample a slightly different way and come up with\nother Eves, both in and out of Africa.\n\nIn other words, I don't have any problem at all with out understanding of\nthe DNA evidence, mitochondrial or otherwise, being incomplete or poorly\nunderstood.\n\nI'll believe we are getting sort of a handle on DNA when someone can\nsplain to me this unfolding trick that you do to get from a fertilized\ncell to a human or a crow or whatever.\n\nWhat I have a problem with is two human populations living side by side ad\nengaging in no fuckery." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " It seems not impossible\nto me that they could have interbred. I don't know whether hobbits could\ninterbreed with humans either, even though they may have coexisted more\nrecently than Neandertals." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My position is that they never did die out but bred in with the dominant\npopulation. My evidence is the literally thousands of Norwegians,\nPolynesians, Australian natives and others who have obvious neanderthal\ncharacteristics, thick bones, browridges etc.\n\nIt wouldn't surprise me if the hobbitses didn't die out either.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-06-21T06:57:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<14480.67.142.130.38.1182389157.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "brunians at brunians.org writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The species is a million years old and for 990,000 of those years we were\nsort of half-smart animals scraping out a living. Then, all of a sudden,\nten thousand years ago, something happened, and now we're flying in space. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nCould be a mutation. \n\nGenetic studies claim to show that genes that control the brain are evolving \nfast, and by fast I mean in historical, not geological, time. \n\nBruce Lahn claims that one gene that first appeared in Europe (by mutation, \nin one person) about 4000 BC has now spread to a quarter of the human race. \n\nIt must do something important. \n\nhttp://chronicle.uchicago.edu/050922/brainevolution.shtml \n\nThat's a startling fact if you like. If true. \n\n \n\nI like your other ideas but don't much credit the interbreeding thing. \n\nOTOH Neanderthals as grendels I can swallow. \n\n\n - hartshorn \n\n \n\n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew at calmeilles.co.uk", "address": "matthew at calmeilles.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-06-21T07:11:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Batrinque at aol.com wrote:\n \nTo date, no DNA evidence exists of any genetic contribution to presentday \nhumans. \nBruce Trinque\nAmston, CT" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://genetics.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pgen.0020105.eor\n\n\n\"Using sequence data from the Environmental Genome Project, we find strong evidence for ancient admixture in both a European and a West African population (p ~ 10^{-7}), with contributions to the modern gene pool of at least 5%. While Neanderthals form an obvious archaic source population candidate in Europe, there is not yet a clear source population candidate in West Africa.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<265956.88271.qm@web32401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-21T07:11:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Andy Robertson wrote:\n\nI like your other ideas but don't much credit the\ninterbreeding thing. \n\nOTOH Neanderthals as grendels I can swallow. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How about this one? \n\n from http://xchar.home.att.net/n2a/medhyp.htm\n\n\"The Neanderthals, I propose, disappeared from Europe\nand Asia for the same reason that the mammoths\ndisappeared: we ate them.\"\n\nI hear they taste like shoggoth.\n\nDon\n\nThe Evangelists: a Lesser Apocrypha http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=178109961" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15984.67.142.130.58.1182410197.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-06-21T07:16:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The species is a million years old and for 990,000 of those years we\nwere sort of half-smart animals scraping out a living. Then, all of a\nsudden,ten thousand years ago, something happened, and now we're flying in\nspace." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Could be a mutation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It could be not true.\n\nBeing as we have all of these stories about previous cycles of\ncivilization and advanced technology, I'm going to go with the latter. You\nhave to do what pleases you.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<5941.67.142.130.36.1182415185.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-06-21T08:39:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "matthew at calmeilles.co.uk writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Batrinque at aol.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To date, no DNA evidence exists of any genetic contribution to\npresentday humans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://genetics.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pgen.0020105.eor" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Using sequence data from the Environmental Genome Project, we find strong\nevidence for ancient admixture in both a European and a West African\npopulation (p ~ 10^{-7}), with contributions to the modern gene pool of at\nleast 5%. While Neanderthals form an obvious archaic source population\ncandidate in Europe, there is not yet a clear source population candidate\nin West Africa.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dude.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Batrinque at aol.com", "address": "batrinque at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-06-21T10:28:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<5941.67.142.130.36.1182415185.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 6/20/2007 11:26:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, \nbrunians at brunians.org writes:\n\nRemember African Eve? Don't hear too much about her anymore.\n\nThe reason you don't is because after they presented their paper, someone\nwent over their evidence and pointed out that it was messed up: that it is\ntrue that they could trace each sample to their posited African Eve, or\nthey could work the same sample a slightly different way and come up with\nother Eves, both in and out of Africa.\n\n\nAnd subsequently someone went over the counterarguement and concluded that \nTHAT analysis was wrong. African Eve is alive and well, and so is a later \nAfrican Adam. Recent African Origin at the moment at least widely accepted as \nbeing the best model for present human ancestry.\n \n \nBruce Trinque\nAmston, CT" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12453.67.142.130.21.1182422677.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-06-21T10:44:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In a message dated 6/20/2007 11:26:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,\nbrunians at brunians.org writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Remember African Eve? Don't hear too much about her anymore." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The reason you don't is because after they presented their paper, someone\nwent over their evidence and pointed out that it was messed up: that it\nis true that they could trace each sample to their posited African Eve,\nor they could work the same sample a slightly different way and come up\nwith other Eves, both in and out of Africa.\n\n\nAnd subsequently someone went over the counterarguement and concluded that\nTHAT analysis was wrong. African Eve is alive and well, and so is a later\nAfrican Adam. Recent African Origin at the moment at least widely\naccepted as being the best model for present human ancestry." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "... by the people who accept it.\n\nThen there's the others, that don't, that figure that group (A) is\nscrewing up somehow again.\n\nAnd here we are.\n\nLike I say: if your theory requires that humans not fuck, your theory is\nwrong.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-06-21T13:02:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<265956.88271.qm@web32401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "don doggett writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How about this one? \n\n from http://xchar.home.att.net/n2a/medhyp.htm \n\n\"The Neanderthals, I propose, disappeared from Europe\nand Asia for the same reason that the mammoths\ndisappeared: we ate them.\" \n\nI hear they taste like shoggoth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nLikely enough. Genocide is the rule in hominid group interactions, after \nall. \n\n\n - hartshorn \n\n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "<368998.35090.qm@web63910.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Recursive Loop", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-21T15:42:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<14480.67.142.130.38.1182389157.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Greetings:\n\n\"The species is a million years old and for 990,000 of those years we were\nsort of half-smart animals scraping out a living. Then, all of a sudden,\nten thousand years ago, something happened, and now we're flying in space.\"\n\n\"Brain Wave\" by Poul Anderson. We exited this galactic cloud, see...\n\nFPK3" } ] }, { "message_id": "<51680.216.15.14.160.1182442413.squirrel@www.doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2007-06-21T16:13:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<12453.67.142.130.21.1182422677.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Like I say: if your theory requires that humans not fuck, your theory is\nwrong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a good thing there are no such theories in play, then.\n\nMutual infertility in no way implies a lack of fucky-wucky." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1441.67.142.130.48.1182445639.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-06-21T17:07:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<51680.216.15.14.160.1182442413.squirrel@www.doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Like I say: if your theory requires that humans not fuck, your theory is\nwrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's a good thing there are no such theories in play, then." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mutual infertility in no way implies a lack of fucky-wucky." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the other hand:\n\nmatthew at calmeilles.co.uk writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Batrinque at aol.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To date, no DNA evidence exists of any genetic contribution to\npresentday humans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://genetics.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pgen.0020105.eor" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Using sequence data from the Environmental Genome Project, we find strong\nevidence for ancient admixture in both a European and a West African\npopulation (p ~ 10^{-7}), with contributions to the modern gene pool of at\nleast 5%. While Neanderthals form an obvious archaic source population\ncandidate in Europe, there is not yet a clear source population candidate\nin West Africa.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "." } ] }, { "message_id": "<181408.91851.qm@web32403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-21T17:13:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Andy Robertson wrote:\n \n\nLikely enough. Genocide is the rule in hominid\ngroup interactions, after \nall. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, I don't know. I think it's a pretty modern\ninnovation. It seems that mass acculturation has been\nthe rule for most of human history. Thus the mongols\nin China, the Persian, Parthian, and Roman empires,\nblah blee, blah blah. That's one reason I think that\nhomo s. and homo n. might have interbred. The reason I\ndon't think that they were lunch is that they appear\nto be larger, stronger, as smart as, and as\ntechnologically advanced as the homo sapiens they had\nencountered. Maybe disease got them, but I don't think\nthey were massacred.\n\nDon\n\nThe Evangelists: a Lesser Apocrypha http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=178109961" } ] }, { "message_id": "<35297.207.172.28.2.1182446160.squirrel@www.doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2007-06-21T17:16:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<1441.67.142.130.48.1182445639.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So when a study disagrees with your theory, it's because the archaeologist\nis a bumbling idiot who's no match for a meticulous researcher like Plato,\nbut when it agrees with your theory, it's taken as gospel?\n\nI'm quite open to the idea that Neanderthals interbred with modern humans.\nI just don't like your ongoing caricature of the opposing position." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3621.67.142.130.48.1182447090.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-06-21T17:31:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<35297.207.172.28.2.1182446160.squirrel@www.doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On the other hand:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So when a study disagrees with your theory, it's because the archaeologist\nis a bumbling idiot who's no match for a meticulous researcher like Plato,\nbut when it agrees with your theory, it's taken as gospel?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wouldn't say gospel. Gospel is revealed and unquestionable (by the\ntheory, anyway).\n\nI'd say that if it agrees with my theory I'm more willing to look on it\nfavorably. Of course it helps that the people over on that side of the\nargument have been arguing among themselves over which version of their\nstory is the correct one (the un-Eving and re-Eving of African Eve that\nhas been referred to previously).\n\nI've looked into it extensively and I am comfortable with the position I\nhave chosen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm quite open to the idea that Neanderthals interbred with modern humans.\nI just don't like your ongoing caricature of the opposing position." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're allowed. There's probably stuff about you I wouldn't like.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9a33123d0706211250r1260a631xef2b42ebb2a768ad@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2007-06-21T19:50:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<3621.67.142.130.48.1182447090.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Kieran Mullen wrote:\n\"The Friendship Light\" is, I believe, a Lovecraft mythos story.\nIt's in \"Innocents Abroad.\" You do have to read a bit between the\nlines, though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, the narrator's friends do sound like a bunch of fun guys, don't they?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Iorwerth Thomas", "address": "iorweththomas at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-21T22:13:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<9a33123d0706211250r1260a631xef2b42ebb2a768ad@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Tony Ellis\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Kieran Mullen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"The Friendship Light\" is, I believe, a Lovecraft mythos story.\nIt's in \"Innocents Abroad.\" You do have to read a bit between the\nlines, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, the narrator's friends do sound like a bunch of fun guys, don't they?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"The Tree is My Hat\" also has Lovecraftian undertones, if I recall \ncorrectly." } ] }, { "message_id": "<200706220728.39516.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-06-22T11:28:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<14480.67.142.130.38.1182389157.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Wednesday 20 June 2007 21:25, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nTo date, no DNA evidence exists of any genetic contribution to\npresentday\nhumans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Maltese teeth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I figured I'd expand (though of course everyone knows what I am talking\nabout, here, right?).\n\nSome Neanderthal skulls got funny teeth. Supposedly unique to the seperate\nspecies that didn't interbreed. Except a bunch of Maltese people have\nteeth like this. How'd that happen?\n\nThere's all sorts of bogosity in paleoanthropology. Did you know there are\na bunch of these academic scientists who seriously maintain that human\nbeings didn't have speech before 70,000 years ago or so? They were every\nway identical to us, they just couldn't talk, poor things.\n\nWhere do they get these ideas?\n\nThe species is a million years old and for 990,000 of those years we were\nsort of half-smart animals scraping out a living. Then, all of a sudden,\nten thousand years ago, something happened, and now we're flying in space.\n\nTwo kinds of people who didn't look any different than hottentots and\nswedes hung out around each other for tens of thousands of years, with\ninterbreedable genomes, and none of them had children.\n\nPeople want to believe these kinds of things, they can. I'll pass." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure if you're trolling or really believe what you've posted above, \nbut what you wrote matches little or nothing that I've read on the subject. \nThey're more like caricatures of actual anthropological positions and \ntheories. This list isn't the place for such discussions, so I'll bow out \nbut anyone interested, please take the time to do some Googling and see \nwhat's actually being said rather than take a second or third hand account of \nit." } ] }, { "message_id": "<200706220732.19260.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-06-22T11:32:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The problem of Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<265956.88271.qm@web32401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thursday 21 June 2007 03:11, don doggett wrote:\n--- Andy Robertson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I like your other ideas but don't much credit the\ninterbreeding thing.\n\nOTOH Neanderthals as grendels I can swallow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How about this one?\n\n from http://xchar.home.att.net/n2a/medhyp.htm\n\n\"The Neanderthals, I propose, disappeared from Europe\nand Asia for the same reason that the mammoths\ndisappeared: we ate them.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suspect he's probably more right than he does. Neanderthals probably DID \ndisappear for a reason similar to that of the mammoths.\n\nhttp://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/05/ice-age.html" } ] } ] }