{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4868", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4868, "subject": "the elephant in the room", "messages": 14, "voices": 9, "first": "2007-06-27T18:35:33+00:00", "last": "2007-06-28T21:43:37+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<57675.49628.qm@web32414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-27T18:35:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the elephant in the room", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So . . .\n\nWhy has there not been any full blooded conversation\nabout Soldier of Sidon on the list? It's a \"bigger\"\nbook than Wizard Knight in terms of anticipation, but\nit just sort of fizzled on the list. For myself, I\njust don't have the time anymore to do the digging I\nneed to do to even create a fringe theory about it.\nBut what about everyone else? Did you hate it? Did it\nseem too straightforward to talk about? Or is it just\nblah? I'm just curious, and no answer I suppose is an\nanswer too. My biggest criticism is that I have\nabsolutely no idea what happened to Latro to get him\nimprisoned in Nubia and really no clue as to what is\ngoing on during that entire sequence. To the point\nthat I didn't care to find out. Other than that, I\nreally enjoyed it.\n\nDon\n\nThe Evangelists: a Lesser Apocrypha http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=178109961" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370706271149s13cb71eche57e2077e9aa1091@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-27T18:49:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the elephant in the room", "in_reply_to": "<57675.49628.qm@web32414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don,\n\nSome personal thinks on \"Soldier of Sidon.\"\n\n1. I find the \"Soldier\" books the hardest to read of all Wolfe's\nwork. I don't know why this should be. Part of it, I suspect,\nis that the artificiality of it is right on the surface; the conceit\nof Latro's memory loss, while poignant and meaningful, also\ncreates a surface reason for Wolfe's usual lacunae, making\nit harder to look for meaning in them (Latro isn't suppressing\nunpleasant facts, he just doesn't know a lot of them), while\nat the same time almost forcing a degree of repetition that is\ntotally un-Lupine. Because of this, the first two are my least\nreread Wolfe novels, and I chose to reread them prior to\nreading \"Sidon,\" and so only got to \"Sidon\" this past month.\n\n2. There was some discussion of \"Sidon\" after it came\nout. I've saved it unread, and will get around to reading\nit soon. Maybe I'll respond to some of it.\n\n3. In many ways, I found \"Sidon\" an easier read than its\npredecessors. Still quite difficult (something about Latro's\nstyle just does *not* fit well into my parser) but easier:\npossibly because I know Egyptian culture/history better\nthan Greek and had less trouble understanding what was\ngoing on.\n\n4. But I just don't find a great deal of meaning in these books.\nPartly, I'm sure, because I struggle just to read them, and\nbecause I've reread them so little; but partly because so\nmuch *is* on the surface. There seems to be very little\n\"hidden stuff\" going on, other than whatever is going on\nwith the gods of various lands bickering with each other.\nBut once you take them as literally existing beings, well,\nthat's what gods of that sort *do*." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/27/07, don doggett wrote:\nSo . . .\n\nWhy has there not been any full blooded conversation\nabout Soldier of Sidon on the list? It's a \"bigger\"\nbook than Wizard Knight in terms of anticipation, but\nit just sort of fizzled on the list. For myself, I\njust don't have the time anymore to do the digging I\nneed to do to even create a fringe theory about it.\nBut what about everyone else? Did you hate it? Did it\nseem too straightforward to talk about? Or is it just\nblah? I'm just curious, and no answer I suppose is an\nanswer too. My biggest criticism is that I have\nabsolutely no idea what happened to Latro to get him\nimprisoned in Nubia and really no clue as to what is\ngoing on during that entire sequence. To the point\nthat I didn't care to find out. Other than that, I\nreally enjoyed it.\n\nDon\n\nThe Evangelists: a Lesser Apocrypha http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=178109961\n\n\n ____________________________________________________________________________________\nShape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200706271753.33890.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2007-06-27T21:53:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the elephant in the room", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370706271149s13cb71eche57e2077e9aa1091@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday 27 June 2007 14:49, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n1. I find the \"Soldier\" books the hardest to read of all Wolfe's\nwork. I don't know why this should be. Part of it, I suspect,\nis that the artificiality of it is right on the surface; the conceit\nof Latro's memory loss, while poignant and meaningful, also\ncreates a surface reason for Wolfe's usual lacunae, making\nit harder to look for meaning in them (Latro isn't suppressing\nunpleasant facts, he just doesn't know a lot of them), while\nat the same time almost forcing a degree of repetition that is\ntotally un-Lupine. Because of this, the first two are my least\nreread Wolfe novels, and I chose to reread them prior to\nreading \"Sidon,\" and so only got to \"Sidon\" this past month." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4. But I just don't find a great deal of meaning in these books.\nPartly, I'm sure, because I struggle just to read them, and\nbecause I've reread them so little; but partly because so\nmuch *is* on the surface. There seems to be very little\n\"hidden stuff\" going on, other than whatever is going on\nwith the gods of various lands bickering with each other.\nBut once you take them as literally existing beings, well,\nthat's what gods of that sort *do*." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. I think the Soldier series are some of the easiest to read. In \npart, that's because I agree with point 4 - they also seem the shallowest of \nWolfe's books. Some of the action is confusing, largely due to Latro's \nmemory issues, but for the most part the books roll along with plenty of \naction and intrigue. Unlike much of Wolfe's stuff, they don't seem like they \nshould have a gold stamp on the cover proclaiming \"This Is Literature!\" And \nI don't mean to imply that Wolfe is pretentious - I don't think that he is. \nBut his stuff is deep, and the Soldier books, while they have plenty of depth \nto the story, seem more like they're \"just\" stories to be read primarily for \npleasure." } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0706271803o51f57c1cl3175fc378703813f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-28T01:03:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the elephant in the room", "in_reply_to": "<200706271753.33890.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The whole Soldier series is opaque to me: I enjoy the surface as I\nenjoy all Wolfe's writing, but I can tell there is something\nunderneath that I can't quite perceive. Wolfe subjects the reader to\nsomething of Latro's own predicament by overlaying the events with the\n\"mist\" of his fictional translation -- e.g., the place names and gods\nare unfamiliar, and Wolfe suggests in the foreword that the\npunctuation and even the words themselves can't be completely trusted.\n Grrr! Throw a dog a bone, will ya? I can figure out the place names\nwell enough, but if only the gods to whom Latro speaks would\noccasionally mention in passing the name by which they might be\nrecognized or googled by a 21st-century reader whose public school\neducation included not one single lesson in the Classics, it would\nmake progress ever so much smoother for me." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2007-06-28T02:40:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the elephant in the room", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370706271149s13cb71eche57e2077e9aa1091@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/27/07, don doggett wrote:\nSo . . .\n\nWhy has there not been any full blooded conversation\nabout Soldier of Sidon on the list? It's a \"bigger\"\nbook than Wizard Knight in terms of anticipation, but\nit just sort of fizzled on the list. For myself, I\njust don't have the time anymore to do the digging I\nneed to do to even create a fringe theory about it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and Dan'l Danehy-Oakes answered:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There seems to be very little\n\"hidden stuff\" going on, other than whatever is going on\nwith the gods of various lands bickering with each other.\nBut once you take them as literally existing beings, well,\nthat's what gods of that sort *do*." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, my question about bickering of the gods is, where is the God of\nthe Israelites? We seem to have carefully circled around there. I'm a\nbit vague as to what is going on Biblically around this period. I was\nwondering about Lions and B. as Solomon and Sheba but a few hundred years \nout ;)\n\nDavid Duffy." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "| David Duffy (MBBS PhD) ,-_|\\\n| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / *\n| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research \\_,-._/\n| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia GPG 4D0B994A v" } ] }, { "message_id": "<468322A9.70802@joncapps.net>", "from": { "name": "Jon Capps", "address": "jon at joncapps.net" }, "date": "2007-06-28T02:53:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the elephant in the room", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Duffy wrote:\nWell, my question about bickering of the gods is, where is the God of\nthe Israelites? We seem to have carefully circled around there. I'm a\nbit vague as to what is going on Biblically around this period. I was\nwondering about Lions and B. as Solomon and Sheba but a few hundred years \nout ;)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At first I thought it might occur during the 400+ years between the Old \nand New Testaments, but the Battle of Plataea occurred in 479 BC and \nMalachi was written about 435 BC, so I don't know.\n\njon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-28T11:02:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the elephant in the room", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0706271803o51f57c1cl3175fc378703813f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bullfinch\n\n21st-century reader whose public school\neducation included not one single lesson in the Classics, it would\nmake progress ever so much smoother for me." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20070628180404.385181BB0B@che.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-06-28T18:04:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the elephant in the room", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0706271803o51f57c1cl3175fc378703813f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 02:03 28/06/2007, Matthew wrote:\nI can figure out the place names well enough, but if only the gods \nto whom Latro speaks would occasionally mention in passing the name \nby which they might be recognized or googled by a 21st-century \nreader whose public school education included not one single lesson \nin the Classics, it would make progress ever so much smoother for me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems to me that this sort of thing is a good use for a wiki page. \nI know there's a load of stuff about it in the list archives, but \nsearching that for concrete information can be a painful process...\n\nAnyway, I've set up such a page here:\nhttp://www.holkar.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WolfeWiki.SoldierNames\nas part of my testing around the practicality of a general Wolfe \nwiki. So far I've just bunged up a load of items from SotM and a few from SoA.\n\nIf anyone else would like to contribute, by adding, improving, or \nwhatever, please do -- there are some notes about that here:\nhttp://www.holkar.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Admin.Editing\n\nbest,\n\nMo" } ] }, { "message_id": "<331181.84243.qm@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-06-28T18:27:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the elephant in the room", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fate was kind to me in that my mom had a copy of Edith\nHamilton's Mythology and Rouse's translation of the\nIlliad on her bookshelf. It wasn't much, but it was a\nbig enough rabbit hole to get my head and shoulders\nin. I never came out. But Wolfe is somewhere else\naltogether.\n\nDon" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Bob Miller wrote:\n\nBullfinch\n\n21st-century reader whose public school\neducation included not one single lesson in the\nClassics, it would\nmake progress ever so much smoother for me.\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0706281138q4a557e6ere536f54eff036d55@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-28T18:38:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the elephant in the room", "in_reply_to": "<331181.84243.qm@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mo wrote:\nIt seems to me that this sort of thing is a good use for a wiki page.\n[snip]\nhttp://www.holkar.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WolfeWiki.SoldierNames" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is extremely helpful -- much more comprehensive than anything\nI've found in the archives. I hope the wiki project goes forward,\nbecause I think its value to Wolfe's readers -- a community unrivaled\nin their need to reread, puzzle, research and discuss -- would be very\ngreat.\n\nWho is the \"river-man\" that Latro meets in the very first chapter of Mist?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370706281220u36e9d79axc14878129adca0e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-28T19:20:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the elephant in the room", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/27/07, David Duffy wrote:\nWell, my question about bickering of the gods is, where is the God of\nthe Israelites? We seem to have carefully circled around there. I'm a\nbit vague as to what is going on Biblically around this period. I was\nwondering about Lions and B. as Solomon and Sheba but a few hundred years\nout ;)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lessee ... this would be during the period of the return from Babylon.\nNehemiah would be exhorting the people to rebuild the Temple and\nreinstate the priestly class. Not *too* long after this comes the\nreign of Antiochus and the Maccabees.\n\nAs for \"where is the God of the Israelites,\" He's not shown His\nface to Latro that I can see, but a few things some of the gods\nLatro meets -- no, I can *not* cite anything from memory! -- led\nme to think that they are expecting to be ousted from their jobs\nas rulers/guides of humankind soon (on their time scale)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370706281241s5910aef1hbd0e8d45111fd176@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-06-28T19:41:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the elephant in the room", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0706281138q4a557e6ere536f54eff036d55@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/28/07, Matthew Groves wrote:\nWho is the \"river-man\" that Latro meets in the very first chapter of Mist?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have always assumed that he was just a river-spirit (daimon)\nlike Peneus and Achelous, a son of Tethys and Oceanus -- thus\ntechnically an Oceanad (or maybe a Potamad but I don't know if\nthere is such a term)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20070628212425.43F901BB4E@che.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-06-28T21:24:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the elephant in the room", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370706281241s5910aef1hbd0e8d45111fd176@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 20:41 28/06/2007, Dan'l wrote:\nOn 6/28/07, Matthew Groves wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who is the \"river-man\" that Latro meets in the very first chapter of Mist?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have always assumed that he was just a river-spirit (daimon) like \nPeneus and Achelous, a son of Tethys and Oceanus -- thus technically \nan Oceanad (or maybe a Potamad but I don't know if there is such a term)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I assumed that too, although it would be good to know which river it \nis, as there might be some particular legend associated with its spirit,\n\nMo" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1183067017.16007.1197608821@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "from": { "name": "Rex Lycanthrosaurus", "address": "lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm" }, "date": "2007-06-28T21:43:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the elephant in the room", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0706281138q4a557e6ere536f54eff036d55@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:38:23 -0500, \"Matthew Groves\"\n said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who is the \"river-man\" that Latro meets in the very first chapter of\nMist?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "His name is Asopus and the river bears his name." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Rex Lycanthrosaurus\n lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm\n\n-- \nhttp://www.fastmail.fm - Send your email first class" } ] } ] }