{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4884", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4884, "subject": "And Another:", "messages": 17, "voices": 6, "first": "2007-07-19T16:42:06+00:00", "last": "2007-07-21T14:31:52+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90707190942v4be768a7tb62a36fcee65ca46@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-07-19T16:42:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) And Another:", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you for clearing up the previous one, I'm heartened enough by that to\ntry my luck again with another question: In Shadow, end of Ch. 2, when\nSeverian describes his drowning vision, he says he saw Malrubius. However,\nat that point he's questioned by \"An old man, a boatman from his tar-stained\nclothes\" about it, the man asks whether he actually saw a woman. Of course\nSeverian does see the undine, and hears Thecla, but doesn't answer. The\npuzzling thing is the identity of the man, and how he knows what he does.\nLet me know what you think!\n\nMy own speculations are thus:\nJudging by his familiarity with the situation - he's confident enough to ask\na clarification of something as ephemeral as a vision, so he must know what\nhe's talking about - he's familiar with a version of Severian's story told\nat another time. However, the odd thing is that Severian doesn't appear in\nany time so close to his starting point. In fact, the closest documented\ntime preceding his birth is the age of Typhon, when he travels down Gyoll,\nisn't it? He does encounter a lot of boatmen then, some of whom become his\ndisciples as the Conciliator, but that is so far removed that it seems\nunlikely that they preserved that minor a part of his tale.\nThe first Severian's time traveling is undocumented as best I know, though\napparently both S1 and S2 are Apu Punchau at some time, and since his tomb\nis in the necropolis it's possible that he has in fact visited some time\nperiod much closer to his birth and that's where the story diffuses from.\n\nHowever, these are very vague. Even though Severian often bumps into echoes\nof himself, they are usually much more defined ones, that's why I'm curious\nif there's a better explanation.\n\nPaul" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370707191037q2064babci9c007399cc3049fa@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-07-19T17:37:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) And Another:", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90707190942v4be768a7tb62a36fcee65ca46@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. The old man is ... I'm forgetting his name, but Dorcas' husband,\nand Sev's own grandfather, whom he meets again in the Gardens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/19/07, Paul B wrote:\n\nThank you for clearing up the previous one, I'm heartened enough by that to\ntry my luck again with another question: In Shadow, end of Ch. 2, when\nSeverian describes his drowning vision, he says he saw Malrubius. However,\nat that point he's questioned by \"An old man, a boatman from his tar-stained\nclothes\" about it, the man asks whether he actually saw a woman. Of course\nSeverian does see the undine, and hears Thecla, but doesn't answer. The\npuzzling thing is the identity of the man, and how he knows what he does.\nLet me know what you think!\n\nMy own speculations are thus:\nJudging by his familiarity with the situation - he's confident enough to ask\na clarification of something as ephemeral as a vision, so he must know what\nhe's talking about - he's familiar with a version of Severian's story told\nat another time. However, the odd thing is that Severian doesn't appear in\nany time so close to his starting point. In fact, the closest documented\ntime preceding his birth is the age of Typhon, when he travels down Gyoll,\nisn't it? He does encounter a lot of boatmen then, some of whom become his\ndisciples as the Conciliator, but that is so far removed that it seems\nunlikely that they preserved that minor a part of his tale.\nThe first Severian's time traveling is undocumented as best I know, though\napparently both S1 and S2 are Apu Punchau at some time, and since his tomb\nis in the necropolis it's possible that he has in fact visited some time\nperiod much closer to his birth and that's where the story diffuses from.\n\nHowever, these are very vague. Even though Severian often bumps into echoes\nof himself, they are usually much more defined ones, that's why I'm curious\nif there's a better explanation.\n\nPaul\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90707191045h364d1105j3fe8ff4099333753@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-07-19T17:45:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) And Another:", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370707191037q2064babci9c007399cc3049fa@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The old boatman on the Lake of Birds? But how does he hear about Severian's\nstory before Severian meets him? Or is he referring to some other event\nwhen he asks about seeing a woman beneath the water?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/19/07, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nYes. The old man is ... I'm forgetting his name, but Dorcas' husband,\nand Sev's own grandfather, whom he meets again in the Gardens.\n\nOn 7/19/07, Paul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thank you for clearing up the previous one, I'm heartened enough by that\nto\ntry my luck again with another question: In Shadow, end of Ch. 2, when\nSeverian describes his drowning vision, he says he saw\nMalrubius. However,\nat that point he's questioned by \"An old man, a boatman from his\ntar-stained\nclothes\" about it, the man asks whether he actually saw a woman. Of\ncourse\nSeverian does see the undine, and hears Thecla, but doesn't answer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The\npuzzling thing is the identity of the man, and how he knows what he\ndoes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Let me know what you think!\n\nMy own speculations are thus:\nJudging by his familiarity with the situation - he's confident enough to\nask\na clarification of something as ephemeral as a vision, so he must know\nwhat\nhe's talking about - he's familiar with a version of Severian's story\ntold\nat another time. However, the odd thing is that Severian doesn't appear\nin\nany time so close to his starting point. In fact, the closest\ndocumented\ntime preceding his birth is the age of Typhon, when he travels down\nGyoll,\nisn't it? He does encounter a lot of boatmen then, some of whom become\nhis\ndisciples as the Conciliator, but that is so far removed that it seems\nunlikely that they preserved that minor a part of his tale.\nThe first Severian's time traveling is undocumented as best I know,\nthough\napparently both S1 and S2 are Apu Punchau at some time, and since his\ntomb\nis in the necropolis it's possible that he has in fact visited some time\nperiod much closer to his birth and that's where the story diffuses\nfrom.\n\nHowever, these are very vague. Even though Severian often bumps into\nechoes\nof himself, they are usually much more defined ones, that's why I'm\ncurious\nif there's a better explanation.\n\nPaul\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90707191102s4b2f1966r8611eeecb13b6607@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-07-19T18:02:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) And Another:", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90707191045h364d1105j3fe8ff4099333753@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To save time and answer my own question, re-examining the old boatman's tale\ndoes make it clear that it's the \"other event\" case, that is his tie to\nDorcas. He's obsessed with finding her corpse and has a theory that they\nmove around and wash down into the river (Ch12, Shadow). Thus, overhearing\nSeverian's underwater experience he ties it to his unrelated quest and asks\nfor clarification." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/19/07, Paul B wrote:\n\nThe old boatman on the Lake of Birds? But how does he hear about\nSeverian's story before Severian meets him? Or is he referring to some\nother event when he asks about seeing a woman beneath the water?\n\nOn 7/19/07, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes. The old man is ... I'm forgetting his name, but Dorcas' husband,\nand Sev's own grandfather, whom he meets again in the Gardens.\n\nOn 7/19/07, Paul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Thank you for clearing up the previous one, I'm heartened enough by\nthat to\ntry my luck again with another question: In Shadow, end of Ch. 2,\nwhen\nSeverian describes his drowning vision, he says he saw\nMalrubius. However,\nat that point he's questioned by \"An old man, a boatman from his\ntar-stained\nclothes\" about it, the man asks whether he actually saw a woman. Of\ncourse\nSeverian does see the undine, and hears Thecla, but doesn't answer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The\npuzzling thing is the identity of the man, and how he knows what he\ndoes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Let me know what you think!\n\nMy own speculations are thus:\nJudging by his familiarity with the situation - he's confident enough\nto ask\na clarification of something as ephemeral as a vision, so he must know\nwhat\nhe's talking about - he's familiar with a version of Severian's story\ntold\nat another time. However, the odd thing is that Severian doesn't\nappear in\nany time so close to his starting point. In fact, the closest\ndocumented\ntime preceding his birth is the age of Typhon, when he travels down\nGyoll,\nisn't it? He does encounter a lot of boatmen then, some of whom\nbecome his\ndisciples as the Conciliator, but that is so far removed that it seems\nunlikely that they preserved that minor a part of his tale.\nThe first Severian's time traveling is undocumented as best I know,\nthough\napparently both S1 and S2 are Apu Punchau at some time, and since his\ntomb\nis in the necropolis it's possible that he has in fact visited some\ntime\nperiod much closer to his birth and that's where the story diffuses\nfrom.\n\nHowever, these are very vague. Even though Severian often bumps into\nechoes\nof himself, they are usually much more defined ones, that's why I'm\ncurious\nif there's a better explanation.\n\nPaul\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001c01c7ca2f$5d90e8c0$a6cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-07-19T18:05:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) And Another:", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90707191102s4b2f1966r8611eeecb13b6607@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B wrote:\nThank you for clearing up the previous one, I'm heartened enough by that to\ntry my luck again with another question: In Shadow, end of Ch. 2, when\nSeverian describes his drowning vision, he says he saw Malrubius. However,\nat that point he's questioned by \"An old man, a boatman from his\ntar-stained\nclothes\" about it, the man asks whether he actually saw a woman. Of course\nSeverian does see the undine, and hears Thecla, but doesn't answer. The\npuzzling thing is the identity of the man, and how he knows what he does." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see that the old boatman knows anything at all about what Severian\nsaw. He just wanted to know if the dead person Severian saw was a woman.\n\nAs for his identity; one theory, accepted by some and which does not involve\ntime travel, is that the old boatman is Dorcas' husband. He has been looking\nfor her body for nearly forty years but can't find it in the lake in the\nBotanic Garden upriver. He thinks her body may have washed out of the lake\nand moved downstream.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9a33123d0707191243h68018bdfm46a557f4d2714b41@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2007-07-19T19:43:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) And Another:", "in_reply_to": "<001c01c7ca2f$5d90e8c0$a6cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B wrote:\nat that point he's questioned by \"An old man, a boatman from his tar-stained\nclothes\" about it, the man asks whether he actually saw a woman. Of course\nSeverian does see the undine, and hears Thecla, but doesn't answer. The\npuzzling thing is the identity of the man, and how he knows what he does.\nLet me know what you think!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and Dan'l:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. The old man is ... I'm forgetting his name, but Dorcas' husband,\nand Sev's own grandfather, whom he meets again in the Gardens." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This has been said before, and I'm not quite clear why everyone seems\nso certain. Yes, Dorcas's husband is looking for a woman underwater,\nand yes, he says that some bodies end up in the river, but isn't it a\nbit odd that Severian doesn't recognise the old man when he sees him\nagain in the Gardens? And why would Dorcas's husband be wearing the\ntar-stained garb of a river boatman, when he's an ex-shopkeeper who\nowns a tiny skiff?\n\nI've always assumed that the old man in tar-stained clothes, if he's\nspent his life on the river, has occasionally glimpsed, or heard, an\nundine - just as the boatman in CotA has. So when Severian is fished\nout of Gyoll saying he's seen someone underwater, the old boatman\nassumes - correctly, as it happens - that Severian has seen the same\nthing." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90707191339i77b486e9j1373df7c78fd659d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-07-19T20:39:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) And Another:", "in_reply_to": "<9a33123d0707191243h68018bdfm46a557f4d2714b41@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's nigh impossible for someone to infer from what Severian said to\nRoche that undines were involved unless they knew what actually happened\ndown there. The boatman from Citadel remarked how unique it was that he\nheard those voices on the river, so the undine phenomenon is probably not\nwidely known at all. Furthermore, asked in response to Severian's mention\nof a name, Malrubius, which should rule out an undine since average\nCommonwealthers seem too afraid of them to do something like learn their\nnames.\nAs for the old man, it's not clear what his current job is, but he sure is\npoor, and he does own a boat of sorts that would still require tar to keep\nafloat." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/19/07, Tony Ellis wrote:\n\nPaul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "at that point he's questioned by \"An old man, a boatman from his\ntar-stained\nclothes\" about it, the man asks whether he actually saw a woman. Of\ncourse\nSeverian does see the undine, and hears Thecla, but doesn't answer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The\npuzzling thing is the identity of the man, and how he knows what he\ndoes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Let me know what you think!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and Dan'l:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes. The old man is ... I'm forgetting his name, but Dorcas' husband,\nand Sev's own grandfather, whom he meets again in the Gardens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This has been said before, and I'm not quite clear why everyone seems\nso certain. Yes, Dorcas's husband is looking for a woman underwater,\nand yes, he says that some bodies end up in the river, but isn't it a\nbit odd that Severian doesn't recognise the old man when he sees him\nagain in the Gardens? And why would Dorcas's husband be wearing the\ntar-stained garb of a river boatman, when he's an ex-shopkeeper who\nowns a tiny skiff?\n\nI've always assumed that the old man in tar-stained clothes, if he's\nspent his life on the river, has occasionally glimpsed, or heard, an\nundine - just as the boatman in CotA has. So when Severian is fished\nout of Gyoll saying he's seen someone underwater, the old boatman\nassumes - correctly, as it happens - that Severian has seen the same\nthing.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9a33123d0707191540s58d1bcb3j3883cd86df218bf4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2007-07-19T22:40:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) And Another:", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90707191339i77b486e9j1373df7c78fd659d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B wrote:\nI think it's nigh impossible for someone to infer from what Severian said to\nRoche that undines were involved unless they knew what actually happened\ndown there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not saying the boatman infers that undines are involved. I don't\nimagine he knows what an undine is. But if he has previously heard a\nwoman's voice coming out of the water, or glimpsed something, then it\nwould explain why he immediately jumps to the conclusion that a woman\nis what Severian has seen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for the old man, it's not clear what his current job is, but he sure is\npoor, and he does own a boat of sorts that would still require tar to keep\nafloat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're still not very likely to get tar-stained clothes poling a\nlittle boat around a lake. And in any case, no mention is made of\nDorcas's husband having tar-stained clothes. The fact that Severian\nnotices the river boatman's clothes are tar-stained but makes no such\nobservation about the old man in the Gardens is another reason to\nassume they are two different people." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90707191646y19ebf933uf77086730a2acb70@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-07-19T23:46:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) And Another:", "in_reply_to": "<9a33123d0707191540s58d1bcb3j3883cd86df218bf4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Severian's attitude to details is famously bad - he tends to include,\ninterpret and omit things liberally. It's furthermore not too surprising\nthat he mis-identified the old man some years later as he grew more shrunken\nand old since Severian's memory is provably faulty at times. Interestingly,\nhe even mis-identifies himself on the funerary bronze in Shadow, and in his\nsimilarity to Ouen, which in Citadel was described as uncanny.\nThe strongest evidence is still the man's clear reaction to the name of\nMalrubius. The old man from the lake would have a reason to expect someone\nto see a familiar face below water, but few others would. Nothing\nunfamiliar would have a name. Certainly not women speaking in strange\ntongues from the river.\nFinally, the stylistic argument would be that Severian seems to encounter\nthe rest of his ancestors in these sorts of puzzles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/19/07, Tony Ellis wrote:\n\nPaul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it's nigh impossible for someone to infer from what Severian said\nto\nRoche that undines were involved unless they knew what actually happened\ndown there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not saying the boatman infers that undines are involved. I don't\nimagine he knows what an undine is. But if he has previously heard a\nwoman's voice coming out of the water, or glimpsed something, then it\nwould explain why he immediately jumps to the conclusion that a woman\nis what Severian has seen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As for the old man, it's not clear what his current job is, but he sure\nis\npoor, and he does own a boat of sorts that would still require tar to\nkeep\nafloat." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're still not very likely to get tar-stained clothes poling a\nlittle boat around a lake. And in any case, no mention is made of\nDorcas's husband having tar-stained clothes. The fact that Severian\nnotices the river boatman's clothes are tar-stained but makes no such\nobservation about the old man in the Gardens is another reason to\nassume they are two different people.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2007-07-20T07:19:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) And Another:", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90707191646y19ebf933uf77086730a2acb70@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Paul B wrote:\nWell, Severian's attitude to details is famously bad - he tends to include,\ninterpret and omit things liberally. It's furthermore not too surprising\nthat he mis-identified the old man some years later as he grew more shrunken\nand old since Severian's memory is provably faulty at times. Interestingly,\nhe even mis-identifies himself on the funerary bronze in Shadow, and in his\nsimilarity to Ouen, which in Citadel was described as uncanny." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that's a detail from Luria's description of his mnemonist, who IIRC\nhad difficulty associating a profile view and frontal view of the same\nperson.\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90707200920m5ebcf55dp75ef38001e26654e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-07-20T16:20:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) And Another:", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Really. That's pretty interesting - is that documented somewhere?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/20/07, David Duffy wrote:\n\nOn Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Paul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, Severian's attitude to details is famously bad - he tends to\ninclude,\ninterpret and omit things liberally. It's furthermore not too\nsurprising\nthat he mis-identified the old man some years later as he grew more\nshrunken\nand old since Severian's memory is provably faulty at\ntimes. Interestingly,\nhe even mis-identifies himself on the funerary bronze in Shadow, and in\nhis\nsimilarity to Ouen, which in Citadel was described as uncanny." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that's a detail from Luria's description of his mnemonist, who\nIIRC\nhad difficulty associating a profile view and frontal view of the same\nperson.\n\nDavid Duffy.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3519.67.142.130.45.1184954149.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-07-20T17:55:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) And Another:", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is this Isaac Luria the Spanish Qabalist you are talking about?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Paul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, Severian's attitude to details is famously bad - he tends to\ninclude,\ninterpret and omit things liberally. It's furthermore not too\nsurprising\nthat he mis-identified the old man some years later as he grew more\nshrunken\nand old since Severian's memory is provably faulty at times.\nInterestingly,\nhe even mis-identifies himself on the funerary bronze in Shadow, and in\nhis\nsimilarity to Ouen, which in Citadel was described as uncanny." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that's a detail from Luria's description of his mnemonist, who\nIIRC\nhad difficulty associating a profile view and frontal view of the same\nperson.\n\nDavid Duffy.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90707201210y328f68eeie7828517edfcc464@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-07-20T19:10:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) And Another:", "in_reply_to": "<3519.67.142.130.45.1184954149.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hahaha, no, the Russian psychologist Luria about his mnemonist subject S.\nThe day a kabbalist can say something meaningful about facial recognition\nwill be an interesting day indeed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/20/07, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nIs this Isaac Luria the Spanish Qabalist you are talking about?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Paul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, Severian's attitude to details is famously bad - he tends to\ninclude,\ninterpret and omit things liberally. It's furthermore not too\nsurprising\nthat he mis-identified the old man some years later as he grew more\nshrunken\nand old since Severian's memory is provably faulty at times.\nInterestingly,\nhe even mis-identifies himself on the funerary bronze in Shadow, and in\nhis\nsimilarity to Ouen, which in Citadel was described as uncanny." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think that's a detail from Luria's description of his mnemonist, who\nIIRC\nhad difficulty associating a profile view and frontal view of the same\nperson.\n\nDavid Duffy.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7204.67.142.130.23.1184960373.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-07-20T19:39:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) And Another:", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90707201210y328f68eeie7828517edfcc464@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK then.\n\nThere are extensive bits about large face and small face (also large nose\nand small nose) in Qabalah (more properly it begins in Merkabah literature\nand the qabalah inherits it, but that's bisecting rabbits). And analagous\nbits in Indian systems, but you just get to expect that. These folks are\non more about the face (and often other body parts) of God and similar\nthings, not recognizing human faces. Meaningful is a term whose use\nvaries.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hahaha, no, the Russian psychologist Luria about his mnemonist subject S.\nThe day a kabbalist can say something meaningful about facial recognition\nwill be an interesting day indeed.\n\nOn 7/20/07, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is this Isaac Luria the Spanish Qabalist you are talking about?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Paul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Well, Severian's attitude to details is famously bad - he tends to\ninclude,\ninterpret and omit things liberally. It's furthermore not too\nsurprising\nthat he mis-identified the old man some years later as he grew more\nshrunken\nand old since Severian's memory is provably faulty at times.\nInterestingly,\nhe even mis-identifies himself on the funerary bronze in Shadow, and\nin\nhis\nsimilarity to Ouen, which in Citadel was described as uncanny." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think that's a detail from Luria's description of his mnemonist, who\nIIRC\nhad difficulty associating a profile view and frontal view of the same\nperson.\n\nDavid Duffy.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9a33123d0707201546n2f04db53r8d611f124fbcefeb@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2007-07-20T22:46:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) And Another:", "in_reply_to": "<7204.67.142.130.23.1184960373.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B wrote:\nIt's furthermore not too surprising\nthat he mis-identified the old man some years later as he grew more shrunken\nand old" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Less than two years have passed. No one changes that much that fast.\nAnd even if they did, a similar amount of time passes between\nSeverian's seeing another old man, Rudesind, in the citadel and again\nat the House Absolute, and yet he has no trouble recognising him.\n\nIn fact, let's have a little context here: a few hours before meeting\nDorcas's husband in the Garden, Severian sees Racho, a man he has\npreviously met once, briefly, over a year ago. He recognises him\ninstantly. Just after meeting Dorcas's husband, Severian meets\nHildegrin, a man he has previously met once, briefly, and in bad\nlight, nearly two years ago. He knows at once that he has seen him\nbefore.\n\nAnd yet when Severian meets the old man in the Garden... nothing. Not\na flicker of recognition, not a hint. Just about any faith I might\nhave in the boatman-is-the-lake-man theory ends here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The strongest evidence is still the man's clear reaction to the name of\nMalrubius. The old man from the lake would have a reason to expect someone\nto see a familiar face below water, but few others would." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see how this is strong evidence for either side of the\nargument over the other. A young man has just been pulled from the\nriver, unconscious and near death. When he wakes up he says he saw\nsomeone he recognised. If the boatman is the old man from the Gardens\nthen yes, he might assume Severian was talking about seeing a dead\nbody. But equally, if the boatman is someone who has heard or glimpsed\na mysterious woman in the water, he might assume that this young man\nsaw the same thing as he was drowning, mistaking it in his duress for\nsomeone he knew.\n\n\nMy undine theory isn't conclusive, and I don't pretend it is. If\nsomeone has a more plausible explanation for why the boatman assumes\nSeverian has seen a woman under the water, I'm all ears. But \"because\nhe's really the old man from the Gardens, and Severian just doesn't\nrecognise him\" isn't it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90707201623m7c58e1epb4d5c1bd06a4f4bb@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-07-20T23:23:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) And Another:", "in_reply_to": "<9a33123d0707201546n2f04db53r8d611f124fbcefeb@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is well, but all it shows is what is already known, that Severian is\ncapable of impressive recall much of the time. In fact, since Severian\nclearly takes pride in his memory, he makes specific mention of these feats.\nHowever, it is just as clear from the examples I gave that his memory,\nespecially for faces, is spotty at times. (Another interesting one is that\nhe mis-identifies a clone (!), according to the Autarch in Citadel, of\nThecla in the House Azure as a peasant girl pretending to be Thecla, in\nShadow)\nWhen Severian's memory fails him he doesn't notice it till later, if at all,\nso no mention gets made. Thus, if he didn't realize he met the old man\nbefore, of course he wouldn't have anything special to say about meeting him\nagain on the Lake of Birds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/20/07, Tony Ellis wrote:\n\nPaul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's furthermore not too surprising\nthat he mis-identified the old man some years later as he grew more\nshrunken\nand old" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Less than two years have passed. No one changes that much that fast.\nAnd even if they did, a similar amount of time passes between\nSeverian's seeing another old man, Rudesind, in the citadel and again\nat the House Absolute, and yet he has no trouble recognising him.\n\nIn fact, let's have a little context here: a few hours before meeting\nDorcas's husband in the Garden, Severian sees Racho, a man he has\npreviously met once, briefly, over a year ago. He recognises him\ninstantly. Just after meeting Dorcas's husband, Severian meets\nHildegrin, a man he has previously met once, briefly, and in bad\nlight, nearly two years ago. He knows at once that he has seen him\nbefore.\n\nAnd yet when Severian meets the old man in the Garden... nothing. Not\na flicker of recognition, not a hint. Just about any faith I might\nhave in the boatman-is-the-lake-man theory ends here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The strongest evidence is still the man's clear reaction to the name of\nMalrubius. The old man from the lake would have a reason to expect\nsomeone\nto see a familiar face below water, but few others would." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see how this is strong evidence for either side of the\nargument over the other. A young man has just been pulled from the\nriver, unconscious and near death. When he wakes up he says he saw\nsomeone he recognised. If the boatman is the old man from the Gardens\nthen yes, he might assume Severian was talking about seeing a dead\nbody. But equally, if the boatman is someone who has heard or glimpsed\na mysterious woman in the water, he might assume that this young man\nsaw the same thing as he was drowning, mistaking it in his duress for\nsomeone he knew.\n\n\nMy undine theory isn't conclusive, and I don't pretend it is. If\nsomeone has a more plausible explanation for why the boatman assumes\nSeverian has seen a woman under the water, I'm all ears. But \"because\nhe's really the old man from the Gardens, and Severian just doesn't\nrecognise him\" isn't it.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9a33123d0707210731he8f430bv9c012ce0fb39431b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2007-07-21T14:31:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) And Another:", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90707201623m7c58e1epb4d5c1bd06a4f4bb@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B wrote:\nHowever, it is just as clear from the examples I gave that his memory,\nespecially for faces, is spotty at times" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I could dispute those examples, in the unlikely event that anyone is\ninterested. :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Severian's memory fails him he doesn't notice it till later, if at all,\nso no mention gets made. Thus, if he didn't realize he met the old man\nbefore, of course he wouldn't have anything special to say about meeting him\nagain on the Lake of Birds." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My problem with this oft-invoked line of argument is that you can\nprove anything by saying \"ah, but on this particular occasion,\nSeverian's memory failed him.\" How do you know, for example, that\nSeverian hasn't mis-remembered the actual post-drowning incident, and\nthe age and appearance of the Gyoll boatman?\n\nPresumably you think that generally, Severian's memory is reliable. In\nwhich case, why should we think that it has failed him when he meets\nthe old man in the Garden? We can't say \"because the old man is also\nthe Gyoll boatman,\" because we don't *know* that he's also the Gyoll\nboatman. To say so would just be circular reasoning:\n\n\"Severian doesn't recognise the boatman because on this occasion his\nmemory has failed him, which we know because he doesn't recognise the\nboatman.\"" } ] } ] }