{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4889", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4889, "subject": "The Morality of the Hierogrammates", "messages": 13, "voices": 4, "first": "2007-07-23T22:06:31+00:00", "last": "2007-07-25T05:36:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90707231506l1e4945c2o5108359a199d8987@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-07-23T22:06:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Morality of the Hierogrammates", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I recently read the archive discussion about the theodicean aspect of BotNS,\nand the morality and necessity of the flood that accompanies the new sun.\nOne thing struck me, and if it's old hat, then I've not been thorough enough\nin reading the archives. That thing is the precipitous pace of the flood,\nwhich apparently takes Urth in a matter of days and surprises those at the\nHouse Absolute by the time that Severian shows up. A flood of Biblical\nproportions, if you will.\n\nNow, one thing that has been jokingly asked of that one, can be seriously\nasked of this: where does the water come from? Though Wolfe seems to be\nfond of supernatural means having scientific explanations, this one is\npuzzling if one only ties it to the new sun.\n\nFirstly, if there is enough water to begin with in the form of ice, how does\nit melt so quickly? A warmer sun would seemingly also have to cook\neverything alive on the surface to provide enough energy to melt an amount\nof ice greater than Earth's in a matter of days.\nSecondly, assuming Urth has a similar amount of water, solid and liquid, as\nEarth does, it doesn't seem even possible that there's enough to flood the\nland to the extent Severian describes.\n\nWhile saying \"the powerful aliens did it\" can be seen as something of a\ncop-out for explaining Urth's mysteries, in this case I can't come up with\nan endogenous, natural, explanation.\nThus, my hypothesis is that the flood accompanying the new sun wasn't necessary\nas an attribute of the sun's renewal, at least not on that epic a scale.\nHowever, it may have been necessary for the social engineering the\nHierogrammates were attempting, the reboot humanity out of its torpor.\n\nThat sort of global upheaval is best presented with another, the coming of\nthe new sun, and this may in fact be why they repeatedly inform Severian\nthat there will be a flood, just so he doesn't get surprised and start\nthinking later. (This would also answer why they'd choose to save the\nbillions of Ragnarok Urth, but not the billions of flooded Urth - things are\ngoing as planned on Ushas)\n\nThis isn't to say the aliens are malicious, I've read plenty of hypotheses\nthat give reasons why they'd want a flood, possibly for humanity's long-term\nbenefit as well as their own, that I agree with enough to not even repeat.\nThe thing that might be potentially new in what I'm saying is they set up\nthe flood as a totally separate matter from the new sun, but just passed the\ntwo off as being codependent.\n\nIf this isn't new, let me know if it's covered somewhere so as to save\nbother. My search didn't turn it up, at any rate.\n\nPaul" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10878.72.171.0.142.1185228836.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-07-23T22:13:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Morality of the Hierogrammates", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90707231506l1e4945c2o5108359a199d8987@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I recently read the archive discussion about the theodicean aspect of\nBotNS,\nand the morality and necessity of the flood that accompanies the new sun.\nOne thing struck me, and if it's old hat, then I've not been thorough\nenough\nin reading the archives. That thing is the precipitous pace of the flood,\nwhich apparently takes Urth in a matter of days and surprises those at the\nHouse Absolute by the time that Severian shows up. A flood of Biblical\nproportions, if you will.\n\nNow, one thing that has been jokingly asked of that one, can be seriously\nasked of this: where does the water come from?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The continents are drowned, new continents rise where the oceans are, the\noceans move around. No new water required.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90707231522l4a5e1fe6n94e704a65a1b8882@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-07-23T22:22:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Morality of the Hierogrammates", "in_reply_to": "<10878.72.171.0.142.1185228836.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's fine, but it's about as difficult to explain sudden global tectonic\nshifts than it is to explain a flood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/23/07, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I recently read the archive discussion about the theodicean aspect of\nBotNS,\nand the morality and necessity of the flood that accompanies the new\nsun.\nOne thing struck me, and if it's old hat, then I've not been thorough\nenough\nin reading the archives. That thing is the precipitous pace of the\nflood,\nwhich apparently takes Urth in a matter of days and surprises those at\nthe\nHouse Absolute by the time that Severian shows up. A flood of Biblical\nproportions, if you will.\n\nNow, one thing that has been jokingly asked of that one, can be\nseriously\nasked of this: where does the water come from?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The continents are drowned, new continents rise where the oceans are, the\noceans move around. No new water required.\n\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8476d0320707231527r56f6b885s4bf6e5d4f48e89a3@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Bruce Hayles", "address": "brucehayles at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-07-23T22:27:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Morality of the Hierogrammates", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90707231522l4a5e1fe6n94e704a65a1b8882@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what the confusion is about. Baldanders says that the\nflood is caused by gravitational forces from the New Sun in Urth of\nthe New Sun XLII." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/23/07, Paul B wrote:\nThat's fine, but it's about as difficult to explain sudden global tectonic\nshifts than it is to explain a flood.\n\n\nOn 7/23/07, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I recently read the archive discussion about the theodicean aspect of\nBotNS,\nand the morality and necessity of the flood that accompanies the new\nsun.\nOne thing struck me, and if it's old hat, then I've not been thorough\nenough\nin reading the archives. That thing is the precipitous pace of the\nflood,\nwhich apparently takes Urth in a matter of days and surprises those at\nthe\nHouse Absolute by the time that Severian shows up. A flood of Biblical\nproportions, if you will.\n\nNow, one thing that has been jokingly asked of that one, can be\nseriously\nasked of this: where does the water come from?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The continents are drowned, new continents rise where the oceans are, the\noceans move around. No new water required.\n\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90707231546o21958f7fp59fbc82dac4a64b4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-07-23T22:46:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Morality of the Hierogrammates", "in_reply_to": "<8476d0320707231527r56f6b885s4bf6e5d4f48e89a3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right you are, I'd forgotten about that bit. That said, Baldanders seems to\nmean that the heat generated by a stronger gravitational pull would heat\nUrth and melt the water. Baldanders isn't likely to lie, but again it's\ncurious where that much water comes from.\n\nHe doesn't mention tectonic shifts, and I admit to not being physicist\nenough to challenge the idea, but it seems like gravitationally-motivated\nshifts would be even more catastrophic than what is described.\n(Incidentally, a change in centripetal force in newtonian mechanics would\ndrastically change the equilibrium orbits of the whole solar system)\n\nFurthermore, it's of possible interest that his scientific expertise has\nbeen supplied by the aliens, to a large extent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/23/07, Bruce Hayles wrote:\n\nI'm not sure what the confusion is about. Baldanders says that the\nflood is caused by gravitational forces from the New Sun in Urth of\nthe New Sun XLII.\n\nOn 7/23/07, Paul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's fine, but it's about as difficult to explain sudden global\ntectonic\nshifts than it is to explain a flood.\n\n\nOn 7/23/07, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I recently read the archive discussion about the theodicean aspect\nof\nBotNS,\nand the morality and necessity of the flood that accompanies the new\nsun.\nOne thing struck me, and if it's old hat, then I've not been\nthorough\nenough\nin reading the archives. That thing is the precipitous pace of the\nflood,\nwhich apparently takes Urth in a matter of days and surprises those\nat\nthe\nHouse Absolute by the time that Severian shows up. A flood of\nBiblical\nproportions, if you will.\n\nNow, one thing that has been jokingly asked of that one, can be\nseriously\nasked of this: where does the water come from?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The continents are drowned, new continents rise where the oceans are,\nthe\noceans move around. No new water required.\n\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8125.67.142.130.24.1185234999.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-07-23T23:56:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Morality of the Hierogrammates", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90707231522l4a5e1fe6n94e704a65a1b8882@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's this white hole moving through the solar system, see, before it\nhits the Old Sun. It's stellar sized gravity well causes the changes on\nUrth.\n\nWho knows (or cares, particularly) if the physics is right?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's fine, but it's about as difficult to explain sudden global tectonic\nshifts than it is to explain a flood.\n\nOn 7/23/07, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I recently read the archive discussion about the theodicean aspect of\nBotNS,\nand the morality and necessity of the flood that accompanies the new\nsun.\nOne thing struck me, and if it's old hat, then I've not been thorough\nenough\nin reading the archives. That thing is the precipitous pace of the\nflood,\nwhich apparently takes Urth in a matter of days and surprises those at\nthe\nHouse Absolute by the time that Severian shows up. A flood of\nBiblical\nproportions, if you will.\n\nNow, one thing that has been jokingly asked of that one, can be\nseriously\nasked of this: where does the water come from?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The continents are drowned, new continents rise where the oceans are,\nthe\noceans move around. No new water required.\n\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90707231709l474541e2pdfd123c3bfcdfe90@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-07-24T00:09:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Morality of the Hierogrammates", "in_reply_to": "<8125.67.142.130.24.1185234999.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As for who cares, perhaps Wolfe does.\nA theme of his is natural explanations for the supernatural, such as the\nmagic of Devil in the Forest, or the mystery of the Pelerine cathedral in\nBotNS.\nI contend that the feasibility of the flood is a deliberate puzzle. The\nevent that is the culmination of the whole byzantine process is not\nsomething to be hand-waved away by scifi pseudoscience in a book this\nserious. I think it's purposely something that cannot be explained by\nphysics in an endogenous system, but should be explained nonetheless.\n\nP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/23/07, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nThere's this white hole moving through the solar system, see, before it\nhits the Old Sun. It's stellar sized gravity well causes the changes on\nUrth.\n\nWho knows (or cares, particularly) if the physics is right?\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<10635.67.142.130.24.1185242094.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-07-24T01:54:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Morality of the Hierogrammates", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90707231709l474541e2pdfd123c3bfcdfe90@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for who cares, perhaps Wolfe does.\nA theme of his is natural explanations for the supernatural, such as the\nmagic of Devil in the Forest, or the mystery of the Pelerine cathedral in\nBotNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I contend that the feasibility of the flood is a deliberate puzzle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, you'll feel right at home here: this is pedant central.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90707232053g37c32c38rd6d3abfca6b4bdb6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-07-24T03:53:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Morality of the Hierogrammates", "in_reply_to": "<10635.67.142.130.24.1185242094.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now now, no need for hostility. I'm merely proposing a puzzle that I think\nis interesting. Perhaps it isn't, or it isn't even a puzzle at all, but it\nbears noting that your arguments, such as they've been, haven't convinced me\nof that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/23/07, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As for who cares, perhaps Wolfe does.\nA theme of his is natural explanations for the supernatural, such as the\nmagic of Devil in the Forest, or the mystery of the Pelerine cathedral\nin\nBotNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I contend that the feasibility of the flood is a deliberate puzzle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, you'll feel right at home here: this is pedant central.\n\n\n.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<46A5A6DA.3000601@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-07-24T07:14:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Morality of the Hierogrammates", "in_reply_to": "<8125.67.142.130.24.1185234999.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThere's this white hole moving through the solar system, see, before it\nhits the Old Sun. It's stellar sized gravity well causes the changes on\nUrth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the White Fountain is indeed a white hole, intended to undo the \neffect of the \"black beans\", it need not be on the order of a star in \ngravity well, only on the order of the beans' total. Also, being a white \nhole, it may have an inverted or otherwise unusual distribution of gravity.\n\nAs for the flood, a mass as small as the moon can cause considerable \ntides on the earth, so that the White Fountain can be 1% of earth''s \nmass, maybe smaller, depending on how close it comes.\n\n\"Additional\" water can come from wrecked dams and reservoirs, from the \nwreckage of Abaia's tidal power devices, and such. Even today, enough \nwater is kept from the ocean by man-made structures in the northern \nhemisphere to have a measureable effect on the earth's rotation; in a \nfew chilliads, who knows how much could be waiting to burst loose?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3096.72.171.0.142.1185264261.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-07-24T08:04:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Morality of the Hierogrammates", "in_reply_to": "<46A5A6DA.3000601@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems to me, though I couldn't quote chapter and verse, that there is a\nreference or more than one to the disruptive effects of the WF's gravity\nwell.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's this white hole moving through the solar system, see, before it\nhits the Old Sun. It's stellar sized gravity well causes the changes on\nUrth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the White Fountain is indeed a white hole, intended to undo the\neffect of the \"black beans\", it need not be on the order of a star in\ngravity well, only on the order of the beans' total. Also, being a white\nhole, it may have an inverted or otherwise unusual distribution of\ngravity.\n\nAs for the flood, a mass as small as the moon can cause considerable\ntides on the earth, so that the White Fountain can be 1% of earth''s\nmass, maybe smaller, depending on how close it comes.\n\n\"Additional\" water can come from wrecked dams and reservoirs, from the\nwreckage of Abaia's tidal power devices, and such. Even today, enough\nwater is kept from the ocean by man-made structures in the northern\nhemisphere to have a measureable effect on the earth's rotation; in a\nfew chilliads, who knows how much could be waiting to burst loose?\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90707240846s5d744b82sb455728949278e59@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-07-24T15:46:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Morality of the Hierogrammates", "in_reply_to": "<46A5A6DA.3000601@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But the thing is that according to Baldanders everything will get submerged,\nfor example mountainous Thrax will too (the two methods of escape being ship\n[maybe] and airship - from UotNS, ch LXII). If one makes the assumption\nthat Earth and Urth are the same, there simply doesn't seem to be enough\nwater on Earth to drown the Andes mountains.\n\nIf you assume Earth is Urth, then you can actually examine \"scientific\"\nBiblical flood literature (of which there's a surprisingly large amount),\nand there it's worth noting that no one has been able to suggest a\nscientific explanation for the flood, though not for lack of trying.\n\nIf Urth isn't Earth, then I suppose it's not a meaningful question to ask\nanymore.\n\nDoes Abaia really have tidal power devices? I have no idea what that guy is\ncapable of.\n\nFor the record, I'm perfectly fine with calling the white fountain a miracle\n- it, its creation, and movement, are not physically explainable What I'm\ntrying to get at is that the flood is also a \"miracle\", and the two aren't\ntied together by anything necessary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/24/07, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's this white hole moving through the solar system, see, before it\nhits the Old Sun. It's stellar sized gravity well causes the changes on\nUrth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the White Fountain is indeed a white hole, intended to undo the\neffect of the \"black beans\", it need not be on the order of a star in\ngravity well, only on the order of the beans' total. Also, being a white\nhole, it may have an inverted or otherwise unusual distribution of\ngravity.\n\nAs for the flood, a mass as small as the moon can cause considerable\ntides on the earth, so that the White Fountain can be 1% of earth''s\nmass, maybe smaller, depending on how close it comes.\n\n\"Additional\" water can come from wrecked dams and reservoirs, from the\nwreckage of Abaia's tidal power devices, and such. Even today, enough\nwater is kept from the ocean by man-made structures in the northern\nhemisphere to have a measureable effect on the earth's rotation; in a\nfew chilliads, who knows how much could be waiting to burst loose?\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<46A6E140.1030007@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-07-25T05:36:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Morality of the Hierogrammates", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90707240846s5d744b82sb455728949278e59@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B wrote:\nBut the thing is that according to Baldanders everything will get \nsubmerged, for example mountainous Thrax will too (the two methods of \nescape being ship [maybe] and airship - from UotNS, ch LXII). If one \nmakes the assumption that Earth and Urth are the same, there simply \ndoesn't seem to be enough water on Earth to drown the Andes mountains. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Baldanders may be taking the pessmistic, worst-case scenario that the \nFountain's tides will be strong enough to remake the land as well as the \n water. Or, Baldanders may be simply ignorant of the geophysical \nexactitudes, being primarily interested in researching more showy lost \nsciences." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Urth isn't Earth, then I suppose it's not a meaningful question to \nask anymore.\n\nDoes Abaia really have tidal power devices? I have no idea what that \nguy is capable of." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are notional, springing from discussions Mantiss and I had years \nago when he was writing a NEW SUN roleplaying game supplement. \nPresumably each of the great beasts have renewable resources native to \ntheir abode that figuratively if not literally feed off of the earth, \nthat would be threatened by the coming of the New Sun. You'd think Abaia \nwould welcome the flood from the New Sun, but there must be some danger \nto his/its interests for him/it to oppose it. Ergo, tidal power. (though \n being hung up to rot on the dry land of a newborn continent must be an \nunpleasant end as well._\n\nLikewise, Erebus presumably has geothermal stations around his eponymous \nvolcano on the Antarctic ice.\n\n( http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/newsun/ for those interested in a \nplain-English gazetteer of the New Sun setting. )" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }