Subject: (urth) C.S. Lewis's influence

From: Matthew Groves <matthewalangroves at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:29:57 +0000

In the interest of stirring up some discussion on the too-quiet list...

I recently read C.S. Lewis's "Ransom trilogy" for the first time
(comprising Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous
Strength).  I was struck by how much of Lewis's cosmology winds up in
Wolfe's works.  It's hard to imagine that Wolfe wasn't thinking of the
eldila and the Oy?resu when he wrote about the Heirodules and the
Heirogrammates.  The comparison isn't perfect, primarily because the
eldila and Oy?resu seem to have been created as angels by God, but
clearly Tzadkiel is, in some sense, the Oyarsa of Urth.

Wolfe's temporal aspect of the three planets Skuld, Urth, and
Verthandi, may have been influenced by Lewis's conception of a
temporal order to the solar system (the outer planets are older and
the inner planets are newer).  In Lewis you also have the idea of the
Earth, as a planetary body -- not merely humanity as a fallen creature
-- as the object of cleansing and renewal.

There are other similarities to recurring themes in Wolfe's works,
such as the beast-men of Malacandra (compare them to the animal tribes
of "Tracking Song") and the attempts to synthesize Christianity, the
Greek myths, and Arthurian legends.  Perhaps all this is not news to
any of you, but I just hadn't seen a lot of discussion of Lewis's
influence, and I was shocked by the sense of familiarity, especially
in reading Out of the Silent Planet and Perelandra.

Matt G.

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:45:34 +0000

> Strength).

Lucky you! I read them in jr. high school, and missed a lot. While that
gave me much to catch on rereads, I never had the experience of a
reasonably-informed first reading.

> I was struck by how much of Lewis's cosmology winds up in
> Wolfe's works.

H'mmm. While I am certainly not prepared to deny any influence of Lewis
upon Wolfe, I am inclined to think that it's partly a matter of co-influence
-- i.e., Wolfe's being influenced by Chesterton, whom Lewis also greatly
admired -- among other things ... especially ...

> It's hard to imagine that Wolfe wasn't thinking of the

Ummm: I think not-so-much. The Oy?rsu (congrats on getting the Old
Solar plural right; most people just say "Oyarsas") hearken back -- as
much in Lewis's fiction does -- to the medieval. Specifically, to the
concept of "planetary intelligences," angels whose "job" it was to
guide the planets through their stately dance to the Music of the Spheres.
Lewis was fascinated by this concept and wrote at least one longish
poem about the planetary angels.

Wolfe's ideas here are (I think) a bit more idiosyncratic. While I imagine
he was probably aware of the concept of the planetary intelligences,
I don't think he had them in mind in creating the Hiero*s. And Tzadkiel
is certainly *NOT* equivalent to Lewis's Oyarsa of Urth; that is Satan.

> -- as the object of cleansing and renewal.

These things all hearken back to the medieval, and Wolfe clearly
consulted a fair amount of medieval -- specifically, Byzantine --
history in creating the world of the New Sun. Again, not to deny that
there is any influence from CSL to GW, but to urge caution where
common sources may be involved.

> in reading Out of the Silent Planet and Perelandra.

This is fascinating to me, for I grew up with Lewis, had read the
trilogy several times before tSotT came out, and I quite honestly
never felt that sense of familiarity in going the other direction.

Again, not to deny your perception.
-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant
-----
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer
http://www.danehyoakes.com
I am miserable, he is miserable,
We are miserable.
Can't we have a party? Would he rather have a party?

---

From: Matthew Groves <matthewalangroves at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 03:06:34 +0000

I seem to have overstated my case, thereby losing my point.  I don't
really mean to say that Wolfe adopts Lewis's cosmology, but I do want
to say that there are more resemblances between the Ransom trilogy and
some of Wolfe's works than can be accounted for solely by
co-influence.  (I *want* to say that, but I can't quite, not having
read G.K. Chesterton or a lot of other things both Wolfe and Lewis
might have read.)  Again, it's probably not too surprising that Wolfe,
as a Christian sf writer, would be influenced by Lewis (Wolfe even
names a character in "The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories"
after Lewis's protagonist, Ransom).  But whereas I've seen some
discussion about the influence of H.G. Wells, H.P. Lovecraft, and
J.R.R. Tolkien, I haven't seen a lot of discussion of the particular
manifestations of C.S. Lewis's influence.

I think the construction of a celestial hierarchy of Heiros for a
science-fictional setting is one such manifestation.  As to the
particulars of Lewis's angelic space beings versus Wolfe's in the New
Sun books, in most ways they are obviously very different.

The main point: C.S. Lewis refers to classical, medieval and Arthurian
sources; he embeds these into a new, fictional cosmology that is
informed by his contemporaneous scientific understanding and by his
Christian beliefs; and then he uses it to write sf books.  Before I
read Lewis, I hadn't known anyone but Wolfe to have done this.  Wolfe
is more rigorous and casts his net even wider in terms of his sources,
but surely Lewis must have been a model for Wolfe in this regard.
Also they both like beast men.

Matt G.

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From: Mo Holkar / UKG <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 07:59:58 +0000

>Also they both like beast men.

Don't we all?

I wonder whether Island of Doctor Death in particular represents a 
playing-out of tension in Wolfe's influences between Wells and Lewis. 
Lewis supposedly admired Wells's imagination but despised his 
morality, and I think felt his own SF to be in some sense a counter 
to Wells's work. Can we see Wolfe as the synthesis of this dialectic?

Mo

# ~ # ~ #

WolfeWiki
http://www.holkar.net/pmwiki/

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:20:05 +0000

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes writes: 

>  grew up with Lewis, had read the

Ditto, and ditto 

I'm sure Wolfe has read Lewis, but I don't see any sort of direct influence. 

What I do see is that Wolfe in the New/Long/Short sun books is writing in 
the same genre as Lewis in his SF trilogy - religious science fiction that 
presupposes the objective reality of angelic beings and of god - and that 
this is a genre so sparsely exploited today that one may see linkages of a 
type that are not there. 

hartshorn 

http://www.thenightland.co.uk 

01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545

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From: Michael Straight <mfstraight at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:25:44 +0000

Matt,

You're not the only one who has seen connections between Wolfe and
Lewis.  One particular standout to me that I wrote about on the list a
while back is this scene from Perelandra:

Ransom, the protagonist, is in a situation where it seems the Devil
himself (or his representative) is trying to do a Very Bad Thing and
Ransom wonders why God seems to be allowing it...

  "Had Hell a prerogative to work wonders?  Why did Heaven work none?
   ...he was forced to perceive that his own coming to Perelandra was
   at least as much of a marvel as the Enemy's.  That miracle on the
   right side, which he had demanded, had in fact occured.  He himself
   was the miracle...If the issue lay in [God's] hands, Ransom and the
   Lady *were* those hands.  The fate of a world really depended on how
   they behaved in the next few hours" (Perelandra, p. 140-142).

This seems so close to Silk's formulation of the Outsider's
revelation, "I am to receive no help, because I am help" that I'm
inclined to believe it must have been an influence on Wolfe.

And note that this theme keeps popping up in Wolfe.  There's the bit
in Soldier of Arete where Latro receives a similar response when he
remarks on the possible danger of the task given him by one of the
godesses: "If a child could have done it, I would not
have chosen you."

The other, minor connection I saw was that (especially in Nightside
when I thought he
was a villain), Remora's speech patterns reminded me a whole lot of
Withers from _That Hideous Strength_.

Rostrum