{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4906", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4906, "subject": "Setr's 1000 Year Reich", "messages": 7, "voices": 3, "first": "2007-09-12T04:46:48+00:00", "last": "2007-09-15T02:42:41+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20070912044648.DD1D7DA84D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-09-12T04:46:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Setr's 1000 Year Reich", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----\nHash: SHA1\n\nJust thought I'd toss this in to see if anybody can find an answer\nbetter than I can ...\n\nWhen Setr/Garsecg meets Art/Able, he speaks of his coup in Aelfrice\nas dating from 1,000 (Mythgathr) years in the past. On the other\nhand, there is nothing to suggest that his brother Arnthor or their\nfather gained the Mythgathr crown in any particularly exceptional\ncircumstances.\n\nFor instance, there's nothing to suggest (a) that their father\nUthor suddenly reappeared in Mythgathr after a 1000 year absence,\nor (b) that Arnthor has held the throne for some exceptionally long\nspan of time, or (c) that he was ancient when he ascended to it, or\n(d) that Setr and Arnthor have different fathers, or ...\n\nSo how does this work?\n\nPut a gun to my head and I'll pick (a), that in fact\nArnthor/Morcaine/Uthor did reappear in Mythgathr after a 1000 year\nor whatever absence. The barest little hint of that is Uri telling\nArt/Able that A & M could not really have been nursed to any great\nextent in Aelfrice, despite stories to the contrary, because\notherwise they'd be much younger than they are now. But if they had\nactually spent 1,000 Mythgathr-years in Aelfrice, I guess they\ncould easily now be in their 20's or 30's or maybe 40's in their\nown time-lines, which is what they appear to be.\n\nBut I don't really believe it.\n\n\n-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----\nNote: This signature can be verified at https://www.hushtools.com/verify\nCharset: UTF8\nVersion: Hush 2.5\n\nwkYEARECAAYFAkbnbzgACgkQBctFqdKBBTu3igCeKEsOWEvekxM5qQZOThr5KlKy3+UA\noI568QynVLLPitWl4rXJEz95Xxyn\n=4isN\n-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001401c7f65f$d3038de0$39cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-09-13T23:42:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Setr's 1000 Year Reich", "in_reply_to": "<20070912044648.DD1D7DA84D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nWhen Setr/Garsecg meets Art/Able, he speaks of his coup in Aelfrice\nas dating from 1,000 (Mythgathr) years in the past." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you have the citation for that figure?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20070914093001.4BD3BC3820@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-09-14T09:29:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Setr's 1000 Year Reich", "in_reply_to": "<001401c7f65f$d3038de0$39cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:42:57 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\nAndrew wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When Setr/Garsecg meets Art/Able, he speaks of his coup in \nAelfrice\nas dating from 1,000 (Mythgathr) years in the past." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you have the citation for that figure?\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yup, a couple of places:\n\n- Knight, end of Ch.22. Garsecg to Art, as they first come to the \ntower & before Able has guessed that he is Setr. Garsecg has told \nAble that Setr made the Aelf build it & gather weapons there, \nbefore some of the Aelf drove him off. Nevertheless, Setr returns \nfrom time to time. Then: \"We have been pillaging his trove a \nthousand years ...\"\n\n- Knight, beginning of Ch.26. Garsecg to Art, talking about the \nAelf-war which drove Setr out. \"A thousand of your years have \npassed since that war ...\"\n\nSome other bits & pieces:\n\n- In Ch.22, Garsecg says to Art: \"The king's [Anthor's] royal \nfather lay with a woman of my race ... Of their union, three \nchildren were born.\" A single union, resulting in triplets? If so, \ncan't solve the puzzle by assuming that Uthor sired Setr a long \ntime before Arnthor (although Uri does tell Art in Wizard Ch.34 \nthat Setr was the oldest child).\n\n- But we do know that Setr's birth occured at least 40-50 Mythgathr \nyears before his meeting with Art - simply because he took Mag when \nAble was an infant, and Berthold is 30-40 years older than when \nAble left. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20070914134111.1664BC381C@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-09-14T13:41:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Setr's 1000 Year Reich", "in_reply_to": "<20070914093001.4BD3BC3820@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 19:29:54 +1000 thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\nOn Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:42:57 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "When Setr/Garsecg meets Art/Able, he speaks of his coup in \nAelfrice\nas dating from 1,000 (Mythgathr) years in the past." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Do you have the citation for that figure?\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yup, a couple of places:\n\n- Knight, end of Ch.22. Garsecg to Art, as they first come to the \ntower & before Able has guessed that he is Setr. Garsecg has told \nAble that Setr made the Aelf build it & gather weapons there, \nbefore some of the Aelf drove him off. Nevertheless, Setr returns \nfrom time to time. Then: \"We have been pillaging his trove a \nthousand years ...\"\n\n- Knight, beginning of Ch.26. Garsecg to Art, talking about the \nAelf-war which drove Setr out. \"A thousand of your years have \npassed since that war ...\"\n\nSome other bits & pieces:\n\n- In Ch.22, Garsecg says to Art: \"The king's [Anthor's] royal \nfather lay with a woman of my race ... Of their union, three \nchildren were born.\" A single union, resulting in triplets? If so, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "can't solve the puzzle by assuming that Uthor sired Setr a long \ntime before Arnthor (although Uri does tell Art in Wizard Ch.34 \nthat Setr was the oldest child).\n\n- But we do know that Setr's birth occured at least 40-50 \nMythgathr \nyears before his meeting with Art - simply because he took Mag \nwhen \nAble was an infant, and Berthold is 30-40 years older than when \nAble left. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another data point comes from Beel, who says he's a younger son of \nUthor's younger brother. (Wizard, Ch. 48)\n\nArt calls Beel \"middle aged\" - say 50. Say he was born when his \nfather was 30. Say that the age difference between Uthor and Beel's \nfather was 10 years. That would put Uthor's birth 90 years in the \npast. In any case, surely not much more than 100 years. So it seems \nthat Setr was probably born quite a lot less than 100 Mythgathr-\nyears ago. \n\nSetr was lying about the 1000 years, then. I wonder why?\n\nOn another point, it seems likely to me that he started stocking \nwomen on the top of tower soon after completing it - 50 years or so \nbefore Art meets him. This would answer the question of why he \nstopped taking women there: it's because he was driven out by Dsiri \nand other \"loyal\" Aelf soon afterwards, and it is no longer a \npermanent base for him.\n\nBy the same token, it explains why the persecutions described by \nMag in her suicide letter have stopped by the time Art arrives. His \nplans were thwarted by the \"loyal\" Aelf, and Dsiri et al have \nassumed the role of gods for the peasants in that region, partly by \ndefault - and perhaps also to prevent the peasants from going back \nto worshipping dragons." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c7f70a$ea902f80$2bc85a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-09-14T20:07:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Setr's 1000 Year Reich", "in_reply_to": "<20070914134111.1664BC381C@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew quoted:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- Knight, beginning of Ch.26. Garsecg to Art, talking about the\nAelf-war which drove Setr out. \"A thousand of your years have\npassed since that war ...\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Setr was lying about the 1000 years, then. I wonder why?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There was no reason for him to lie about it, and I don't think he did. The\ntower was built by the Aelf and had its roots in Aelfrice. The apparent\nage/time discrepancies are explained by the difference in the rate of time\nflow between any two levels of \"reality\". The lower the world level, the\nslower time passes relative to the level immediately above it. Thus, a\nthousand years in Mythgarthr may well have passed during the natural\nlife-span of a being in Aelfrice, just as Able spent twenty years in Skai\nwhile his absence was hardly noticed in Mythgarthr.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20070914224221.D2D04C381C@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-09-14T22:42:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Setr's 1000 Year Reich", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c7f70a$ea902f80$2bc85a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 06:07:40 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\n\nThere was no reason for him to lie about it, and I don't think he \ndid. The\ntower was built by the Aelf and had its roots in Aelfrice. The \napparent\nage/time discrepancies are explained by the difference in the rate " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of time\nflow between any two levels of \"reality\". The lower the world \nlevel, the\nslower time passes relative to the level immediately above it. \nThus, a\nthousand years in Mythgarthr may well have passed during the \nnatural\nlife-span of a being in Aelfrice, just as Able spent twenty years \nin Skai\nwhile his absence was hardly noticed in Mythgarthr." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's the argument:\n\n- The Aelf built the tower under Setr's compulsion.\n- Setr was the son of Uthor.\n- Uthor was born 100+/- Mythgathr-years ago.\n- Therefore Setr was born (probably) less than 100 Mythgathr-years \nago.\n- Therefore the tower was built less than 100 M-years ago.\n- Therefore Setr lied about the 1000 M-years.\n\nPresumably, Setr did not want Art to realize that Garsecg & Setr \nwere the same being. I guess the lie was part of the deception \nprogram. But Art saw through Garsecg almost immediately, which must \nhave been quite shockin for Setr." } ] }, { "message_id": "<46EB46A1.3080806@mindspring.com>", "from": { "name": "Henry Eissler", "address": "henryeissleriii at mindspring.com" }, "date": "2007-09-15T02:42:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Setr's 1000 Year Reich", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c7f70a$ea902f80$2bc85a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n just as Able spent twenty years in Skai\nwhile his absence was hardly noticed in Mythgarthr.\n\n-Roy\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Um, I know this is just a silly semantic quibble, and you didn't \nmean it this way, but I don't think it's fair to say his absence was \nhardly noticed.\nBrief, yes. Hardly noticeable, perhaps. But I seem to recall some to-do.\n\n ---H" } ] } ] }