Subject: (urth) Setr's 1000 Year Reich

From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 04:46:48 +0000

Just thought I'd toss this in to see if anybody can find an answer
better than I can ...

When Setr/Garsecg meets Art/Able, he speaks of his coup in Aelfrice
as dating from 1,000 (Mythgathr) years in the past. On the other
hand, there is nothing to suggest that his brother Arnthor or their
father gained the Mythgathr crown in any particularly exceptional
circumstances.

For instance, there's nothing to suggest (a) that their father
Uthor suddenly reappeared in Mythgathr after a 1000 year absence,
or (b) that Arnthor has held the throne for some exceptionally long
span of time, or (c) that he was ancient when he ascended to it, or
(d) that Setr and Arnthor have different fathers, or ...

So how does this work?

Put a gun to my head and I'll pick (a), that in fact
Arnthor/Morcaine/Uthor did reappear in Mythgathr after a 1000 year
or whatever absence. The barest little hint of that is Uri telling
Art/Able that A & M could not really have been nursed to any great
extent in Aelfrice, despite stories to the contrary, because
otherwise they'd be much younger than they are now. But if they had
actually spent 1,000 Mythgathr-years in Aelfrice, I guess they
could easily now be in their 20's or 30's or maybe 40's in their
own time-lines, which is what they appear to be.

But I don't really believe it.

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:42:57 +0000

Andrew wrote:
>as dating from 1,000 (Mythgathr) years in the past.

Do you have the citation for that figure?

-Roy

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From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:29:54 +0000

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:42:57 +1000 "Roy C. Lackey" 
>Do you have the citation for that figure?

Yup, a couple of places:

- Knight, end of Ch.22. Garsecg to Art, as they first come to the 
tower & before Able has guessed that he is Setr. Garsecg has told 
Able that Setr made the Aelf build it & gather weapons there, 
before some of the Aelf drove him off. Nevertheless, Setr returns 
from time to time. Then: "We have been pillaging his trove a 
thousand years ..."

- Knight, beginning of Ch.26. Garsecg to Art, talking about the 
Aelf-war which drove Setr out. "A thousand of your years have 
passed since that war ..."

Some other bits & pieces:

-  In Ch.22, Garsecg says to Art: "The king's [Anthor's] royal 
father lay with a woman of my race ... Of their union, three 
children were born." A single union, resulting in triplets? If so, 
can't solve the puzzle by assuming that Uthor sired Setr a long 
time before Arnthor (although Uri does tell Art in Wizard Ch.34 
that Setr was the oldest child).

- But we do know that Setr's birth occured at least 40-50 Mythgathr 
years before his meeting with Art - simply because he took Mag when 
Able was an infant, and Berthold is 30-40 years older than when 
Able left.

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From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:41:04 +0000

>Able was an infant, and Berthold is 30-40 years older than when 

Another data point comes from Beel, who says he's a younger son of 
Uthor's younger brother. (Wizard, Ch. 48)

Art calls Beel "middle aged" - say 50. Say he was born when his 
father was 30. Say that the age difference between Uthor and Beel's 
father was 10 years. That would put Uthor's birth 90 years in the 
past. In any case, surely not much more than 100 years. So it seems 
that Setr was probably born quite a lot less than 100 Mythgathr-
years ago. 

Setr was lying about the 1000 years, then. I wonder why?

On another point, it seems likely to me that he started stocking 
women on the top of tower soon after completing it - 50 years or so 
before Art meets him. This would answer the question of why he 
stopped taking women there: it's because he was driven out by Dsiri 
and other "loyal" Aelf soon afterwards, and it is no longer a 
permanent base for him.

By the same token, it explains why the persecutions described by 
Mag in her suicide letter have stopped by the time Art arrives. His 
plans were thwarted by the "loyal" Aelf, and Dsiri et al have 
assumed the role of gods for the peasants in that region, partly by 
default - and perhaps also to prevent the peasants from going back 
to worshipping dragons.

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:07:40 +0000

>>passed since that war ..."

and wrote:
[snip]
>Setr was lying about the 1000 years, then. I wonder why?

There was no reason for him to lie about it, and I don't think he did. The
tower was built by the Aelf and had its roots in Aelfrice. The apparent
age/time discrepancies are explained by the difference in the rate of time
flow between any two levels of "reality". The lower the world level, the
slower time passes relative to the level immediately above it. Thus, a
thousand years in Mythgarthr may well have passed during the natural
life-span of a being in Aelfrice, just as Able spent twenty years in Skai
while his absence was hardly noticed in Mythgarthr.

-Roy

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From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 22:42:15 +0000

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 06:07:40 +1000 "Roy C. Lackey" 
<rclackey at stic.net> wrote:
>age/time discrepancies are explained by the difference in the rate 

>of time

Here's the argument:

- The Aelf built the tower under Setr's compulsion.
- Setr was the son of Uthor.
- Uthor was born 100+/- Mythgathr-years ago.
- Therefore Setr was born (probably) less than 100 Mythgathr-years 
ago.
- Therefore the tower was built less than 100 M-years ago.
- Therefore Setr lied about the 1000 M-years.

Presumably, Setr did not want Art to realize that Garsecg & Setr 
were the same being. I guess the lie was part of the deception 
program. But Art saw through Garsecg almost immediately, which must 
have been quite shockin for Setr.

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From: Henry Eissler <henryeissleriii at mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 02:42:41 +0000

Roy C. Lackey wrote:
>  just as Able spent twenty years in Skai
    Um, I know this is just a silly semantic quibble, and you didn't 
mean it this way, but I don't think it's fair to say his absence was 
hardly noticed.
Brief, yes.  Hardly noticeable, perhaps.  But I seem to recall some to-do.

    ---H