{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4907", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4907, "subject": "Slow Children at Play", "messages": 6, "voices": 3, "first": "2007-09-12T16:54:45+00:00", "last": "2007-09-14T04:49:46+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "JBarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-09-12T16:54:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Slow Children at Play", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Urthers --\n \nHave we discussed \"Slow Children at Play\" on this list? I looked in the \narchives and couldn't find anything, but perhaps I missed it. There are \nSPOILERS in what follows.\n \n \nSPOILER ALERT\n \n \nSPOILER ALERT\n \n \nSPOILER ALERT\n \nIt seems to me that Mark may be an angel (\"I c-came from the sky ... Yes! \nF-from the sky! I f-fell, oh, f-fell so many, many. I h-had wings\"). As that \nquotation indicates, he would be a fallen angel, though he doesn't appear to \nbe evil here. \n \nBut if Mark is an angel and Gene is a man, what exactly is Joe (Mark says \"I \nc-came from the sky ... J-Joe out of the ground\"). Is he in some sense an \nanimal?\n \nThe light turns out to be a fire with a man standing in front of it (\"in \nit,\" Gene says, the way we speak of \"the Man in the Moon\"). But when the man \nturns, he reveals, \"not his back, but an entire new being: a live griffin, \neagle-clawed and many-winged.\" Furthermore, \"that figure was horned like a \nViking or a devil; and as I looked, it roared like a lion.\"\n \nThe description sounds terrifying. But what is a griffin? A griffin is a \nGOOD creature in mythology, and as Borges points out, was seen as a symbol of \nJesus Christ because it had two natures. It was both a lion and an eagle. \nThis particular griffin isn't just a griffin, though. It also has the face of \na man and horns like a Viking or a devil ... or an OX (and of course an ox \nis where a Viking got his horns).\n \nWhat has characteristics of an ox, a lion, an eagle, and a man? A cherub. \nIn the Bible, cherubim (the plural of \"cherub\") aren't chubby babies. They \nare the creatures that were fashioned on top of the ark of the covenant, which \nis God's footstool. God is described as enthroned above the cherubim.\n \nAnd when Ezekiel sees God, the creatures he is enthroned above are cherubim. \n Each of them have four faces: \"As for the likeness of their faces, each had \nthe face of a man; each of the four had the face of a lion on the right \nside; each of the four had the face of an ox on the left side; and each of the \nfour had the face of an eagle\" (Ezek. 1:10).\n \nIt seems to me, then, that the creature Gene sees is a cherub. (He's also \nremarkably like a sphinx in some ways, but then sphinxes seem to me to combine \nthe same sorts of animals that cherubim do.) Now factor in that the cherub \n\"still stood like a sentry before its fire, which appeared to revolve \nmajestically now, grown even larger and more brilliant.\"\n \nIsn't this pretty much straight from Genesis 3:24, where God drives Adam and \nEve from the Garden, \"and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of \nEden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree \nof life\"? Here, as in \"Slow Children at Play,\" we have cherubim standing \nguard and we have a flame that \"turned every way\" (\"revolved\" is a possible \ntranslation of the Hebrew).\n \n \nJoe later tells Gene that Mark plays and that he plays and that last night \nGene played with them. I don't know exactly what that means, but I wonder \nabout any connection between it and Eden. \n \n\nThe cherubim tells the three that he will bring them again to the sun, but \nthat it will not be for Gene's sake and certainly not for Mark's (and he looks \ndisdainfully at Mark, which again suggests to me that he may be a fallen \nangel), and not even for Joe's (and he speaks to Joe \"more kindly,\" which again \nsuggests to me that Joe isn't human or angelic and may therefore be ... an \nanimal?). It appears to me that Joe and Mark get to enter the Garden and \nplay, but Gene, seeing the cherubim's other faces, flees. He is not (yet) \nallowed to enter into the Garden. You have to become like a little child in order \nto enter the kingdom, Jesus says.\n \nAnd what's the significance of the poem at the end? What's the source, too? \n It appears to indicate that we are to read the story, not as a horror story \n(though that's how Gene, the narrator, tells it, because for him it is \nhorrific and he thinks he's had a psychotic episode), but as something good and \npeaceful. The play of the \"slow children\" is part of the cosmic dance and is a \ngood thing.\n \nOne more comment: What's particularly fascinating about this story is the \nlink between it and \"The Arimaspian Legacy.\" The house in which Gene, Joe, and \nMark live seems at first to be in our world, but it's a city in which \neverything to the south is in ruins AND it's the same house in which David \nArimaspian stepped through a window to his death, as Gene tells us.\n \nThere's a load of stuff hidden in the next line: \"And so I remained where I \nwas, studying, or rather, pretending to study, G. T. Griffith's _Mercenaries \nof the Hellenistic World_; though when I thought of David, the nominal 'best \nfriend' of my childhood, the author's name became anathema to me and I covered \n it (for it appeared at the top of the page) with one hand.\"\n \nThinking about David makes the name of G. T. Griffith anathema to Gene. \nWhy? Perhaps because Griffith had something to do with David's death? Is it \npossible that \"G. T. Griffith\" actually is Gene himself, and that he had \nsomething to do with the death of his \"nominal\" (N.B.!) \"best friend\"? Or what?\n \nAnyway, I throw this out for your consideration. Nutria, if you're still on \nthe list, I could use your insights, in particular.\n \nJohn\n \n \n \n \n%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%\nJohn Barach (541) 531-2906\nPastor, Reformation Covenant Church (CREC)\n706 Beekman Avenue\nMedford, OR 97501\n_http://barach.us_ (http://barach.us) \n_http://rccso.com_ (http://rccso.com) \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "JBarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-09-12T17:15:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Slow Children at Play", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 9/12/2007 9:56:15 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, \nJBarach at aol.com writes:\n\nThe cherubim tells the three that he will bring them again to the sun, but \nthat it will not be for Gene's sake and certainly not for Mark's (and he looks \ndisdainfully at Mark, which again suggests to me that he may be a fallen \nangel), and not even for Joe's (and he speaks to Joe \"more kindly,\" which again \nsuggests to me that Joe isn't human or angelic and may therefore be ... an \nanimal?). It appears to me that Joe and Mark get to enter the Garden and \nplay, but Gene, seeing the cherubim's other faces, flees. He is not (yet) \nallowed to enter into the Garden. You have to become like a little child in order \nto enter the kingdom, Jesus says.\n\n\n\nIn this connection, I should also point out that the narrator, Gene, is \nreminded of the three Magi following a star and coming to Christ, which (I should \nthink) is a pretty good hint about the meaning of their quest. \n \nNote, too, that Joe's attempt to dive through the window (i.e., commit \nsuicide) is an attempt to reach Paradise, but that it's not the right way, and so \nMark rescues him. \n \nIt's interesting to me, too, to see how Wolfe has grouped the stories in \nInnocents Aboard. Like \"Slow Children at Play,\" \"The Old Woman Whose Rolling \nPin Is the Sun\" is also about the winter solstice, the darkest time of the year.\n \nAnd like \"The Friendship Light, \"Slow Children at Play\" was, according to \nWolfe's Introduction, \"based in part on an actual light -- a mysterious light, \nin this case -- which I saw once and have never seen again.\" It sounds from \nthat statement that both of them were based in part on the same light. At \nany rate, they have the light theme in common, except that in \"The Friendship \nLight\" the light's flickering seems to attract demons and results in evil, \nwhereas the beacon in \"Slow Children\" draws men, angels, and ... whatever Joe \nis, in a way that is intended to be good (though not understood as such by \nGene).\n \nJohn\n \n \n \n \n%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%\nJohn Barach (541) 531-2906\nPastor, Reformation Covenant Church (CREC)\n706 Beekman Avenue\nMedford, OR 97501\n_http://barach.us_ (http://barach.us/) \n_http://rccso.com_ (http://rccso.com/) " } ] }, { "message_id": "<001f01c7f660$1e579ca0$39cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-09-13T23:45:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Slow Children at Play", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Barach wrote:\nBut if Mark is an angel and Gene is a man, what exactly is Joe (Mark says\n\"I\nc-came from the sky ... J-Joe out of the ground\"). Is he in some sense an\nanimal?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so. I believe Joe is a man, which is why he looked to Gene for\nconfirmation that they would both eventually die. Joe came \"out of the\nground\" only in the sense that Adam did. That's the why of the \"Dust to\ndust\" comment made by Gene.\n\nKeep in mind that Wolfe *never* retells a story the same way he first heard\nit. The Eden story seems to be mixed up here with the Christmas story. Mark\nmay well be a fallen angel, but he is a lesser angel than Lucifer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems to me, then, that the creature Gene sees is a cherub. (He's also\nremarkably like a sphinx in some ways, but then sphinxes seem to me to\ncombine\nthe same sorts of animals that cherubim do.) Now factor in that the\ncherub\n\"still stood like a sentry before its fire, which appeared to revolve\nmajestically now, grown even larger and more brilliant.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't pretend to understand what point Wolfe intended to make with this\nstory. Like you, I can see the creature before the fire as an angel somehow\nconcerned with the imminent anniversary of the birth of Christ; and Mark,\nGene and Joe as latter-day Magi. But the red flames and the comparison of\nthe horned figure to a Viking or a devil say something else. Or so I see it.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0709132108g3988b5a5p9934d91bdf4fb3e9@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-09-14T04:08:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Slow Children at Play", "in_reply_to": "<001f01c7f660$1e579ca0$39cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks to John for the thoughtful post on Slow Children at Play.\nMaybe you could post some of this interpretation on the WolfeWiki.\n\nI think I may have the answer to one of your questions, or rather, you\nhave the answer yourself. There are two possibilities as to why Gene\ncovers the name G. T. Griffith (who is a real author). The more\nprobable answer is that \"Griffith\" reminds Gene of \"griffin,\" and, as\nwe learn in \"The Arimaspian Legacy,\" he has dreams of griffins chasing\nafter David. The less probable answer (though one does not exclude\nthe other) is that \"Griffith\" is David's real last name. (In \"The\nArimaspian Legacy,\" we learn that although \"David\" is the narrator's\nfriend's name, \"Arimaspian\" is not.)\n\nThe quote at the end is about angels. The source, De Mundo, is\nprobably some theological manuscript that Wolfe would know.\n\nBut the story is definitely (but not only) a horror story. Reminds me\nof Poe a little." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "JBarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-09-14T04:46:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Slow Children at Play", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0709132108g3988b5a5p9934d91bdf4fb3e9@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 9/13/2007 9:08:53 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, \nmatthewalangroves at gmail.com writes:\n\nI think I may have the answer to one of your questions, or rather, you\nhave the answer yourself. There are two possibilities as to why Gene\ncovers the name G. T. Griffith (who is a real author). The more\nprobable answer is that \"Griffith\" reminds Gene of \"griffin,\" and, as\nwe learn in \"The Arimaspian Legacy,\" he has dreams of griffins chasing\nafter David. The less probable answer (though one does not exclude\nthe other) is that \"Griffith\" is David's real last name. (In \"The\nArimaspian Legacy,\" we learn that although \"David\" is the narrator's\nfriend's name, \"Arimaspian\" is not.)\n\n\n\nWhat's really funny is that when I thought of \"The Arimaspian Legacy,\" I \nreally had \"The Haunted Boardinghouse\" in mind. Isn't there a boy that goes \nthrough a window in that one, too? No wonder I didn't make the right \nconnections.\n \nYes, David in \"The Arimaspian Legacy\" is pursued by griffins. Griffith \nreminds Gene of griffins, and that's why he covers up the name. I'm pretty sure \nthat's correct. (Funny, too: I thought of looking up the book by G. T. \nGriffith, but I didn't. If I had, I would have discovered that he's a real \nauthor).\n \nSo David is pursued by griffins and then Gene runs into a griffin/cherub at \nthe gate of Paradise, where the revolving flame is (Gen. 3). Interesting. \nBut in \"The Arimaspian Legacy,\" we're told that an \"Arimaspian\" is a one-eyed \nthief who is out to steal the gold that the griffin guards, which is the sun \nand nuclear fission. In \"Slow Children,\" the griffin-man (cherub) tells the \nthree who come seeking that the fire is indeed the sun.\n \nMore thought is needed....\n \nJohn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "JBarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-09-14T04:49:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Slow Children at Play", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 9/13/2007 9:08:53 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, \nmatthewalangroves at gmail.com writes:\n\nBut the story is definitely (but not only) a horror story. Reminds me\nof Poe a little.\n\n\n\nYes ... but it's a horror story *from the point of view of the narrator*. \nI'm not sure his point of view is correct. His point of view isn't, for \ninstance, the point of view of the \"slow children\" who are playing. Is it \npossible that we are to see them as correct in their child-likeness and the scholar \nGene to be incorrect in his \"adult\"-ness, so that what strikes them as play \nstrikes him as horror and so that the griffin appears gracious to them, giving \nwhat they don't deserve, but that, in spite of his graciousness, his \nappearance terrifies Gene?\n \nWhy is Gene so afraid of griffins that he covers the name Griffith because \nit's too close to \"griffin\"? \n \nJohn" } ] } ] }