{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4914", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4914, "subject": "The poor Aelf", "messages": 19, "voices": 8, "first": "2007-09-25T21:33:59+00:00", "last": "2007-10-03T21:56:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<002c01c7ffbb$cc0cb2e0$15ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-09-25T21:33:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor Aelf", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've probably said this before, but I'll say it again to drive home the\npoint that the Neoplatonism-based theory of upward mobility in a\nhierarchical system doesn't apply to Wolfe's Seven Worlds cosmology in TWK.\n\nHaving no souls, the Aelf are by definition amoral. Because they lack moral\nagency, they are constitutionally incapable of 'bettering' themselves by\nthought, word or deed. Even the abstract concept has no meaning for them.\nThey can do nothing to raise themselves by their own moral bootstraps. They\nnot only don't have the boots; they don't even have feet to put in them.\n\nThey are nevertheless expected, by the religious principles stated in TWK,\nto worship the beings of the next-higher level, humans. If they do not act\n'rightly', when they die they will cease to exist and turn back into the\nnatural trash from whence they came. If they do 'right' and worship humans,\nthey get to kiss human ass, and when they die they cease to exist and turn\nback into trash. Let's see; if I were an Aelf, which path should I take to\nthe same end, oblivion? What incentive would I have to choose one path over\nthe other, even assuming that I had the moral wherewithal to choose? Who\nwould have the balls to upbraid me for not electing to brown-nose my way to\noblivion?\n\nThe Aelf are screwed, it's not their fault, and there is nothing they can do\nabout it. And the dragons should worship this trash?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-09-25T22:17:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor Aelf", "in_reply_to": "<002c01c7ffbb$cc0cb2e0$15ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 25, 2007, at 4:33 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nThe Aelf are screwed, it's not their fault," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's Kulili's fault, isn't it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and there is nothing they can do\nabout it. And the dragons should worship this trash?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The dragons should worship Kulili. I forget who was the driving \npower behind the war against Kulili, but everything else I remember \nmakes me think it must have been Setr.\n\nSome of the Aelf would join in because Kulili is the one who created \nthem from trash, to live as trash. Should the Aelf have worshipped \nKulili? She was their creator." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1028638566.20070926013711@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanislaus", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2007-09-25T23:37:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor Aelf", "in_reply_to": "<002c01c7ffbb$cc0cb2e0$15ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello Roy," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tuesday, September 25, 2007, 11:33:59 PM, you wrote:\nI've probably said this before, but I'll say it again to drive home the\npoint that the Neoplatonism-based theory of upward mobility in a\nhierarchical system doesn't apply to Wolfe's Seven Worlds cosmology in TWK." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Having no souls, the Aelf are by definition amoral. Because they lack moral\nagency, they are constitutionally incapable of 'bettering' themselves by\nthought, word or deed. Even the abstract concept has no meaning for them.\nThey can do nothing to raise themselves by their own moral bootstraps. They\nnot only don't have the boots; they don't even have feet to put in them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They are nevertheless expected, by the religious principles stated in TWK,\nto worship the beings of the next-higher level, humans. If they do not act\n'rightly', when they die they will cease to exist and turn back into the\nnatural trash from whence they came. If they do 'right' and worship humans,\nthey get to kiss human ass, and when they die they cease to exist and turn\nback into trash. Let's see; if I were an Aelf, which path should I take to\nthe same end, oblivion? What incentive would I have to choose one path over\nthe other, even assuming that I had the moral wherewithal to choose? Who\nwould have the balls to upbraid me for not electing to brown-nose my way to\noblivion?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Aelf are screwed, it's not their fault, and there is nothing they can do\nabout it. And the dragons should worship this trash?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, since they are even worse. \n\nIn the Neoplatonic system the return is open only to the creatures with immortal soul, of which the lowest are men. \n\nThe rest is pure matter. I don't know whether Plotinus ever engaged in apocalyptics, but most similar systems (Stoics, Kabala) had a cyclical universe, periodically expanding from God, and then being destroyed and absorbed by him.\n\nSo the Aelf can wait until the end of the world, when they will be destroyed in flame and absorbed by the One.\n\nAnd why worship those above them? Because those above are stronger. In the Neoplatonic system good equals strong. Everything good flows from the above - beauty, law and strength. By following the example from above Aelf will become as strong and as happy as it is possible for them - not very much, since they are trash.\n\nAs I said, the Neoplatonic system doesn't incline towards any pity for those below." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Best regards,\n Stanislaus mailto:sbocian at poczta.fm\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\nPokaz innym kto tu rzadzi!\nKliknij >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1bbc" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20070925234950.A95AF2E023@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-09-25T23:46:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor Aelf", "in_reply_to": "<1028638566.20070926013711@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 08:17:53 +1000 Matthew King \n wrote:\n\nThe dragons should worship Kulili. I forget who was the driving \npower behind the war against Kulili, but everything else I \nremember \nmakes me think it must have been Setr." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, the Aelf first tried to defeat her on their own, and when \nthat didn't work, they called in the dragons. They tried again, \nunder Setr, and failed once more. I assume that Setr's goal in this \nwas mainly to demoralize the Aelf further, and make them more \namenable to his control - I doubt that he really expected them to \nwin. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some of the Aelf would join in because Kulili is the one who \ncreated \nthem from trash, to live as trash. Should the Aelf have \nworshipped \nKulili? She was their creator." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the Aelf's message to Arnthor (I think it's there) they say that \nthe dragons are supposed to worship them, which is something I \nnever really understood. \n\nOn Ray's point about what the Aelf get from worshipping humans, I \nguess there's some kind of answer in Toug's healing of Uri (Baki?). \n\n\nBut surely any \"upwards\" worship is really just a proxy for worhsip \nof the Most High God; this, I think, is made pretty clear at the \nend of Wizard. \n\nHumans can surely aspire to more than just an afterlife of \ncarousing & fighting in the halls of the Valfather; it's obvious \n(to me, at any rate) that Able's eventual fate will be to reach the \nEmpyrean. He hopes to speak of what Kulili showed him to \"one \nhigher than the Valfather\"; Michael summons him to service with a \nlord who is surely higher than Skai. Etc etc.\n\nAnd I take Dsiri as a sign that Aelf can share in this as well. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-09-27T17:42:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor Aelf", "in_reply_to": "<002c01c7ffbb$cc0cb2e0$15ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/25/07, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nThey are nevertheless expected, by the religious principles stated in TWK,\nto worship the beings of the next-higher level, humans. If they do not act\n'rightly', when they die they will cease to exist and turn back into the\nnatural trash from whence they came. If they do 'right' and worship humans,\nthey get to kiss human ass, and when they die they cease to exist and turn\nback into trash. Let's see; if I were an Aelf, which path should I take to\nthe same end, oblivion? What incentive would I have to choose one path over\nthe other, even assuming that I had the moral wherewithal to choose? Who\nwould have the balls to upbraid me for not electing to brown-nose my way to\noblivion?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You seem to take the point of view that the purpose of worship is to\nflatter your way into a happy afterlife. I think the Neo-Platonic\nview is that the Aelf should worship humans because they'll be better\noff that way right now. That by refusing to worship and devote\nthemselves to that which is higher and better, they just make\nthemselves miserable and unfulfilled. It is an intrinsic rather than\nan extrinsic reward.\n\nWolfe's critique of this worldview seems to be that beings at any\nlevel would be happier (in the Aristotelian sense) if they were to aim\nhigher still. If humans were to set their aspirations, their ideals,\ntheir worship higher than the Valfather, they might achieve something\ngreater than the knightly virtues.\n\nRostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-09-27T18:16:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor Aelf", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You seem to take the point of view that the purpose of worship is to\nflatter your way into a happy afterlife. I think the Neo-Platonic\nview is that the Aelf should worship humans because they'll be better\noff that way right now. That by refusing to worship and devote\nthemselves to that which is higher and better, they just make\nthemselves miserable and unfulfilled. It is an intrinsic rather than\nan extrinsic reward.\n\nWolfe's critique of this worldview seems to be that beings at any\nlevel would be happier (in the Aristotelian sense) if they were to aim\nhigher still. If humans were to set their aspirations, their ideals,\ntheir worship higher than the Valfather, they might achieve something\ngreater than the knightly virtues.\n\nRostrum" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am not sure I can buy into the Wizard Knight as a treatise on metaphysics.\n\nI suppose this mixes up the macro/microcosm a bit, but I thought that what this inverted order was really supposed to illuminate was the glorification of our baser drives and desires within the individual. And particularly Able's worship of Disiri as a sort of glorification of Romantic love in all its more degenerate forms. Able has love, but it is fixated on all the wrong things and there is, at bottom, nothing (but garbage) once you're able to see through its surface glamour. The interesting twist is of course that Able is able (heh) to uplift this love to something genuine in the end.\n\nAt least, I really hope that's what's going on there: that Disiri represents Able's inner love (or ideal thereof), and not the actual object of that love. I find the assumption that you can \"redeem\" someone, change their nature by sort of imposing your own will, quite patronizing and not necessarily a great idea (I keep thinking of Larry's attempt to \"fix\" that girl in The Razor's Edge).\n\nIn any event I read WK on sort of a double level as a story in which the protagonist needs to not only overcome (and restore to their proper order in the soul) the darker instincts and desires that drive him, but also in a way reconcile himself to their existence - not to suppress them but to integrate and uplift them. I think you can see this process going on over the course of the books." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001001c8013f$3d88c4c0$e0ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-09-27T19:47:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor Aelf", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rostrum quoted and wrote:\nOn 9/25/07, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They are nevertheless expected, by the religious principles stated in\nTWK,\nto worship the beings of the next-higher level, humans. If they do not\nact\n'rightly', when they die they will cease to exist and turn back into the\nnatural trash from whence they came. If they do 'right' and worship\nhumans,\nthey get to kiss human ass, and when they die they cease to exist and\nturn\nback into trash. Let's see; if I were an Aelf, which path should I take\nto\nthe same end, oblivion? What incentive would I have to choose one path\nover\nthe other, even assuming that I had the moral wherewithal to choose? Who\nwould have the balls to upbraid me for not electing to brown-nose my way\nto\noblivion?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You seem to take the point of view that the purpose of worship is to\nflatter your way into a happy afterlife. I think the Neo-Platonic\nview is that the Aelf should worship humans because they'll be better\noff that way right now. That by refusing to worship and devote\nthemselves to that which is higher and better, they just make\nthemselves miserable and unfulfilled. It is an intrinsic rather than\nan extrinsic reward." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That might, in theory (Neo-Platonic or other system), be valid for humans --\nI won't debate it because it is not germane to my argument. I argued that it\nwas not true for the Aelf in TWK. The essence of my argument was in the\nparagraph immediately before the one you quoted. I won't cite dictionary\ndefinitions of \"soul\", \"moral\" or \"worship\", because I know you know them.\nMy argument runs like this:\n\nBecause the soul is the immortal arbiter (in religious theory) of behavior,\nany being that does not have a soul lacks the fundamental criterion for\ndistinguishing the difference between 'right' and 'wrong' conduct, as such\nconduct is defined by any given moral system. In TWK, right conduct is\ndefined, in part, as the worship by beings at a given level of the class of\nbeings in the next higher level. It is a textual given that the Aelf have no\nsouls, therefore they cannot be held accountable (morally) for their\nconduct, whether such conduct be worship or anything else. As I said, they\nare amoral." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe's critique of this worldview seems to be that beings at any\nlevel would be happier (in the Aristotelian sense) if they were to aim\nhigher still. If humans were to set their aspirations, their ideals,\ntheir worship higher than the Valfather, they might achieve something\ngreater than the knightly virtues." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That might be true for humans, but where are such aspirations provided for\nin the text? Very few common people will even attain Skai, yet they are\nexpected to worship the beings of Skai. If they can't reach the fifth level,\nwhat hope have they for achieving higher? I see no evidence of a campaign to\ncircumvent the established rules of the game and appeal directly to the Top.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-09-28T18:07:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor Aelf", "in_reply_to": "<001001c8013f$3d88c4c0$e0ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/27/07, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nBecause the soul is the immortal arbiter (in religious theory) of behavior,\nany being that does not have a soul lacks the fundamental criterion for\ndistinguishing the difference between 'right' and 'wrong' conduct, as such\nconduct is defined by any given moral system. In TWK, right conduct is\ndefined, in part, as the worship by beings at a given level of the class of\nbeings in the next higher level. It is a textual given that the Aelf have no\nsouls, therefore they cannot be held accountable (morally) for their\nconduct, whether such conduct be worship or anything else. As I said, they\nare amoral." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK. But what I was saying is that advising the Aelf to worship the\nhigher beings need not have a moral component. A dog might be better\noff living in obedience to a kind farmer than running wild and feral.\nWe wouldn't think of the wild dog as evil, but we might think it\nwretched, and if we felt compassion for it, we might try to tame it.\n\nBut to take a completely different tack, maybe we need to question\nthis idea that the Aelf have no souls. How do we know that? Who told\nthem that? In the Sun books, Wolfe is constantly giving us robots,\nanimals, vampire leeches, etc. that people treat as soul-less, but\nturn out to show evidence of a soul. And in many of those cases, the\nsouls seem somehow derived from contact with human beings. So maybe\nthe truth is that the Aelf have no souls if they are untethered to the\nhuman beings above them through whom they would derive a soul?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That might be true for humans, but where are such aspirations provided for\nin the text? Very few common people will even attain Skai, yet they are\nexpected to worship the beings of Skai. If they can't reach the fifth level,\nwhat hope have they for achieving higher? I see no evidence of a campaign to\ncircumvent the established rules of the game and appeal directly to the Top." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought that was the implication of Able being visited by Michael.\nThat Able is being called to aspire higher than Skai, and perhaps lead\nothers higher as well.\n\nRostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-09-28T18:16:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor Aelf", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/27/07, Chris wrote:\nI am not sure I can buy into the Wizard Knight as a treatise on metaphysics." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it is either. I was trying to explicate the inner logic\nof the fictional metaphysics within the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...I thought that what this inverted order was really supposed to illuminate was the >glorification of our baser drives and desires within the individual. And particularly Able's >worship of Disiri as a sort of glorification of Romantic love in all its more degenerate forms. >Able has love, but it is fixated on all the wrong things and there is, at bottom, nothing (but >garbage) once you're able to see through its surface glamour. The interesting twist is of >course that Able is able (heh) to uplift this love to something genuine in the end." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In any event I read WK on sort of a double level as a story in which the protagonist needs to not only overcome (and restore to their proper order in the soul) the darker instincts and desires that drive him, but also in a way reconcile himself to their existence - not to suppress them but to integrate and uplift them. I think you can see this process going on over the course of the books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And I agree with what you're saying here (although I might object to\nsaying this has nothing to do with metaphysics!)\n\nRostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-09-28T18:51:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor Aelf", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrum said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I agree with what you're saying here (although I might object to> saying this has nothing to do with metaphysics!) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can accept that there's a connection to it, but I feel that a focus on that connection is kind of looking the wrong direction when it comes to interpreting the books. I think that in many cases it can tangle things up more than is really necessary; for example looking at the Aelf as the same order of entity as a human person (just with some different distinctive properties, etc).\n\nThis is perhaps going out on a limb but often I am very tempted to say that there is only one actual *person* in this entire series, albeit that person (or parts of that person) is to be found in a plethora of different characters." } ] }, { "message_id": "<841255657.20070928210820@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanislaus", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2007-09-28T19:08:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor Aelf", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello Michael,\n\nFriday, September 28, 2007, 8:07:42 PM, you wrote:\n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That might be true for humans, but where are such aspirations provided for\nin the text? Very few common people will even attain Skai, yet they are\nexpected to worship the beings of Skai. If they can't reach the fifth level,\nwhat hope have they for achieving higher? I see no evidence of a campaign to\ncircumvent the established rules of the game and appeal directly to the Top." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought that was the implication of Able being visited by Michael.\nThat Able is being called to aspire higher than Skai, and perhaps lead\nothers higher as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In Neoplatonism there is the so called principle of mediation, which seems (and \"seem\" is the operative world) to operate in Mythgarth. According to it, to put it simply, you are only able to contact being from the next higher level. To contact anything higher you need a mediator. Eg Michael cannot contact Able until he becomes one of the gods of Skai etc.\n\nI say it \"appears\" to operate, because this particular principle is a bit dubious from a Christian point of view, and it is quite possible that there are exception to it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Best regards,\n Stanislaus mailto:sbocian at poczta.fm\n\n\n-----------------R--E--K--L--A--M--A-----------------\nLepsze wiadomosci z kraju i z zagranicy.\nNie wierzysz? Sprawdz - http://wiadomosci.interia.pl/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-09-28T19:33:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor Aelf", "in_reply_to": "<841255657.20070928210820@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/28/07, Stanislaus wrote:\nIn Neoplatonism there is the so called principle of mediation, which seems (and \"seem\" is the operative world) to operate in Mythgarth. According to it, to put it simply, you are only able to contact being from the next higher level. To contact anything higher you need a mediator. Eg Michael cannot contact Able until he becomes one of the gods of Skai etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But doesn't Able meet Michael well before he becomes a Skai god?\n\nRostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0709281343k3bd87c4n52dea067eef58699@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-09-28T20:43:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor Aelf", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In Neoplatonism there is the so called principle of mediation, which seems (and \"seem\" is the operative world) to operate in Mythgarth. [...] Eg Michael cannot contact Able until he becomes one of the gods of Skai etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But doesn't Able meet Michael well before he becomes a Skai god?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wasn't addressed, but Yes. Even if it weren't so, there is of\ncourse the constant contact between Sir Able the Overcyn and various\nAelf, not to mention the denizens of Muspel and lower. Strict\nmediation appears not to obtain in the seven worlds.\n\nMatt G." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001201c8021d$277befc0$91c95a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-09-28T22:15:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor Aelf", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0709281343k3bd87c4n52dea067eef58699@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rostrum wrote:\nBut to take a completely different tack, maybe we need to question\nthis idea that the Aelf have no souls. How do we know that? Who told\nthem that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was Able who delivered the info (WIZARD, p-46), but it seems to be common\nknowledge. Its validity is apparently corroborated by Able's view of Disiri\nwhile wearing the magic helmet. The Aelf are granted very long natural lives\nin compensation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the Sun books, Wolfe is constantly giving us robots,\nanimals, vampire leeches, etc. that people treat as soul-less, but\nturn out to show evidence of a soul. And in many of those cases, the\nsouls seem somehow derived from contact with human beings. So maybe\nthe truth is that the Aelf have no souls if they are untethered to the\nhuman beings above them through whom they would derive a soul?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This was discussed in the last quarter of '05. Disiri is the only Aelf to\nreceive a soul (if she did) we are shown in the text. Able's blood *seemed*\nto be the medium. Baki got Toug's blood, but I don't see that she gained a\nsoul by it. The only differences I can see are love and Able's status as a\ngod. If there is a rational explanation of this Aelf/soul business, I think\nit has to be largely in that chapter four.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<138264533.20070929004644@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanislaus", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2007-09-28T22:46:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor Aelf", "in_reply_to": "<001201c8021d$277befc0$91c95a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20070929/3d014a7f/attachment.htm " } ] }, { "message_id": "<3128.67.142.130.32.1191024395.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-09-29T00:06:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor Aelf", "in_reply_to": "<138264533.20070929004644@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stanislaus,\n\nWhere is *.fm?\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20070929073700.8E97FC3821@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-09-29T07:36:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor Aelf", "in_reply_to": "<3128.67.142.130.32.1191024395.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 08:15:56 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\nRostrum wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But to take a completely different tack, maybe we need to \nquestion\nthis idea that the Aelf have no souls. How do we know that? Who " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "told\nthem that?\n\nIt was Able who delivered the info (WIZARD, p-46), but it seems to " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "be common\nknowledge. Its validity is apparently corroborated by Able's view \nof Disiri\nwhile wearing the magic helmet. The Aelf are granted very long \nnatural lives\nin compensation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, to be precise, Able only says that Aelf spirits are mortal, \nwhereas human spirits are immortal. I guess it may be reasonable to \nassume that a mortal spirit doesn't count as a \"soul\", in the sense \nyou intend, in this universe - but the point is debatable. \n\nI think one of the questions in the background for many of Wolfe's \nbooks is: \"Where's Jesus & what difference will he make?\". The \nheroes are sometimes kind of clunky Jesus-prototypes, dimly \nforeshadowing the real McCoy. Able's little personal salvation \neffort, driven by his personal little love, prefigures the \nsalvation of all creatures which will be driven by all-embracing \ndivine love - etc etc etc.\n\nWhy Jesus hasn't impinged on Mythgathr so far - dunno!\n\nBut something like that is IMO the only way of making sense of the \nentirely valid points you raise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In the Sun books, Wolfe is constantly giving us robots,\nanimals, vampire leeches, etc. that people treat as soul-less, \nbut\nturn out to show evidence of a soul. And in many of those cases, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the\nsouls seem somehow derived from contact with human beings. So \nmaybe\nthe truth is that the Aelf have no souls if they are untethered \nto the\nhuman beings above them through whom they would derive a soul?\n\nThis was discussed in the last quarter of '05. Disiri is the only \nAelf to\nreceive a soul (if she did) we are shown in the text. Able's blood " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*seemed*\nto be the medium. Baki got Toug's blood, but I don't see that she \ngained a\nsoul by it. The only differences I can see are love and Able's \nstatus as a\ngod. If there is a rational explanation of this Aelf/soul \nbusiness, I think\nit has to be largely in that chapter four." } ] }, { "message_id": "<11251893.20071003224945@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanislaus", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2007-10-03T20:49:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor Aelf", "in_reply_to": "<3128.67.142.130.32.1191024395.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello brunians," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Saturday, September 29, 2007, 2:06:35 AM, you wrote:\nStanislaus," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where is *.fm?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've no idea. In this case it stands for Frequency Modulation, of all things. \n\nhttp://www.columbia.edu/kermit/postal.html#index\n\nIt appears to mean: Federated States of Micronesia " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Best regards,\n Stanislaus \n\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\nJak skompromitowac Wisniewskiego? \nZobacz >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1be7" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7656.72.171.0.146.1191448609.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-10-03T21:56:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor Aelf", "in_reply_to": "<11251893.20071003224945@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hello brunians,\n\nSaturday, September 29, 2007, 2:06:35 AM, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Stanislaus," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where is *.fm?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've no idea. In this case it stands for Frequency Modulation, of all\nthings.\n\nhttp://www.columbia.edu/kermit/postal.html#index\n\nIt appears to mean: Federated States of Micronesia" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's what I thought it meant.\n\nBut you aren't actually there, no? You are in Poland.\n\n\nBest,\n\nJosh\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--\nBest regards,\n Stanislaus\n\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\nJak skompromitowac Wisniewskiego?\nZobacz >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1be7" } ] } ] }