{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4916", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4916, "subject": "The poor dragons", "messages": 6, "voices": 3, "first": "2007-10-02T19:46:40+00:00", "last": "2007-10-04T05:46:40+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<000c01c8052c$f75805a0$85cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-10-02T19:46:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor dragons", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thinking about the amoral Aelf and the problems attendant on their\nproblematic position in a hierarchical cosmology between men and dragons\nleads logically to some other difficulties. It stands to reason that\ndragons, native to an even lower level, are also amoral and without an\neternal spirit. Otherwise, how could beings with souls be expected to\nworship amoral, soulless, animated debris? What benefit could they possibly\nderive from such worship, intrinsic or otherwise? What could the Aelf, given\ntheir nature, possibly do in their capacity as gods to or for the dragons\nthat the dragons would find beneficial?\n\nWhat of Setr, who was somehow half human? Was he morally culpable for\nanything? If No, then the epic struggle against him is diminished to the\nlevel of a struggle against a particularly dangerous snake or rabid animal,\nneither of which bear any responsibility for any harm done by them to men.\nIf he is morally neutral, then he is just a bogeyman, a cardboard embodiment\nof something that can't really be called Evil because it lacks the moral\ncomponent associated with Lucifer. If Yes, if he had a human soul, what\nreasonable hope had he for salvation, apart from divine grace, a concept I\nsee no provision for in Wolfe's Seven Worlds cosmology? Did he owe reverence\nto the Overcyn or to the Aelf?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071002212008.CEB1922820@mailserver9.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-10-02T21:20:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor dragons", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c8052c$f75805a0$85cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 05:46:40 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote, inter alia:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... divine grace, a concept I\nsee no provision for in Wolfe's Seven Worlds cosmology" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree with that. When Able transforms Dsiri, he does it in the \npresence of a Valfather whom the magic helmet reveals to be \"bright \nshadow\". I'm sure that the one true God is present behind the \nValfather aspect, and Able here is acting as the agent of divine \ngrace. \n\nAnyway, I think it'd be pretty amazing for Wolfe to construct a \ncosmos with absolutely no provision for divine grace, especially \none which appears to share the same Heaven with ours. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c8057d$5de1f740$57cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-10-03T05:22:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor dragons", "in_reply_to": "<20071002212008.CEB1922820@mailserver9.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nOn Wed, 03 Oct 2007 05:46:40 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\"\n wrote, inter alia:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "... divine grace, a concept I\nsee no provision for in Wolfe's Seven Worlds cosmology" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I disagree with that. When Able transforms Dsiri, he does it in the\npresence of a Valfather whom the magic helmet reveals to be \"bright\nshadow\". I'm sure that the one true God is present behind the\nValfather aspect, and Able here is acting as the agent of divine\ngrace." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My whole sentence was: \"If Yes, if he [Setr] had a human soul, what\nreasonable hope had he for salvation, apart from divine grace, a concept I\nsee no provision for in Wolfe's Seven Worlds cosmology?\"\n\nI was speaking of salvation, the salvation of a being with a soul, by divine\ngrace. I didn't say that God could not act in the world(s). In consequence\nof Able giving her his blood, Disiri became a human woman and thereby gained\na soul. With a soul, she then had a *chance* at salvation, like any other\nhuman. Merely having a soul does not guarantee entry to Heaven.\n\nAble may have been God's agent for making Disiri human, but Able was not the\nagent for her salvation, if that should turn out to be her lot. That is the\njob of a redeemer. As you wrote a few days ago, \"Why Jesus hasn't impinged\non Mythgathr so far - dunno!\" I don't know either, which is why I said it\nwas \"a concept I see no provision for in Wolfe's Seven Worlds cosmology.\"\n\nIf Wolfe believes that salvation is by grace alone (RC Church doctrine), and\nthat men cannot influence the outcome (Pelagian heresy), then what is a body\nin the middle worlds supposed to do?\n\nEven if Setr did have a human soul, he was set up to fail. If he had a human\nsoul and worshipped the Aelf, he was guilty of violating the religious\ndictum to worship upward. As a dragon, he was compelled to worship the Aelf.\nEither way, he was in violation of the First Commandment, if there was such\na thing in the Seven Worlds.\n\nIf TWK had been written by someone other than Wolfe, I could write all these\nreligious issues off as just background for a rip-roaring fantasy story. But\nit isn't a rip-roaring story and it *was* written by Wolfe. What was his\nreligious message?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<242276865.20071003224613@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanislaus", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2007-10-03T20:46:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor dragons", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c8052c$f75805a0$85cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello Roy," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tuesday, October 2, 2007, 9:46:40 PM, you wrote:\nThinking about the amoral Aelf and the problems attendant on their\nproblematic position in a hierarchical cosmology between men and dragons\nleads logically to some other difficulties. It stands to reason that\ndragons, native to an even lower level, are also amoral and without an\neternal spirit. Otherwise, how could beings with souls be expected to\nworship amoral, soulless, animated debris? What benefit could they possibly\nderive from such worship, intrinsic or otherwise? What could the Aelf, given\ntheir nature, possibly do in their capacity as gods to or for the dragons\nthat the dragons would find beneficial?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What of Setr, who was somehow half human? Was he morally culpable for\nanything?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A few points:\n1) The original inhabitant of the Aelfs' world was Kulili, and she should be worshipped by the inhabitants of the dragon's world.\n2) Are we certain that the dragons were originally inhabitants of that world? We know that the Lowest God came from above. In addition, beings from so low level should be weak. Dragons are not weak, nor stupid. They have too many human characteristics.\n\nI wonder whether they are not similar to Osterlings, only more so?\n\n\n -- \nBest regards,\n Stanislaus \n\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\nJak skompromitowac Wisniewskiego? \nZobacz >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1be7" } ] }, { "message_id": "<467394891.20071003230003@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanislaus", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2007-10-03T21:00:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor dragons", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c8057d$5de1f740$57cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello Roy,\n\nWednesday, October 3, 2007, 7:22:12 AM, you wrote:\n...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Wolfe believes that salvation is by grace alone (RC Church doctrine), and\nthat men cannot influence the outcome (Pelagian heresy), then what is a body\nin the middle worlds supposed to do?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nThis is in fact the Calvinist doctrine, which is quite different from Catholic one. BTW, \"sola gratia\" is quite well known as the shibboleth of Protestantism.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_gratia\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther\nhttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11604a.htm\n\nPelagians taught that men DO NOT need grace at all, and that they can save themselves by their own effort. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Best regards,\n Stanislaus mailto:sbocian at poczta.fm\n\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\nStworz swoja w?asna telewizje internetowa!\nSprawdz >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1bdc" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c80649$fb2d7a20$47ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-10-04T05:46:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The poor dragons", "in_reply_to": "<467394891.20071003230003@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stanislaus wrote:\nPelagians taught that men DO NOT need grace at all, and that they can save\nthemselves by their own effort.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know that. That's why (partly) the RC Church declared it was heresy. The\nother part was that the Pelagians denied the idea of Original Sin. I'll\nstate the basic idea of the heresy, because I want to use it as a possible\nlogical explanation of the religious problems I've been harping about in\nTWK. (There is also a NEW SUN angle, but I'll save that for another time.)\n\nThe Pelagians held that Adam's progeny were not contaminated by his sin.\nWithout Original Sin, there was no need for a universal redeemer. Jesus was\nseen as a good role model, but was not necessary for individual salvation.\n(It's easy to see why the Church frowned on these ideas.) Man could put\nhimself in good standing with God by leading a good life, leading to\nsalvation.\n\nDidn't Wolfe say, somewhere, that in TWK he wanted to show a society where\nknights existed but where that society was not underpinned by Christianity?\nAnyway, that seems to be the de facto situation in TWK. If the description\nof the origins of the Seven Worlds given in the fourth chapter of WIZARD is\nvalid, then there was no Creation (at least not the Genesis variety; we are\ntold that men were raised up from animals), no Garden, no Adam, no Original\nSin. There is no evidence that Jesus ever existed in Mythgarthr, or ever\nwould. It's the Pelagian heresy brought to life in fiction.\n\nEverything and everyone below Elysion has something wrong with it, in\nvarying degrees, simply because they are something apart from God. Beings\nare bad, evil, wrong or whatever because they are imperfect. Beings are\njudged on the basis of their own actions, not what someone else did.\n\nMy problem, and I think many other readers have the same problem, is reading\nthe book with certain Judeo-Christian preconceptions getting in the way of\ncomprehending what Wolfe actually wrote. If you look at it this way, if you\ncan dismiss those preconceptions and accept Wolfe's Seven Worlds at face\nvalue, then a lot of the religious questions simply go away.\n\nI don't know why he wrote the story this way, but I think he did.\n\n-Roy" } ] } ] }