{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4917",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 4917,
    "subject": "Hierogrammates",
    "messages": 2,
    "voices": 2,
    "first": "2007-10-04T06:05:01+00:00",
    "last": "2007-10-04T15:15:14+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<002901c8064c$8374a500$47ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Roy C. Lackey",
        "address": "rclackey at stic.net"
      },
      "date": "2007-10-04T06:05:01+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Hierogrammates",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Since I touched on the subject of the Pelagian heresy: Peter Wright, in\nATTENDING DAEDALUS, contended that the Hierogrammates had their own alien\nagenda, that they were not manipulating mankind on Urth at the behest of the\nIncreate. In simplistic terms; they were bad guys.\n\nIf they were bad guys, then Severian was just their puppet, the destruction\nof Urth and the birth of Ushas were just necessary steps in furtherance of\ntheir own selfish ends. It had happened before and would happen again. Ushas\nwas not a new beginning for mankind that would lead to some sort of\nreconciliation with the Increate, it was not a break in the pattern of\nrepeating universal cycles. The remnants of mankind from Urth would, in\nUshas, develop (with the guidance of the Hierodules and the Hierogrammates)\ninto the Hieros, who would then cruelly fashion the Hierogrammates.\n\nIt's not hard to find evidence in the text of the Urth Cycle to counter the\nidea that Wolfe intended the Hierogrammates to be seen as bad guys. I've\npointed out such evidence in past discussions. Still, if the Hierogrammates\nare good guys, they seem to be aggressively exercising the Pelagian belief\nthat man can achieve salvation by his own efforts, without need of a\nredeemer.\n\n-Roy"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<47050382.4030605@io.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Jeff Wilson",
        "address": "jwilson at io.com"
      },
      "date": "2007-10-04T15:15:14+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Hierogrammates",
      "in_reply_to": "<002901c8064c$8374a500$47ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nIt's not hard to find evidence in the text of the Urth Cycle to counter the\nidea that Wolfe intended the Hierogrammates to be seen as bad guys. I've\npointed out such evidence in past discussions. Still, if the Hierogrammates\nare good guys, they seem to be aggressively exercising the Pelagian belief\nthat man can achieve salvation by his own efforts, without need of a\nredeemer."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "There might be an admixture of Teilhard de Chardin in that through aeons \nof effort, mankind achieves salvation by producing/becoming the \ngrace-giving Godhead. The cyclic nature of Briah allows this to happen \nin the middle, rather than at the end of time.\n\nOr it could be that the Hierogrammates were intended to appear to have \nsome of the duality of Clarke's Overlords."
        },
        {
          "kind": "sig",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}