{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4924", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4924, "subject": "Questions about BNS", "messages": 16, "voices": 8, "first": "2007-11-14T19:26:21+00:00", "last": "2007-11-16T14:56:43+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492A62C8E@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "from": { "name": "Eric Ortlund", "address": "eortlund at briercrest.ca" }, "date": "2007-11-14T19:26:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions about BNS", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Friends,\n\nMy name is Eric and I teach Hebrew and Old Testament at a seminary in\nCanada. I picked up Strange Travellers several years ago while living\noverseas and was entranced, especially with \"To the Seventh.\" Then it\nwas on to the Wizard Knight, which I have now read four times, each new\ntime with increasing relish. I'm glad I did WK first, because I might\nhave been overwhelmed otherwise! Anyway, all this is to say I'm\nrelatively new to Wolfe (but he's quickly become my favorite author) and\nto this list - so if the questions I'm asked have already been\ndiscussed, just let me know!\n\nAnyway, I'm on my third time through the Book of the New Sun and there\nare some questions that keep niggling at me. Anyone care to comment on\nthese?\n\n1) When Severian enters the shop of Agilus and Agia, Agilus is wearing a\nmask that makes him look like a corpse. No detail in Wolfe is\ninconsequential: so why is that there? Foreshadowing of Agilus' fate? \n\n2) When Severian and Agia are in the Jungle Garden, the apparently\ntravel in time and space (the story about Father Inire's mirrors\napparently prepares the reader for this) to a missionary couple in the\njungle. Can someone please explain to me what on earth the native is\ntalking about on pg. 131? The woman in the couple reads from\nDeuteronomy 34 - about Moses looking into the promised land but not\nbeing able to enter it - and then the native tells a story about a fish\nwho apparently is a woman. I'm totally at a loss here; what is the\nconnection? What is the naked man talking about? How does this\ncontribute to the story? \n\n3) What about the vision Dorcas and Severian see when they're leaving\nNessus of the huge palace (pg 181)? What is it of? I vaguely remember\nthat the conversation which Severian has with the woman who gives him\ntea at the fair in Saltus might hint that it is somehow identified with\nthe tent of the Pelerines. Is that on the right track?\n\n4) At the end of Shadow of the Torturer, there's a disturbance at the\nhuge gate of Nessus; we only learn in Severian's dream in the next book\nabout the five soldiers turning people aside. Severian seems so\ncircumspect in describing this that I'm suspicious he knows something\nwhich he isn't telling us. Is this incident in the book significant?\nOr is it just that Severian doesn't know why the soldiers are there?\n\n5) One more and I'll stop - when Severian nearly drowns in the Gyoll\nnear the beginning of Shadow, he sees a woman's face; later, during his\ndream while he's sleeping next to Baldanders, the brides of Abia hint\nthat they came to see him at the Gyoll - so that's who he sees. Two\nquestions: who is the woman crying that he hears - Thecla? Also, when\nhis friends pull him out, he says that he saw the dead Malrubius - and a\nboatman asks if Malrubius is a woman. I know this is really small, but,\nlike I said, no detail is insignificant; why would the boatman say this?\nIs there anything here?\n\nThanks again - Eric\n\n-------------------------\nInvite the next generation of students to consider Briercrest College and Seminary. Visit www.briercrest.ca/refer. \n-------------------------\nThis e-mail may contain confidential and privileged proprietary material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, or distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, or authorized to receive the information from the recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this message." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370711141349p44fa3f5ey82ab302d076ffa69@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-14T21:49:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions about BNS", "in_reply_to": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492A62C8E@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Eric,\n\nWelcome. I can't answer all your quesitons, and for those I can, my\nanswers may be \"debateable.\" But here goes.\n\n1) When Severian enters the shop of Agilus and Agia, Agilus is wearing a" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mask that makes him look like a corpse. No detail in Wolfe is\ninconsequential: so why is that there? Foreshadowing of Agilus' fate?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps, but more generally there's a theme about things that pretend to be\nsomething they aren't pretending to be what they really are: i.e., the\nHierodules, beautiful humanoids who wear masks of hideous things, and wear\nbeautiful human masks over that; or Jonas, who seems to be a robot\nmasquarading as a human, but turns out to have a human soul. Etc.\n\nMind, I might be reading this through my \"Kurt Vonnegut\" eyes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) When Severian and Agia are in the Jungle Garden, the apparently travel\nin time and space (the story about Father Inire's mirrors apparently\nprepares the reader for this) to a missionary couple in the jungle. Can\nsomeone please explain to me what on earth the native is talking about on\npg. 131? The woman in the couple reads from Deuteronomy 34 - about Moses\nlooking into the promised land but not being able to enter it - and then the\nnative tells a story about a fish who apparently is a woman. I'm totally at\na loss here; what is the connection? What is the naked man talking about?\nHow does this contribute to the story?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't answer this one. But I'll use it to suggest that pagination rarely\nhelps; there are quite a number of one-, two- and four-volume editions of\ntBotNS out, so your pagination will almost certainly differ from that of\nthose trying to answer the questions. better to give chapter numbers and\ninformation that will help locate the text in the chapter -- which, other\nthan the chapter number, you did fairly well here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 3) What about the vision Dorcas and Severian see when they're leaving\nNessus of the huge palace (pg 181)? What is it of? I vaguely remember that\nthe conversation which Severian has with the woman who gives him tea at the\nfair in Saltus might hint that it is somehow identified with the tent of the\nPelerines. Is that on the right track?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It *is* the tent of the Pelerines. They lit a fire to burn it down and it\nwent up like a hot-air balloon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4) At the end of Shadow of the Torturer, there's a disturbance at the huge\ngate of Nessus; we only learn in Severian's dream in the next book about the\nfive soldiers turning people aside. Severian seems so circumspect in\ndescribing this that I'm suspicious he knows something which he isn't\ntelling us. Is this incident in the book significant? Or is it just that\nSeverian doesn't know why the soldiers are there?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This incident has been discussed a great deal, to no real conclusion. One\nanswer that has been suggested is that they are there to capture one of\nseveral members of the party - particularly Sev himself (in which case the\nattack would be under the influence of Abaia or one of those guys) or maybe\nBaldanders. Another is that this is simply soldiers taking advantage of the\nfact that it's forbidden to use the roads, and the gate is on a road, so...\n\n5) One more and I'll stop - when Severian nearly drowns in the Gyoll near" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the beginning of Shadow, he sees a woman's face; later, during his dream\nwhile he's sleeping next to Baldanders, the brides of Abia hint that they\ncame to see him at the Gyoll - so that's who he sees. Two questions: who is\nthe woman crying that he hears - Thecla? Also, when his friends pull him\nout, he says that he saw the dead Malrubius - and a boatman asks if\nMalrubius is a woman. I know this is really small, but, like I said, no\ndetail is insignificant; why would the boatman say this? Is there anything\nhere?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know who the woman crying out is. But my claim is that the boatman\nis Dorcas's husband, whom Severian next encounters in the Garden when he\nnearly drowns." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nI am miserable, he is miserable,\nWe are miserable.\nCan't we have a party? Would he rather have a party?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<534DE5BF-12DD-4568-A6C2-1AF54A2DBFB5@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2007-11-14T23:09:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions about BNS", "in_reply_to": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492A62C8E@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 14, 2007, at 1:26 PM, Eric Ortlund wrote:\n2) When Severian and Agia are in the Jungle Garden, the apparently \ntravel in time and space (the story about Father Inire's mirrors \napparently prepares the reader for this) to a missionary couple in \nthe jungle. Can someone please explain to me what on earth the \nnative is talking about on pg. 131? The woman in the couple reads \nfrom Deuteronomy 34 - about Moses looking into the promised land \nbut not being able to enter it" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This would be Severian and the Urth of the New Sun, is my reading. \nIn addition to being a Christ figure he's a Mosaic figure--he brings \nhis world to salvation but does not himself get to enter the New World." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- and then the native tells a story about a fish who apparently is \na woman. I'm totally at a loss here; what is the connection? What \nis the naked man talking about? How does this contribute to the \nstory?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Undines? Dunno." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3) What about the vision Dorcas and Severian see when they're \nleaving Nessus of the huge palace (pg 181)? What is it of? I \nvaguely remember that the conversation which Severian has with the \nwoman who gives him tea at the fair in Saltus might hint that it is \nsomehow identified with the tent of the Pelerines. Is that on the \nright track?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I recall, the tent of the Pelerines rising like a hot air balloon \nas it burns. But I might be misremembering, because that doesn't \nsound plausible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4) At the end of Shadow of the Torturer, there's a disturbance at \nthe huge gate of Nessus; we only learn in Severian's dream in the \nnext book about the five soldiers turning people aside. Severian \nseems so circumspect in describing this that I'm suspicious he \nknows something which he isn't telling us. Is this incident in the \nbook significant? Or is it just that Severian doesn't know why the \nsoldiers are there?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This has been discussed before, but I don't think anyone knows \ndefinitively what's going on. I myself love the idea that Severian \nthinks he can impress chicks with impromptu excruciations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "5) One more and I'll stop - when Severian nearly drowns in the \nGyoll near the beginning of Shadow, he sees a woman's face; later, \nduring his dream while he's sleeping next to Baldanders, the brides \nof Abia hint that they came to see him at the Gyoll - so that's who \nhe sees. Two questions: who is the woman crying that he hears - \nThecla? Also, when his friends pull him out, he says that he saw \nthe dead Malrubius - and a boatman asks if Malrubius is a woman. I \nknow this is really small, but, like I said, no detail is \ninsignificant; why would the boatman say this? Is there anything \nhere?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The boatman may have seen an undine. Or maybe not. There's \nsomething there all right. What, though...\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071115022848.GA26055@localhost>", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-15T02:28:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions about BNS", "in_reply_to": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492A62C8E@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 2007.11.14 13:26:21 -0600, Eric Ortlund scribbled 0 lines:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Dear Friends,\n\n My name is Eric and I teach Hebrew and Old Testament at a seminary in\n Canada. I picked up Strange Travellers several years ago while living\n overseas and was entranced, especially with \"To the Seventh.\" Then it was\n on to the Wizard Knight, which I have now read four times, each new time\n with increasing relish. I'm glad I did WK first, because I might have\n been overwhelmed otherwise! Anyway, all this is to say I'm relatively new\n to Wolfe (but he's quickly become my favorite author) and to this list -\n so if the questions I'm asked have already been discussed, just let me\n know!\n\n Anyway, I'm on my third time through the Book of the New Sun and there are\n some questions that keep niggling at me. Anyone care to comment on these?\n\n 1) When Severian enters the shop of Agilus and Agia, Agilus is wearing a\n mask that makes him look like a corpse. No detail in Wolfe is\n inconsequential: so why is that there? Foreshadowing of Agilus' fate?\n\n 2) When Severian and Agia are in the Jungle Garden, the apparently travel\n in time and space (the story about Father Inire's mirrors apparently\n prepares the reader for this) to a missionary couple in the jungle. Can\n someone please explain to me what on earth the native is talking about on\n pg. 131? The woman in the couple reads from Deuteronomy 34 - about Moses\n looking into the promised land but not being able to enter it - and then\n the native tells a story about a fish who apparently is a woman. I'm\n totally at a loss here; what is the connection? What is the naked man\n talking about? How does this contribute to the story?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Thanks again - Eric" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've thought that they didn't really travel. The naked native is named Isangoma, which seems to be an African title for some sort of shaman or diviner, and he refers to Agia and Severian constantly as spirits.\n\nActually, turns out I'm not the first to think this: , , .\n\nYeah, so my theory is that they are there as specula themselves, which is how they can 'travel' such distances of time and space, and why the Preceptress Marie and Robert cannot see them (well). But Isangoma and his kind are gifted with being able to; that is why when his nephew hooked that fish, he could see through to what it really was: \"Then he saw the fish moving beneath the woman's face, and knew that he saw a reflection.\"\n\nSo it's further commentary on Inire's Fish, but I don't think that's it. Understanding what's going on would be a lot easier if we knew who Marie and Robert are. Why is she a Preceptress? Who is Robert and why did he abandon his art studies in Paris? What the heck are they doing in such a stereotypical Africa? And if it's the deep past from Severian and Agia's point of view, why is the mail plane a 'thopter and not a fixed-wing?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nEODN Commecen AUTODIN security AFSPC Global Pine 1071 NORAD Faber" } ] }, { "message_id": "<473BB19A.70109@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-11-15T02:40:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions about BNS", "in_reply_to": "<534DE5BF-12DD-4568-A6C2-1AF54A2DBFB5@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Nov 14, 2007, at 1:26 PM, Eric Ortlund wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2) When Severian and Agia are in the Jungle Garden, the apparently \ntravel in time and space (the story about Father Inire's mirrors \napparently prepares the reader for this) to a missionary couple in the \njungle. Can someone please explain to me what on earth the native is \ntalking about on pg. 131? The woman in the couple reads from \nDeuteronomy 34 - about Moses looking into the promised land but not \nbeing able to enter it" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This would be Severian and the Urth of the New Sun, is my reading. In \naddition to being a Christ figure he's a Mosaic figure--he brings his \nworld to salvation but does not himself get to enter the New World." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doesn't he? If the people who worship The Sleeper aren't on Briah, where \nare they?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "3) What about the vision Dorcas and Severian see when they're leaving \nNessus of the huge palace (pg 181)? What is it of? I vaguely \nremember that the conversation which Severian has with the woman who \ngives him tea at the fair in Saltus might hint that it is somehow \nidentified with the tent of the Pelerines. Is that on the right track?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I recall, the tent of the Pelerines rising like a hot air balloon as \nit burns. But I might be misremembering, because that doesn't sound \nplausible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Their \"tent\" is more like a circus big-top made from advanced fabric \nthat resists combustion and may be somewhat metallic in appearance as it \nresembles other buildings in the citadel which include rocket ships in \ntheir number. If nothing else, the straw covering the ground inside it \nwould be a ready source of hot air when burned. It probably wouldn't be \nstable and could roll over and deflate at any moment, giving the \nappearance that it disappeared in a shower of sparks." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13DC74B2-0D2B-49F5-B341-85C9E6608C5A@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2007-11-15T02:54:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions about BNS", "in_reply_to": "<473BB19A.70109@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 14, 2007, at 8:40 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nAdam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Nov 14, 2007, at 1:26 PM, Eric Ortlund wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "2) When Severian and Agia are in the Jungle Garden, the apparently\ntravel in time and space (the story about Father Inire's mirrors\napparently prepares the reader for this) to a missionary couple \nin the\njungle. Can someone please explain to me what on earth the \nnative is\ntalking about on pg. 131? The woman in the couple reads from\nDeuteronomy 34 - about Moses looking into the promised land but not\nbeing able to enter it" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This would be Severian and the Urth of the New Sun, is my \nreading. In\naddition to being a Christ figure he's a Mosaic figure--he brings his\nworld to salvation but does not himself get to enter the New World." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Doesn't he? If the people who worship The Sleeper aren't on Briah, \nwhere\nare they?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought they were on Urth's distant past, that he had swung himself \nbackwards into time to when the New Sun was not yet, and hence was \nstuck.\n\nI may well have misread that. (Which is a general-purpose caveat in \nany of my readings of Wolfe.)\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071115032200.3560D2283E@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-11-15T03:21:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions about BNS", "in_reply_to": "<13DC74B2-0D2B-49F5-B341-85C9E6608C5A@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 06:26:21 +1100 Eric Ortlund \n wrote:\n\n1) When Severian enters the shop of Agilus and Agia, Agilus is \nwearing a\nmask that makes him look like a corpse. No detail in Wolfe is\ninconsequential: so why is that there? Foreshadowing of Agilus' \nfate? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, Agilus has some kind of permanent mask attachment points on \nhis neck. Sev can still see them when Agilus removes the mask. \nWhat's with that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) When Severian and Agia are in the Jungle Garden, the apparently\ntravel in time and space (the story about Father Inire's mirrors\napparently prepares the reader for this) to a missionary couple in " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the\njungle. Can someone please explain to me what on earth the native " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is\ntalking about on pg. 131? The woman in the couple reads from\nDeuteronomy 34 - about Moses looking into the promised land but \nnot\nbeing able to enter it - and then the native tells a story about a " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "fish\nwho apparently is a woman. I'm totally at a loss here; what is \nthe\nconnection? What is the naked man talking about? How does this\ncontribute to the story? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the fish part: Just after the jungle hut scene (I think) Sev \ntells Agia the story of Inire and Thecla's little friend, the one \nin which the mirror-fish appears. I'm pretty sure this is the same \nfish, and the woman is the \"reflection\" of Thecla's friend. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3) What about the vision Dorcas and Severian see when they're \nleaving\nNessus of the huge palace (pg 181)? What is it of? I vaguely \nremember\nthat the conversation which Severian has with the woman who gives \nhim\ntea at the fair in Saltus might hint that it is somehow identified " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "with\nthe tent of the Pelerines. Is that on the right track?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought it was pretty clear that this was indeed the Pelerine's \ntemple rising up like a hot air balloon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4) At the end of Shadow of the Torturer, there's a disturbance at \nthe\nhuge gate of Nessus; we only learn in Severian's dream in the next " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "book\nabout the five soldiers turning people aside. Severian seems so\ncircumspect in describing this that I'm suspicious he knows \nsomething\nwhich he isn't telling us. Is this incident in the book \nsignificant?\nOr is it just that Severian doesn't know why the soldiers are \nthere?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Over the years, this has puzzled many. I haven't yet heard an \nentirely satisfactory solution & don't have one myself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "5) One more and I'll stop - when Severian nearly drowns in the \nGyoll\nnear the beginning of Shadow, he sees a woman's face; later, \nduring his\ndream while he's sleeping next to Baldanders, the brides of Abia \nhint\nthat they came to see him at the Gyoll - so that's who he sees. \nTwo\nquestions: who is the woman crying that he hears - Thecla? Also, \nwhen\nhis friends pull him out, he says that he saw the dead Malrubius - " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and a\nboatman asks if Malrubius is a woman. I know this is really \nsmall, but,\nlike I said, no detail is insignificant; why would the boatman say " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "this?\nIs there anything here?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My guess is that the crying woman was his mother (near-death has \ndredged up a very early memory, or something like that). The \nboatman knows that water-women come up the river, and he wonders if \n\"Malrubius\" was one of these. (Actually, I can't remember exactly \nwhere we get told that water-women coming up the river is \nrelatively common - but I believe at the end of CoA there's enough \nto make this clear, and SilkHorn says somethign like this in RTTW.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2007-11-15T04:13:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions about BNS", "in_reply_to": "<20071115022848.GA26055@localhost>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 14 Nov 2007, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nOn 2007.11.14 13:26:21 -0600, Eric Ortlund scribbled 0 lines:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " 2) When Severian and Agia are in the Jungle Garden, the apparently travel\n in time and space (the story about Father Inire's mirrors apparently\n prepares the reader for this) to a missionary couple in the jungle. Can\n someone please explain to me what on earth the native is talking about on\n pg. 131? The woman in the couple reads from Deuteronomy 34 - about Moses\n looking into the promised land but not being able to enter it - and then\n the native tells a story about a fish who apparently is a woman. I'm\n totally at a loss here; what is the connection? What is the naked man\n talking about? How does this contribute to the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've thought that they didn't really travel. The naked native is named \nIsangoma, which seems to be an African title for some sort of shaman or \ndiviner, and he refers to Agia and Severian constantly as spirits.\n\nActually, turns out I'm not the first to think this...\n\nYeah, so my theory is that they are there as specula themselves, which\nis how they can 'travel' such distances of time and space, and why the\nPreceptress Marie and Robert cannot see them (well). But Isangoma and" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Understanding what's going on would be a lot easier if we knew who\nMarie and Robert are. Why is she a Preceptress? Who is Robert and why\nAnd if it's the deep past from Severian and\nAgia's point of view, why is the mail plane a 'thopter and not a\nfixed-wing?\n--\ngwern" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As Agila says, I think they are reenactors. They are not in our Africa:\nIsangoma uses an Australian aboriginal word for fishing spear, as well\nas Zulu terms, and mentions several our-now-extinct birds and animals.\nRereading the mail plane description, it is a fixed wing propeller\ndriven aircraft. I don't know who Robert and Marie are, but it seems\nlike we *should* know them. I think they are Preceptor and -tress\njust because they are both missionaries.\n\nCheers, David Duffy\n\nPS About 1/3 through _Pirate Freedom_!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<473BCDF2.6000606@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-11-15T04:41:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions about BNS", "in_reply_to": "<473BB19A.70109@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nAdam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Nov 14, 2007, at 1:26 PM, Eric Ortlund wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "2) When Severian and Agia are in the Jungle Garden, the apparently \ntravel in time and space (the story about Father Inire's mirrors \napparently prepares the reader for this) to a missionary couple in the \njungle. Can someone please explain to me what on earth the native is \ntalking about on pg. 131? The woman in the couple reads from \nDeuteronomy 34 - about Moses looking into the promised land but not \nbeing able to enter it" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This would be Severian and the Urth of the New Sun, is my reading. In \naddition to being a Christ figure he's a Mosaic figure--he brings his \nworld to salvation but does not himself get to enter the New World." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Doesn't he? If the people who worship The Sleeper aren't on Briah, where \nare they?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "sorry, I meant \"on Ushas\"." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001701c8274e$d0ab9fe0$70c85a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-11-15T06:14:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions about BNS", "in_reply_to": "<473BCDF2.6000606@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Welcome, Eric!\n\nSearch the archives for \"Piteous Gate\" for past discussions of the incident.\n\nAs several others have said, the fiery apparition witnessed by Severian and\nDorcas in Book I is indeed the \"miracle\" of the rising, burning tent\ncathedral of the Pelerines mentioned by the lady vendor in Saltus in Book\nII." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Eric Ortlund wrote:\n5) One more and I'll stop - when Severian nearly drowns in the Gyoll\nnear the beginning of Shadow, he sees a woman's face; later, during his\ndream while he's sleeping next to Baldanders, the brides of Abia hint\nthat they came to see him at the Gyoll - so that's who he sees.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More specifically, the huge face he sees is that of Juturna. See Book V,\nChapter XLIII." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Two" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "questions: who is the woman crying that he hears - Thecla? <<\n\nAs Andrew has also suggested, I believe the woman was his mother." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Also, when" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "his friends pull him out, he says that he saw the dead Malrubius - and a\nboatman asks if Malrubius is a woman. I know this is really small, but,\nlike I said, no detail is insignificant; why would the boatman say this?\nIs there anything here? <<\n\nI believe that Robert Borski was the first to suggest that the boatman\nis/was Dorcas' husband. I know of no better explanation.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492A630B3@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "from": { "name": "Eric Ortlund", "address": "eortlund at briercrest.ca" }, "date": "2007-11-15T15:13:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions about BNS", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370711141349p44fa3f5ey82ab302d076ffa69@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Comments in blue below." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492A630C6@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "from": { "name": "Eric Ortlund", "address": "eortlund at briercrest.ca" }, "date": "2007-11-15T15:19:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions about BNS", "in_reply_to": "<534DE5BF-12DD-4568-A6C2-1AF54A2DBFB5@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [] }, { "message_id": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492A6311D@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "from": { "name": "Eric Ortlund", "address": "eortlund at briercrest.ca" }, "date": "2007-11-15T15:48:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions about BNS", "in_reply_to": "<001701c8274e$d0ab9fe0$70c85a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "T \n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]\nOn Behalf Of Roy C. Lackey\nSent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 12:15 AM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) Questions about BNS [mx][spf]\n\nWelcome, Eric!\n\nSearch the archives for \"Piteous Gate\" for past discussions of the\nincident.\n\nAs several others have said, the fiery apparition witnessed by Severian\nand Dorcas in Book I is indeed the \"miracle\" of the rising, burning tent\ncathedral of the Pelerines mentioned by the lady vendor in Saltus in\nBook II." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Eric Ortlund wrote:\n5) One more and I'll stop - when Severian nearly drowns in the Gyoll\nnear the beginning of Shadow, he sees a woman's face; later, during his\ndream while he's sleeping next to Baldanders, the brides of Abia hint\nthat they came to see him at the Gyoll - so that's who he sees.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More specifically, the huge face he sees is that of Juturna. See Book V,\nChapter XLIII." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Two" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "questions: who is the woman crying that he hears - Thecla? <<\n\nAs Andrew has also suggested, I believe the woman was his mother.\n\nThat makes sense to me. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Also, when" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "his friends pull him out, he says that he saw the dead Malrubius - and a\nboatman asks if Malrubius is a woman. I know this is really small, but,\nlike I said, no detail is insignificant; why would the boatman say this?\nIs there anything here? <<\n\nI believe that Robert Borski was the first to suggest that the boatman\nis/was Dorcas' husband. I know of no better explanation.\n\n-Roy\n\nYup, that sounds right to me.\n\nThanks, everyone, for the responses; it makes Wolfe a lot more exciting\nto read as I realize how much depth there is to the New Sun series.\nThis is the \"biggest\" book I've ever read - it simply has the vastest\nperspective of any work of fiction I've ever come across.\n\nI find it impossible to describe the sense of uplift I felt after\nreading the last sentence of Urth of the New Sun about the sleeping god;\nafter so much destruction and pain, it is a tantalizingly hopeful\nending. \n\nPart of the reason I find Wolfe so entrancing is that he's so erudite\nwhen it comes to ancient mythology. Part of my studies has been on\nancient Semitic myths and their relation to the Hebrew Bible. As in BNS\n- and as in WK, for that matter - the sea and the monsters in it are\noften seen as these cosmic monsters which would destroy all of creation,\nwhich Marduk (Babylonian)/Baal/Yahweh/whoever needs to defeat - and in\nso doing, renews all creation. Much the same theme seems to be going on\nhere. I find it very interesting that these chaotic forces try to\nenlist the hero in both BNS and WK. \n\nThe more I read about the Tokoloshe scene in the Jungle Garden, the more\nmysteries it seems to hold. Why do only Isangoma and Robert see Sev and\nAgia (who, by the way, are apparently \"traveling\" in the same way - as\nspecula - which Horn/Silk does in the Short Sun series)? And Robert\nrefers to the two of them as Death and His Lady (doesn't Dr. Talos say\nthe same thing about them?), who have \"come to remonstrate with him for\ngiving up art for this\" (1/21), \"this\" apparently meaning missions work.\n\n\nI think it is singificant that Robert says that \"They are the spirits of\nthe future, and we make them ourselves\" - something which, from the\nlarger perspective of the novel as a whole, is true. Isangoma also\nsays, \"Tokoloshe remain until the end of the world.\"\n\nThe odd thing is that the Christian missionaries don't seem to be able\nto handle the spectral appearance of Sev and Agia - but Isangoma\nunderstands it, is not frightened by it, and offers to dispel the\nspirits with his song. (There's a note of triumph in Isangoma's voice\nas Agia leaves the hut and Sev follows her.) Robert seems quite shaken\nin his faith in the whole encounter - as if Sev is torturing him just by\nhis appearance. Perhaps a strike against Christianity and in favor of\npaganism! Odd.\n\nThoughts?\n\nThanks again for the helpful comments. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071116020315.GA17059@localhost>", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-16T02:03:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions about BNS", "in_reply_to": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492A6311D@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 2007.11.15 09:48:09 -0600, Eric Ortlund scribbled 0 lines:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I think it is singificant that Robert says that \"They are the spirits of\n the future, and we make them ourselves\" - something which, from the larger\n perspective of the novel as a whole, is true. Isangoma also says,\n \"Tokoloshe remain until the end of the world.\"\n\n The odd thing is that the Christian missionaries don't seem to be able to\n handle the spectral appearance of Sev and Agia - but Isangoma understands\n it, is not frightened by it, and offers to dispel the spirits with his\n song. (There's a note of triumph in Isangoma's voice as Agia leaves the\n hut and Sev follows her.) Robert seems quite shaken in his faith in the\n whole encounter - as if Sev is torturing him just by his appearance.\n Perhaps a strike against Christianity and in favor of paganism! Odd.\n\n Thoughts?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't think Isangoma was not frightened by it. Doesn't Robert specifically say to Marie that Isangoma is afraid? And doesn't Robert pale when he actually looks at them?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071116021754.GC17150@localhost>", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-16T02:17:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions about BNS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 2007.11.15 14:13:09 +1000, David Duffy scribbled 0 lines:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 14 Nov 2007, Gwern Branwen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 2007.11.14 13:26:21 -0600, Eric Ortlund scribbled 0 lines:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As Agila says, I think they are reenactors. They are not in our Africa:\nIsangoma uses an Australian aboriginal word for fishing spear, as well\nas Zulu terms, and mentions several our-now-extinct birds and animals.\nRereading the mail plane description, it is a fixed wing propeller\ndriven aircraft. I don't know who Robert and Marie are, but it seems\nlike we *should* know them. I think they are Preceptor and -tress\njust because they are both missionaries." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but couldn't the terminology as easily be due to the translation of tBotNS into English? If they really are from the Commonwealth time, then 'our-now-extinct' birds and animals would be even more extinct and mythical. And as someone else pointed out, where would these re-enactors be getting Paris and all the rest from? Records from that period don't seem to be available in Severian's time; the present-day is just too long ago." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cheers, David Duffy\n\nPS About 1/3 through _Pirate Freedom_!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<473DAFAB.6070307@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-11-16T14:56:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions about BNS", "in_reply_to": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492A630B3@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eric Ortlund wrote:\nComments in blue below." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Please do not use colors and other non-standard fancy formatting in \ne-mail intended for members of the general public; it makes the baby \nTheoanthropos cry and opens several cans of worms as detailed here:\n\n\thttp://www.expita.com/nomime.html\n\thttp://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting.html" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }