{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4932", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4932, "subject": "Questions . . .", "messages": 41, "voices": 21, "first": "2007-11-27T00:42:17+00:00", "last": "2007-11-30T20:16:10+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492AF8A82@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "from": { "name": "Eric Ortlund", "address": "eortlund at briercrest.ca" }, "date": "2007-11-27T00:42:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Friends,\n\nForgive me again if I'm repeating old questions, but perhaps some of you\ncan help with the following . . .\n\n1) What is the larger significance of the story Sev reads to Jonas about\nthe man fleshed from dreams? I get that it's a re-working of the\nTheseus and Minotaur story, but is it anything more than an entertaining\ninterlude? Is it some kind of commentary on the surrounding narrative -\nor Jonas' story? Severian finishes the story with a dismissive comment\nabout it being an idle tale, but I'm suspicious something more is going\non here.\n\n2) When Severian meets Rudesind the second time before meeting the\nAutarch, is Rudesind's confusion about where they are - he keeps talking\nabout being back in the Citadel, and how they can check the map in\nUltan's library - intentional? Is he hinting something to Severian?\n\n3) Is there a deeper significance to the code phrases Vodalus gives\nSeverian? There's so much about ships elsewhere in the book (the\npelagic argosy) - the ship on the tomb Sev rests in as a boy, the ship\nhe sails to Yesod in - and the Autarch drops the phrase to Sev. as he's\ntalking about the higher world Severian will eventually travel to. Or\nis it \"just\" a phrase?\n\nMany thanks, \nEric\n\n-------------------------\nInvite the next generation of students to consider Briercrest College and Seminary. Visit www.briercrest.ca/refer. \n-------------------------\nThis e-mail may contain confidential and privileged proprietary material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, or distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, or authorized to receive the information from the recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this message." } ] }, { "message_id": "<474B939A.8040103@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T03:48:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492AF8A82@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eric Ortlund wrote:\nDear Friends,\n\nForgive me again if I'm repeating old questions, but perhaps some of you\ncan help with the following . . .\n\n1) What is the larger significance of the story Sev reads to Jonas about\nthe man fleshed from dreams? I get that it's a re-working of the\nTheseus and Minotaur story, but is it anything more than an entertaining\ninterlude? Is it some kind of commentary on the surrounding narrative -\nor Jonas' story? Severian finishes the story with a dismissive comment\nabout it being an idle tale, but I'm suspicious something more is going\non here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe this is foreshadowing of the whole hting about aquastors, \neidolons, and other projected people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) When Severian meets Rudesind the second time before meeting the\nAutarch, is Rudesind's confusion about where they are - he keeps talking\nabout being back in the Citadel, and how they can check the map in\nUltan's library - intentional? Is he hinting something to Severian?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've always taken this to be a sign that the Citadel and the House \nAbsolute share underground infrastructure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3) Is there a deeper significance to the code phrases Vodalus gives\nSeverian? There's so much about ships elsewhere in the book (the\npelagic argosy) - the ship on the tomb Sev rests in as a boy, the ship\nhe sails to Yesod in - and the Autarch drops the phrase to Sev. as he's\ntalking about the higher world Severian will eventually travel to. Or\nis it \"just\" a phrase?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"pelagic\" makes it a specific sort of ship, one that sails the high \nseas. This distinguishes it from the Tzadkiel, or the riverine vessel \nSeverian nearly sinks in Urth. Also, argosy can be multiple ships. Hmm, \nperhaps \"pelagic\" is the only sort of vessel *not* encountered in \nSeverian's chronicle, though the crypt would seem to depict one." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T04:17:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<474B939A.8040103@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 26, 2007, at 10:48 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "3) Is there a deeper significance to the code phrases Vodalus gives\nSeverian? There's so much about ships elsewhere in the book (the\npelagic argosy) - the ship on the tomb Sev rests in as a boy, the \nship\nhe sails to Yesod in - and the Autarch drops the phrase to Sev. as \nhe's\ntalking about the higher world Severian will eventually travel to. \nOr\nis it \"just\" a phrase?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"pelagic\" makes it a specific sort of ship, one that sails the high\nseas. This distinguishes it from the Tzadkiel, or the riverine vessel\nSeverian nearly sinks in Urth. Also, argosy can be multiple ships. \nHmm,\nperhaps \"pelagic\" is the only sort of vessel *not* encountered in\nSeverian's chronicle, though the crypt would seem to depict one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When I first read those lines, I went and looked up _pelagic_ and \nfound a definition that I thought meant in the very deep, open sea, \nvery far from land.\n\nSo a \"pelagic argosy\" is kind of a neat paradox in that way. There you \nare far, far from the shore, and you see the shore. What's that! I'm \nscared. See what I mean?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9E746FFD-D2D6-489C-8AA6-CB01D7A39053@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T04:22:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought \"pelagic\" referred to open-ocean zones -- like there are \ndifferent *-pelagics for different depths (i.e., mesopelagic, \nepipelagic, etc.)\n\nArgosy was, I thought, a reference to the myth of Jason and the \nGolden Fleece, a fleece said to give one the ability to fly. It would \nseem to fit with some of the other Greek allusions that Mr. Wolfe is \nfond of.\n\nBut then again, I'm no expert, certainly.\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 26, 2007, at 10:17 PM, Transentient wrote:\n\nOn Nov 26, 2007, at 10:48 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "3) Is there a deeper significance to the code phrases Vodalus gives\nSeverian? There's so much about ships elsewhere in the book (the\npelagic argosy) - the ship on the tomb Sev rests in as a boy, the\nship\nhe sails to Yesod in - and the Autarch drops the phrase to Sev. as\nhe's\ntalking about the higher world Severian will eventually travel to.\nOr\nis it \"just\" a phrase?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"pelagic\" makes it a specific sort of ship, one that sails the high\nseas. This distinguishes it from the Tzadkiel, or the riverine vessel\nSeverian nearly sinks in Urth. Also, argosy can be multiple ships.\nHmm,\nperhaps \"pelagic\" is the only sort of vessel *not* encountered in\nSeverian's chronicle, though the crypt would seem to depict one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When I first read those lines, I went and looked up _pelagic_ and\nfound a definition that I thought meant in the very deep, open sea,\nvery far from land.\n\nSo a \"pelagic argosy\" is kind of a neat paradox in that way. There you\nare far, far from the shore, and you see the shore. What's that! I'm\nscared. See what I mean?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5438.72.171.0.138.1196139746.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-11-27T05:02:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<9E746FFD-D2D6-489C-8AA6-CB01D7A39053@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Argosy was, I thought, a reference to the myth of Jason and the\nGolden Fleece, a fleece said to give one the ability to fly. It would\nseem to fit with some of the other Greek allusions that Mr. Wolfe is\nfond of." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, the Argo was Jason's ship. An argosy is a voyage generically similar\nto Jason's, would be my first guess.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2007-11-27T05:28:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<474B939A.8040103@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nEric Ortlund wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "3) Is there a deeper significance to the code phrases Vodalus gives\nSeverian? There's so much about ships elsewhere in the book (the\npelagic argosy) - the ship on the tomb Sev rests in as a boy, the ship\nhe sails to Yesod in - and the Autarch drops the phrase to Sev. as he's\ntalking about the higher world Severian will eventually travel to. Or\nis it \"just\" a phrase?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"pelagic\" makes it a specific sort of ship, one that sails the high\nseas. This distinguishes it from the Tzadkiel, or the riverine vessel\nSeverian nearly sinks in Urth. Also, argosy can be multiple ships. Hmm,\nperhaps \"pelagic\" is the only sort of vessel *not* encountered in\nSeverian's chronicle, though the crypt would seem to depict one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One reading is that it refers to those enemies of the Commonwealth that \nhave their home underwater. Perhaps an overreading, but I quite liked\nthe possibility it also referred to Pelagianism (perfectability without \ngrace, yada yada).\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<728BBE1C-85C4-4405-ADBA-B4C9501599B4@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T05:30:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 26, 2007, at 11:28 PM, David Duffy wrote:\nOn Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Eric Ortlund wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "3) Is there a deeper significance to the code phrases Vodalus gives\nSeverian? There's so much about ships elsewhere in the book (the\npelagic argosy) - the ship on the tomb Sev rests in as a boy, the \nship\nhe sails to Yesod in - and the Autarch drops the phrase to Sev. \nas he's\ntalking about the higher world Severian will eventually travel \nto. Or\nis it \"just\" a phrase?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"pelagic\" makes it a specific sort of ship, one that sails the high\nseas. This distinguishes it from the Tzadkiel, or the riverine vessel\nSeverian nearly sinks in Urth. Also, argosy can be multiple ships. \nHmm,\nperhaps \"pelagic\" is the only sort of vessel *not* encountered in\nSeverian's chronicle, though the crypt would seem to depict one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One reading is that it refers to those enemies of the Commonwealth \nthat\nhave their home underwater. Perhaps an overreading, but I quite liked\nthe possibility it also referred to Pelagianism (perfectability \nwithout\ngrace, yada yada).\n\nDavid Duffy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why assume it has but one meaning? Wolfe probably intended for it to \nhave different layers of meaning. He's crafty like that.\n\nLane" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Crossley", "address": "ishmael at drizzle.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T05:33:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<5438.72.171.0.138.1196139746.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/26/07 9:02 PM, \"brunians at brunians.org\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Argosy was, I thought, a reference to the myth of Jason and the\nGolden Fleece, a fleece said to give one the ability to fly. It would\nseem to fit with some of the other Greek allusions that Mr. Wolfe is\nfond of." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, the Argo was Jason's ship. An argosy is a voyage generically similar\nto Jason's, would be my first guess." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not a voyage, but a ship. The OED says:\n\nHist. and poet. A merchant-vessel of the largest size and burden; esp. those\nof Ragusa and Venice.\n\nAs for the etymology, the word surprisingly has naught to do with the Argo:\n\n[App. ad. It. Ragusea, pl. Ragusee, i.e. una (nave or caracca) Ragusea, a\nRagusan (vessel or carack), best repr. by the earliest form ragusye; the\ntransposition in argosea, arguze, argozee, etc., is no doubt connected with\nthe fact that Ragusa (in Venetian, Ragusi) itself appears in 16th c. English\nas Aragouse, Arragouese, Arragosa. Cf. also the prec. word, in which\nArgosine seems to represent It. Ragusino, synonym of Raguseo.]\n \n\nThat argosies were reputed to take their name from Ragusa, is stated by\nseveral writers of 17th c.; and the derivation is made inductively certain\nby investigations made for us by Mr. A. J. Evans, showing the extent of\nRagusan trade with England, and the familiarity of Englishmen with the\nRagusee or large and richly-freighted merchant ships of Ragusa, ?Argosies\nwith portly saile, Like Signiors and rich Burgers on the flood [which]\nouer-peere the pettie Traffiquers That curtsie to them, do them reuerence,\nAs they flye by them with their wouen wings. (SHAKES. Merch. V. I. i. 9.)\nNo reference to the ship Argo is traceable in the early use of the word.] " } ] }, { "message_id": "<002301c830be$f43fcac0$23ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-11-27T06:30:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eric wrote:\n2) When Severian meets Rudesind the second time before meeting the\nAutarch, is Rudesind's confusion about where they are - he keeps talking\nabout being back in the Citadel, and how they can check the map in\nUltan's library - intentional? Is he hinting something to Severian?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rudesind isn't confused. He is trying to steer Sev to the meeting with the\nautarch, just as he had steered Sev to Ultan earlier. Rudesind is Inire's\nman, and Inire is pulling strings, trying to get Sev moving to the Phoenix\nThrone. The library and picture gallery in the Citadel are connected to the\nHouse Absolute by way of one of Inire's space/time twisting constructs. One\ncan walk from one place to the other, and Rudesind does it often.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6252.72.171.0.149.1196155619.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-11-27T09:26:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting and cool.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/26/07 9:02 PM, \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Argosy was, I thought, a reference to the myth of Jason and the\nGolden Fleece, a fleece said to give one the ability to fly. It would\nseem to fit with some of the other Greek allusions that Mr. Wolfe is\nfond of." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, the Argo was Jason's ship. An argosy is a voyage generically similar\nto Jason's, would be my first guess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not a voyage, but a ship. The OED says:\n\nHist. and poet. A merchant-vessel of the largest size and burden; esp.\nthose\nof Ragusa and Venice.\n\nAs for the etymology, the word surprisingly has naught to do with the\nArgo:\n\n[App. ad. It. Ragusea, pl. Ragusee, i.e. una (nave or caracca) Ragusea, a\nRagusan (vessel or carack), best repr. by the earliest form ragusye; the\ntransposition in argosea, arguze, argozee, etc., is no doubt connected\nwith\nthe fact that Ragusa (in Venetian, Ragusi) itself appears in 16th c.\nEnglish\nas Aragouse, Arragouese, Arragosa. Cf. also the prec. word, in which\nArgosine seems to represent It. Ragusino, synonym of Raguseo.]\n\n\nThat argosies were reputed to take their name from Ragusa, is stated by\nseveral writers of 17th c.; and the derivation is made inductively certain\nby investigations made for us by Mr. A. J. Evans, showing the extent of\nRagusan trade with England, and the familiarity of Englishmen with the\nRagusee or large and richly-freighted merchant ships of Ragusa, ?Argosies\nwith portly saile, Like Signiors and rich Burgers on the flood [which]\nouer-peere the pettie Traffiquers That curtsie to them, do them reuerence,\nAs they flye by them with their wouen wings. (SHAKES. Merch. V. I. i. 9.)\nNo reference to the ship Argo is traceable in the early use of the word.]\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071127122737.22F46DA826@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T12:27:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<6252.72.171.0.149.1196155619.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:42:17 +1100 Eric Ortlund \n wrote:\nDear Friends,\n\nForgive me again if I'm repeating old questions, but perhaps some \nof you\ncan help with the following . . .\n\n1) What is the larger significance of the story Sev reads to Jonas " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "about\nthe man fleshed from dreams? I get that it's a re-working of the\nTheseus and Minotaur story, but is it anything more than an \nentertaining\ninterlude? Is it some kind of commentary on the surrounding \nnarrative -\nor Jonas' story? Severian finishes the story with a dismissive \ncomment\nabout it being an idle tale, but I'm suspicious something more is \ngoing\non here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this fable might be partly a conflation of the Theseus myth \nwith a story which is in fact Jonas' own. \n\nSomething like this: The enclave of magicians is a research \ninstitute; the magical son is a robot; the story is perhaps a dim \nremembrance of a time when Abaia or his ilk began to oppress or \nthreaten Urth, and humanity launched missions into space against \nthem, crewed by robots. Jonas' voyage was one of those missions. \n\nThe rather abrupt return-to-Athens-ending is perhaps a hint that, \nin fact, none of these missions ever returned, or not for aeons - \nthe \"Fortunate Cloud\" was lost in the Coal Sack or whatever, and \nthe story of the \"victory\" is really just a piece of wish \nfulfilment.\n\nI imagine it would have been quite poignant for Jonas, hearing his \nstory conflated with a (to him) ancient myth - his past lost in \ndeep time etc etc. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T15:55:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<20071127122737.22F46DA826@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 27, 2007, at 6:27 AM, \n wrote:\n\n\nOn Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:42:17 +1100 Eric Ortlund\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dear Friends,\n\nForgive me again if I'm repeating old questions, but perhaps some\nof you\ncan help with the following . . .\n\n1) What is the larger significance of the story Sev reads to Jonas" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "about\nthe man fleshed from dreams? I get that it's a re-working of the\nTheseus and Minotaur story, but is it anything more than an\nentertaining\ninterlude? Is it some kind of commentary on the surrounding\nnarrative -\nor Jonas' story? Severian finishes the story with a dismissive\ncomment\nabout it being an idle tale, but I'm suspicious something more is\ngoing\non here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this fable might be partly a conflation of the Theseus myth\nwith a story which is in fact Jonas' own.\n\nSomething like this: The enclave of magicians is a research\ninstitute; the magical son is a robot; the story is perhaps a dim\nremembrance of a time when Abaia or his ilk began to oppress or\nthreaten Urth, and humanity launched missions into space against\nthem, crewed by robots. Jonas' voyage was one of those missions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's also a Borges riff; I think the story in question is \"The \nCircular Ruins.\" Of course there's also the one about the Minotaur \nwhich I thought was the source for Seventeen, having forgotten that \n\"fourteen\" rather than \"seventeen\" was \"infinity\" in \"The House Of \nAsterion.\" There's a lot of Borges going on in the first couple \nbooks, especially.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<474C4592.90903@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Eoff", "address": "jeffeoff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T16:28:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492AF8A82@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20071127/3a949a2e/attachment.htm " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370711270934w34193140m7837bf9d0dadc402@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T17:34:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492AF8A82@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Eric,\n\nThese are great questions for examples of how to unpack the layers\nof meaning Wolfe stuffs into his texts.\n\n1) What is the larger significance of the story Sev reads to Jonas about" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the man fleshed from dreams? I get that it's a re-working of the\nTheseus and Minotaur story, but is it anything more than an entertaining\ninterlude? Is it some kind of commentary on the surrounding narrative -\nor Jonas' story? Severian finishes the story with a dismissive comment\nabout it being an idle tale, but I'm suspicious something more is going\non here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At one level, of course, it's a retelling of the Greek hero-tale of Theseus\nand the Minotaur. The bit about a hero fleshed from dreams foreshadows\nthe concept of \"aquastors\" and in particular the fact that the Severian who\nbecomes the New Sun is himself an aquastor, fleshed from his own will\n(dream) when his body dies on the star-sailing vessel, who will pass\nthrough the spacetime labyrinth to bring the New Sun and destroy the\nmonsters that beseige Urth.\n\n\n2) When Severian meets Rudesind the second time before meeting the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Autarch, is Rudesind's confusion about where they are - he keeps talking\nabout being back in the Citadel, and how they can check the map in\nUltan's library - intentional? Is he hinting something to Severian?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think Rudesind is confused; I think that the Citadel and the House\nAbsolute are in some way the same place. Mirrors..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3) Is there a deeper significance to the code phrases Vodalus gives\nSeverian? There's so much about ships elsewhere in the book (the\npelagic argosy) - the ship on the tomb Sev rests in as a boy, the ship\nhe sails to Yesod in - and the Autarch drops the phrase to Sev. as he's\ntalking about the higher world Severian will eventually travel to. Or\nis it \"just\" a phrase?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a *lot* here.\n\nFirst, when a pelagic (deep-sea) argosy \"sights land,\" it means that the\nlong voyage is nearly over. This is true, but not perhaps in the way that\nVodalus intends.\n\nSecond, the argosy is \"pelagic\" in the sense of Pelagianism: the\nHeiroFoos are guilty of the heresy of trying to perfect humans through\nnatural means rather than relying on divine grace.\n\nThe ship on Sev's tomb *is* Tzadkiel's ship; at one point, it is implied\nthat there is only one ship of this sort in the Universe.\n\nThere are no coincidences\n [COINCIDENCE: You weren't paying attention to the other half of\n what was going on. -- Chad C. Mulligan, \"The HipCrime Vocab\"]\nin the Book of the New Sun; what seems to be a coincidence is\nalways at least a synchronicity and most likely part of someone's\nplan, if only Wolfe's map of the meanings of the Book.\n\nOne of the many things I love about the Book is that what appears\nat first to be driven by a series Dickensian coincidences turns out\nto be a causally-driven plot (though, admittedly, the causality does\nnot always work forwards in linear time).\n\nOn another level, of course, it's just a phrase.\n\nSomeone else wanna unpack the second password?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nI am miserable, he is miserable,\nWe are miserable.\nCan't we have a party? Would he rather have a party?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492AF8D7F@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "from": { "name": "Eric Ortlund", "address": "eortlund at briercrest.ca" }, "date": "2007-11-27T17:42:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<002301c830be$f43fcac0$23ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for the helpful answer, Roy.\n\nOn an unrelated note, I was struck how, in his conversation with Sev,\nthe Autarch says that Inire has been putting together clever\ncontraptions since the first Autarch - which must make him very, very\nold (right?). I'm sure this has already been discussed, but Inire is\napparently a hierodule (or something of that sort). \n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]\nOn Behalf Of Roy C. Lackey\nSent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:30 AM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) Questions . . . [mx][spf]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eric wrote:\n2) When Severian meets Rudesind the second time before meeting the \nAutarch, is Rudesind's confusion about where they are - he keeps \ntalking about being back in the Citadel, and how they can check the map" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in Ultan's library - intentional? Is he hinting something to Severian?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rudesind isn't confused. He is trying to steer Sev to the meeting with\nthe autarch, just as he had steered Sev to Ultan earlier. Rudesind is\nInire's man, and Inire is pulling strings, trying to get Sev moving to\nthe Phoenix Throne. The library and picture gallery in the Citadel are\nconnected to the House Absolute by way of one of Inire's space/time\ntwisting constructs. One can walk from one place to the other, and\nRudesind does it often.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492AF8DA3@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "from": { "name": "Eric Ortlund", "address": "eortlund at briercrest.ca" }, "date": "2007-11-27T17:48:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<20071127122737.22F46DA826@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow, nice answer. I had never thought of it that way. \n\nWolfe must plan these books out unto the nth degree. As I remember, the\nissue of humans sailing out into space and getting lost in time isn't\nexplicitly discussed until Gunnie talks about it in Urth of the NS -\nwhich Wolfe wrote years later. But he had it all planned out. \n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]\nOn Behalf Of thalassocrat at nym.hush.com\nSent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 6:28 AM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) Questions . . . [mx][spf]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:42:17 +1100 Eric Ortlund \nwrote:\nDear Friends,\n\nForgive me again if I'm repeating old questions, but perhaps some of \nyou can help with the following . . .\n\n1) What is the larger significance of the story Sev reads to Jonas" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "about\nthe man fleshed from dreams? I get that it's a re-working of the \nTheseus and Minotaur story, but is it anything more than an \nentertaining interlude? Is it some kind of commentary on the \nsurrounding narrative - or Jonas' story? Severian finishes the story \nwith a dismissive comment about it being an idle tale, but I'm \nsuspicious something more is going on here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this fable might be partly a conflation of the Theseus myth with\na story which is in fact Jonas' own. \n\nSomething like this: The enclave of magicians is a research institute;\nthe magical son is a robot; the story is perhaps a dim remembrance of a\ntime when Abaia or his ilk began to oppress or threaten Urth, and\nhumanity launched missions into space against them, crewed by robots.\nJonas' voyage was one of those missions. \n\nThe rather abrupt return-to-Athens-ending is perhaps a hint that, in\nfact, none of these missions ever returned, or not for aeons - the\n\"Fortunate Cloud\" was lost in the Coal Sack or whatever, and the story\nof the \"victory\" is really just a piece of wish fulfilment.\n\nI imagine it would have been quite poignant for Jonas, hearing his story\nconflated with a (to him) ancient myth - his past lost in deep time etc\netc. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492AF8DBC@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "from": { "name": "Eric Ortlund", "address": "eortlund at briercrest.ca" }, "date": "2007-11-27T17:57:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<474C4592.90903@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi Jeff - \n \nThis is a very interesting answer: I'm suspicious that the story does\nwork on several levels/apply in several different directions. The\nidentity of both Jonas and Severian is, of course, problematic: both\nchange into something else (Jonas into something at least partially\nhuman after his ship crashes, and Severian after he dies in Urth of the\nNew Sun and is re-constituted as an eidelon or aquastor or whatever).\nAnd both sail on ships. So the man fleshed from dreams might be a kind\nof allegory (at least partially) for either of their lives.\n\nIt's difficult to disassociate the naviscaput (navis = ship, caput =\nhead) from Abaia. But I wonder if the \"Pelagic Argosy\" might hint in\nboth ways . . . as a \"ship of the deeps\" or something like that, it\nmight hint at Abaia and the forces of chaos coming out of the sea to\nstorm the land. The fact that Vodalus is in league with these powers\nwould support that. On the other hand, I wonder if it is more likely\nthat, since the phrase is of the ship of the deeps sighting land, it\nrefers more hopefully to the ships Sev sails on - the one to Yesod, and\nthe one on Urth after the flood destroys everything. That the ship\nsights land is a hopeful sign; it can come to rest (whether on Yesod or\na purged Urth). Ironically, Vodulas is speaking better than he knows\nabout the coming of the new sun. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492AF8DE0@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "from": { "name": "Eric Ortlund", "address": "eortlund at briercrest.ca" }, "date": "2007-11-27T18:10:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370711270934w34193140m7837bf9d0dadc402@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That quote about coincidence is perfect; I gotta remember that.\n\nThanks for the superb answers; it's deeply satisfying to see the deeper\ncoherence to this story lurking beneath the whirlwind of events.\n\nI'm again struck by the \"repetition\" of themes in Wolfe - and I don't at\nall mean that as a criticism, because his themes are supberb! - but\npeople don't tend to stay who they are in his books. Obviously Silk is\nthe parade example of this, but it also happens in WK with Ben. It's\nlike the same issues keep coming up in Wolfe's mind, surfacing\nrepeatedly in his novels.\n\nAs far as quercine penetralia - i.e., the inner recesses (penetralia) of\nan oak (quercine) - I have absolutely no idea. Oak trees don't seem to\nshow up anywhere else in the book. Ships do, but oak trees? \n\nNot to belabor this, but I'm noticing this time through the BHS the\nintentional ambiguity of Severian's character - or, rather, the names\nassociated with him. He's constantly called Death (by the Autarch, by\nDr. Talos) - which is true, since he's going to destroy the world in\nbringing about the New Sun. But when Dorcas and Sev talk after being\nreunited before the play in the House Absolute, as I remember, Dorcas\ncalls Severian life, and says that the name Death is something of a\ndeceitful insult given him by Talos. Dorcas is right, of course,\nbecause Severian will renew everything; and it is an interesting comment\non Talos' character, as if he's trying to obscure what the New Sun will\nbring about.\n\nOne more comment and I promise to stop: I couldn't help noticing how\nSeverian launches into a description of the beauty of the gardens in\nwhich they perform their play (before giving the text of the play) just\nafter telling how he essentially rapes Jolenta and breaks Dorcas' heart\n- almost as if he's trying to distract attention from the terrible thing\nhe's done. It reminded me of his narration of the execution of . . .\nblast, what's her name, the woman he executes in Saltus, who says she\nforgives everyone. The moral proportions of the story are all wrong -\nthe man is reading the edict, which asks for forgiveness for the persons\ndoing the execution, but Severian and the crowd see the execution as a\nmatter of entertainment or simply doing one's job well (when talking\nwith Jonas in the hotel later, all Severian says is that he did his job\nwell - that's all he cares about). The contrast between Morwenna (is\nthat her name?) forgiving her executors and Severian pracing around the\nstage not once but four times, holding her severed head, celebrating the\nskill with which he killed her while the crowd roars, oblivious to the\nmoral import of his victim forgiving him, couldn't be uglier. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T18:11:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492AF8DA3@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not so sure that he \"had it all planned out\".\n \nIf you read Wolfe's interviews its perfectely clear that he did not plan out the whole Book from the start. It began as a short story that eventually grew out into 4 volumes. He must have changed details a ton of times, going back and forth untill the books got their final form. Even the theatrhical play in the House Absolute was added as filler when Wolfe realized that the 3rd book was significantly larger than the other two and he decided that he needed 4...\n \nAs for the the time travel in Urth of the New Sun I'm sure he had some ideas when he wrote the Book, but I doubt he had much of it in his head. Wolfe has said that he wrote Urth because his editor asked it and that he had no plans to write it at all.\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T18:45:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370711270934w34193140m7837bf9d0dadc402@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 27, 2007, at 11:34 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nThe bit about a hero fleshed from dreams foreshadows\nthe concept of \"aquastors\" and in particular the fact that the \nSeverian who\nbecomes the New Sun is himself an aquastor, fleshed from his own will\n(dream)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This may relate to 1 Corinthians 15:44, where Paul describes the \nresurrection body as \"soma pneumatikon\", as opposed to the \"soma \npsuchikon\" that we are born with. English translations of this verse \nare difficult, because it opposes two concepts that we think of \nsynonymous, or nearly so.\n\nPneuma is usually translated: \"spirit\", or \"breath\". Psuche is \n\"soul\" or \"life\", also sometimes \"breath\". Most translations of 1Cor \n15:44 have the resurrection body being a \"spiritual body\". Many \ntranslations then render \"soma psuchikon\" as \"physical body\", because \nthe opposite of a spiritual body must be a physical one, never mind \nwhat the text actually says. The translation I hate the least \n(linked below) has \"natural body\" for \"soma psuchikon\", which is \nsomewhat less of a distortion, but still obviously a gloss on the \ntext. A fair translation of this passage would admit that we really \ndon't know what Paul meant by opposing psuchikon to pneumatikon, \nperhaps by just adjectivizing the word \"soul\".\n\n\"It is sown a soulish body; it is raised a spiritual body.\"\n\nN. T. Wright, from whom I got all this (not being a Greek scholar), \nsuggests translating the terms as \"soul-driven\" versus \"spirit- \ndriven\". This leads me back to wondering whether Wolfe, whatever his \nideas about the soma psuchikon, intended the aquastor to be a soma \npneumatikon. Dan'l's bit about \"fleshed from his own will\" made me \nthink of it.\n\nAfter I wrote all this, I went a-Googling for aquastor references, \nand I found this in an alchemical lexicon:\n\nhttp://www.rexresearch.com/rulandus/rulxa.htm\nAQUASTOR --- is a simulaerum, which stands for a thing, but is not \nthe thing itself.\n\nI also found an alternate spelling of \"aquaster\". I don't see \nanything in the list archives making this connection, but it sure \nseems like the kind of thing Robert Borski would have uncovered before.\n\nThis origin could be seen as undermining my identification of the \naquastor as a soma pneumatikon.\n\n-----\nhttp://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=1+cor+15%3A42-46" } ] }, { "message_id": "<92844A0B-8558-4290-A979-3777B75F8CE9@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T18:47:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492AF8DBC@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 27, 2007, at 11:57 AM, Eric Ortlund wrote:\nIt's difficult to disassociate the naviscaput (navis = ship, caput =\nhead) from Abaia." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ship-head makes me think of Lt. Scheisskopf in Catch-22. Juvenile, yes." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4902.67.142.130.17.1196190068.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-11-27T19:01:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 27, 2007, at 11:34 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The bit about a hero fleshed from dreams foreshadows\nthe concept of \"aquastors\" and in particular the fact that the\nSeverian who becomes the New Sun is himself an aquastor, fleshed\nfrom his own will (dream)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This may relate to 1 Corinthians 15:44, where Paul describes the\nresurrection body as \"soma pneumatikon\", as opposed to the \"soma\npsuchikon\" that we are born with. English translations of this verse\nare difficult, because it opposes two concepts that we think of\nsynonymous, or nearly so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Speak for yourself.\n\nAnyone who wants to understand scripture reads it in the original." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pneuma is usually translated: \"spirit\", or \"breath\". Psuche is\n\"soul\" or \"life\", also sometimes \"breath\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rarely. We also use breath as a synonym for life, occasionally 'the breath\nran out of him'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Most translations of 1Cor\n15:44 have the resurrection body being a \"spiritual body\". Many\ntranslations then render \"soma psuchikon\" as \"physical body\", because\nthe opposite of a spiritual body must be a physical one, never mind\nwhat the text actually says. The translation I hate the least\n(linked below) has \"natural body\" for \"soma psuchikon\", which is\nsomewhat less of a distortion, but still obviously a gloss on the\ntext. A fair translation of this passage would admit that we really\ndon't know what Paul meant by opposing psuchikon to pneumatikon,\nperhaps by just adjectivizing the word \"soul\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pardon, the differentiation between soul and spirit (breath) is ancient.\nWay older than St Paul. It's also pretty clear what is meant by the two\nterms.\n\nYou find this differentiation in every language (that I know of) that has\nbeen used to discuss theology.\n\nAnd then there's nous.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T19:05:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 27, 2007, at 12:11 PM, Pedro Pereira wrote:\nIf you read Wolfe's interviews its perfectely clear that he did not \nplan out the whole Book from the start. It began as a short story \nthat eventually grew out into 4 volumes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Summary from http://templetongate.tripod.com/genewolfe.htm of a \nrelevant bit from _The Castle of the Otter_ (which I own, but don't \ncare to run upstairs for):\n\nWolfe reports, though, that he had the four volumes completed in \nsecond draft only before he went back to the first book and gave it \nits final polish. This was done in order for all the intricacies of \nthe plot to work out to his satisfaction in the final book. One of \nthe most amazing aspects about the whole ordeal is the confidence \nshown in Wolfe's ability to \"deliver the goods\" by both Kidd and \nHartwell. Contracts for the tetralogy and a short story collection \nwere signed by all parties before either agent, editor, or publisher \nhad read one word of the work in question." } ] }, { "message_id": "<599427.52343.qm@web63911.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Recursive Loop", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T19:10:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<20071127122737.22F46DA826@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gene Wolfe's \"New Sun\" as an homage to Borges? Hmmm...maybe I've finally got the hook to toss to\nmy one friend who likes Borges but despises that darn Buck Rogers stuff.\n\n:)\n\nFPK3" } ] }, { "message_id": "<942E4C07-FC33-4124-A2E7-C568312BFB08@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T20:18:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<599427.52343.qm@web63911.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 27, 2007, at 1:10 PM, Recursive Loop wrote:\nGene Wolfe's \"New Sun\" as an homage to Borges? Hmmm...maybe I've \nfinally got the hook to toss to\nmy one friend who likes Borges but despises that darn Buck Rogers \nstuff.\n\n:)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ultan is pretty clearly Borges. I have it on good (but secondary) \nauthority that Cyby is Gary-Stu. And that, of course, makes Nessus \nBuenos Aries (which fits rather neatly).\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T20:26:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<4902.67.142.130.17.1196190068.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Brunians said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Speak for yourself.\n\nAnyone who wants to understand scripture reads it in the original." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, assuming that you're not really reading it *as* scripture. If it's the Word of God then anything essential to know that's in it can be \"understood\" in any language. If you're reading it as just a piece of literature or historical document then you're definitely correct. Though of course one has to beware of thinking one understands dead languages too well." } ] }, { "message_id": "<85704B00-45DD-4D8E-92E2-C694FAB295D3@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T20:32:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<4902.67.142.130.17.1196190068.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Nov 27, 2007, at 1:01 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n A fair translation of this passage would admit that we really\ndon't know what Paul meant by opposing psuchikon to pneumatikon,\nperhaps by just adjectivizing the word \"soul\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pardon, the differentiation between soul and spirit (breath) is \nancient.\nWay older than St Paul." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nephesh and ruah, sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's also pretty clear what is meant by the two\nterms." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I meant to refer to the distinction between the terms \"soma \npsuchikon\" and \"soma pneumatikon\", not the distinction between psuche \nand pneuma, which is better understood. And, dear Brunians, you may \nbe clear on the difference between soul and spirit, but that sets you \napart from 'most everyone I know. Mushy-thinking about resurrection \nand the afterlife seems to be a characteristic of modern, unmoored, \npost-Protestant Christianity.\n\nOn the topic of soul/psuche/nephesh, Brunians, have you read any of \nRupert Sheldrake's work on morphogenetic fields? \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<746338.49816.qm@web81407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2007-11-27T20:37:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<942E4C07-FC33-4124-A2E7-C568312BFB08@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...a reading of \"The Book Of Imaginary Beings\" will show where he got alot of ideas...\n\nAdam Thornton wrote: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 27, 2007, at 1:10 PM, Recursive Loop wrote:\nGene Wolfe's \"New Sun\" as an homage to Borges? Hmmm...maybe I've \nfinally got the hook to toss to\nmy one friend who likes Borges but despises that darn Buck Rogers \nstuff.\n\n:)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ultan is pretty clearly Borges. I have it on good (but secondary) \nauthority that Cyby is Gary-Stu. And that, of course, makes Nessus \nBuenos Aries (which fits rather neatly).\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T20:47:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<942E4C07-FC33-4124-A2E7-C568312BFB08@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "JBarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T20:50:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n_recursive_loop at yahoo.com_ (mailto:recursive_loop at yahoo.com) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gene Wolfe's \"New Sun\" as an homage to Borges?\nHmmm...maybe I've finally got the hook to toss to\nmy one friend who likes Borges but despises that\ndarn Buck Rogers stuff." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, of course. Who did you think that blind librarian was? =)\n \nJohn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T21:06:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 27, 2007, at 2:26 PM, Chris wrote:\nIf it's the Word of God then anything essential to know that's in \nit can be \"understood\" in any language." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yikes. I can smell the brimstone fuming from Brunians's next missive \nalready.\n\nI can agree with this statement insofar as it parallels the idea of \nTuring-completeness in programming languages. Anything you can do in \none Turing complete language can be done in another. But some things \nthat are easy to do in one language are extremely difficult in \nothers. Greenspun's Tenth Rule is the classic expression of this idea*.\n\nBack to human languages, Modern English is ill-suited for discussions \nhinging on the Greek words phileo, eros, and agape. This is an old \ntrope in the churches I've attended, but its hoariness doesn't \ncompletely obscure my point, I think. The word \"charity\" used to be \na good analogue of agape, but we've somehow managed to conflate \ncharity with alms.\n\nAnother way I could agree with Chris's statement is to interpret it \nas saying that God has caused the scriptures to be so constituted \nthat the important bits, what we humans need to know to get along \nwith Him, will survive the poorest honest translations.\n\n\n---\n* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun's_Tenth_Rule" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9946.67.142.130.36.1196198396.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-11-27T21:19:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Brunians said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Speak for yourself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anyone who wants to understand scripture reads it in the original." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, assuming that you're not really reading it *as* scripture. If it's\nthe Word of God then anything essential to know that's in it can be\n\"understood\" in any language. If you're reading it as just a piece of\nliterature or historical document then you're definitely correct. Though\nof course one has to beware of thinking one understands dead languages too\nwell." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I dunno about that. Quran is in Arabic. Translations of Quran are not\nQuran. Not only are the Vedas in Sanskrit, they are not written, not the\nreal ones. The real ones are held in the memory of the people who know\nthem, a specialized class of Brahmins, some of whom are brought up with\nSanskrit as their mother tongue. The process of learning Sanskrit is\nitself interesting.\n\nAny of these veda knowers could write you out the words of the vedas, but\nthose aren't the real vedas. The real vedas are the living books held in\nthe minds of the people who know them.\n\nThe Indians, especially, are adept at having something be revealed truth\nand also an historical document and also several other things.\n\nChristians, and especially Protestant Christians, tend to assume that the\nway theology works for them is the way it works for everyone. This is not\nthe case. Judaism is the closest to Christianity, and there are vast\ndifferences in the way revealed truth is treated between the two. A minor\nexample: to die as a Jew, you must recite the Sh'ma as close to death as\nyou can manage it. It is an assertion or a declaration: 'Hear Oh Israel,\n____ our God, ____ is One.\" You don't have to believe it: you can believe\nwhat you like. Belief is not all that important in Judaism. You follow the\nrules, you can simultaneously be a good Jew and believe that God is\nhostile, or nonexistant.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<15530.67.142.130.36.1196198806.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-11-27T21:26:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<85704B00-45DD-4D8E-92E2-C694FAB295D3@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 27, 2007, at 1:01 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " A fair translation of this passage would admit that we really\ndon't know what Paul meant by opposing psuchikon to pneumatikon,\nperhaps by just adjectivizing the word \"soul\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Pardon, the differentiation between soul and spirit (breath) is\nancient.\nWay older than St Paul." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nephesh and ruah, sure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's also pretty clear what is meant by the two\nterms." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I meant to refer to the distinction between the terms \"soma\npsuchikon\" and \"soma pneumatikon\", not the distinction between psuche\nand pneuma, which is better understood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a fair cop." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " And, dear Brunians," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You can call me Josh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " you may\nbe clear on the difference between soul and spirit, but that sets you\napart from 'most everyone I know." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Surely there are one or two...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Mushy-thinking about resurrection\nand the afterlife seems to be a characteristic of modern, unmoored,\npost-Protestant Christianity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Christian I'll own to, at least sometimes, if heretical from almost\neveryone's point of view, modern I'm not, post-Protestant definitely not,\nunmoored, I hope not, but it's not for me to say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the topic of soul/psuche/nephesh, Brunians, have you read any of\nRupert Sheldrake's work on morphogenetic fields?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have not, but it sounds intriguing. Titles and short description?\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T21:32:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<9946.67.142.130.36.1196198396.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 27, 2007, at 3:19 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nBelief is not all that important in Judaism. You follow the\nrules, you can simultaneously be a good Jew and believe that God is\nhostile, or nonexistant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Odysseus did not care whether Eumaeus actually believed his king was \nstill alive, so long as Eumaeus remained loyal." } ] }, { "message_id": "<15369.67.142.130.36.1196199735.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-11-27T21:42:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 27, 2007, at 3:19 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Belief is not all that important in Judaism. You follow the\nrules, you can simultaneously be a good Jew and believe that God is\nhostile, or nonexistant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Odysseus did not care whether Eumaeus actually believed his king was\nstill alive, so long as Eumaeus remained loyal." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There you go.\n\nChristianity and Islam are the only religions, as far as I know, that make\na big fuss over what one actually believes.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<474D0138.50201@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-11-28T05:48:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370711270934w34193140m7837bf9d0dadc402@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nThe ship on Sev's tomb *is* Tzadkiel's ship; at one point, it is implied\nthat there is only one ship of this sort in the Universe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you have a cite supporting this? A bas relief of the Tzadkiel \n(polygon cross-section, with masts on all sides) would not really \nresemble a single water vessel. \"Argosy\" can be multiple ships and the \nTzadkiel has certain plural traits, but the tomb-ship is IIRC always \nsingular." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nessun Sapra", "address": "nessun-sapra at web.de" }, "date": "2007-11-28T07:32:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<474D0138.50201@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----\nVon: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]Im\nAuftrag von Jeff Wilson\nGesendet: Mittwoch, 28. November 2007 06:49\nAn: The Urth Mailing List\nBetreff: Re: (urth) Questions . . .\n\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The ship on Sev's tomb *is* Tzadkiel's ship; at one point, it is implied\nthat there is only one ship of this sort in the Universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you have a cite supporting this? A bas relief of the Tzadkiel\n(polygon cross-section, with masts on all sides) would not really\nresemble a single water vessel. \"Argosy\" can be multiple ships and the\nTzadkiel has certain plural traits, but the tomb-ship is IIRC always\nsingular.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8C9FFF5EF66BB48-F7C-1D4A@webmail-mf03.sysops.aol.com>", "from": { "name": "stoneox17 at aol.com", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-11-28T16:50:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492AF8DE0@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have always assumed that \"quercine penetralia\" could be interpreted \nas\n\"heart of the (oak) wood,\" so Vodalus's messanger would be saying \"I am \nfrom\nthe heart of the wood,\" which makes sense if you think of Vodalus as a \nRobin\nHood type outlaw (which on one level he is).\n\nOf course, if it's like \"pelagic argosy,\" it has another and possibly \nseveral other\nmeanings as well. Any suggestions?\n\nPeter S.\n\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Eric Ortlund \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 1:10 pm\nSubject: Re: (urth) Questions . .\n\n...\n\nAs far as quercine penetralia - i.e., the inner recesses (penetralia) of\nan oak (quercine) - I have absolutely no idea. Oak trees don't seem to\nshow up anywhere else in the book. Ships do, but oak trees?\n\n...\n\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]\nOn Behalf Of Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\nSent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:34 AM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) Questions . . . [html][mx][spf]\n\n\nEric,\n\nThese are great questions for examples of how to unpack the layers\nof meaning Wolfe stuffs into his texts.\n\n ...\n\n 3) Is there a deeper significance to the code phrases Vodalus\ngives Severian? There's so much about ships elsewhere in the\nbook (thepelagic argosy) - the ship on the tomb Sev rests in as a\nboy, the ship he sails to Yesod in - and the Autarch drops the\nphrase to Sev. as he's talking about the higher world Severian will\neventually travel to. Or is it \"just\" a phrase?\n\n\nThere's a *lot* here.\n\nFirst, when a pelagic (deep-sea) argosy \"sights land,\" it means that the\n\nlong voyage is nearly over. This is true, but not perhaps in the way\nthat Vodalus intends.\n\nSecond, the argosy is \"pelagic\" in the sense of Pelagianism: the\nHeiroFoos are guilty of the heresy of trying to perfect humans through\nnatural means rather than relying on divine grace.\n\nThe ship on Sev's tomb *is* Tzadkiel's ship; at one point, it is implied\nthat there is only one ship of this sort in the Universe.\n\nThere are no coincidences\n [COINCIDENCE: You weren't paying attention to the other half of\n what was going on. -- Chad C. Mulligan, \"The HipCrime Vocab\"]\nin the Book of the New Sun; what seems to be a coincidence is\nalways at least a synchronicity and most likely part of someone's\nplan, if only Wolfe's map of the meanings of the Book.\n\nOne of the many things I love about the Book is that what appears\nat first to be driven by a series Dickensian coincidences turns out\nto be a causally-driven plot (though, admittedly, the causality does\nnot always work forwards in linear time).\n\n\nOn another level, of course, it's just a phrase.\n\nSomeone else wanna unpack the second password?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nI am miserable, he is miserable,\nWe are miserable.\nCan't we have a party? Would he rather have a party?\n\n-------------------------\nInvite the next generation of students to consider Briercrest College \nand\nSeminary. Visit www.briercrest.ca/refer.\n-------------------------\nThis e-mail may contain confidential and privileged proprietary \nmaterial for the\nsole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, or distribution or\ndisclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the \nintended\nrecipient, or authorized to receive the information from the recipient, \nplease\ncontact the sender by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this \nmessage." } ] }, { "message_id": "<474DA142.5080601@doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2007-11-28T17:11:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<8C9FFF5EF66BB48-F7C-1D4A@webmail-mf03.sysops.aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "stoneox17 at aol.com wrote:\nI have always assumed that \"quercine penetralia\" could be interpreted \nas\n\"heart of the (oak) wood,\" so Vodalus's messanger would be saying \"I am \nfrom\nthe heart of the wood,\" which makes sense if you think of Vodalus as a \nRobin\nHood type outlaw (which on one level he is).\n\nOf course, if it's like \"pelagic argosy,\" it has another and possibly \nseveral other\nmeanings as well. Any suggestions?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Heart of oak\" is a phrase strongly associated with (and occasionally \nmetonymically representing) the British navy." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492B2DCE5@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "from": { "name": "Eric Ortlund", "address": "eortlund at briercrest.ca" }, "date": "2007-11-30T17:46:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<8C9FFF5EF66BB48-F7C-1D4A@webmail-mf03.sysops.aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a good thought. Isn't Vodalus called \"Vodalus of the Wood\"\nelsewhere? \n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]\nOn Behalf Of stoneox17 at aol.com\nSent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:51 AM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Questions . . . [mx][spf]\n\nI have always assumed that \"quercine penetralia\" could be interpreted as\n\"heart of the (oak) wood,\" so Vodalus's messanger would be saying \"I am\nfrom the heart of the wood,\" which makes sense if you think of Vodalus\nas a Robin Hood type outlaw (which on one level he is).\n\nOf course, if it's like \"pelagic argosy,\" it has another and possibly\nseveral other meanings as well. Any suggestions?\n\nPeter S.\n\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Eric Ortlund \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 1:10 pm\nSubject: Re: (urth) Questions . .\n\n...\n\nAs far as quercine penetralia - i.e., the inner recesses (penetralia) of\nan oak (quercine) - I have absolutely no idea. Oak trees don't seem to\nshow up anywhere else in the book. Ships do, but oak trees?\n\n...\n\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]\nOn Behalf Of Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\nSent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:34 AM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) Questions . . . [html][mx][spf]\n\n\nEric,\n\nThese are great questions for examples of how to unpack the layers of\nmeaning Wolfe stuffs into his texts.\n\n ...\n\n 3) Is there a deeper significance to the code phrases Vodalus gives\nSeverian? There's so much about ships elsewhere in the book (thepelagic\nargosy) - the ship on the tomb Sev rests in as a boy, the ship he sails\nto Yesod in - and the Autarch drops the phrase to Sev. as he's talking\nabout the higher world Severian will eventually travel to. Or is it\n\"just\" a phrase?\n\n\nThere's a *lot* here.\n\nFirst, when a pelagic (deep-sea) argosy \"sights land,\" it means that the\n\nlong voyage is nearly over. This is true, but not perhaps in the way\nthat Vodalus intends.\n\nSecond, the argosy is \"pelagic\" in the sense of Pelagianism: the\nHeiroFoos are guilty of the heresy of trying to perfect humans through\nnatural means rather than relying on divine grace.\n\nThe ship on Sev's tomb *is* Tzadkiel's ship; at one point, it is implied\nthat there is only one ship of this sort in the Universe.\n\nThere are no coincidences\n [COINCIDENCE: You weren't paying attention to the other half of\n what was going on. -- Chad C. Mulligan, \"The HipCrime Vocab\"] in the\nBook of the New Sun; what seems to be a coincidence is always at least a\nsynchronicity and most likely part of someone's plan, if only Wolfe's\nmap of the meanings of the Book.\n\nOne of the many things I love about the Book is that what appears at\nfirst to be driven by a series Dickensian coincidences turns out to be a\ncausally-driven plot (though, admittedly, the causality does not always\nwork forwards in linear time).\n\n\nOn another level, of course, it's just a phrase.\n\nSomeone else wanna unpack the second password?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nI am miserable, he is miserable,\nWe are miserable.\nCan't we have a party? Would he rather have a party?\n\n-------------------------\nInvite the next generation of students to consider Briercrest College\nand Seminary. Visit www.briercrest.ca/refer.\n-------------------------\nThis e-mail may contain confidential and privileged proprietary material\nfor the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, or\ndistribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are\nnot the intended recipient, or authorized to receive the information\nfrom the recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and delete\nall copies of this message.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n________________________________________________________________________\nMore new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -\nhttp://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid\n=aolcmp00050000000003" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370711301216j52d9c5dbp3fae0692d72032cf@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-30T20:16:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Questions . . .", "in_reply_to": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492B2DCE5@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, and \"the liege of the leaves.\"\n\n(He said, making the Theoantrhopos cry.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 30, 2007 9:46 AM, Eric Ortlund wrote:\nThat's a good thought. Isn't Vodalus called \"Vodalus of the Wood\"\nelsewhere?\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]\nOn Behalf Of stoneox17 at aol.com\nSent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:51 AM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Questions . . . [mx][spf]\n\nI have always assumed that \"quercine penetralia\" could be interpreted as\n\"heart of the (oak) wood,\" so Vodalus's messanger would be saying \"I am\nfrom the heart of the wood,\" which makes sense if you think of Vodalus\nas a Robin Hood type outlaw (which on one level he is).\n\nOf course, if it's like \"pelagic argosy,\" it has another and possibly\nseveral other meanings as well. Any suggestions?\n\nPeter S.\n\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Eric Ortlund \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 1:10 pm\nSubject: Re: (urth) Questions . .\n\n...\n\nAs far as quercine penetralia - i.e., the inner recesses (penetralia) of\nan oak (quercine) - I have absolutely no idea. Oak trees don't seem to\nshow up anywhere else in the book. Ships do, but oak trees?\n\n...\n________________________________\n\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]\nOn Behalf Of Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\nSent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:34 AM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) Questions . . . [html][mx][spf]\n\n\nEric,\n\nThese are great questions for examples of how to unpack the layers of\nmeaning Wolfe stuffs into his texts.\n\n ...\n\n 3) Is there a deeper significance to the code phrases Vodalus gives\nSeverian? There's so much about ships elsewhere in the book (thepelagic\nargosy) - the ship on the tomb Sev rests in as a boy, the ship he sails\nto Yesod in - and the Autarch drops the phrase to Sev. as he's talking\nabout the higher world Severian will eventually travel to. Or is it\n\"just\" a phrase?\n\n\nThere's a *lot* here.\n\nFirst, when a pelagic (deep-sea) argosy \"sights land,\" it means that the\n\nlong voyage is nearly over. This is true, but not perhaps in the way\nthat Vodalus intends.\n\nSecond, the argosy is \"pelagic\" in the sense of Pelagianism: the\nHeiroFoos are guilty of the heresy of trying to perfect humans through\nnatural means rather than relying on divine grace.\n\nThe ship on Sev's tomb *is* Tzadkiel's ship; at one point, it is implied\nthat there is only one ship of this sort in the Universe.\n\nThere are no coincidences\n [COINCIDENCE: You weren't paying attention to the other half of\n what was going on. -- Chad C. Mulligan, \"The HipCrime Vocab\"] in the\nBook of the New Sun; what seems to be a coincidence is always at least a\nsynchronicity and most likely part of someone's plan, if only Wolfe's\nmap of the meanings of the Book.\n\nOne of the many things I love about the Book is that what appears at\nfirst to be driven by a series Dickensian coincidences turns out to be a\ncausally-driven plot (though, admittedly, the causality does not always\nwork forwards in linear time).\n\n\nOn another level, of course, it's just a phrase.\n\nSomeone else wanna unpack the second password?\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nI am miserable, he is miserable,\nWe are miserable.\nCan't we have a party? Would he rather have a party?\n\n-------------------------\nInvite the next generation of students to consider Briercrest College\nand Seminary. 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