Subject: (urth) Questions . . .

From: Eric Ortlund <eortlund at briercrest.ca>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:42:17 +0000

Dear Friends,

Forgive me again if I'm repeating old questions, but perhaps some of you
can help with the following . . .

1) What is the larger significance of the story Sev reads to Jonas about
the man fleshed from dreams?  I get that it's a re-working of the
Theseus and Minotaur story, but is it anything more than an entertaining
interlude?  Is it some kind of commentary on the surrounding narrative -
or Jonas' story?  Severian finishes the story with a dismissive comment
about it being an idle tale, but I'm suspicious something more is going
on here.

2) When Severian meets Rudesind the second time before meeting the
Autarch, is Rudesind's confusion about where they are - he keeps talking
about being back in the Citadel, and how they can check the map in
Ultan's library - intentional?  Is he hinting something to Severian?

3) Is there a deeper significance to the code phrases Vodalus gives
Severian?  There's so much about ships elsewhere in the book (the
pelagic argosy) - the ship on the tomb Sev rests in as a boy, the ship
he sails to Yesod in - and the Autarch drops the phrase to Sev. as he's
talking about the higher world Severian will eventually travel to.  Or
is it "just" a phrase?

Many thanks, 
Eric

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 03:48:42 +0000

> about it being an idle tale, but I'm suspicious something more is going

I believe this is foreshadowing of the whole hting about aquastors, 
eidolons, and other projected people.

> Ultan's library - intentional?  Is he hinting something to Severian?

I've always taken this to be a sign that the Citadel and the House 
Absolute share underground infrastructure.

> talking about the higher world Severian will eventually travel to.  Or

"pelagic" makes it a specific sort of ship, one that sails the high 
seas. This distinguishes it from the Tzadkiel, or the riverine vessel 
Severian nearly sinks in Urth. Also, argosy can be multiple ships. Hmm, 
perhaps "pelagic" is the only sort of vessel *not* encountered in 
Severian's chronicle, though the crypt would seem to depict one.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

---

From: Transentient <transentient at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 04:17:04 +0000

> Severian's chronicle, though the crypt would seem to depict one.

When I first read those lines, I went and looked up _pelagic_ and  
found a definition that I thought meant in the very deep, open sea,  
very far from land.

So a "pelagic argosy" is kind of a neat paradox in that way. There you  
are far, far from the shore, and you see the shore. What's that! I'm  
scared. See what I mean?

---

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 04:22:59 +0000

I thought "pelagic" referred to open-ocean zones -- like there are  
different *-pelagics for different depths (i.e., mesopelagic,  
epipelagic, etc.)

Argosy was, I thought, a reference to the myth of Jason and the  
Golden Fleece, a fleece said to give one the ability to fly. It would  
seem to fit with some of the other Greek allusions that Mr. Wolfe is  
fond of.

But then again, I'm no expert, certainly.

Lane

On Nov 26, 2007, at 10:17 PM, Transentient wrote:

> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 05:02:26 +0000

> seem to fit with some of the other Greek allusions that Mr. Wolfe is

No, the Argo was Jason's ship. An argosy is a voyage generically similar
to Jason's, would be my first guess.

.

---

From: David Duffy <david.duffy at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 05:28:08 +0000

> Severian's chronicle, though the crypt would seem to depict one.

One reading is that it refers to those enemies of the Commonwealth that 
have their home underwater.  Perhaps an overreading, but I quite liked
the possibility it also referred to Pelagianism (perfectability without 
grace, yada yada).

David Duffy.

---

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 05:30:57 +0000

> the possibility it also referred to Pelagianism (perfectability  

Why assume it has but one meaning? Wolfe probably intended for it to  
have different layers of meaning. He's crafty like that.

Lane

---

From: James Crossley <ishmael at drizzle.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 05:33:14 +0000

> to Jason's, would be my first guess.
Not a voyage, but a ship.  The OED says:

Hist. and poet. A merchant-vessel of the largest size and burden; esp. those
of Ragusa and Venice.

As for the etymology, the word surprisingly has naught to do with the Argo:

[App. ad. It. Ragusea, pl. Ragusee, i.e. una (nave or caracca) Ragusea, a
Ragusan (vessel or carack), best repr. by the earliest form ragusye; the
transposition in argosea, arguze, argozee, etc., is no doubt connected with
the fact that Ragusa (in Venetian, Ragusi) itself appears in 16th c. English
as Aragouse, Arragouese, Arragosa. Cf. also the prec. word, in which
Argosine seems to represent It. Ragusino, synonym of Raguseo.]

That argosies were reputed to take their name from Ragusa, is stated by
several writers of 17th c.; and the derivation is made inductively certain
by investigations made for us by Mr. A. J. Evans, showing the extent of
Ragusan trade with England, and the familiarity of Englishmen with the
Ragusee or large and richly-freighted merchant ships of Ragusa, ?Argosies
with portly saile, Like Signiors and rich Burgers on the flood [which]
ouer-peere the pettie Traffiquers That curtsie to them, do them reuerence,
As they flye by them with their wouen wings. (SHAKES. Merch. V. I. i. 9.)
No reference to the ship Argo is traceable in the early use of the word.]

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 06:30:02 +0000

>Ultan's library - intentional?  Is he hinting something to Severian?

Rudesind isn't confused. He is trying to steer Sev to the meeting with the
autarch, just as he had steered Sev to Ultan earlier. Rudesind is Inire's
man, and Inire is pulling strings, trying to get Sev moving to the Phoenix
Throne. The library and picture gallery in the Citadel are connected to the
House Absolute by way of one of Inire's space/time twisting constructs. One
can walk from one place to the other, and Rudesind does it often.

-Roy

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:26:59 +0000

Interesting and cool.

.

---

From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:27:36 +0000

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:42:17 +1100 Eric Ortlund 
<eortlund at briercrest.ca> wrote:
>1) What is the larger significance of the story Sev reads to Jonas 

>about

I think this fable might be partly a conflation of the Theseus myth 
with a story which is in fact Jonas' own. 

Something like this: The enclave of magicians is a research 
institute; the magical son is a robot; the story is perhaps a dim 
remembrance of a time when Abaia or his ilk began to oppress or 
threaten Urth, and humanity launched missions into space against 
them, crewed by robots. Jonas' voyage was one of those missions. 

The rather abrupt return-to-Athens-ending is perhaps a hint that, 
in fact, none of these missions ever returned, or not for aeons - 
the "Fortunate Cloud" was lost in the Coal Sack or whatever, and 
the story of the "victory" is really just a piece of wish 
fulfilment.

I imagine it would have been quite poignant for Jonas, hearing his 
story conflated with a (to him) ancient myth - his past lost in 
deep time etc etc.

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:55:39 +0000

On Nov 27, 2007, at 6:27 AM, <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>  

> them, crewed by robots. Jonas' voyage was one of those missions.

It's also a Borges riff; I think the story in question is "The  
Circular Ruins."  Of course there's also the one about the Minotaur  
which I thought was the source for Seventeen, having forgotten that  
"fourteen" rather than "seventeen" was "infinity" in "The House Of  
Asterion."  There's a lot of Borges going on in the first couple  
books, especially.

Adam

---

From: Jeff Eoff <jeffeoff at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:28:02 +0000

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:34:18 +0000

Eric,

These are great questions for examples of how to unpack the layers
of meaning Wolfe stuffs into his texts.

> about it being an idle tale, but I'm suspicious something more is going

At one level, of course, it's a retelling of the Greek hero-tale of Theseus
and the Minotaur. The bit about a hero fleshed from dreams foreshadows
the concept of "aquastors" and in particular the fact that the Severian who
becomes the New Sun is himself an aquastor, fleshed from his own will
(dream) when his body dies on the star-sailing vessel, who will pass
through the spacetime labyrinth to bring the New Sun and destroy the
monsters that beseige Urth.

> Ultan's library - intentional?  Is he hinting something to Severian?

I don't think Rudesind is confused; I think that the Citadel and the House
Absolute are in some way the same place. Mirrors...

> talking about the higher world Severian will eventually travel to.  Or

There's a *lot* here.

First, when a pelagic (deep-sea) argosy "sights land," it means that the
long voyage is nearly over. This is true, but not perhaps in the way that
Vodalus intends.

Second, the argosy is "pelagic" in the sense of Pelagianism: the
HeiroFoos are guilty of the heresy of trying to perfect humans through
natural means rather than relying on divine grace.

The ship on Sev's tomb *is* Tzadkiel's ship; at one point, it is implied
that there is only one ship of this sort in the Universe.

There are no coincidences
   [COINCIDENCE: You weren't paying attention to the other half of
   what was going on. -- Chad C. Mulligan, "The HipCrime Vocab"]
in the Book of the New Sun; what seems to be a coincidence is
always at least a synchronicity and most likely part of someone's
plan, if only Wolfe's map of the meanings of the Book.

One of the many things I love about the Book is that what appears
at first to be driven by a series Dickensian coincidences turns out
to be a causally-driven plot (though, admittedly, the causality does
not always work forwards in linear time).

On another level, of course, it's just a phrase.

Someone else wanna unpack the second password?

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant
-----
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer
http://www.danehyoakes.com
I am miserable, he is miserable,
We are miserable.
Can't we have a party? Would he rather have a party?
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From: Eric Ortlund <eortlund at briercrest.ca>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:42:00 +0000

Thanks for the helpful answer, Roy.

On an unrelated note, I was struck how, in his conversation with Sev,
the Autarch says that Inire has been putting together clever
contraptions since the first Autarch - which must make him very, very
old (right?).  I'm sure this has already been discussed, but Inire is
apparently a hierodule (or something of that sort).  

-----Original Message-----
From: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]
On Behalf Of Roy C. Lackey
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:30 AM
To: The Urth Mailing List
Subject: Re: (urth) Questions . . . [mx][spf]

Eric wrote:
>Autarch, is Rudesind's confusion about where they are - he keeps 
>talking about being back in the Citadel, and how they can check the map

>in Ultan's library - intentional?  Is he hinting something to Severian?

Rudesind isn't confused. He is trying to steer Sev to the meeting with
the autarch, just as he had steered Sev to Ultan earlier. Rudesind is
Inire's man, and Inire is pulling strings, trying to get Sev moving to
the Phoenix Throne. The library and picture gallery in the Citadel are
connected to the House Absolute by way of one of Inire's space/time
twisting constructs. One can walk from one place to the other, and
Rudesind does it often.

-Roy

---

From: Eric Ortlund <eortlund at briercrest.ca>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:48:40 +0000

Wow, nice answer.  I had never thought of it that way.  

Wolfe must plan these books out unto the nth degree.  As I remember, the
issue of humans sailing out into space and getting lost in time isn't
explicitly discussed until Gunnie talks about it in Urth of the NS -
which Wolfe wrote years later.  But he had it all planned out. 

-----Original Message-----
From: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]
On Behalf Of thalassocrat at nym.hush.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 6:28 AM
To: The Urth Mailing List
Subject: Re: (urth) Questions . . . [mx][spf]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:42:17 +1100 Eric Ortlund <eortlund at briercrest.ca>
wrote:
>Dear Friends,
>
>Forgive me again if I'm repeating old questions, but perhaps some of 
>you can help with the following . . .
>

>Theseus and Minotaur story, but is it anything more than an 
>entertaining interlude?  Is it some kind of commentary on the 
>surrounding narrative - or Jonas' story?  Severian finishes the story 
>with a dismissive comment about it being an idle tale, but I'm 
>suspicious something more is going on here.

I think this fable might be partly a conflation of the Theseus myth with
a story which is in fact Jonas' own. 

Something like this: The enclave of magicians is a research institute;
the magical son is a robot; the story is perhaps a dim remembrance of a
time when Abaia or his ilk began to oppress or threaten Urth, and
humanity launched missions into space against them, crewed by robots.
Jonas' voyage was one of those missions. 

The rather abrupt return-to-Athens-ending is perhaps a hint that, in
fact, none of these missions ever returned, or not for aeons - the
"Fortunate Cloud" was lost in the Coal Sack or whatever, and the story
of the "victory" is really just a piece of wish fulfilment.

I imagine it would have been quite poignant for Jonas, hearing his story
conflated with a (to him) ancient myth - his past lost in deep time etc
etc.

---

From: Eric Ortlund <eortlund at briercrest.ca>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:57:50 +0000

Hi Jeff - 
 
This is a very interesting answer: I'm suspicious that the story does
work on several levels/apply in several different directions.  The
identity of both Jonas and Severian is, of course, problematic: both
change into something else (Jonas into something at least partially
human after his ship crashes, and Severian after he dies in Urth of the
New Sun and is re-constituted as an eidelon or aquastor or whatever).
And both sail on ships.  So the man fleshed from dreams might be a kind
of allegory (at least partially) for either of their lives.

It's difficult to disassociate the naviscaput (navis = ship, caput =
head) from Abaia.  But I wonder if the "Pelagic Argosy" might hint in
both ways . . . as a "ship of the deeps" or something like that, it
might hint at Abaia and the forces of chaos coming out of the sea to
storm the land.  The fact that Vodalus is in league with these powers
would support that.  On the other hand, I wonder if it is more likely
that, since the phrase is of the ship of the deeps sighting land, it
refers more hopefully to the ships Sev sails on - the one to Yesod, and
the one on Urth after the flood destroys everything.  That the ship
sights land is a hopeful sign; it can come to rest (whether on Yesod or
a purged Urth).  Ironically, Vodulas is speaking better than he knows
about the coming of the new sun. 

________________________________

From: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]
On Behalf Of Jeff Eoff
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:28 AM
To: The Urth Mailing List
Subject: Re: (urth) Questions . . . [mx][spf]

Eric Ortlund wrote: 

	1) What is the larger significance of the story Sev reads to
Jonas about
	the man fleshed from dreams? ...

I think there are a number of things we can pull from this.  First, the
man crafted from dreams (after much toil by the magician) could be both
Jonas, as others have suggested, or possibly even the groomed New Sun,
Severian.  

I thought the black ship creature symbolized Abaia. The young ladies,
virgins I thought, that are taken by the black ship might be his brides.
This props up the "Pelagic Argosy" reference.  I always took the Pelagic
Argosy to mean Abaia and perhaps his minions (if we take the term to
mean a fleet and not one vast ship).  

Night, I believe, the dark lady who helps the hero of the story, might
also be seen as something like Tzadkiel.

	2) When Severian meets Rudesind the second time before meeting
the ...

I think, as others have stated, that Severian's Citadel and The House
Absolute are indeed connected to each other via passages, some physical,
some temporal, etc.  Also, I believe Rudesind to be a puppet of Inire,
if not something less innocent.  

Rudesind, Inire, and Fechin are all described at one point or another
(often many times) in relation to a monkey (Inire's staff, Rudesind's
old hunched form climbing the ladder, Fechin's arms).  I'm not sure
entirely what the connection is here, but I've got a feeling there is
one.  Fechin is mentioned by Rudesind and also by little Severian's
grandfather.  All of these people are, we are led to believe, quite old.
I'm only a little more than halfway reading the New Sun books again
after a few years, so maybe there's more I'm missing that appears later.

-Jeff Eoff

---

From: Eric Ortlund <eortlund at briercrest.ca>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 18:10:48 +0000

That quote about coincidence is perfect; I gotta remember that.

Thanks for the superb answers; it's deeply satisfying to see the deeper
coherence to this story lurking beneath the whirlwind of events.

I'm again struck by the "repetition" of themes in Wolfe - and I don't at
all mean that as a criticism, because his themes are supberb! - but
people don't tend to stay who they are in his books.  Obviously Silk is
the parade example of this, but it also happens in WK with Ben.  It's
like the same issues keep coming up in Wolfe's mind, surfacing
repeatedly in his novels.

As far as quercine penetralia - i.e., the inner recesses (penetralia) of
an oak (quercine) - I have absolutely no idea.  Oak trees don't seem to
show up anywhere else in the book.  Ships do, but oak trees?  

Not to belabor this, but I'm noticing this time through the BHS the
intentional ambiguity of Severian's character - or, rather, the names
associated with him.  He's constantly called Death (by the Autarch, by
Dr. Talos) - which is true, since he's going to destroy the world in
bringing about the New Sun.  But when Dorcas and Sev talk after being
reunited before the play in the House Absolute, as I remember, Dorcas
calls Severian life, and says that the name Death is something of a
deceitful insult given him by Talos.  Dorcas is right, of course,
because Severian will renew everything; and it is an interesting comment
on Talos' character, as if he's trying to obscure what the New Sun will
bring about.

One more comment and I promise to stop: I couldn't help noticing how
Severian launches into a description of the beauty of the gardens in
which they perform their play (before giving the text of the play) just
after telling how he essentially rapes Jolenta and breaks Dorcas' heart
- almost as if he's trying to distract attention from the terrible thing
he's done.  It reminded me of his narration of the execution of . . .
blast, what's her name, the woman he executes in Saltus, who says she
forgives everyone.  The moral proportions of the story are all wrong -
the man is reading the edict, which asks for forgiveness for the persons
doing the execution, but Severian and the crowd see the execution as a
matter of entertainment or simply doing one's job well (when talking
with Jonas in the hotel later, all Severian says is that he did his job
well - that's all he cares about).  The contrast between Morwenna (is
that her name?) forgiving her executors and Severian pracing around the
stage not once but four times, holding her severed head, celebrating the
skill with which he killed her while the crowd roars, oblivious to the
moral import of his victim forgiving him, couldn't be uglier.  

From: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]
On Behalf Of Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:34 AM
To: The Urth Mailing List
Subject: Re: (urth) Questions . . . [html][mx][spf]

Eric,

	1) What is the larger significance of the story Sev reads to
Jonas about
	the man fleshed from dreams?  I get that it's a re-working of
the
	Theseus and Minotaur story, but is it anything more than an
entertaining 
	interlude?  Is it some kind of commentary on the surrounding
narrative -
	or Jonas' story?  Severian finishes the story with a dismissive
comment
	about it being an idle tale, but I'm suspicious something more
is going 
	on here.

At one level, of course, it's a retelling of the Greek hero-tale of
Theseus
and the Minotaur. The bit about a hero fleshed from dreams foreshadows
the concept of "aquastors" and in particular the fact that the Severian
who 
becomes the New Sun is himself an aquastor, fleshed from his own will
(dream) when his body dies on the star-sailing vessel, who will pass 
through the spacetime labyrinth to bring the New Sun and destroy the
monsters that beseige Urth.

	2) When Severian meets Rudesind the second time before meeting
the 
	Autarch, is Rudesind's confusion about where they are - he keeps
talking
	about being back in the Citadel, and how they can check the map
in
	Ultan's library - intentional?  Is he hinting something to
Severian? 

I don't think Rudesind is confused; I think that the Citadel and the
House
Absolute are in some way the same place. Mirrors...

	3) Is there a deeper significance to the code phrases Vodalus
gives
	Severian?  There's so much about ships elsewhere in the book
(the
	pelagic argosy) - the ship on the tomb Sev rests in as a boy,
the ship
	he sails to Yesod in - and the Autarch drops the phrase to Sev.
as he's 
	talking about the higher world Severian will eventually travel
to.  Or
	is it "just" a phrase?

There's a *lot* here.

long voyage is nearly over. This is true, but not perhaps in the way
that
Vodalus intends.

---

From: Pedro Pereira <domus_artemis at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 18:11:28 +0000

I'm not so sure that he "had it all planned out".
 
If you read Wolfe's interviews its perfectely clear that he did not plan out the whole Book from the start. It began as a short story that eventually grew out into 4 volumes. He must have changed details a ton of times, going back and forth untill the books got their final form. Even the theatrhical play in the House Absolute was added as filler when Wolfe realized that the 3rd book was significantly larger than the other two and he decided that he needed 4...
 
As for the the time travel in Urth of the New Sun I'm sure he had some ideas when he wrote the Book, but I doubt he had much of it in his head. Wolfe has said that he wrote Urth because his editor asked it and that he had no plans to write it at all.
 
My opinion is that the stuff in his books are certainly interconnected to the extreme, but I doubt everything has been planed from the very begining.> From: eortlund at briercrest.ca> To: urth at lists.urth.net> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:48:40 -0600> Subject: Re: (urth) Questions . . .> > Wow, nice answer. I had never thought of it that way. > > Wolfe must plan these books out unto the nth degree. As I remember, the> issue of humans sailing out into space and getting lost in time isn't> explicitly discussed until Gunnie talks about it in Urth of the NS -> which Wolfe wrote years later. But he had it all planned out. > > -----Original Message-----> From: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]> On Behalf Of thalassocrat at nym.hush.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 6:28 AM> To: The Urth Mailing List> Subject: Re: (urth) Questions . . . [mx][spf]> > > > On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:42:17 +1100 Eric Ortlund <eortlund at briercrest.ca>> wrote:> >Dear Friends,> >> >Forgive me again if I'm repeating old questions, but perhaps some of > >you can help with the following . . .> >> >1) What is the larger significance of the story Sev reads to Jonas> > >about> >the man fleshed from dreams? I get that it's a re-working of the > >Theseus and Minotaur story, but is it anything more than an > >entertaining interlude? Is it some kind of commentary on the > >surrounding narrative - or Jonas' story? Severian finishes the story > >with a dismissive comment about it being an idle tale, but I'm > >suspicious something more is going on here.> > I think this fable might be partly a conflation of the Theseus myth with> a story which is in fact Jonas' own. > > Something like this: The enclave of magicians is a research institute;> the magical son is a robot; the story is perhaps a dim remembrance of a> time when Abaia or his ilk began to oppress or threaten Urth, and> humanity launched missions into space against them, crewed by robots.> Jonas' voyage was one of those missions. > > The rather abrupt return-to-Athens-ending is perhaps a hint that, in> fact, none of these missions ever returned, or not for aeons - the> "Fortunate Cloud" was lost in the Coal Sack or whatever, and the story> of the "victory" is really just a piece of wish fulfilment.> > I imagine it would have been quite poignant for Jonas, hearing his story> conflated with a (to him) ancient myth - his past lost in deep time etc> etc. > > > > _______________________________________________> Urth Mailing List> To post, write urth at urth.net> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net> > -------------------------> Invite the next generation of students to consider Briercrest College and Seminary. Visit www.briercrest.ca/refer. > -------------------------> This e-mail may contain confidential and privileged proprietary material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, or distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, or authorized to receive the information from the recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this message.> _______________________________________________> Urth Mailing List> To post, write urth at urth.net> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
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From: Matthew King <automatthew at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 18:45:56 +0000

On Nov 27, 2007, at 11:34 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:

> The bit about a hero fleshed from dreams foreshadows
> (dream)

This may relate to 1 Corinthians 15:44, where Paul describes the  
resurrection body as "soma pneumatikon", as opposed to the "soma  
psuchikon" that we are born with.  English translations of this verse  
are difficult, because it opposes two concepts that we think of  
synonymous, or nearly so.

Pneuma is usually translated: "spirit", or "breath".  Psuche is  
"soul" or "life", also sometimes "breath".  Most translations of 1Cor  
15:44 have the resurrection body being a "spiritual body".  Many  
translations then render "soma psuchikon" as "physical body", because  
the opposite of a spiritual body must be a physical one, never mind  
what the text actually says.  The translation I hate the least  
(linked below) has "natural body" for "soma psuchikon", which is  
somewhat less of a distortion, but still obviously a gloss on the  
text.  A fair translation of this passage would admit that we really  
don't know what Paul meant by opposing psuchikon to pneumatikon,  
perhaps by just adjectivizing the word "soul".

"It is sown a soulish body; it is raised a spiritual body."

N. T. Wright, from whom I got all this (not being a Greek scholar),  
suggests translating the terms as "soul-driven" versus "spirit- 
driven".  This leads me back to wondering whether Wolfe, whatever his  
ideas about the soma psuchikon,  intended the aquastor to be a soma  
pneumatikon.  Dan'l's bit about "fleshed from his own will" made me  
think of it.

After I wrote all this, I went a-Googling for aquastor references,  
and I found this in an alchemical lexicon:

http://www.rexresearch.com/rulandus/rulxa.htm
AQUASTOR --- is a simulaerum, which stands for a thing, but is not  
the thing itself.

I also found an alternate spelling of "aquaster".  I don't see  
anything in the list archives making this connection, but it sure  
seems like the kind of thing Robert Borski would have uncovered before.

This origin could be seen as undermining my identification of the  
aquastor as a soma pneumatikon.

-----
http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=1+cor+15%3A42-46

---

From: Matthew King <automatthew at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 18:47:00 +0000

On Nov 27, 2007, at 11:57 AM, Eric Ortlund wrote:

> head) from Abaia.

Ship-head makes me think of Lt. Scheisskopf in Catch-22.  Juvenile, yes.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 19:01:08 +0000

>> the concept of "aquastors" and in particular the fact that the
>> Severian who becomes the New Sun is himself an aquastor, fleshed
>> from his own will (dream)

> synonymous, or nearly so.

Speak for yourself.

Anyone who wants to understand scripture reads it in the original.

> "soul" or "life", also sometimes "breath".

Rarely. We also use breath as a synonym for life, occasionally 'the breath
ran out of him'.

>                                        Most translations of 1Cor

Pardon, the differentiation between soul and spirit (breath) is ancient.
Way older than St Paul. It's also pretty clear what is meant by the two
terms.

You find this differentiation in every language (that I know of) that has
been used to discuss theology.

And then there's nous.

.

---

From: Matthew King <automatthew at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 19:05:07 +0000

On Nov 27, 2007, at 12:11 PM, Pedro Pereira wrote:

> If you read Wolfe's interviews its perfectely clear that he did not  
> plan out the whole Book from the start. It began as a short story  
> that eventually grew out into 4 volumes.

Summary from http://templetongate.tripod.com/genewolfe.htm of a  
relevant bit from  _The Castle of the Otter_ (which I own, but don't  
care to run upstairs for):

Wolfe reports, though, that he had the four volumes completed in  
second draft only before he went back to the first book and gave it  
its final polish. This was done in order for all the intricacies of  
the plot to work out to his satisfaction in the final book. One of  
the most amazing aspects about the whole ordeal is the confidence  
shown in Wolfe's ability to "deliver the goods" by both Kidd and  
Hartwell. Contracts for the tetralogy and a short story collection  
were signed by all parties before either agent, editor, or publisher  
had read one word of the work in question.

---

From: Recursive Loop <recursive_loop at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 19:10:04 +0000

Gene Wolfe's "New Sun" as an homage to Borges? Hmmm...maybe I've finally got the hook to toss to
my one friend who likes Borges but despises that darn Buck Rogers stuff.

:)

FPK3

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---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 20:18:28 +0000

> my one friend who likes Borges but despises that darn Buck Rogers  

Ultan is pretty clearly Borges.  I have it on good (but secondary)  
authority that Cyby is Gary-Stu.  And that, of course, makes Nessus  
Buenos Aries (which fits rather neatly).

Adam

---

From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 20:26:14 +0000

> Anyone who wants to understand scripture reads it in the original.

Well, assuming that you're not really reading it *as* scripture. If it's the Word of God then anything essential to know that's in it can be "understood" in any language. If you're reading it as just a piece of literature or historical document then you're definitely correct. Though of course one has to beware of thinking one understands dead languages too well.
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From: Matthew King <automatthew at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 20:32:12 +0000

On Nov 27, 2007, at 1:01 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

>>  A fair translation of this passage would admit that we really
> Way older than St Paul.

Nephesh and ruah, sure.

> It's also pretty clear what is meant by the two
> terms.

I meant to refer to the distinction between the terms "soma  
psuchikon" and "soma pneumatikon", not the distinction between psuche  
and pneuma, which is better understood.  And, dear Brunians, you may  
be clear on the difference between soul and spirit, but that sets you  
apart from 'most everyone I know.  Mushy-thinking about resurrection  
and the afterlife seems to be a characteristic of modern, unmoored,  
post-Protestant Christianity.

On the topic of soul/psuche/nephesh, Brunians, have you read any of  
Rupert Sheldrake's work on morphogenetic fields?

---

From: Stuart Hamm <hammstu at sbcglobal.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 20:37:51 +0000

...a reading of "The Book Of Imaginary Beings" will show where he got alot of ideas...

Adam Thornton <adam at io.com> wrote:  

Adam

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From: Pedro Pereira <domus_artemis at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 20:47:57 +0000

And Baldanders is a character taken straight from Borges' too.> From: adam at io.com> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:18:28 -0600> To: urth at lists.urth.net> Subject: Re: (urth) Questions . . .> > > On Nov 27, 2007, at 1:10 PM, Recursive Loop wrote:> > > Gene Wolfe's "New Sun" as an homage to Borges? Hmmm...maybe I've > > finally got the hook to toss to> > my one friend who likes Borges but despises that darn Buck Rogers > > stuff.> >> > :)> >> > Ultan is pretty clearly Borges. I have it on good (but secondary) > authority that Cyby is Gary-Stu. And that, of course, makes Nessus > Buenos Aries (which fits rather neatly).> > Adam> _______________________________________________> Urth Mailing List> To post, write urth at urth.net> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
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From: JBarach at aol.com <jbarach at aol.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 20:50:31 +0000

_recursive_loop at yahoo.com_ (mailto:recursive_loop at yahoo.com)   writes:
 
> Gene Wolfe's "New Sun" as an homage to Borges?
> Hmmm...maybe I've finally got the hook to toss to

Well, of course.  Who did you think that blind librarian was?   =)
 
John

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From: Matthew King <automatthew at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 21:06:27 +0000

On Nov 27, 2007, at 2:26 PM, Chris wrote:

> If it's the Word of God then anything essential to know that's in  
> it can be "understood" in any language.

Yikes.  I can smell the brimstone fuming from Brunians's next missive  
already.

I can agree with this statement insofar as it parallels the idea of  
Turing-completeness in programming languages.  Anything you can do in  
one Turing complete language can be done in another.  But some things  
that are easy to do in one language are extremely difficult in  
others.  Greenspun's Tenth Rule is the classic expression of this idea*.

Back to human languages, Modern English is ill-suited for discussions  
hinging on the Greek words phileo, eros, and agape.  This is an old  
trope in the churches I've attended, but its hoariness doesn't  
completely obscure my point, I think.  The word "charity" used to be  
a good analogue of agape, but we've somehow managed to conflate  
charity with alms.

Another way I could agree with Chris's statement is to interpret it  
as saying that God has caused the scriptures to be so constituted  
that the important bits, what we humans need to know to get along  
with Him, will survive the poorest honest translations.

---
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun's_Tenth_Rule

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 21:19:56 +0000

> Well, assuming that you're not really reading it *as* scripture. If it's
> the Word of God then anything essential to know that's in it can be
> "understood" in any language. If you're reading it as just a piece of
> literature or historical document then you're definitely correct. Though
> of course one has to beware of thinking one understands dead languages too
> well.

I dunno about that. Quran is in Arabic. Translations of Quran are not
Quran. Not only are the Vedas in Sanskrit, they are not written, not the
real ones. The real ones are held in the memory of the people who know
them, a specialized class of Brahmins, some of whom are brought up with
Sanskrit as their mother tongue. The process of learning Sanskrit is
itself interesting.

Any of these veda knowers could write you out the words of the vedas, but
those aren't the real vedas. The real vedas are the living books held in
the minds of the people who know them.

The Indians, especially, are adept at having something be revealed truth
and also an historical document and also several other things.

Christians, and especially Protestant Christians, tend to assume that the
way theology works for them is the way it works for everyone. This is not
the case. Judaism is the closest to Christianity, and there are vast
differences in the way revealed truth is treated between the two. A minor
example: to die as a Jew, you must recite the Sh'ma as close to death as
you can manage it. It is an assertion or a declaration: 'Hear Oh Israel,
____ our God, ____ is One." You don't have to believe it: you can believe
what you like. Belief is not all that important in Judaism. You follow the
rules, you can simultaneously be a good Jew and believe that God is
hostile, or nonexistant.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 21:26:46 +0000

> Nephesh and ruah, sure.

Indeed.

> and pneuma, which is better understood.

That's a fair cop.

>                                          And, dear Brunians,

You can call me Josh.

>                                                                you may
> apart from 'most everyone I know.

Surely there are one or two....

>                                     Mushy-thinking about resurrection

Well, Christian I'll own to, at least sometimes, if heretical from almost
everyone's point of view, modern I'm not, post-Protestant definitely not,
unmoored, I hope not, but it's not for me to say.

> Rupert Sheldrake's work on morphogenetic fields?

I have not, but it sounds intriguing. Titles and short description?

.

---

From: Matthew King <automatthew at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 21:32:12 +0000

On Nov 27, 2007, at 3:19 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

> Belief is not all that important in Judaism. You follow the

Odysseus did not care whether Eumaeus actually believed his king was  
still alive, so long as Eumaeus remained loyal.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 21:42:15 +0000

> still alive, so long as Eumaeus remained loyal.

There you go.

Christianity and Islam are the only religions, as far as I know, that make
a big fuss over what one actually believes.

.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 05:48:40 +0000

> that there is only one ship of this sort in the Universe.

Do you have a cite supporting this? A bas relief of the Tzadkiel 
(polygon cross-section, with masts on all sides) would not really 
resemble a single water vessel. "Argosy" can be multiple ships and the 
Tzadkiel has certain plural traits, but the tomb-ship is IIRC always 
singular.

---

From: Nessun Sapra <nessun-sapra at web.de>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 07:32:11 +0000

>-----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
>Von: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]Im
>Auftrag von Jeff Wilson
>Gesendet: Mittwoch, 28. November 2007 06:49
>An: The Urth Mailing List
>Betreff: Re: (urth) Questions . . .
>
>

"Urth", ch. 8: "We sail in and out of Time, then back again. There is only
one ship, the captain says. All the ships we hail between the galaxies or
the suns are this ship. How can I know how often they have tried, or how
often they have succeeded?"

Nessuno

---

From: stoneox17 at aol.com <stoneox17 at aol.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:50:37 +0000

I have always assumed that "quercine penetralia" could be interpreted 
as
"heart of the (oak) wood," so Vodalus's messanger would be saying "I am 
from
the heart of the wood," which makes sense if you think of Vodalus as a 
Robin
Hood type outlaw (which on one level he is).

Of course, if it's like "pelagic argosy," it has another and possibly 
several other
meanings as well.  Any suggestions?

Peter S.

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Ortlund <eortlund at briercrest.ca>
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Sent: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 1:10 pm
Subject: Re: (urth) Questions . .

...

...

Eric,

 ...

    3) Is there a deeper significance to the code phrases Vodalus
gives Severian?  There's so much about ships elsewhere in the
book (thepelagic argosy) - the ship on the tomb Sev rests in as a
boy, the ship he sails to Yesod in - and the Autarch drops the
phrase to Sev. as he's talking about the higher world Severian will
eventually travel to.  Or is it "just" a phrase?

There's a *lot* here.

that Vodalus intends.

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From: Tim Walters <walters at doubtfulpalace.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:11:30 +0000

> meanings as well.  Any suggestions?

"Heart of oak" is a phrase strongly associated with (and occasionally 
metonymically representing) the British navy.

-- 

Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com

---

From: Eric Ortlund <eortlund at briercrest.ca>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 17:46:02 +0000

That's a good thought.  Isn't Vodalus called "Vodalus of the Wood"
elsewhere? 

-----Original Message-----
From: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]
On Behalf Of stoneox17 at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:51 AM
To: urth at lists.urth.net
Subject: Re: (urth) Questions . . . [mx][spf]

I have always assumed that "quercine penetralia" could be interpreted as
"heart of the (oak) wood," so Vodalus's messanger would be saying "I am
from the heart of the wood," which makes sense if you think of Vodalus
as a Robin Hood type outlaw (which on one level he is).

Of course, if it's like "pelagic argosy," it has another and possibly
several other meanings as well.  Any suggestions?

Peter S.

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Ortlund <eortlund at briercrest.ca>
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Sent: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 1:10 pm
Subject: Re: (urth) Questions . .

...

...

Eric,

These are great questions for examples of how to unpack the layers of
meaning Wolfe stuffs into his texts.

 ...

    3) Is there a deeper significance to the code phrases Vodalus gives
Severian?  There's so much about ships elsewhere in the book (thepelagic
argosy) - the ship on the tomb Sev rests in as a boy, the ship he sails
to Yesod in - and the Autarch drops the phrase to Sev. as he's talking
about the higher world Severian will eventually travel to.  Or is it
"just" a phrase?

There's a *lot* here.

There are no coincidences
   [COINCIDENCE: You weren't paying attention to the other half of
   what was going on. -- Chad C. Mulligan, "The HipCrime Vocab"] in the
Book of the New Sun; what seems to be a coincidence is always at least a
synchronicity and most likely part of someone's plan, if only Wolfe's
map of the meanings of the Book.

One of the many things I love about the Book is that what appears at
first to be driven by a series Dickensian coincidences turns out to be a
causally-driven plot (though, admittedly, the causality does not always
work forwards in linear time).

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 20:16:10 +0000

Yes, and "the liege of the leaves."

(He said, making the Theoantrhopos cry.)

On Nov 30, 2007 9:46 AM, Eric Ortlund <eortlund at briercrest.ca> wrote:

> for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, or distribution
> or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
> please contact the sender by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this
> message.

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