{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4935", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4935, "subject": "Chris' last name *Pirate freedom*", "messages": 27, "voices": 13, "first": "2007-11-27T19:00:52+00:00", "last": "2008-01-02T19:23:58+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<1a0930df0711271100m4a61def8n55c82250c396e1fd@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Duncan Truter", "address": "dtruter at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T19:00:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chris' last name *Pirate freedom*", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi. Does anyone have any idea what Chris' last name is? He mentions it\nbut never says what it is.\n\n*spoiler*\n\n\n*spoiler*\n\nIt couldn't be Columbus, could it? Nobody really knows where Columbus\ncame from, so I suppose it's a possibility especially since time\ntravel is involved, and Columbus was around 35 when he first became\nknown which gives him 7-8 years in Cuba to raise his younger self\nproperly (wikipedia link:\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_theories_of_Christopher_Columbus)\n\nhas anyone got any devastating counter-evidence? I'm pretty sure I'm\nabout to be embarrassed.\n\nDuncan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1196197556.28913.1223548951@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "from": { "name": "Rex Lycanthrosaurus", "address": "lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm" }, "date": "2007-11-27T21:05:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chris' last name *Pirate freedom*", "in_reply_to": "<1a0930df0711271100m4a61def8n55c82250c396e1fd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:00:52 -0800, \"Duncan Truter\" \nsaid:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hi. Does anyone have any idea what Chris' last name is? He mentions it\nbut never says what it is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It couldn't be Columbus, could it? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Columbus seems unlikely, since it is neither long nor difficult to\npronounce (ditto for the variants Colombo and Col?n), about the only two\nclues we're given besides the implication Chris's last name is Italian.\nCertain historical data also suggest this is a later period than 1492,\nthough with time travel, I suppose anything's possible.\n\nIn one of my earlier PF posts, however, I suggest Chris might be named\nafter a former listmember and illuminary of these pages. That person\nI'll now further identify as (Michael) Andre-Driussi.\n\nThink about it. The name is Italian, it's long (12 letters/five\nsyllables) and up until mantis himself recently revealed here how it's\npronounced (\"...nobody can say my name,[it's] dree-YOU-see\"), I'd always\nassumed his name was pronounced 'dry-OOH-see.'\n\nWolfe also imports another real life buddy of his into the narrative,\nPat \"The Rat\" O'Leary -- so why not the lexicographic Andre-Driussi?\n\nDon't suppose anyone knows whether or not mantis's middle name is\nChristopher? Or how he acquired the dual name to begin with, by\nbirthright or marriage? (My hyphenated children bear the names of both\nmy wife and myself.) The odd thing here is that 'Driussi' seems to be a\nvariant of the name 'Andre,' which sort of makes mantis our version of\nBoutros Boutros-Ghali or Rin Tin Tin. \n\nRex (as in 'Roy') LYCAnthrosaurus (more fun with wordplay!)\n\n " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Rex Lycanthrosaurus\n lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm\n\n-- \nhttp://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software\n or over the web" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Cliff Judge", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T21:06:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chris' last name *Pirate freedom*", "in_reply_to": "<1a0930df0711271100m4a61def8n55c82250c396e1fd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 27, 2007 2:00 PM, Duncan Truter wrote:\nHi. Does anyone have any idea what Chris' last name is? He mentions it\nbut never says what it is.\n\n*spoiler*\n\n\n*spoiler*\n\nIt couldn't be Columbus, could it? Nobody really knows where Columbus\ncame from, so I suppose it's a possibility especially since time\ntravel is involved, and Columbus was around 35 when he first became\nknown which gives him 7-8 years in Cuba to raise his younger self\nproperly (wikipedia link:\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_theories_of_Christopher_Columbus)\n\nhas anyone got any devastating counter-evidence? I'm pretty sure I'm\nabout to be embarrassed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, a bit of wikipediaing leads me to guess that the pirate adventures\ntake place somewhere between the 1630s and 1670s. Isn't that a bit later\nthan Columbus?\n\nMaracaibo was founded in 1529, Portobello in 1597. Port Royal was decimated\nby and earthquake in 1697. So we're proabably somewhere in those years, but\nleaning towards the 1600's, because Burt mentions Drake beating the Spanish\nArmada, and that took place in 1597.\n\nThe events which drove the buccaneers to piracy took place in the 1630s or\nso.\n\nAnd if Captain Burt = Captain Henry Morgan, then the sacking of Portobello\ntook place in 1667. But Captain Burt might not be Captain Morgan. It's\ninteresting though, check out the wikipedia articles on Henry Morgan,\nbuccaneer, and Tortuga. Henry Morgan is known to have sacked Portobello, and\nalso to have revived buccaneer culture. There was also something in there\nabout some buccaneers having gone into woodcutting before being pulled back\ninto the lifestyle by Morgan. I apologize for the half-assed post here but\nthat's what I've surfed from Wikipedia. Wolfe made a point to remind us that\nwe shouldn't follow stuff we find online too closely in the book. :)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1a0930df0711271553s49d5c8dak8e66a71818aecd5f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Duncan Truter", "address": "dtruter at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-27T23:53:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chris' last name *pirate freedom*", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi. I edited my post a couple of times before I posted it, and managed\nto edit out the words 'time travel'. If Chris has done / will do it\ntwo times, why not three?\nSorry for mangling of message, I get this as a digest which doesn't\nallow for easy replying.\n\nsomeone wrote:\n\"\nWell, a bit of wikipediaing leads me to guess that the pirate adventures\ntake place somewhere between the 1630s and 1670s. Isn't that a bit later\nthan Columbus?\n\"\n\nDuncan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<915682.61603.qm@web35903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-11-28T02:46:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chris' last name *Pirate freedom*", "in_reply_to": "<1a0930df0711271100m4a61def8n55c82250c396e1fd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Duncan Truter wrote:\nHi. Does anyone have any idea what Chris' last name\nis? He mentions it\nbut never says what it is.\n\n*spoiler*\n\n\n*spoiler*\n\nIt couldn't be Columbus, could it? Nobody really\nknows where Columbus\ncame from, so I suppose it's a possibility\nespecially since time\ntravel is involved, and Columbus was around 35 when\nhe first became\nknown which gives him 7-8 years in Cuba to raise his\nyounger self\nproperly (wikipedia link:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_theories_of_Christopher_Columbus)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "has anyone got any devastating counter-evidence? I'm\npretty sure I'm\nabout to be embarrassed.\n\nDuncan" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He mentions at one point that nobody can pronounce his\nlast name. Plus, the dates are wrong. The novel is\nset long after Columbus sailed the ocean blue.\n\n\n\nhttp://www.sff.net/people/stilskin" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071128102121.27610DA820@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-11-28T10:21:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chris' last name *Pirate freedom*", "in_reply_to": "<915682.61603.qm@web35903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 06:00:52 +1100 Duncan Truter \n wrote:\nHi. Does anyone have any idea what Chris' last name is? He \nmentions it\nbut never says what it is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it has to be something Sicilian. Chris says he's Sicilian; \none of his favorite saints is St Lucy (of Syracuse in Sicily); he \ntravels under the alias \"de Messina\".\n\nDon't know where to go from there, however." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9C7F6F26-12FF-4FB1-97DD-9550AD6C5E6F@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-28T15:47:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chris' last name *pirate freedom*", "in_reply_to": "<1a0930df0711271553s49d5c8dak8e66a71818aecd5f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 27, 2007, at 5:53 PM, Duncan Truter wrote:\nHi. I edited my post a couple of times before I posted it, and managed\nto edit out the words 'time travel'. If Chris has done / will do it\ntwo times, why not three?\nSorry for mangling of message, I get this as a digest which doesn't\nallow for easy replying.\n\nsomeone wrote:\n\"\nWell, a bit of wikipediaing leads me to guess that the pirate \nadventures\ntake place somewhere between the 1630s and 1670s. Isn't that a bit \nlater\nthan Columbus?\n\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Other than there being a man in the Caribbean with the name \nChristopher, what evidence from the book suggests Columbus? I cannot \nthink of any.\n\nA third time travel jaunt would necessarily take place entirely \noutside the bounds of the narrative. Unless Fr. Chris is lying, we \nknow most of what happened on his personal timeline: from his \nfather's move to Cuba, the time slip backwards, through his pirate \ncareer, to the time slip forward, through his tenure as a priest, to \nhis imminent departure for free Cuba. He intends at the end of his \nconfession to become Brother Ignacio at the school/monastery. Fr. \nChris knows that Brother Ignacio follows young Chris in the timeslip \nbackward, and then Ignacio tools around for a few years waiting for \nChris and Novia to show up.\n\nBetween Ignacio and young Chris's initial drift back, we (and Fr. \nChris) don't really know what Ignacio was doing. But can you fit the \nwhole career of Christopher Columbus into those years?\n\nAnother point against, one that I think is very important to the \nsimplicity of the overall plot, is that more time travel would \nrequire additional time slip events. In the narrative, there are \nonly two: a backwards slip, and a forwards slip. Young Chris is \nsurprised by the backwards slip, but Fr. Chris, as Brother Ignacio, \nhitches a ride on it. Years later, Captain Chris slips forward; so \nfar as we can tell, he is alone." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4751C570.6030302@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Q. Gouvea", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2007-12-01T20:34:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Some Pirate Freedom thoughts and questions", "in_reply_to": "<9C7F6F26-12FF-4FB1-97DD-9550AD6C5E6F@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just finished reading the book, so these are off-the-cuff comments and \nquestions.\n\nI'm not really completely convinced of the \"Chris is evil\" reading. He \nstrikes me as no worse than many other Wolfe characters. Wolfe knows, I \nthink, that most of us are bad men who are protected from our own \nbadness by a veneer of civilization and lack of opportunity. Chris is \none such, and when the veneer comes off we see the real man underneath. \nHe is loyal, brave, smart, and sometimes even thoughtful. I actually \nfind him rather likeable, though he is surely a rogue, a murderer, and \nyes, somewhat selfish when it comes to his love for Novia. I'd be scared \nof him if I met him in the street, and probably wouldn't want to have \nhim over for dinner... but that's probably just as true about Ignatius \nLoyola.\n\nI think it is significant that a lot of the \"faults\" we see in Chris are \nthings that might well have not been seen as faults in the 18th century. \n This point is made repeatedly in the book, of course. A clear example \nof this is his attitude to the use of force. We see almost any use of \nforce as \"violence\". He doesn't. He has the faults of the 18th century \ntoo. He cannot see someone who does not resist the attempt at sexual \nabuse as a \"victim\"; for him, rape is rape, but sexual contact that is \nnot (physically) coerced is not.\n\nIs Chris's attitude towards the Spanish a virtue or a fault? We'd say a \nfault, folks in the 18th century would, I think, disagree. Are we that \nsure we are right?\n\nOn a purely formal level, I am glad that Wolfe avoided the \"try and \nchange the past\" territory that Witcover mentions in his review. That \nwould turn the novel into a time travel story, a logical puzzle in which \nfiguring out the ins and outs of the time paradoxes would take over the \nbook. (In general, I believe that while Wolfe's books can puzzle the \nreader, they are not intended primarily as mind games.) Avoiding that \nmorass, Wolfe gives us a portrayal of character in the context of a \nhistorical period that he clearly finds fascinating.\n\nSome unrelated points:\n\n1) Wolfe has used the motif of love for a woman as motivation many times \nbefore. (The ending of \"There Are Doors\" comes to mind, for example.) \nThis is clearly an important theme for him. He seems to be aiming for a \nmix of Dante's portrayal of Beatrice as a motivation toward sanctity and \nthe far more common portrayal of woman as temptress. With a slight \ntendency towards the Beatrician side, I think.\n\n2) The missing mother is also an important Wolfean theme. I think we \nshould be wary of jumping to the \"Chris is a clone\" conclusion. Mothers \nthat are missing or hidden appear very often in Wolfe's books.\n\n3) I'm also not sure about the conclusion that this is a different \n\"present\" (or near future) from ours. Just because of the monorail? \nPerhaps, but this assumes we're talking about the very near future. How \nlong will it take for the communists to fall in Cuba? It could easily \ntake long enough for the monorails to arrive by then.\n\n4) Which \"most famous question in the New Testament\" did Saint Jude ask?\n\n5) Why is Captain Kidd in the glossary? A privateer who turned pirate\" \nis a good description of Captain Burt.\n\n6) What is the chronology of Chris's story? How long does Brother \nIgnacio wait? I agree that it might be interesting to see if we get any \nclues as to what he was doing. Of course, he may well have simply been \nslaving away, doing the proper penitence for his acts at last, and \nlearning that patience, too, is a virtue.\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "==================================================================\nFernando Q. Gouvea\nCarter Professor of Mathematics\nColby College Editor, FOCUS\nMayflower Hill 5836 Editor, MAA Reviews\nWaterville, ME 04901\t\t\nfqgouvea at colby.edu\n\nWar is a dreadful thing, and I can respect an honest pacifist, although \nI think he is entirely mistaken. What I cannot understand is this sort \nof semi-pacifism you get nowadays which gives people the idea that \nthough you have to fight, you ought to do it with a long face and as if \nyou were ashamed of it.\n -- C.S. Lewis, in Mere Christianity" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071202134432.C022D22846@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-12-02T13:44:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Some Pirate Freedom thoughts and questions", "in_reply_to": "<4751C570.6030302@colby.edu>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 07:34:56 +1100 \"Fernando Q. Gouvea\" \n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "6) What is the chronology of Chris's story? How long does Brother \nIgnacio wait? I agree that it might be interesting to see if we \nget any \nclues as to what he was doing. Of course, he may well have simply \nbeen \nslaving away, doing the proper penitence for his acts at last, and " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "learning that patience, too, is a virtue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, surely not. It could only be a \"proper penance\" if he did \neverything he could to stop \"Chris1\" from turning into a murderer. \nBut he doesn't do that; he wants \"Chris1\" to do exactly what he \ndid. \n\nI bet he tells himself: \"Surely God can't blame me any more than he \ndoes already for not stopping myself from committing a sin I've \nalready committed in the past.\" Just as he tells himself: \"Surely \nGod will not blame me for breaking my vow of chastity, when that \nvow will have been made in the future, at the time I break it.\" \n\nHe's always got excuses, has Father Chris. He's a good, pious man \nright up until the point when being good & pious gets in the way of \nsomething he wants.\n\nIf you buy into a negative connotation for \"Jesuitical\", it's not \nsurprising that Loyola is one of his favorite saints.\n\n(Look what he does with the slaves from his first pirate action. He \n*wants* to set them free, but there's all these good reasons for \nnot doing it. \n\nThinking about it just bring him back to the priest in Veracruz. \nNuttin' you can do.\n\nExcept the priest was doing something: he was giving them water, \nand teaching them about God, and trying to set an example to \neverybody, so that everybody might treat each other a little better \nthan they do. Just like Chris says he always tried to do, except \nwhen he couldn't. \n\nSo what does Chris do, when he's decided he can't free the slaves? \nHe recruits some of them, gives one to his pirate-goombah as a sex \ntoy, auctions off the rest after spending some effort fattening up \nthe last of the batch, and keeps his share of the money. No telling \nthem about God or setting an example. \n\nAnd when the nasty Spanish steal \"his\" money from him - the money \nhe's kept from the sale of the ship and the slaves, unspent - he's \njust gotta become a pirate, because they forced him into it. \n\nHis hypocrisy is appalling.)\n\nHere's what I think \"Chris2\" was doing in Cuba, before the time-\nslip. I think he was working for his father, or at least getting \nclose to him. His father would like the man he's become. He'd feel \ngood about sending young Chris to the monastery if \"Ignacio\" was \nthere to keep an eye on him and teach him stuff. He'd say to Chris: \n\"You do what that tall priest with the beat-up face tells you to \ndo. He's a stand-up guy, for a priest. He doesn't get you down the \nway abbotts do.\" \n\nAnd while Chris and Ignacio are working away in the Dominican \nfields, Ignacio would be telling Chris stuff, hinting about girls, \nand how everybody else in the monastery is a leccacazzi, and how \nmuch the outside world has to offer. How everything is OK if you \nlove God and he is your friend. How it's OK if you just do what you \ncan do.\n\nChris speaks of Ignacio many times to Novia - so she says. She says \nhe told her Ignacio was a second father to him. She says he told \nher he would trust Ignacio more than he'd trust himself. \n\nBut I don't think he reports *any* conversation with Ignacio, from \nthe monastery time. Nothing that was said, nothing that he learned \nfrom him, nothing of what must have been his greatest intimacy in \nthat place. \n\nWhy is that? Well, I think the answer is pretty obvious." } ] }, { "message_id": "<771912.96347.qm@web44914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "paul witcover", "address": "gdeonn at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-12-02T15:19:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Some Pirate Freedom thoughts and questions", "in_reply_to": "<20071202134432.C022D22846@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote: On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 07:34:56 +1100 \"Fernando Q. Gouvea\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "6) What is the chronology of Chris's story? How long does Brother \nIgnacio wait? I agree that it might be interesting to see if we \nget any \nclues as to what he was doing. Of course, he may well have simply \nbeen \nslaving away, doing the proper penitence for his acts at last, and " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "learning that patience, too, is a virtue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's what I think \"Chris2\" was doing in Cuba, before the time-\nslip. I think he was working for his father, or at least getting \nclose to him. His father would like the man he's become. He'd feel \ngood about sending young Chris to the monastery if \"Ignacio\" was \nthere to keep an eye on him and teach him stuff. He'd say to Chris: \n\"You do what that tall priest with the beat-up face tells you to \ndo. He's a stand-up guy, for a priest. He doesn't get you down the \nway abbotts do.\" \n\nAnd while Chris and Ignacio are working away in the Dominican \nfields, Ignacio would be telling Chris stuff, hinting about girls, \nand how everybody else in the monastery is a leccacazzi, and how \nmuch the outside world has to offer. How everything is OK if you \nlove God and he is your friend. How it's OK if you just do what you \ncan do.\n\nChris speaks of Ignacio many times to Novia - so she says. She says \nhe told her Ignacio was a second father to him. She says he told \nher he would trust Ignacio more than he'd trust himself. \n\nBut I don't think he reports *any* conversation with Ignacio, from \nthe monastery time. Nothing that was said, nothing that he learned \nfrom him, nothing of what must have been his greatest intimacy in \nthat place. \n\nWhy is that? Well, I think the answer is pretty obvious.\n\n***\n \n I'm not sure I agree that Chris2 meets his father (who may, after all, be himself, if he is a clone); at least, I don't see any definite evidence for it. But otherwise I think you're spot on as to the relationship between Chris1 and Chris2. It's when trying to figure out who came first, 1 or 2, and thus who bears primary moral responsiblity for what follows, that the time travel paradoxes really kick in. \n \n My fantasy of what happens after Chris2 has Novia all to himself is that, when he spills his story to her, she grabs the nearest knife and eviscerates him.\n \n The similarity of \"wiseguy\" and \"Lesage\" led me to wonder if that pirate is really another iteration of Chris, and whether Chris's father is Lesage -- and there might be more than one temporal loop involved -- but when I saw Wolfe at the World Fantasy Convention, I asked him explicitly about this, and his response was \"No, I hadn't thought of that. You're smarter than I am.\" I protested the contrary! \n \n \n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071202165121.568B62283E@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-12-02T16:51:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Some Pirate Freedom thoughts and questions", "in_reply_to": "<771912.96347.qm@web44914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 02:19:23 +1100 paul witcover \nwrote:\n \n I'm not sure I agree that Chris2 meets his father (who may, \nafter all, be himself, if he is a clone); at least, I don't see \nany definite evidence for it. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But \"himself\" with a beat-up face, taller and possibly engineered \nin other ways - so maybe not a huge suprise if he doesn't recognise \n\"Ignacio\". \n\nThere's perhaps two things which lend a bit of support to my story. \n\n\nFirst, \"Chris2\" deciding not to go to Jersey: 'What if he did not \nenroll me in the monastery school because of something I (\"the tall \npriest with the beat-up face\", he would call me) happened to say to \nhim?'\n\nWhy does he imagine a particular description? Because it was a one \nhis father had used when he was a kid, talking about Ignacio?\n\nSecond: more complicated, but it might also help explain why he \ncame to be in the monastery. Chris speculates that his father \"must \nhave given the monastery fifty thousand or so, because nothing was \nsaid about payment in all the years I was there\". \n\nI think \"Ignacio\" paid the fees. He knows where the treasure is \nburied. He's sure as hell going to check that it's still there, and \nbeing the avaricious little sod that he is, he will dig it up. He \nconverts it, and uses some of the proceeds to pay the school fees. \nHe takes the remainder with him in some negotiable form when he \ngoes back in time.\n\nHow did he convert the treasure? He partnered up with his father. \n\n\"Ignacio's\" cut: some cash. And Chris. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4752E9CB.8010803@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Q. Gouvêa", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2007-12-02T17:22:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Some Pirate Freedom thoughts and questions", "in_reply_to": "<20071202134432.C022D22846@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\nHe's always got excuses, has Father Chris. He's a good, pious man \nright up until the point when being good & pious gets in the way of \nsomething he wants.\n\n(...)\nHis hypocrisy is appalling.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, no more appalling than the hypocrisy of many religious folk \nthroughout the centuries (and I speak as one of them). Yes, he does \nstand faithful to his faith until it gets in the way of what he wants, \nand yes, he then does what he wants. Is that really so different from \nmost of us? Wolfe is smart to have Chris transgress in ways we will \ndisapprove, rather than by, say, using birth control against the \nteaching of his church.\n\nI'm curious about this emotional reaction to Chris's misdeeds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here's what I think \"Chris2\" was doing in Cuba, before the time-\nslip." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that's fairly easy to guess, though my guess wouldn't include \nthe direct connection with his father you think might have happened. But \nthe interesting question to me is what he was doing *after* Chris leaves \nCuba. That, after all, is the part the narrator doesn't yet know about. \nIf there's any redemption for Chris, that is the natural place for it. \nDoes anything Ignacio says at the end give hints about what he might \nhave been doing since he \"lost track\" of Chris?\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "=============================================================\nFernando Q. Gouvea\nCarter Professor of Mathematics\nColby College Editor, FOCUS\n5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA Reviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://mathdl.maa.org\nhttp://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\n\nPoliticians do it to everyone." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4752EA5F.8080100@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Q. Gouvêa", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2007-12-02T17:24:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Some Pirate Freedom thoughts and questions", "in_reply_to": "<771912.96347.qm@web44914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "paul witcover wrote:\n My fantasy of what happens after Chris2 has Novia all to himself is\n that, when he spills his story to her, she grabs the nearest knife\n and eviscerates him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It does sound quite likely!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " The similarity of \"wiseguy\" and \"Lesage\" led me to wonder if that\n pirate is really another iteration of Chris, and whether Chris's\n father is Lesage -- and there might be more than one temporal loop\n involved -- but when I saw Wolfe at the World Fantasy Convention, I\n asked him explicitly about this, and his response was \"No, I hadn't\n thought of that. You're smarter than I am.\" I protested the\n contrary! " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ":-) I think the temptation to be smarter than Wolfe and to see hidden \nconnections everywhere is with us always...\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "=============================================================\nFernando Q. Gouvea\nCarter Professor of Mathematics\nColby College Editor, FOCUS\n5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA Reviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://mathdl.maa.org\nhttp://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\n\nYour lucky number is 3552664958674928. Watch for it everywhere." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4752EAC8.6000603@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Q. Gouvêa", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2007-12-02T17:26:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Some Pirate Freedom thoughts and questions", "in_reply_to": "<20071202134432.C022D22846@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\nI bet he tells himself: \"Surely God can't blame me any more than he \ndoes already for not stopping myself from committing a sin I've \nalready committed in the past.\" Just as he tells himself: \"Surely \nGod will not blame me for breaking my vow of chastity, when that \nvow will have been made in the future, at the time I break it.\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the clearest and best evidence for the \"bad Chris\" reading, I \nagree.\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "=============================================================\nFernando Q. Gouvea\nCarter Professor of Mathematics\nColby College Editor, FOCUS\n5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA Reviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://mathdl.maa.org\nhttp://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\n\nYour lucky number is 3552664958674928. Watch for it everywhere." } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.1.2.1.20071204080936.03bdbe20@pop.vippn.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan", "address": "autarch at vippn.com" }, "date": "2007-12-04T15:25:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Some Pirate Freedom thoughts and questions", "in_reply_to": "<4752EAC8.6000603@colby.edu>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fernando wrote:\n:-) I think the temptation to be smarter than Wolfe and to see hidden\nconnections everywhere is with us always..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lol. Actually reading Wolfe makes me feel very stupid and uneducated and \nit's through the effort of discovering these hidden connections that I feel \nslightly less stupid. :)\n\nAnd I'm sure they are there, all writers know far more about their \ncharacters and story that ever makes it onto the printed page." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "paul witcover wrote:\n The similarity of \"wiseguy\" and \"Lesage\" led me to wonder if that\n pirate is really another iteration of Chris, and whether Chris's\n father is Lesage -- and there might be more than one temporal loop\n involved -- but when I saw Wolfe at the World Fantasy Convention, I\n asked him explicitly about this, and his response was \"No, I hadn't\n thought of that. You're smarter than I am.\" I protested the\n contrary!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Like any good magician, Wolfe won't reveal any of his \"tricks\" lest it \ntarnish the glamor. Instead, he pays the questioner a kind compliment to \nsidetrack the discussion. Very clever!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0712080931j705fb5bi870650796847985f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-08T17:31:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Some Pirate Freedom thoughts and questions", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.1.2.1.20071204080936.03bdbe20@pop.vippn.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fernando wrote:\nI'm not really completely convinced of the \"Chris is evil\" reading. He\nstrikes me as no worse than many other Wolfe characters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He unquestionably has all of the good characteristics you list;\nWolfe's works frequently argue that there is good and evil in\neveryone. Pas could be Silk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it is significant that a lot of the \"faults\" we see in Chris are\nthings that might well have not been seen as faults in the 18th century." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think there's a similar situation here to the one some have argued\nexists with Able in Mythgarthr. Unlike most of Chris's fellow\npirates, Chris does not have the excuse of being a product of the time\nand place he finds himself. Even if we could excuse certain of\nChris's actions had they been performed by a 18th-century\ncontemporary, Chris has reason to know better, and Chris's own\ntestimony would indicate that he does know better." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He cannot see someone who does not resist the attempt at sexual\nabuse as a \"victim\"; for him, rape is rape, but sexual contact that is\nnot (physically) coerced is not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris does not openly say that a non-resisting boy is therefore not a\nvictim (\"The boys were the victims of those priests, I am not arguing\nthat they were not.\") although that may be what he really believes.\nWhat he says is that in such a case the priest had only one victim,\nwhereas the people who \"taught the boys to be sheep\" had two: the\npriest himself was a victim of those people. Therefore those people\n\"are at least as much to blame as the molester. Maybe more.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "6) What is the chronology of Chris's story? How long does Brother\nIgnacio wait?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is an important point. As Chris writes his confession, he has\nnot yet been Ignacio." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How long does Brother\nIgnacio wait? I agree that it might be interesting to see if we get any\nclues as to what he was doing. Of course, he may well have simply been\nslaving away, doing the proper penitence for his acts at last, and\nlearning that patience, too, is a virtue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to which thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\nOh, surely not. It could only be a \"proper penance\" if he did\neverything he could to stop \"Chris1\" from turning into a murderer.\nBut he doesn't do that; he wants \"Chris1\" to do exactly what he\ndid." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure this is fair to Ignacio, considering Wolfe as the writer.\n Remember what Severian told little Severian, in their conversation\nabout the zoanthrops, about what it means to be human:\n\n\"We may force a dog, sometimes, to act like a man - to walk on his\nhind legs and wear a collar and so forth. But we shouldn't and\ncouldn't force a man to act like a man.\"\n\nSo there are limits to what Ignacio can do to change Chris. He may\nhave done all he could. Remember his weeping as Chris left the gates,\nand remember that while young Chris is homeless in Old Havana, what he\nmisses most of all is \"the work [Brother Ignacio] and I had done\noutside--helping milk sometimes, herding the pigs, and weeding.\" The\ncare of animals is a big deal for Wolfe, I think. Later, Chris is\nassigned to feed Se or's parrots, which he enjoys, and he says \"It\nbrought me closer to Se or, and that soon paid off in a big way.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From reading the end of chapter three, I feel like \"Se or\" is\nimportant in some way. He \"shoots the sun at noon every day,\" and\nChris and he \"were pretty good friends. He was still Se or to me, and\nI still touched my forehead and all that.\" But I may be reading too\nmuch into this." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071209034944.36DC922840@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-12-09T03:49:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Some Pirate Freedom thoughts and questions", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0712080931j705fb5bi870650796847985f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 04:31:49 +1100 Matthew Groves \n wrote:\n\nI think there's a similar situation here to the one some have \nargued\nexists with Able in Mythgarthr. Unlike most of Chris's fellow\npirates, Chris does not have the excuse of being a product of the \ntime\nand place he finds himself. Even if we could excuse certain of\nChris's actions had they been performed by a 18th-century\ncontemporary, Chris has reason to know better, and Chris's own\ntestimony would indicate that he does know better." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Wolfe is playing around with our preconceptions about his \nthemes and other narrative tropes. \n\nIMO, WK is the story of a young guy striving to excel with respect \nto the highest ideals of a different time & place. His progress \nreflects increasingly refined conceptions of those ideals: a crude \nlout-buffoon-Hercules type to start with, and a pretty much perfect \nexemplar of self-sacrificing chivalry by the end. You might not \nlike the ideals in question (I don't, partly), but that's the \nframing of the story.\n\nPF is different: Chris strives towards the *lowest*. Even within \nhis 17th century world, piracy is seen as a Bad Thing. He doesn't \nhave to be a pirate, and certainly not a pirate captain; despite \nwhat he says over & over again, he actively chooses it. Think of \nall the opportunities he has to leave \"the life\". He doesn't, \nbecause he loves it. Look how quickly his squeamishness disappears. \nRecall his little walk with father Phil. Phil says he always feels \nlike cheering when he sees the church steeple rising against the \nsky; Chris had the same feeling once - when they raised the black \nflag on the Castillo Blanco.\n\nWe (or at least I) have become familiar with a Wolfean theme in \nwhich love + courage are redemptive, transmuting into something \nlofty even if gross to begin with. Abe's love for Dsiri draws him \nhigher and higher, and so on. \n\nIn PF, Wolfe pulls that chair out from underneath us. We expect the \nsame kind of story, but there isn't anything redemptive about \nChris' love for Novia or his courage. They just take him lower & \nlower. \n\nIMO, PF is about freedom. We have free will; morality, holiness or \nwhatever is must be chosen actively. It's possible to choose \n\"pirate freedom\" - freedom from ethical constraint - or you can \nchoose ehtical conduct (\"God's freddom\", I suppsoe). But you have \nto choose. \n\nAbe chose to be ethical - within the context in which he found \nhimself, and with an increasingly refined conception of \"ethical\"). \nChris chooses PF, actively. He pretends to himself that it wasn't a \nchoice, but that's just hypocrisy - a final layering of sin on top \nof all his other sins which I think cover just about all of the Big \nOnes.\n\nWolfe is also playing with the Graham Greene-ish trope of the \nsinner redeemed by love for another, hopelessly compromised and \ntwisted over a long stretch of constant penance and usually \nculminating in a spectacular act of self-abnegation. We (or at \nleast I) launch into PF expecting a story like that. The \n\"furniture\" is all there: the former pirate, now a priest, \nconfessing his sins, moving inexorably towards a crisis of some \nkind etc etc. \n\nWe glide over the horrific acts Chris willing participates in; we \nare on the other side of the confessional screen, and as reader-\npriests we have our forgiveness already prepared. We expect a final \nact of contrition, something to make the confession valid.\n\nThat's how Chris plays it, deliberately I think. But this story \nisn't that story. There is no contrition. Chris wants it all to \n\"happen again\".\n\n\n[As an aside on Greene: I picked up \"The Captain and the Enemy\" \nlast week in a little Australian outback town. Greene's last book, \nI think - I'd never heard of it before, but I wonder if it might \nhave been in Wolfe's mind when he wrote PF? There are some \nresonances, and not just the image of Drake waiting for the mules \nof the Spanish bullion-train, shared by the child \"enemy\" and the \ntypical Greene redeemed-sinner \"Captain\".]" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10712312145l29bcf367gcbaad27b7aa4a8e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-01-01T05:45:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Some Pirate Freedom thoughts and questions", "in_reply_to": "<20071209034944.36DC922840@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know I'm reviving an old thread here, but it seemed more sensible than\nstarting a new one. I've just finished PF, and while I really liked it, the\nUrth list has once again reminded me of how much I miss in Wolfe. So as to\navoid spoilers, I haven't read this list since PF's release, and I've missed\nit.\n\nA few quick thoughts: Does Chris ever explain why he becomes a priest? It's\nnot like he needs it for his disguise as Ignacio, a lay brother.\n\nAlso, when does he realize that he is Ignacio? I don't suppose he ever has a\nmirror to look in while he's a pirate? Also, how does Chris' face get so\n\"beat up?\" I don't recall Chris receiving any terrible blows to the head in\nthe course of his pirate adventuring, though he certainly gets beaten up\nseveral times. Perhaps we should attribute Chris' face to the natural\n\"weathering\" effect of his pirate life, though I'm not sure if he spends\nenough time in the past for such a process to occur." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "thalassocrat wrote:\nIf you buy into a negative connotation for \"Jesuitical\", it's not\nsurprising that Loyola is one of his favorite saints." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Something very similar came into my mind when I finished PF tonight - Chris\nis wonderfully good at bending logic. Perhaps he justifies his\nnon-intervention in the life of his younger self by arguing that doing so\nwould be a form of suicide by time paradox? Could Ignacio make himself cease\nto exist by stopping Chris from going back in time? Chris does, after all,\nvery explicitly state that no one has the right to suicide.\n\nAnd of course, \"Ignacio\" is the Spanish version of Ignatius... Chris clearly\nput some thought into his pseudonym." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "thalassocrat wrote:\nOh, no more appalling than the hypocrisy of many religious folk\nthroughout the centuries (and I speak as one of them). Yes, he does\nstand faithful to his faith until it gets in the way of what he wants,\nand yes, he then does what he wants. Is that really so different from\nmost of us? Wolfe is smart to have Chris transgress in ways we will\ndisapprove, rather than by, say, using birth control against the\nteaching of his church." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The one mention of \"birth control\" in the text appalls Chris: Novia\ndescribes her friends' abortions-by-boat, the thought of which, Chris says,\n\"make [him] sick.\" Here at least Chris seems in actual honest accord with\nChurch teaching.\n\nthalassocrat wrote:\n\nLook how quickly his squeamishness disappears." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Recall his little walk with father Phil. Phil says he always feels\nlike cheering when he sees the church steeple rising against the\nsky; Chris had the same feeling once - when they raised the black\nflag on the Castillo Blanco." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree, but surely it says something for Chris that he believes he should\nfeel that way? For once he seems cognizant of his own faults.\n\nAnother thought: Why doesn't Chris tell us exactly when his pirate days\nwere? All he says is that the numbers on the charts \"didn't start with\ntwenty.\" We get a few more hints, as when the exploits of, say, Cromwell,\nMorgan, etc. are mentioned as taking place approximately x years in the\npast, but I doubt we'll be able to find an exact date.\n\nWhat becomes of Chris' son? Are there any historical pirates with long and\ndifficult-to-pronounce Italian / Sicilian names? I wonder if Chris' son\nfollows his father into the family business. There's not much to indicate\nthat this would break Chris' heart.\n\nWhat did Chris do to get confused for a Dutchman or a German? I don't think\nhe even spoke those languages.\n\nFinally, I think we need to discuss the Pirates of the Caribbean films.\nWhile hardly masterpieces, they seem to be in the minds of both Wolfe and\nChris. Chris mentions the inaccuracies of the pirate films he sees on TV,\nand I'd tend to think the Pirates of the Caribbean films would be in fairly\nconstant rotation in 2010-era Florida; they're long out of theaters and ripe\nfor cable. I suppose Chris could be watching Captain Blood on a classic\nmovie channel instead, but I think Wolfe was inspired by Disney's trilogy.\nSo many parts of PF seem like rebuttals to PotC (all the mentions of rape,\nslavery, torture, etc. plus the discussions on the youth of pirates and the\nsize of pirate ships).\n\nI've only seen the first two Pirates movies, but I remember the first film\ndescribed how a person could be both \"a pirate and a good man.\" I think\nWolfe has a few things to say about such a possibility...\n\nAny thoughts on other pirate fiction that might have gone into PF? I'm\nwondering in particular about Captain Blood, which from what I gather has\nsome ideas Wolfe might like. Alas, I haven't read the book or seen the\nmovie, so I can't elaborate too much. Still, I know that the book is about a\nCatholic forced into piracy and his attempts to remain honest." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370712312357ue72aaa7vfc00851d89f3cdbd@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-01-01T07:57:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Some Pirate Freedom thoughts and questions", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10712312145l29bcf367gcbaad27b7aa4a8e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 31, 2007 9:45 PM, Matthew Keeley wrote:\nI know I'm reviving an old thread here, but it seemed more sensible than\nstarting a new one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you. I also just finished the book (got it for Christmas)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another thought: Why doesn't Chris tell us exactly when his pirate days\nwere?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly because it isn't very important. It's pretty clearly the mid\n1670s though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What becomes of Chris' son?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or daughter?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What did Chris do to get confused for a Dutchman or a German?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's blond?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Any thoughts on other pirate fiction that might have gone into PF? I'm\nwondering in particular about Captain Blood, which from what I gather has\nsome ideas Wolfe might like. Alas, I haven't read the book or seen the\nmovie, so I can't elaborate too much. Still, I know that the book is about a\nCatholic forced into piracy and his attempts to remain honest." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've not seen or read Captain Blood, but one thing worth looking at (if\nonly as a comparator) is Tim Powers' ON STRANGER TIDES. Tim is the\nother great Catholic SFF writer today, and his take on pirates is very\ndifferent indeed..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI saw a dirty overcoat at the foot of the pillar of the road/and\npropped inside was an old man whom time could not erode" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080101115843.40000118039@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-01-01T11:58:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Some Pirate Freedom thoughts and questions", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370712312357ue72aaa7vfc00851d89f3cdbd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 16:45:31 +1100 Matthew Keeley \n wrote:\nI know I'm reviving an old thread here, but it seemed more \nsensible than\nstarting a new one. I've just finished PF, and while I really \nliked it, the\nUrth list has once again reminded me of how much I miss in Wolfe. \nSo as to\navoid spoilers, I haven't read this list since PF's release, and \nI've missed\nit.\n\nA few quick thoughts: Does Chris ever explain why he becomes a \npriest? It's\nnot like he needs it for his disguise as Ignacio, a lay brother." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we find this out right at the end. After he came back from \nthe 17th century, \"this and that happened\", and he almost landed in \njail a couple of times. Then he entered the seminary. Seems pretty \nclear that he did it to escape the heat & probably also to launder \nan identity for himself. \n\nTh elaundering worked, presumably - he gets a passport." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, when does he realize that he is Ignacio? I don't suppose he \never has a\nmirror to look in while he's a pirate? Also, how does Chris' face \nget so\n\"beat up?\" I don't recall Chris receiving any terrible blows to \nthe head in\nthe course of his pirate adventuring, though he certainly gets \nbeaten up\nseveral times. Perhaps we should attribute Chris' face to the \nnatural\n\"weathering\" effect of his pirate life, though I'm not sure if he \nspends\nenough time in the past for such a process to occur." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I figured most of the beating up happened right at the beginning, \nwhen he resisted being raped. Eg: The girls in Veracruz offered to \nstraighten his nsoe for him afterwards." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "thalassocrat wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If you buy into a negative connotation for \"Jesuitical\", it's \nnot\nsurprising that Loyola is one of his favorite saints." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Something very similar came into my mind when I finished PF \ntonight - Chris\nis wonderfully good at bending logic. Perhaps he justifies his\nnon-intervention in the life of his younger self by arguing that \ndoing so\nwould be a form of suicide by time paradox? Could Ignacio make \nhimself cease\nto exist by stopping Chris from going back in time? Chris does, \nafter all,\nvery explicitly state that no one has the right to suicide.\n\nAnd of course, \"Ignacio\" is the Spanish version of Ignatius... \nChris clearly\nput some thought into his pseudonym." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Check the wall of casuistry he builds when he's talking about his \nmurder of . The Spanish \nwould have killed him anyway; he might have died in the fighting; \nChris just *had* to kill him - all the way to the final self-\ndamning conclusion, where he blames God for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "thalassocrat wrote:\n\nLook how quickly his squeamishness disappears." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Recall his little walk with father Phil. Phil says he always \nfeels\nlike cheering when he sees the church steeple rising against the\nsky; Chris had the same feeling once - when they raised the \nblack\nflag on the Castillo Blanco." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree, but surely it says something for Chris that he believes \nhe should\nfeel that way? For once he seems cognizant of his own faults.\n\nAnother thought: Why doesn't Chris tell us exactly when his pirate " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "days\nwere? All he says is that the numbers on the charts \"didn't start \nwith\ntwenty.\" We get a few more hints, as when the exploits of, say, \nCromwell,\nMorgan, etc. are mentioned as taking place approximately x years \nin the\npast, but I doubt we'll be able to find an exact date." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Check an earlier post of mine on chronology - I think you can \nnarrow down the date to around 1675." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What becomes of Chris' son? Are there any historical pirates with \nlong and\ndifficult-to-pronounce Italian / Sicilian names? I wonder if \nChris' son\nfollows his father into the family business. There's not much to \nindicate\nthat this would break Chris' heart." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Earlier I very tentatively speculated that Chris might be his own \nson." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080101120551.3B6DF118039@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-01-01T12:05:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Some Pirate Freedom thoughts and questions", "in_reply_to": "<20080101115843.40000118039@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 16:45:31 +1100 Matthew Keeley \n wrote:\nStill, I know that the book \nis about a\nCatholic forced into piracy and his attempts to remain honest." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree with that, obviously. I think it's about a guy who \ndecided he wanted to be a pirate & then blamed God for it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080101121420.38833118039@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-01-01T12:14:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Some Pirate Freedom thoughts and questions", "in_reply_to": "<20080101120551.3B6DF118039@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 23:05:50 +1100 thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\nOn Tue, 01 Jan 2008 16:45:31 +1100 Matthew Keeley \n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Still, I know that the book \nis about a\nCatholic forced into piracy and his attempts to remain honest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I disagree with that, obviously. I think it's about a guy who \ndecided he wanted to be a pirate & then blamed God for it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oops, sorry - misread that - you're referring to Capt Blood, which \nI don't know at all." } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10801010917k51bc6bcy910f1740386ecda0@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-01-01T17:17:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Some Pirate Freedom thoughts and questions", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370712312357ue72aaa7vfc00851d89f3cdbd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 1, 2008 2:57 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What becomes of Chris' son?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or daughter?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose I just assumed it would be a son for thematic reasons... rather\nsilly of me, I'm afraid." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What did Chris do to get confused for a Dutchman or a German?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He's blond?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He is, isn't he? I guess I need to work on my close-reading.\n\nFurthermore, how did that biography of Chris know he vanished when sailing\nalone? I gathered that he kept a pretty low profile after the disastrous\nmeeting with Lesage. Did Ignacio or Novia tell people the story? If so, why?\nIf they wanted to become respectable, wouldn't they want to avoid mentioning\ntheir former occupations as pirates?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Any thoughts on other pirate fiction that might have gone into PF? I'm\nwondering in particular about Captain Blood, which from what I gather\nhas\nsome ideas Wolfe might like. Alas, I haven't read the book or seen the\nmovie, so I can't elaborate too much. Still, I know that the book is\nabout a\nCatholic forced into piracy and his attempts to remain honest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've not seen or read Captain Blood, but one thing worth looking at (if\nonly as a comparator) is Tim Powers' ON STRANGER TIDES. Tim is the\nother great Catholic SFF writer today, and his take on pirates is very\ndifferent indeed..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that would be a valuable place to look. Thanks for the suggestion,\nthough I won't be able to read OST for quite a while (It's not available\nwhere I'm spending the next six months)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "JBarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2008-01-01T18:30:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Some Pirate Freedom thoughts and questions", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10801010917k51bc6bcy910f1740386ecda0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nMathew writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What did Chris do to get confused for a Dutchman or a German? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He's blond?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He is, isn't he? I guess I need to work on my close-reading. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNope. He says somewhere early in the book that he has dark hair. But I \ncan't find the page just now.\n \nJohn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10801020158v354fe9cah828db31934a0fb3b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-01-02T09:58:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Some Pirate Freedom thoughts and questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And there I thought my imagination was running away with me again. Dark hair\ndoes seem more classically Italian.\n\nSo Chris is tall, dark, and genetically engineered. How long till we start\nseriously discussing the possibility of Chris really being Severian(1)?\n\nBy the way, I think we should take some time and play the \"Name Game\" with\nPF. We all know how much Wolfe likes names, and there's already been some\ndiscussion in that vein here. Someone suggested Hoodahs (sic?) was a\nvariation on Judas? Lesage is literally \"the wise,\" right? And Valentin\nsuggests St. Valentine, Roman martyr and the namesake for Valentine's Day.\n\"Christopher\" is literally \"Christ-carrier,\" and Chris seems to carry God's\nvoice around with him, what with the praying on the ship and his \"vision\"\nbefore rescuing Hoodahs. Plus, Chrisopher is a good nautical name, not just\nbecause of Columbus, who I know someone here mentioned, but also because St.\nChristopher carried the infant Jesus over water (A river, I believe).\n\nAlso, why did Chris think Hoodahs came from the future? Just because he\nspoke English under duress? Or did Chris have reason to believe there might\nbe other time travelers on the Spanish Main?\n\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 1, 2008 1:30 PM, wrote:\n Mathew writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "What did Chris do to get confused for a Dutchman or a German?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He's blond?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He is, isn't he? I guess I need to work on my close-reading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nope. He says somewhere early in the book that he has dark hair. But I\ncan't find the page just now.\n\nJohn\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\nSee AOL's top rated recipesand easy\nways to stay in shapefor winter.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.1.2.1.20080102065813.03afae40@pop.vippn.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan", "address": "autarch at vippn.com" }, "date": "2008-01-02T13:21:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Some Pirate Freedom thoughts and questions", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10801020158v354fe9cah828db31934a0fb3b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:17 AM 1/1/2008, Matthew Keeley wrote:\nFurthermore, how did that biography of Chris know he vanished when sailing\nalone? I gathered that he kept a pretty low profile after the disastrous\nmeeting with Lesage. Did Ignacio or Novia tell people the story? If so, why?\nIf they wanted to become respectable, wouldn't they want to avoid mentioning\ntheir former occupations as pirates?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a good question. This implies there is more to Chris' history yet \nto be told. Perhaps Wolfe plans to write more. After all, Chris indicates \nrevenge as being one ot the two motives for returning...\n\nThere is no way they would admit to being pirates while living in Veracruz. \nA quick way to the gallows, though Novia may just be imprisoned since she \nwas pregnant.\n\n\nDan " } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10801021123l35091bf9g48794b997a31083d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-01-02T19:23:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Some Pirate Freedom thoughts and questions", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.1.2.1.20080102065813.03afae40@pop.vippn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 2, 2008 1:21 PM, Dan wrote:\nAt 11:17 AM 1/1/2008, Matthew Keeley wrote:\n\nThere is no way they would admit to being pirates while living in\nVeracruz.\nA quick way to the gallows, though Novia may just be imprisoned since she\nwas pregnant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, does Chris sail out from Veracruz or Havana? The biography says\nHavana, but doesn't he sail from Veracruz at the end of the book? I'd check\nif my book weren't 3000 miles away.\n\n-Matt" } ] } ] }