{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4939", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4939, "subject": "flying ship", "messages": 9, "voices": 5, "first": "2007-11-29T07:34:42+00:00", "last": "2007-12-06T09:47:13+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ashley Crill", "address": "ash_crill at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-11-29T07:34:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) flying ship", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'Ship volant' is not the only piece of evidence we have concerning the nature of the ship on Severian's tomb. Consider this bit: \nI know too in whose mausoleum I tarried as a child, that little building\nof stone with its rose, its fountain and its flying ship all graven. I\nhave disturbed my own tomb, and now I go to lie in it.\" Citadel XXXVIII\n\nSince none of the sailing vessels that Severian uses in the narrative are mentioned as ahving wings, I think its safe to assume that he does mean a ship that flies. The ship is graven on his tomb as one of the symbols of his life, and to those that built the tomb, Severian disappeared while traveling on a space ship. Its possible that the graven ship is actually the tender on which Severian flew to Tzadkiel's ship. The tender looks like a terrestrial sailing vessel according to Book of the New Sun, which could have led to the ambiguity about its nature, especially in the mind of a young Severian who may have originally thought that it was a terrestrial vessel." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4753DF96.5080907@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-12-03T10:51:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) flying ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ashley Crill wrote:\n\n'Ship volant' is not the only piece of evidence we have concerning the \nnature of the ship on Severian's tomb. Consider this bit:\n\nI know too in whose mausoleum I tarried as a child, that little building\nof stone with its rose, its fountain and its flying ship all graven. I\nhave disturbed my own tomb, and now I go to lie in it.\" Citadel XXXVIII\n\nSince none of the sailing vessels that Severian uses in the narrative\nare mentioned as ahving wings, I think its safe to assume that he\ndoes mean a ship that flies. The ship is graven on his tomb as one of\nthe symbols of his life, and to those that built the tomb, Severian\ndisappeared while traveling on a space ship. Its possible that the\ngraven ship is actually the tender on which Severian flew to\nTzadkiel's ship. The tender looks like a terrestrial sailing vessel\naccording to Book of the New Sun, which could have led to the\nambiguity about its nature, especially in the mind of a young\nSeverian who may have originally thought that it was a terrestrial\nvessel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the tender would primarily resemble a sailing vessel in that it \n would be likely to have a seaworthy hull for water landings and \ntaking advantage of less-sophisticated port facilities.\n\nPerhaps the notion of a ship with no waterline would apply. in part. If \nthe ship appears above the rose and the fountain, with the entire hull \nvisible, it might seem to be flying above the other two." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew at calmeilles.co.uk", "address": "matthew at calmeilles.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-12-03T12:05:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) flying ship", "in_reply_to": "<4753DF96.5080907@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "jwilson at io.com wrote:\n\nPerhaps the notion of a ship with no waterline would apply. in part. If \nthe ship appears above the rose and the fountain, with the entire hull \nvisible, it might seem to be flying above the other two." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What are people thinking when it says \"fountain\" here? An heraldic fountain is a bit odd.\n\nFor example the arms of Runcorn\n\nOr on a Base barry wavy of four Azure and Argent a Lymphad proper flying Flags and Pennon of St. George and the sail also Azure charged with a Garb Gold on a Chief Gules two Flaying Knives in saltire proper handles Or between as many Fountains.\n\nhttp://www.civicheraldry.co.uk/runcorn.JPG\n\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-12-03T15:42:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) flying ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "T\nmatthew at calmeilles.co.uk writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What are people thinking when it says \"fountain\" here? An heraldic fountain is a bit odd. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The reference is surely to the Vatic fountain in the House Absolute (in \nwhich a ship appears when S casts in a coin) So I asssume it's that type of \nfountain. \n\n\nhartshorn \n\n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "<9a33123d0712031404n283ba9e1u768139e1e5193a58@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2007-12-03T22:04:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) flying ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "hartshorn wrote:\nmatthew at calmeilles.co.uk writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What are people thinking when it says \"fountain\" here? An heraldic\nfountain is a bit odd." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The reference is surely to the Vatic fountain in the House Absolute (in\nwhich a ship appears when S casts in a coin) So I asssume it's that type of\nfountain." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The reference is surely to the White Fountain, that being the great\nachievement of Severian's life and everything. :-)\n\nI don't know what it looks like but as with the flying ship I don't\nthink it matters. It's what it symbolises that's significant." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4754DE48.8060100@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-12-04T04:57:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) flying ship", "in_reply_to": "<9a33123d0712031404n283ba9e1u768139e1e5193a58@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tony Ellis wrote:\nhartshorn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "matthew at calmeilles.co.uk writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What are people thinking when it says \"fountain\" here? An heraldic\nfountain is a bit odd." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The reference is surely to the Vatic fountain in the House Absolute (in\nwhich a ship appears when S casts in a coin) So I asssume it's that type of\nfountain." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The reference is surely to the White Fountain, that being the great\nachievement of Severian's life and everything. :-)\n\nI don't know what it looks like but as with the flying ship I don't\nthink it matters. It's what it symbolises that's significant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "However, a symbol has to be recognized and properly identified in order \nto convey the intended meaning. I suppose the symbolism could be \nintended solely for the reader and have no valid context in the \nfictional setting but I think most of his readers would agree Wolfe is a \nbit more careful than that." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9a33123d0712050844y7dd0b57p9000ec1564f07449@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2007-12-05T16:44:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) flying ship", "in_reply_to": "<4754DE48.8060100@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nHowever, a symbol has to be recognized and properly identified in order\nto convey the intended meaning. I suppose the symbolism could be\nintended solely for the reader and have no valid context in the\nfictional setting but I think most of his readers would agree Wolfe is a\nbit more careful than that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The symbolism does have a valid context in the fictional setting.\nSeverian, a character in the fiction, has chosen these symbols. The\nfact that other people won't recognise the meaning of one of them is\nirrelevant. He's under no obligation to create a coat of arms that\nmakes sense to anyone but himself." } ] }, { "message_id": "<5729.24.119.55.228.1196892854.squirrel@webmail.io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-12-05T22:14:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) flying ship", "in_reply_to": "<9a33123d0712050844y7dd0b57p9000ec1564f07449@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tony said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However, a symbol has to be recognized and properly identified in order\nto convey the intended meaning. I suppose the symbolism could be\nintended solely for the reader and have no valid context in the\nfictional setting but I think most of his readers would agree Wolfe is a\nbit more careful than that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The symbolism does have a valid context in the fictional setting.\nSeverian, a character in the fiction, has chosen these symbols. The\nfact that other people won't recognise the meaning of one of them is\nirrelevant. He's under no obligation to create a coat of arms that\nmakes sense to anyone but himself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So not only was Severian interred multiple times before his birth, but he\nwas the tomb builder as well?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9a33123d0712060147lf0898d5g91545633584a7a24@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2007-12-06T09:47:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) flying ship", "in_reply_to": "<5729.24.119.55.228.1196892854.squirrel@webmail.io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nSo not only was Severian interred multiple times before his birth, but he\nwas the tomb builder as well?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Anyone could have built the tomb, as far as I can see. But either\nSeverian, or someone else who knew the cosmic secrets of his life,\nmust have designed its coat of arms." } ] } ] }