Subject: (urth) flying ship

From: Ashley Crill <ash_crill at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:34:42 +0000

'Ship volant' is not the only piece of evidence we have concerning the nature of the ship on Severian's tomb. Consider this bit: 
I know too in whose mausoleum I tarried as a child, that little building
of stone with its rose, its fountain and its flying ship all graven. I
have disturbed my own tomb, and now I go to lie in it." Citadel XXXVIII

Since none of the sailing vessels that Severian uses in the narrative are mentioned as ahving wings, I think its safe to assume that he does mean a ship that flies. The ship is graven on his tomb as one of the symbols of his life, and to those that built the tomb, Severian disappeared while traveling on a space ship. Its possible that the graven ship is actually the tender on which Severian flew to Tzadkiel's ship. The tender looks like a terrestrial sailing vessel according to Book of the New Sun, which could have led to the ambiguity about its nature, especially in the mind of a young Severian who may have originally thought that it was a terrestrial vessel.

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 10:51:02 +0000

Ashley Crill wrote:
> 
> 'Ship volant' is not the only piece of evidence we have concerning the 
> nature of the ship on Severian's tomb. Consider this bit:
> 
> Since none of the sailing vessels that Severian uses in the narrative
> are mentioned as ahving wings, I think its safe to assume that he
> does mean a ship that flies. The ship is graven on his tomb as one of
> the symbols of his life, and to those that built the tomb, Severian
> disappeared while traveling on a space ship. Its possible that the
> graven ship is actually the tender on which Severian flew to
> Tzadkiel's ship. The tender looks like a terrestrial sailing vessel
> according to Book of the New Sun, which could have led to the
> ambiguity about its nature, especially in the mind of a young
> Severian who may have originally thought that it was a terrestrial
> vessel.

I think the tender would primarily resemble a sailing vessel in that it 
   would be likely to have a seaworthy hull for water landings and 
taking advantage of less-sophisticated port facilities.

Perhaps the notion of a ship with no waterline would apply. in part. If 
the ship appears above the rose and the fountain, with the entire hull 
visible, it might seem to be flying above the other two.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

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From: matthew at calmeilles.co.uk <matthew at calmeilles.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 12:05:55 +0000

> visible, it might seem to be flying above the other two.

What are people thinking when it says "fountain" here?  An heraldic fountain is a bit odd.

For example the arms of Runcorn

Or on a Base barry wavy of four Azure and Argent a Lymphad proper flying Flags and Pennon of St. George and the sail also Azure charged with a Garb Gold on a Chief Gules two Flaying Knives in saltire proper handles Or between as many Fountains.

http://www.civicheraldry.co.uk/runcorn.JPG

Matthew

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 15:42:52 +0000

T

> What are people thinking when it says "fountain" here?  An heraldic fountain is a bit odd. 

The reference is surely to the Vatic fountain in the House Absolute (in 
which a ship appears when S casts in a coin) So I asssume it's that type of 
fountain. 

hartshorn 

http://www.thenightland.co.uk 

01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545

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From: Tony Ellis <tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 22:04:59 +0000

>which a ship appears when S casts in a coin) So I asssume it's that type of

The reference is surely to the White Fountain, that being the great
achievement of Severian's life and everything. :-)

I don't know what it looks like but as with the flying ship I don't
think it matters. It's what it symbolises that's significant.

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 04:57:44 +0000

> think it matters. It's what it symbolises that's significant.

However, a symbol has to be recognized and properly identified in order 
to convey the intended meaning. I suppose the symbolism could be 
intended solely for the reader and have no valid context in the 
fictional setting but I think most of his readers would agree Wolfe is a 
bit more careful than that.

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From: Tony Ellis <tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:44:05 +0000

>bit more careful than that.

The symbolism does have a valid context in the fictional setting.
Severian, a character in the fiction, has chosen these symbols. The
fact that other people won't recognise the meaning of one of them is
irrelevant. He's under no obligation to create a coat of arms that
makes sense to anyone but himself.

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 22:14:14 +0000

> makes sense to anyone but himself.

So not only was Severian interred multiple times before his birth, but he
was the tomb builder as well?

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From: Tony Ellis <tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 09:47:13 +0000

>was the tomb builder as well?

Anyone could have built the tomb, as far as I can see. But either
Severian, or someone else who knew the cosmic secrets of his life,
must have designed its coat of arms.