{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4941", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4941, "subject": "The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "messages": 33, "voices": 15, "first": "2007-11-29T18:31:34+00:00", "last": "2008-01-10T03:58:26+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<9a33123d0711291031x18013de7j542356c4cb016501@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2007-11-29T18:31:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Mathew wrote:\n\"I know too in whose mausoleum I tarried as a child, that little building\nof stone with its rose, its fountain and its flying ship all graven. I\nhave disturbed my own tomb, and now I go to lie in it.\" Citadel XXXVIII" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This bugs me. Which Dead Kennedy, sorry, Severian would it have been\nbuilt for?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One we never meet, I think. At the end of UotNS Severian is free to\nrevisit Urth whenever he pleases, and if he died there he'd just\nself-resurrect. So there could be Severian tombs all over the place." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joel Sieh", "address": "joel.sieh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-18T21:35:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "<9a33123d0711291031x18013de7j542356c4cb016501@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It could also be a tomb fashioned by the \"original\" Severian, the\nSeverian who failed the test in UotNS, went back in time, and modified\nevents (e.g. sending Juturna to rescue his boyhood self after falling\nin the river IIRC) so that he would later succeed at the test instead\nof failing. Sev goes on a bit about this at the end of UotNS.\n\n--Joel" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 29, 2007 1:31 PM, Tony Ellis wrote:\nMathew wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"I know too in whose mausoleum I tarried as a child, that little building\nof stone with its rose, its fountain and its flying ship all graven. I\nhave disturbed my own tomb, and now I go to lie in it.\" Citadel XXXVIII" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This bugs me. Which Dead Kennedy, sorry, Severian would it have been\nbuilt for?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One we never meet, I think. At the end of UotNS Severian is free to\nrevisit Urth whenever he pleases, and if he died there he'd just\nself-resurrect. So there could be Severian tombs all over the place.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000e01c841fb$bcdc2580$63cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-12-19T04:57:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Joel Sieh wrote:\nIt could also be a tomb fashioned by the \"original\" Severian, the\nSeverian who failed the test in UotNS, went back in time, and modified\nevents (e.g. sending Juturna to rescue his boyhood self after falling\nin the river IIRC) so that he would later succeed at the test instead\nof failing. Sev goes on a bit about this at the end of UotNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't care about the mausoleum stuff, but the Juturna part intrigues me.\nThe problem with the above is that it was Sev2 (our narrator Severian) who\nspoke with Juturna in the throne room near the end of Book V about the\nboyhood near-drowning incident. Near the end of Book IV is where Sev2 spoke\nof Sev1 (the \"first Severian\"). There, Sev2 said that Sev1 hadn't drowned\neither, because someone was already messing around in his (their) life by\nthat point. So, when Sev2 spoke to Juturna about her having saved his life\nwhen he was a boy (though she had not yet saved him in her own backward\npersonal timeline, but never mind), he was referring to the incident at the\nbeginning of Book I when he shot out of the river propelled by her hand,\nobviously. Yet, if Sev1 didn't drown either -- and he obviously didn't,\nsince he went on to become autarch -- who saved *him*? You can't say that\ntime-walking Sev1 saved himself as a boy -- he wouldn't have been alive to\nbecome a time walker. Care to speculate?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8CA1015A679202C-ADC-1D7@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>", "from": { "name": "stoneox17 at aol.com", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-12-19T05:17:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "<000e01c841fb$bcdc2580$63cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Joel Sieh wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It could also be a tomb fashioned by the \"original\" Severian, the\nSeverian who failed the test in UotNS, went back in time, and modified\nevents (e.g. sending Juturna to rescue his boyhood self after falling\nin the river IIRC) so that he would later succeed at the test instead\nof failing. Sev goes on a bit about this at the end of UotNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't care about the mausoleum stuff, but the Juturna part intrigues \nme.\nThe problem with the above is that it was Sev2 (our narrator Severian) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "who" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "spoke with Juturna in the throne room near the end of Book V about the\nboyhood near-drowning incident. Near the end of Book IV is where Sev2 \nspoke\nof Sev1 (the \"first Severian\"). There, Sev2 said that Sev1 hadn't \ndrowned\neither, because someone was already messing around in his (their) life \nby\nthat point. So, when Sev2 spoke to Juturna about her having saved his \nlife\nwhen he was a boy (though she had not yet saved him in her own backward\npersonal timeline, but never mind), he was referring to the incident \nat the\nbeginning of Book I when he shot out of the river propelled by her \nhand,\nobviously. Yet, if Sev1 didn't drown either -- and he obviously didn't,\nsince he went on to become autarch -- who saved *him*? You can't say \nthat\ntime-walking Sev1 saved himself as a boy -- he wouldn't have been \nalive to\nbecome a time walker. Care to speculate?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The green man is wandering through the corridors of time looking for a\nsituation where Sev is captive so that he can free him. He seems to save\nhim from Hethor's monster in the Antechamber, although he doesn't free\nhim then -- Thecla does that. Could the green man have freed Sev1 here?\n\n-Peter S." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071220040746.GB19449@localhost>", "from": { "name": "gwern0 at gmail.com", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-20T04:07:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "<8CA1015A679202C-ADC-1D7@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 2007.12.19 00:17:57 -0500, stoneox17 at aol.com scribbled 1.8K characters:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Joel Sieh wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It could also be a tomb fashioned by the \"original\" Severian, the\nSeverian who failed the test in UotNS, went back in time, and modified\nevents (e.g. sending Juturna to rescue his boyhood self after falling\nin the river IIRC) so that he would later succeed at the test instead\nof failing. Sev goes on a bit about this at the end of UotNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't care about the mausoleum stuff, but the Juturna part intrigues\nme.\nThe problem with the above is that it was Sev2 (our narrator Severian)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "who\nspoke with Juturna in the throne room near the end of Book V about the\nboyhood near-drowning incident. Near the end of Book IV is where Sev2\nspoke\nof Sev1 (the \"first Severian\"). There, Sev2 said that Sev1 hadn't\ndrowned\neither, because someone was already messing around in his (their) life\nby\nthat point. So, when Sev2 spoke to Juturna about her having saved his\nlife\nwhen he was a boy (though she had not yet saved him in her own backward\npersonal timeline, but never mind), he was referring to the incident\nat the\nbeginning of Book I when he shot out of the river propelled by her\nhand,\nobviously. Yet, if Sev1 didn't drown either -- and he obviously didn't,\nsince he went on to become autarch -- who saved *him*? You can't say\nthat\ntime-walking Sev1 saved himself as a boy -- he wouldn't have been\nalive to\nbecome a time walker. Care to speculate?\n\nThe green man is wandering through the corridors of time looking for a\nsituation where Sev is captive so that he can free him. He seems to save\nhim from Hethor's monster in the Antechamber, although he doesn't free\nhim then -- Thecla does that. Could the green man have freed Sev1 here?\n\n-Peter S." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But doesn't that present the same problem? Yes, perhaps Sev1 and Sev2 both saved the Green Man and so he helps them out - but isn't the issue that if Sev1 hadn't been saved, he wouldn't've gone on to do any of the things which would cause various time travelers to go back and save him?\n\nOr another way: without rescue, Sev1 would've drowned and never freed the Green Man, and so the Green Man would never have been grateful to him and sought out a time where he could save Sev1. The initial rescue has to come from a non-Sev-caused source, I think. We need to be looking for someone who before the drowning incident would have the desire to see him live and go on to become Severian. So who would know of his potential and be in the position to save him? Inire, maybe." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\npicking FID DES Mole Cap-Stun timers Z7 NAAP 2.6.2. ARC" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002201c842cd$abd5bee0$27ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-12-20T06:00:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "<20071220040746.GB19449@localhost>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Peter S. wrote:\nThe green man is wandering through the corridors of time looking for a\nsituation where Sev is captive so that he can free him. He seems to save\nhim from Hethor's monster in the Antechamber, although he doesn't free\nhim then -- Thecla does that. Could the green man have freed Sev1 here?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that the Green Man was involved in the Antechamber episode,\nbut in any event it is far from certain that Sev1 ever even met the Green\nMan. Though the general outline of the life of Sev1 was the same as Sev2's\nbetween the time of the near drowning and becoming autarch, the details\nvaried considerably. Sev1 didn't have the Claw, so everything associated\nwith it, including the burning of the tent-cathedral and the Pelerines'\nflight from the city, didn't happen the same way for him. No Dorcas, no\nexcuse for Jonas to intrude himself on the theater troupe, no blue-light\nspecial for the man-apes, etc. And the Green Man came from a sunny future --\nUshas -- that Sev1 did not bring.\n\nAny other candidates?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<476A1248.8070208@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-12-20T06:57:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "<002201c842cd$abd5bee0$27ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nPeter S. wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The green man is wandering through the corridors of time looking for a\nsituation where Sev is captive so that he can free him. He seems to save\nhim from Hethor's monster in the Antechamber, although he doesn't free\nhim then -- Thecla does that. Could the green man have freed Sev1 here?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think that the Green Man was involved in the Antechamber episode,\nbut in any event it is far from certain that Sev1 ever even met the Green\nMan. Though the general outline of the life of Sev1 was the same as Sev2's\nbetween the time of the near drowning and becoming autarch, the details\nvaried considerably. Sev1 didn't have the Claw, so everything associated\nwith it, including the burning of the tent-cathedral and the Pelerines'\nflight from the city, didn't happen the same way for him. No Dorcas, no\nexcuse for Jonas to intrude himself on the theater troupe, no blue-light\nspecial for the man-apes, etc. And the Green Man came from a sunny future --\nUshas -- that Sev1 did not bring.\n\nAny other candidates?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given that Sev1 succeeded in becoming Autarch but failed in Yesod, a \npro-New Sun agent may have arranged for a change in history to drown \nhim, clearing the way for another candidate to become Autarch and win \nYesod. Then Juturna has a justifiable reason to save Sev2, hoping to \nrestore the timeline and serve Abaia by preventing the New Sun.\n\nThis would mean that the Green Man may have been lurking about, hoping \nto kill or otherwise derail Sev2, rather than save him. His greeness is \npond scum after all, making him likewise adapted to lurking camoflaged \nunder yucky Gyoll water. This also explains his exceptional change of \nmood at being given a whetstone by Sev2; touching his hand, he is able \nto feel that presence extending through time into Ushas, affirming the \narrival of the New Sun." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001a01c842e7$05846360$decb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-12-20T09:02:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "<476A1248.8070208@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:\nI don't think that the Green Man was involved in the Antechamber episode,\nbut in any event it is far from certain that Sev1 ever even met the Green\nMan. Though the general outline of the life of Sev1 was the same as\nSev2's\nbetween the time of the near drowning and becoming autarch, the details\nvaried considerably. Sev1 didn't have the Claw, so everything associated\nwith it, including the burning of the tent-cathedral and the Pelerines'\nflight from the city, didn't happen the same way for him. No Dorcas, no\nexcuse for Jonas to intrude himself on the theater troupe, no blue-light\nspecial for the man-apes, etc. And the Green Man came from a sunny\nfuture --\nUshas -- that Sev1 did not bring.\n\nAny other candidates?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given that Sev1 succeeded in becoming Autarch but failed in Yesod, a\npro-New Sun agent may have arranged for a change in history to drown\nhim, clearing the way for another candidate to become Autarch and win\nYesod. Then Juturna has a justifiable reason to save Sev2, hoping to\nrestore the timeline and serve Abaia by preventing the New Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But neither version of Severian drowned in either historical timeline. At\nthe time Juturna promised to save Sev2 in his past, Nessus had been\nunderwater for two days and the House Absolute was minutes away from\ninundation. The white fountain was at most hours away from rendezvous with\nthe Red Sun and it was unstoppable. Sev2 was near the peak of his god-like\npowers when she spoke. She knew for a fact that Sev2 had succeeded in\nbringing the New Sun. Saving Sev2's life when he was a boy would not be the\nway to stop him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This would mean that the Green Man may have been lurking about, hoping\nto kill or otherwise derail Sev2, rather than save him. His greeness is\npond scum after all, making him likewise adapted to lurking camoflaged\nunder yucky Gyoll water. This also explains his exceptional change of\nmood at being given a whetstone by Sev2; touching his hand, he is able\nto feel that presence extending through time into Ushas, affirming the\narrival of the New Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Green Man helped to rescue Sev2 from the Ascians in the northern jungle.\nHe didn't want Sev2 dead. He came from the far future where mankind had\nevolved to make use of sunlight more directly than using the medium of the\nusual food chain. He owed his very existence to the New Sun. As he told\nSeverian in chapter XXX of CITADEL, speaking of his kind, \"We are your\nchildren . . .\"\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9a33123d0712201445v3da0602ax2f84e8ba3b363d04@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2007-12-20T22:45:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "<001a01c842e7$05846360$decb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Joel wrote:\nIt could also be a tomb fashioned by the \"original\" Severian, the\nSeverian who failed the test in UotNS, went back in time, and..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and Jeff Wilson:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given that Sev1 succeeded in becoming Autarch but failed in Yesod..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where does this idea come from that 'the first Severian' failed the\ntest in Yesod? I've always understood that he passed.\n\nSeverian doesn't tell us either way, but surely the fact that the\nfirst Severian ended up with the power to walk the corridors of time\nis a pretty big hint?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<476B3A49.7000003@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-12-21T04:00:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "<9a33123d0712201445v3da0602ax2f84e8ba3b363d04@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tony Ellis wrote:\nJoel wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It could also be a tomb fashioned by the \"original\" Severian, the\nSeverian who failed the test in UotNS, went back in time, and..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and Jeff Wilson:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Given that Sev1 succeeded in becoming Autarch but failed in Yesod..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where does this idea come from that 'the first Severian' failed the\ntest in Yesod? I've always understood that he passed.\n\nSeverian doesn't tell us either way, but surely the fact that the\nfirst Severian ended up with the power to walk the corridors of time\nis a pretty big hint?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did he? Can you point out the relevant text?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<923291.23216.qm@web63904.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Recursive Loop", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-12-21T04:09:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Electric Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<002201c842cd$abd5bee0$27ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Greetings:\n\nIs \"New Sun\" or any other Wolfe out on (legal) eBooks?\n\nI'm hoping that Baen and Tor (or Tor's corporate parent and their lawyers) eventually come to a\ndeal and Baen distributes Tor's product again. It'll be DRM-free, multiple format, etc., but in\nthe meantime, I'd buy copies from anther source if that is the only way to get them.\n\n(I'm figuring I'll get through them faster and be able to annotate them if I have eBooks. Easier\nto carry around, since I'm already carrying the PDA all the time.)\n\nFPK3" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071221051520.6F57250038@mailserver9.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-12-21T05:15:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Electric Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<923291.23216.qm@web63904.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:09:08 +1100 Recursive Loop \n wrote:\nGreetings:\n\nIs \"New Sun\" or any other Wolfe out on (legal) eBooks?\n\nI'm hoping that Baen and Tor (or Tor's corporate parent and their \nlawyers) eventually come to a\ndeal and Baen distributes Tor's product again. It'll be DRM-free, \nmultiple format, etc., but in\nthe meantime, I'd buy copies from anther source if that is the \nonly way to get them.\n\n(I'm figuring I'll get through them faster and be able to annotate " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "them if I have eBooks. Easier\nto carry around, since I'm already carrying the PDA all the time.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are Kindle editions of PF and WK, for what it's worth.\n\nDoes anybody here have a Kindle? I kind of want one, but they're \nnot for sale outside the US." } ] }, { "message_id": "<002a01c84390$a6d52fc0$16c85a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-12-21T05:16:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "<476B3A49.7000003@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:\nTony Ellis wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where does this idea come from that 'the first Severian' failed the\ntest in Yesod? I've always understood that he passed.\n\nSeverian doesn't tell us either way, but surely the fact that the\nfirst Severian ended up with the power to walk the corridors of time\nis a pretty big hint?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did he? Can you point out the relevant text?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tony is right about Sev1 walking in time, if that's what you're asking\n(CITADEL, last chapter). But it still seems almost axiomatic to me that Sev1\ndid not do whatever was necessary in Yesod to win a new sun. We are told\nthat only two other autarchs, Ymar and the Old Autarch, even made the\nattempt before our narrator of URTH, Sev2, went there and succeeded.\n\nIf Sev1, sans Claw, had succeeded, why would agents of Yesod have gone back\nin time to change anything? Why mess with success? They could only screw it\nup.\n\nNot to mention the paradoxes. Had Sev1 succeeded, then the white fountain, a\nwhite hole whose light first reached Urth in Apu's era, would have covered a\nminimum of 99.9% of its journey to the Red Sun by the time our narrator was\nborn. There would be no need for Sev2 to do what had already been done.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Crossley", "address": "ishmael at drizzle.com" }, "date": "2007-12-21T05:36:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Electric Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<20071221051520.6F57250038@mailserver9.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/20/07 9:15 PM, \"thalassocrat at nym.hush.com\" \nwrote:\n\nThere are Kindle editions of PF and WK, for what it's worth.\n\nDoes anybody here have a Kindle? I kind of want one, but they're\nnot for sale outside the US." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I used to work at Amazon, and I still have a friend there who's had one for\na while. It's better than other electronic readers I've seen, and I can see\nreal early adopter types wanting one now, but I think it needs some tweaking\nbefore I'd be interested. It's a nice size and weight, but some of the\nbuttons aren't quite where they should be to make use fluid. Page turning\nseemed a hair too slow for me to feel perfectly comfortable. The visual\nquality of the text is good enough to prevent eye strain, but not on par\nwith actual print. The system for acquiring books is really easy and\neffective.\n\nThe main problem, though, is the pricing. Simply speaking, they either need\nto lower the cost of the reader or of the books. I hope book publishers\nfigure out a viable model for buying, storing and sharing texts\nelectronically more quickly than the record companies have for music.\n\nJames " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071221055124.E6BE550038@mailserver9.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-12-21T05:51:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Electric Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:36:40 +1100 James Crossley \n wrote:\n\nI used to work at Amazon, and I still have a friend there who's \nhad one for\na while. It's better than other electronic readers I've seen, and " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can see\nreal early adopter types wanting one now, but I think it needs \nsome tweaking\nbefore I'd be interested. It's a nice size and weight, but some \nof the\nbuttons aren't quite where they should be to make use fluid. Page " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "turning\nseemed a hair too slow for me to feel perfectly comfortable. The \nvisual\nquality of the text is good enough to prevent eye strain, but not \non par\nwith actual print. The system for acquiring books is really easy \nand\neffective.\n\nThe main problem, though, is the pricing. Simply speaking, they \neither need\nto lower the cost of the reader or of the books. I hope book \npublishers\nfigure out a viable model for buying, storing and sharing texts\nelectronically more quickly than the record companies have for \nmusic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for that. All the other readers I've seen are crap. I think \nI'm the perfect target given that I carry a book everywhere. A \nKindle wouldn't make me any less geeky but at least I'd feel like \nan up-to-the-minute geek. \n\nHopefully AMZN will have sorted out the usability and the pricing \nmodel by the time you can get them down here." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2007-12-21T05:54:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Electric Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 20, 2007, at 11:36 PM, James Crossley wrote:\nOn 12/20/07 9:15 PM, \"thalassocrat at nym.hush.com\" ", "from": { "name": "Recursive Loop", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-12-21T14:42:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Electric Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<20071221051520.6F57250038@mailserver9.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Greetings:\n\n\"Does anybody here have a Kindle?\"\n\nHeavens, no. Ugly, lousy design, stupid design and way overpriced for a \"unitasker\".\n\nI've been reading eBooks on various PalmOS devices (and before that, Apple's Newton) for years and\nyears. Amazon got it amazingly wrong.\n\nFPK3" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9a33123d0712220727y4bab3c59xb9a5c46b2659dfc0@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2007-12-22T15:27:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "<002a01c84390$a6d52fc0$16c85a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy wrote:\nTony is right about Sev1 walking in time, if that's what you're asking\n(CITADEL, last chapter). But it still seems almost axiomatic to me that Sev1\ndid not do whatever was necessary in Yesod to win a new sun. We are told\nthat only two other autarchs, Ymar and the Old Autarch, even made the\nattempt before our narrator of URTH, Sev2, went there and succeeded." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...Yet Sev1 had the chutzpah to try, just like Sev2. If they're both\nmen-in-a-million in that respect, why not in another?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Sev1, sans Claw, had succeeded, why would agents of Yesod have gone back\nin time to change anything? Why mess with success? They could only screw it\nup." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure I know what you mean by the agents of Yesod going back in\ntime to change things - isn't that rather what the agents of Abaia do?\nBut in any case, simply to bring the New Sun isn't a perfect outcome\nthat can't be improved upon. There could be a thousand possible New\nSun futures, some better than others. If, for example, Sev1 brought\nthe New Sun but failed to create a future humanity with a high\nprobability of one day creating the Hierogrammates, that would be an\nexcellent reason for them to go back and have another roll of the\ndice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not to mention the paradoxes. Had Sev1 succeeded, then the white fountain, a\nwhite hole whose light first reached Urth in Apu's era, would have covered a\nminimum of 99.9% of its journey to the Red Sun by the time our narrator was\nborn. There would be no need for Sev2 to do what had already been done." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, but Sev1 doesn't exist in the universe this narrative is set in -\nyoung Severian became Sev2 instead. So his New Sun doesn't exist in\nthis universe either. There presumably *is* a white fountain 99.9% of\nits way to the Red Sun by the time our narrator is born - but it's\nSev2's white fountain, the one he will later go to fetch.\n\nBut all this is by-the-by. The bottom line is this: Sev2 went to\nYesod, passed the test, and as a result acquired the power to travel\ntime. The Old Autarch went to Yesod, failed the test, and as a result\nwas sent back to Urth a eunuch. Sev1 went to Yesod, and acquired the\npower to travel time. What is a reasonable conclusion to make as to\nwhether or not he passed the test?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002901c84521$674e9660$3bca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-12-23T05:05:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "<9a33123d0712220727y4bab3c59xb9a5c46b2659dfc0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tony wrote:\nAh, but Sev1 doesn't exist in the universe this narrative is set in -\nyoung Severian became Sev2 instead. So his New Sun doesn't exist in\nthis universe either. There presumably *is* a white fountain 99.9% of\nits way to the Red Sun by the time our narrator is born - but it's\nSev2's white fountain, the one he will later go to fetch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is still a paradox there, no matter whose white fountain it is. It had\nto be 90% of the way home by Typhon's era, before there was even a need for\nit! But that's an old argument that can't be resolved." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But all this is by-the-by. The bottom line is this: Sev2 went to\nYesod, passed the test, and as a result acquired the power to travel\ntime. The Old Autarch went to Yesod, failed the test, and as a result\nwas sent back to Urth a eunuch. Sev1 went to Yesod, and acquired the\npower to travel time. What is a reasonable conclusion to make as to\nwhether or not he passed the test?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, it's a reasonable conclusion; it's the time-walking part that bothers\nme. If Sev1 doesn't exist in Sev2's universe, as you put it, what is the\nrelevance of his stipulated ability to walk in time? Yesod's agents\npresumably put Sev1 in Typhon's era, just as they did with Sev2. From there,\nSev2 walked the Corridors back to the future to the last day of Urth and the\narrival of the New Sun. Where (or to when) did Sev1 walk from Typhon's era,\nand for what purpose? Do any actions he took while time walking manifest\nthemselves in Sev2's timeline where he (Sev1) does not exist?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joel Sieh", "address": "joel.sieh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-23T13:51:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "<002a01c84390$a6d52fc0$16c85a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Roy and Tony covered everything pretty well. I went searching\nthrough the books a little while ago to try to find support some of\nthe things we've been talking about, and have some specific quotes and\na little more speculation.\n\nMost of this stuff is covered in the last chapter of Citadel, as Roy\npointed out. Here are the relevant quotes that I could find:\n\n\"Two things are clear to me. The first is that I am not the first\nSeverian. Those who walk the corridors of Time saw him gain the\nPhoenix Throne, and thus it was that the Autarch, having been told of\nme, smiled in the House Azure, and the undine thrust me up when it\nseemed I must drown. (Yet surely the first Severian did not;\nsomething had already begun to reshape my life.) Let me guess now,\nthough it is only a guess, at the story of the first Severian.\n\nHe too was reared by the torturers, I think. He too was sent forth to\nThrax. He too fled Thrax, and though he did not carry the Claw of the\nConciliator, he must have been drawn to the fighting in the north--no\ndoubt he hoped to escape the archon by hiding himself among the army.\nHow he encountered the Autarch there I cannot say; but encounter him\nhe did, and so, even as I, he (who in the final sense was and is\nmyself) became Autarch in turn and sailed beyond the candles of night.\n Then those who walk the corridors walked back to the time when he was\nyoung, and my own story--as I have given it here in so many\npages--began.\n\nThe second thing is this. He was not returned to his own time but\nbecame himself a walker of the corridors. I know now the identity of\nthe man called the Head of Day, and why Hildegrin, who was too near,\nperished when we met, and why the witches fled. I know too in whose\nmausoleum I tarried as a child, that little building of stone with its\nrose, its fountain and its flying ship all graven. I have disturbed\nmy own tomb, and now I go to lie in it.\"\n\nOne thing that I find interesting about these paragraphs is the talk\nabout Hildegrin's death. Sev's talking about the meeting with Apu\nPanchau here, which he later writes about becoming (or creating via\nresurrected clone) in Urth (the original tetralogy being written\nbefore his trip on the Tzadkiel). So, in Urth, we get to see him\nacting out some of the parts of Sev 1.\n\nI could not find any direct quotes to support the fact that Sev 1\nfailed the test. After reading some more and thinking some more, I\ncome up with two options. The first is that Sev's right in his\nanalysis and Sev 1 did indeed fail. I think there is some implied\nsupport for this in the text, although you should feel free to\ndiscount it if you want; it's \"subtle,\" and therefore possibly false.\n\nXXXI, when Severian is talking to the Master Malrubius and Triskele aquastors:\n\n'\n\"But if I fail?\"\n\n\"If you fail, your manhood will be taken from you, so that you cannot\nbequeath the Phoenix Throne to your descendants. Your predecessor\nalso accepted the challenge.\"\n\n\"And failed. That is clear from what you said.\"\n\n\"Yes. Still, he was braver than many who are called heroes, the first\nto go in many reigns. Ymar, of whom you may have heard, was the last\nbefore him.\"\n\n\"Yet Ymar too must have been judged unfit. Are we going now. I can\nsee only stars beyond the rail.\"\n\nMaster Malrubius shook his head. \"You are not looking as carefully as\nyou think. We are already near our destination.\"\n'\n\nWhen Malrubius says, \"You are not looking as carefully as you think,\"\nI think this is a clue to say that Severian is not recognizing that\nhis previous self (ambiguous \"predecessor\" Sev 1) accepted the\nchallenge (and failed, although Severian says this, not Malrubius).\n\nOn the next page, Malrubius says, \"The old Autarch told you the\ntruth--we will not go to the stars again until we go as a divinity,\nbut that time may not be far off now. In you all the divergent\ntendencies of our race may have achieved synthesis.\" Severian has\ninside him all of the other autarchs' memories, and Thecla as well.\nThis quote may also reference his experiences. However, I think it\ncould also point out that he is different from Sev 1 (maybe because of\nThecla, or his different experiences). It doesn't have to, but it\ncould.\n\nAnother paragraph that ties into this in an interesting way (perhaps\nhinting at how Sev 2's life was altered):\n\n\"Triskele laid his scarred head against my knee, the ambassador of all\ncrippled things, of the Autarch who had carried a tray ijn the House\nAbsolute and lain paralyzed in the palanquin waiting to pass to me the\nhumming voices in his skull, of Thecla writhing under the\nRevolutionary, and of the woman even I, who had boasted I could forget\nnothing, had nearly forgotten, bleeding and dying beneath our tower.\nPerhaps after all it was my discovery of Trisklee, which I have said\nchanged nothing, that in the end changed everything. [...]\"\n\nThis paragraph could be a clue to one of the changes that was made to\ncreate Sev 2. Triskele could have inspired the compassion in Sev 2 to\ngive Thecla the knife, and everything snowballs from there. Of\ncourse, I need to completely reread the books to be sure this fits,\nalthough from memory, Triskele's appearance does seem kind of random.\nThe later reappearance of little Sev and Triskele in Short Sun might\nbe Wolfe pointing a big finger at him, too.\n\nThe end of XXXIV also has some of Sev's speculation that ties into\nthis discussion.\n\nIn the end, the way I've decided it happened is Sev 1 changed his past\nto create Sev 2, and Sev 2 later filled in for Sev 1 (during Urth) to\nmake sure his own timeline is consistent. This is a pretty standard\ntime travel mechanic, and has probably been talked about already in\nthe archives." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 21, 2007 12:16 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJeff Wilson quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tony Ellis wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Where does this idea come from that 'the first Severian' failed the\ntest in Yesod? I've always understood that he passed.\n\nSeverian doesn't tell us either way, but surely the fact that the\nfirst Severian ended up with the power to walk the corridors of time\nis a pretty big hint?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Did he? Can you point out the relevant text?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tony is right about Sev1 walking in time, if that's what you're asking\n(CITADEL, last chapter). But it still seems almost axiomatic to me that Sev1\ndid not do whatever was necessary in Yesod to win a new sun. We are told\nthat only two other autarchs, Ymar and the Old Autarch, even made the\nattempt before our narrator of URTH, Sev2, went there and succeeded.\n\nIf Sev1, sans Claw, had succeeded, why would agents of Yesod have gone back\nin time to change anything? Why mess with success? They could only screw it\nup.\n\nNot to mention the paradoxes. Had Sev1 succeeded, then the white fountain, a\nwhite hole whose light first reached Urth in Apu's era, would have covered a\nminimum of 99.9% of its journey to the Red Sun by the time our narrator was\nborn. There would be no need for Sev2 to do what had already been done.\n\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9a33123d0712231145n6127e24cmee1542c337e48cc3@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2007-12-23T19:45:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy wrote:\nSure, it's a reasonable conclusion; it's the time-walking part that bothers\nme. If Sev1 doesn't exist in Sev2's universe, as you put it, what is the\nrelevance of his stipulated ability to walk in time?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the stuff about Sev1 has to be read in the context in which it\nwas written, that is, as part of the final words in a tetralogy that\nwas intended to make sense by itself, without any fifth volume.\n\nThe relevance of Sev1's time-travel ability, in this context, is that\nit tells us we can expect Sev2 to gain the power to walk in time too,\nas he is following in Sev1's footsteps. And *that* has some major\nimplications.\n\n\"I know now the identity of the man called the Head of Day.\" TCotA, XXXVIII\n\nParadoxes notwithstanding, the fact that Severian will one day become\na magical man called The Head of Day is a pretty huge hint that he is\ngoing to be successful in bringing the New Sun - something that we\ndon't actually know at that point (although we've had some other\npretty big hints).\n\nMore than that, as I realised on about my third read-through of the\ntetralogy, if the power of time travel makes it possible for Severian\nto be Apu-Punchau, it also makes it possible for him to be another\nlong-ago magic man: the Conciliator. Revelation!\n\nAll this is confirmed in UotNS, obviously, but UotNS wasn't written then." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-23T20:12:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "<9a33123d0712231145n6127e24cmee1542c337e48cc3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am still working out how this fits with the theory currently being discussed, but with regard to Sev1 and Sev2 I always took that as Severian being a bit myopic in his thinking; my conjecture was that it's not solely or simply Severian that is being \"revised\", he is simply a focal point in the revision of the entire timeline (including our own history). And we in turn are manipulating Yesod's timeline/history - but because our own is being manipulated by them, we do it slightly differently each time (and they in turn manipulate us slightly differently). It's paradoxical, but then again we're dealing with timewalking and you're going to get a paradox no matter what. But on this view one thing you don't have to worry about is Sev1 and Sev2 actually meeting each other - though you will get Sev1 meeting Sev1 and Sev2 meeting Sev2. Another consequence is that it becomes unproblematic to think that Sev1 actually succeeded. Severian himself thinks this is problematic, because he situates two Severians in the same timeline - and if Sev1 succeeded why would there need to be a Sev2?\n\nAnother odd possibility is that, all things considered, the differences between how Sev1 got to where he was going and how Sev2 got there may in fact be trivial, nearly meaningless - just the byproduct of the timelines themselves being slightly different, and with possible intervention to make everything work out OK with Severian's life given those changes. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about to set.\" -- Lin Yutang" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 19:45:47 +0000\nFrom: tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian\n\nRoy wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sure, it's a reasonable conclusion; it's the time-walking part that bothers\nme. If Sev1 doesn't exist in Sev2's universe, as you put it, what is the\nrelevance of his stipulated ability to walk in time?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the stuff about Sev1 has to be read in the context in which it\nwas written, that is, as part of the final words in a tetralogy that\nwas intended to make sense by itself, without any fifth volume.\n\nThe relevance of Sev1's time-travel ability, in this context, is that\nit tells us we can expect Sev2 to gain the power to walk in time too,\nas he is following in Sev1's footsteps. And *that* has some major\nimplications.\n\n\"I know now the identity of the man called the Head of Day.\" TCotA, XXXVIII\n\nParadoxes notwithstanding, the fact that Severian will one day become\na magical man called The Head of Day is a pretty huge hint that he is\ngoing to be successful in bringing the New Sun - something that we\ndon't actually know at that point (although we've had some other\npretty big hints).\n\nMore than that, as I realised on about my third read-through of the\ntetralogy, if the power of time travel makes it possible for Severian\nto be Apu-Punchau, it also makes it possible for him to be another\nlong-ago magic man: the Conciliator. Revelation!\n\nAll this is confirmed in UotNS, obviously, but UotNS wasn't written then.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1198492230.5696.43.camel@todd-desktop>", "from": { "name": "Todd", "address": "heliumhead at charter.net" }, "date": "2007-12-24T10:30:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "<9a33123d0712231145n6127e24cmee1542c337e48cc3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that in one sense, there is only one Severian and this is his\nway of describing the paradoxes involved in passing into his own past.\n\nOn the other hand, it is an apt metaphor for the two divergent\nhistories of Urth which are set up, where everyone experiences the\nalterations made by Sev1, thus everyone lives alternative existences.\n\nIf I may be excused for quoting a popular British Science Fiction\nprogram, \"it is a big ball of wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey,\" in the sense\nthat neither the future nor the past are set in stone.\n\nWhen considering the world of Sev1, in his journey to the Phoenix\nThrone and eventual judgment, it would have been a world where the\nConciliator never existed and he himself would have possessed no special\nabilities. If we remove both of these from his history (and other\ninstances of Sev1 in the past), that should give us an idea as to his\nadventures. It should be obvious that he would never have rescued\nTriskele, found Dorcas, or acquired the Claw. On the other hand,\nshort of giving up Terminus Est and fleeing, I do not see how he would\nhave survived his duel with Agillus... To make a long story short,\nwhen he was eventually judged favorably, and acquires access to the\npower of the white fountain for the entire term of his life including\nretroactively. He then goes on to wander the corridors of time to be\nvarious important people such as Apu-Punchau, the Conciliator and, no\ndoubt others who have not been named.\n\nSev2, whose story we are familiar with, thus lives in the world\ncreated to some degree by Sev1 including the power to occasionally\naccess the power of the white fountain. Though, clearly the future is\nstill not written and he can fail when his time comes to be judged.\n(This is evident by his meeting men from two disparate futures.)\n\nAs to why does Sev2 need to be judged when Sev1 was successful, perhaps\nit is to determine whether the initial judgment was correct, or as a\nfail-safe against Sev1 abusing such power as he was given.\n\nTodd" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 2007-12-23 at 19:45 +0000, Tony Ellis wrote:\nRoy wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sure, it's a reasonable conclusion; it's the time-walking part that bothers\nme. If Sev1 doesn't exist in Sev2's universe, as you put it, what is the\nrelevance of his stipulated ability to walk in time?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the stuff about Sev1 has to be read in the context in which it\nwas written, that is, as part of the final words in a tetralogy that\nwas intended to make sense by itself, without any fifth volume.\n\nThe relevance of Sev1's time-travel ability, in this context, is that\nit tells us we can expect Sev2 to gain the power to walk in time too,\nas he is following in Sev1's footsteps. And *that* has some major\nimplications.\n\n\"I know now the identity of the man called the Head of Day.\" TCotA, XXXVIII\n\nParadoxes notwithstanding, the fact that Severian will one day become\na magical man called The Head of Day is a pretty huge hint that he is\ngoing to be successful in bringing the New Sun - something that we\ndon't actually know at that point (although we've had some other\npretty big hints).\n\nMore than that, as I realised on about my third read-through of the\ntetralogy, if the power of time travel makes it possible for Severian\nto be Apu-Punchau, it also makes it possible for him to be another\nlong-ago magic man: the Conciliator. Revelation!\n\nAll this is confirmed in UotNS, obviously, but UotNS wasn't written then.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<476FCAB4.5000103@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-12-24T15:05:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "<1198492230.5696.43.camel@todd-desktop>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Todd wrote:\nI think that in one sense, there is only one Severian and this is his\nway of describing the paradoxes involved in passing into his own past.\n\nOn the other hand, it is an apt metaphor for the two divergent\nhistories of Urth which are set up, where everyone experiences the\nalterations made by Sev1, thus everyone lives alternative existences.\n\nIf I may be excused for quoting a popular British Science Fiction\nprogram, \"it is a big ball of wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey,\" in the sense\nthat neither the future nor the past are set in stone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...except that they are. As I recall, the good Doctor uses the phrase to \ndescribe when a moment in time is uncertain and resolves in favor of \npreventing a larger paradox by using information from \"nowhere\". Both \nrecent uses involved him using information that ultimately came from an \nobservation of himself using the information. The only time I can think \nof something like this happening in New Sun is Severian lifting one of \nhis Conciliator speeches from Talos' play, which was ultimately informed \nby wossname's ancient account of the Conciliator's sermons." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080108021039.GD5156@localhost>", "from": { "name": "gwern0 at gmail.com", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-01-08T02:10:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "<476A1248.8070208@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 2007.12.20 00:57:12 -0600, Jeff Wilson scribbled 1.9K characters:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Peter S. wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The green man is wandering through the corridors of time looking for a\nsituation where Sev is captive so that he can free him. He seems to save\nhim from Hethor's monster in the Antechamber, although he doesn't free\nhim then -- Thecla does that. Could the green man have freed Sev1 here?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think that the Green Man was involved in the Antechamber episode,\nbut in any event it is far from certain that Sev1 ever even met the Green\nMan. Though the general outline of the life of Sev1 was the same as Sev2's\nbetween the time of the near drowning and becoming autarch, the details\nvaried considerably. Sev1 didn't have the Claw, so everything associated\nwith it, including the burning of the tent-cathedral and the Pelerines'\nflight from the city, didn't happen the same way for him. No Dorcas, no\nexcuse for Jonas to intrude himself on the theater troupe, no blue-light\nspecial for the man-apes, etc. And the Green Man came from a sunny future --\nUshas -- that Sev1 did not bring.\n\nAny other candidates?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given that Sev1 succeeded in becoming Autarch but failed in Yesod, a\npro-New Sun agent may have arranged for a change in history to drown\nhim, clearing the way for another candidate to become Autarch and win\nYesod. Then Juturna has a justifiable reason to save Sev2, hoping to\nrestore the timeline and serve Abaia by preventing the New Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Would that've been necessary? The New Sun was en route for an awful long time. Plenty long enough for many many Autarchs to have been tested. What made one particular failed non-time-travelling Autarch (Sev1) so crucial, so make-or-break that important players would've expended effort on him? If he failed the test, I don't see how Sev1 would've been very important at all. Sev2 was important because of the Claw, his future/past paths and so on. Sev1? Not so much.\n\nAnd what chance could the pro-New Sun agent have relied on that whoever was next would have been any better?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This would mean that the Green Man may have been lurking about, hoping\nto kill or otherwise derail Sev2, rather than save him. His greeness is\npond scum after all, making him likewise adapted to lurking camoflaged\nunder yucky Gyoll water. This also explains his exceptional change of\nmood at being given a whetstone by Sev2; touching his hand, he is able\nto feel that presence extending through time into Ushas, affirming the\narrival of the New Sun.\n\n--" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\n5926 Belknap VIA rail DSNET3 FSB erco imagery William BOP" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080108022249.GE5156@localhost>", "from": { "name": "gwern0 at gmail.com", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-01-08T02:22:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "<1198492230.5696.43.camel@todd-desktop>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 2007.12.24 04:30:29 -0600, Todd scribbled 3.5K characters:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that in one sense, there is only one Severian and this is his\nway of describing the paradoxes involved in passing into his own past.\n\nOn the other hand, it is an apt metaphor for the two divergent\nhistories of Urth which are set up, where everyone experiences the\nalterations made by Sev1, thus everyone lives alternative existences.\n\nIf I may be excused for quoting a popular British Science Fiction\nprogram, \"it is a big ball of wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey,\" in the sense\nthat neither the future nor the past are set in stone.\n\nWhen considering the world of Sev1, in his journey to the Phoenix\nThrone and eventual judgment, it would have been a world where the\nConciliator never existed and he himself would have possessed no special\nabilities. If we remove both of these from his history (and other\ninstances of Sev1 in the past), that should give us an idea as to his\nadventures. It should be obvious that he would never have rescued\nTriskele, found Dorcas, or acquired the Claw. On the other hand,\nshort of giving up Terminus Est and fleeing, I do not see how he would\nhave survived his duel with Agillus... To make a long story short,\nwhen he was eventually judged favorably, and acquires access to the\npower of the white fountain for the entire term of his life including\nretroactively. He then goes on to wander the corridors of time to be\nvarious important people such as Apu-Punchau, the Conciliator and, no\ndoubt others who have not been named." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps that was exactly it? Suppose he gave Agilus Terminus Est. He could hardly go to Thrax bereft of one of his tools, or perhaps without it, he was waylaid or otherwise delayed. The Guild would see this as betrayal of the deal, and would do its best to set the civil authorities against him. He would know this, and seek to elude them - which could lead him into the army as someone suggested and thence to the meeting with the Autarch, the brain-eating, etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sev2, whose story we are familiar with, thus lives in the world\ncreated to some degree by Sev1 including the power to occasionally\naccess the power of the white fountain. Though, clearly the future is\nstill not written and he can fail when his time comes to be judged.\n(This is evident by his meeting men from two disparate futures.)\n\nAs to why does Sev2 need to be judged when Sev1 was successful, perhaps\nit is to determine whether the initial judgment was correct, or as a\nfail-safe against Sev1 abusing such power as he was given.\n\nTodd" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\n5926 Belknap VIA rail DSNET3 FSB erco imagery William BOP" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4782E530.8090503@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-01-08T02:51:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "<20080108021039.GD5156@localhost>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "gwern0 at gmail.com wrote:\nOn 2007.12.20 00:57:12 -0600, Jeff Wilson scribbled 1.9K characters:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Any other candidates?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Given that Sev1 succeeded in becoming Autarch but failed in Yesod, a\npro-New Sun agent may have arranged for a change in history to drown\nhim, clearing the way for another candidate to become Autarch and win\nYesod. Then Juturna has a justifiable reason to save Sev2, hoping to\nrestore the timeline and serve Abaia by preventing the New Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Would that've been necessary? The New Sun was en route for an awful\nlong time. Plenty long enough for many many Autarchs to have been\ntested. What made one particular failed non-time-travelling Autarch\n(Sev1) so crucial, so make-or-break that important players would've\nexpended effort on him? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It may not be Sev1 so much as the lack of time remaining. With the White \nFountain scheduled to arrive in 40-50 years, there may only be time for \none or two more Autarchs, depending on how overt the various time \ntraveling factions dare to be. Once Tzadkiel gets a \"winner\", she drops \nhim off just in time to bring the New Sun by uniting the Old Sun and the \nWhite Fountain. If there is no winner, the Fountain just keeps going, \nand the New Sun never comes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If he failed the test, I don't see how Sev1\nwould've been very important at all. Sev2 was important because of the" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Claw, his future/past paths and so on. Sev1? Not so much.\n\nI'm not sure Sev2's Claw ultimately makes a difference, since it is \nultimately just an old thorn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And what chance could the pro-New Sun agent have relied on that whoever was next would have been any better?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We don't know what selection process there is for choosing Autarchs, \nonly that there appears to be one. The\nthree who appear are all drawn from government service workers, some \nexceptional people to be sure but\nnot necessarily unique." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1B4BA3F4-C753-4332-85A1-8673D19C363A@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-01-08T02:58:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "<4782E530.8090503@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 7, 2008, at 8:51 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nWe don't know what selection process there is for choosing Autarchs,\nonly that there appears to be one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You don't call MUST...EAT...BRAINS!!! enough of a selection process?\n\nI would have guessed it's along the lines of:\n\n\"Augh! Dying! Hey! You! Yeah, you over there in the tunic! Grab a \nchisel and a spoon, buddy! You're about to be the Autarch!\"\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-01-08T11:54:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "<4782E530.8090503@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure Sev2's Claw ultimately makes a difference, since it is > ultimately just an old thorn.> " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nJeff is right here (at least to me). The Claw means nothing, it's powerless, just a symbol. The true power was with Severian already, not the claw.\n \nPedro" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew at calmeilles.co.uk", "address": "matthew at calmeilles.co.uk" }, "date": "2008-01-08T13:20:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm not sure Sev2's Claw ultimately makes a difference, since it is \nultimately just an old thorn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff is right here (at least to me). The Claw means nothing, it's powerless,\njust a symbol. The true power was with Severian already, not the claw." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Just\" a symbol surely misses the point: the power of symbols.\n\nFor most of TBotNS Severian _believes_ the claw has power and, if nothing else, that belief precludes any thought that the power might be within him.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0C3EB401-7D7C-40A9-A6CA-9274A3345343@comcast.net>", "from": { "name": "Steven", "address": "mcquaryq at comcast.net" }, "date": "2008-01-08T17:38:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "<1B4BA3F4-C753-4332-85A1-8673D19C363A@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tROFLMAO!!!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 7, 2008, at 9:58 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\"Augh! Dying! Hey! You! Yeah, you over there in the tunic! Grab a\nchisel and a spoon, buddy! You're about to be the Autarch!\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Steven\nhttp://bowenfineart.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-01-08T22:20:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That which you say is certainly true, especially if we remember that famous paragraph about the power of symbols and I understand where you’re hinting at. But if we accept that Triskele was brought from the dead than the question becomes mute because Severian by that time had not yet come into possession of the Claw. \n \nHe also, if I remember correctly, has no idea that he can bring the dead back to life with the Claw, but still he brings Dorcas. Only later does he connect those two events. Maybe it acted at an uncoscious level in him, but still it doesn’t explain triskele (again, if we accept that it was dead).\n \nPedro\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<478597E2.6060509@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-01-10T03:58:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Tomb of the Unknown Severian", "in_reply_to": "<1B4BA3F4-C753-4332-85A1-8673D19C363A@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn Jan 7, 2008, at 8:51 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We don't know what selection process there is for choosing Autarchs,\nonly that there appears to be one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You don't call MUST...EAT...BRAINS!!! enough of a selection process?\n\nI would have guessed it's along the lines of:\n\n\"Augh! Dying! Hey! You! Yeah, you over there in the tunic! Grab a \nchisel and a spoon, buddy! You're about to be the Autarch!\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Funny enough, but didn't we establish that the previous Autarch knew \nSeverian was being lined up as his successor a minimum of several months \nbefore needing to offer the final brunch to him? It would be disastrous \nto wait until the moment of truth to discover the \"successor\" had no \nstomach for enkephalophagy." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }