{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4951", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4951, "subject": "PF - Lesage & Ignacio", "messages": 3, "voices": 2, "first": "2007-12-14T03:57:54+00:00", "last": "2007-12-15T00:09:54+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20071214035754.A0CAADA82B@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-12-14T03:57:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF - Lesage & Ignacio", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Start with Lesage. \n\nBurt gives him command of the little sloop Windward after \ndepositing Chris on Hispaniola. He's still in command of it when \nChris puts into Port Royal after taking the Castillo Blanco. (Both \npieces of info come to Chris from two former Windward shipmates, \nwho left the Windward a week before.)\n\nShortly after this, Lesage is captain of the \"three-master\" \nBretagne. (This piece of info comes from buccaneers on Hispaniola, \nwhen Chris drops by there to look for Valentin.)\n\nThe narrative doesn't make much of it, but as a \"three-master\" the \nBretagne is surely the largest of the pirate ships. For example, \nthe Weald is the largest of the flotilla Burt leads around the \nHorn, and she is a two-masted brig. Anybody who knows something \nabout nautical history can correct me here, but I think the \nBretagne must actually be a galleon.\n\nHow does Lesage in a tiny sloop with a handful of men take a \ngalleon in the short time available to him? \n\nWe have a galleon candidate: the Santa Lucia, which Chris fights on \nhis way from Port Royal to Hispaniola. He leaves her crippled; \nstill too big & dangerous for the Windward by itself, surely, but \nin conjunction with some other larger ship or flotilla which \nsomehow knows of her plight & position ....\n\nFast forward to Rio Hato, the site of Lesage's treachery. Recall \nthat Lesage turns up there in the Bretagne with four other ships in \ncompany. \n\nQuestion: how plausible is the picture of Lesage leading a flotilla \naround the Horn, given his apparent inability to keep a crew \ntogether and his unpleasant reputation? \n\nHe tells Burt and Chris that he missed them at Portobello, but \nknowing Burt's ultimate goal, he sailed as fast as could from \nthere, finding them at Rio Hato. Chris says he should have spotted \na \"big hole\" in this story. \n\nI'm not exactly sure what the hole is - we know that Lesage had \nbeen told about Portobello and the Pacific plan, so no hole up to \nthat point. But I assume it must have to do with the timing. That \nis, under reasonable assumptions, if Lesage had sailed swiftly from \nPortobello, he should have arrived on the Pacific side of Panama \nlong before Burt's flotilla. Between Portobello and Rio Hato, Burt \net al had recruited amongst the Cameroons, taken Maracaibo, \nrefitted at Port Royal, spent a long time finding a wind through \nthe passage, spent a few weeks recuperating, waited 10 days off \nCallao for the treasure fleet to sail, and then chased it north to \nPanama.\n\nNext question: How does Lesage appear at Rio hato at just the right \ntime to work his treachery?\n\nObviously, I'm pointing the finger at Ignacio with all of these \nquestions. I think we have the answer here to what he was actually \ndoing since \"losing sight\" of Chris in Veracruz.\n\nFirst up - motivation. Burt's stash is far less than the value of \nthe Spanish mule train. To the extent that Ignacio is driven by \ndesire for $$$, he will want to get his hands on the bigger pile. \nIMO, this is in fact a *primary* motivation for him. He might want \nto go sailing around the world with Novia and his kid, but he wants \nto do it with lots & lots & lots of money - as he imagiens to \nhimself on the night of the treachery. When Fr Chris writes of \nhaving \"planned every detail\", what he means is the plan \nculminating in this treachery.\n\n(Burt speaks of being able to go back to Surrey and buy a tidy \nestate when he's added some more to his stash. One tenth of a \ncommander's share of the mule train is enough for that purpose. On \nthe figures Burt gives when he describes the train to Chris, say \naround $500K for his stash, and $50M-$200M for a mule train, in \nmodern dollars, and acknowledging that such comparisons are always \nvery rough.)\n\nSecond - execution. As I wrote before, I think that Ignacio in \n2010's-era Cuba has already recovered Burt's stash. He uses \nproceeds from this to finance the venture, once he's back in the \n17th century. Buys a ship, recruits a crew. He knows where & when \nto find Lesage: at Port Royal, a week before Chris sails for \nTortuga, if not before. Meets him, recruits him to the plan (Lesage \nis also a money-driven kind of guy), gets him to chuck people who \nalready know the young Chris off the Windward. \n\nGo find the crippled Sana Lucia, take it, install Lesage as captain \n(renamed the Bretagne presumably in honor of Lesage's birth-place) \nand cats-power flotilla leader. Quite possibly stop off at \nHispaniola to get rid of Valentin (though I'm not clear exactly why \n- maybe it's a device for getting a better hold on Lesage, who \nwould be prime suspect in any murder investigation ... dunno).\n\nPossibly the two ships are then positioned as a *Spanish* pirate \nforce, perhaps with a base at Veracruz (Fr Chris explains how \nSpanish and Franco-British pirates rarely have much to do with each \nother). Ignacio is the real commander but Lesage fronts - obviously \nhe doesn't want it widely known in Veracruz that he's in charge; \nthis could get him \"in the soup\" with Novia later on, after Chris \nhas gone back to the future.\n\nIgnacio engineers the Portobello incident by writing the letter \nwhich Gosling intercepts, giving time to assemble his own larger \nflotilla on the one hand, and reducing Burt's manpower on the \nother. \n\nFollows Burt around the Horn, arrives at Rio Hato at just the right \ntime, do the dirty deed, grab the gold, take the biggest share, \nmeet Chris & Novia in Veracruz with a big grin on his face ...\n\nAlthough he probably regrets Burt at al's death a little, it's \n*already happened* and God isn't going to punish him for something \nwhich happened in his past where he was a victim too (or some such \ncasuistry). He would have given strict instructions that Novia was \nnot to be hurt or raped, but there had to be enough rough-house to \navoid suspicion." } ] }, { "message_id": "<479521.1074.qm@web44916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "paul witcover", "address": "gdeonn at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-12-14T14:46:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF - Lesage & Ignacio", "in_reply_to": "<20071214035754.A0CAADA82B@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote: Start with Lesage. (etc.)\n\n###\n \n Some fascinating speculation, and I think you may be on to something re: Ignacio's role in Lesage's betrayal. But Chris is almost killed in that betrayal; would Iganacio really have launched an action that could very easily have wound up in the death of his earlier self, with highly unclear implications for the causality of his own present (or future) existence?\n \n Another thought that's been nibbling at my brain is about the moment that Chris first encounters the Native American slave he purchases and then frees (Hoodas, who seems to be the real-life model for Friday in Crusoe). At that moment, Chris says: \"And I fet as though He were standing right behind me, laying His pierced hand on my shoulder. This is it, Chris. This is the moment. What are you going to do?\"\n \n I wonder, only partially seriously, if Chris was brought back just for this moment, as the answer to Friday's prayers, and everything else is incidental to that. I also wonder if \"Hoodas\" could be a Judas-like character, and that he, rather than Ignacio, is responsible for Lesage's betrayal. Do we know what becomes of Hoodas?\n \n \n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071215000955.6D0542283E@mailserver9.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-12-15T00:09:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF - Lesage & Ignacio", "in_reply_to": "<479521.1074.qm@web44916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 01:46:17 +1100 paul witcover \nwrote:\n \n Some fascinating speculation, and I think you may be on to \nsomething re: Ignacio's role in Lesage's betrayal. But Chris is \nalmost killed in that betrayal; would Iganacio really have \nlaunched an action that could very easily have wound up in the \ndeath of his earlier self, with highly unclear implications for \nthe causality of his own present (or future) existence?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yep, that's certainly a soggy spot in the theory. I guess Fr Chris \ncould be lying about the events of the night - eg maybe what \nactually happened was that he was tied up while asleep & left \nalone, or something. But I'd hate to think that he explicitly lies \nin the narrative - if there, why not everywhere? \n\nIt might be worth having another look at yr Lesage-as-dad theory - \nsomething around that could also let Lesage know about times & \nplaces. Eg: Dad also follows Chris1 back in time, to become Lesage \n... But Lesage would have to be old enough for that to fit - around \nabout 40, I think - and I don't know if we have anything suggesting \nthat.\n\nAlso, I'm convinced that Ignacio is involved somehow - but then \nagain I'm biased against the guy :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Another thought that's been nibbling at my brain is about the \nmoment that Chris first encounters the Native American slave he \npurchases and then frees (Hoodas, who seems to be the real-life \nmodel for Friday in Crusoe). At that moment, Chris says: \"And I \nfet as though He were standing right behind me, laying His pierced " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "hand on my shoulder. This is it, Chris. This is the moment. What \nare you going to do?\"\n \n I wonder, only partially seriously, if Chris was brought back \njust for this moment, as the answer to Friday's prayers, and \neverything else is incidental to that. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought about that too, but I couldn't do anything much with it. \nIt seems that Hoodas brutally murders the innkeeper & his son at \nthe sack of Maracaibo, which doesn't seem like the kind of thing \nyou'd expect if Jesus had intervened here :) " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I also wonder if \"Hoodas\" \ncould be a Judas-like character, and that he, rather than Ignacio, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is responsible for Lesage's betrayal. Do we know what becomes of \nHoodas?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I assumed that he was one of the many who died in the sea battle \nwith the treasure fleet, but that doesn't have to be so. It is a \nlittle odd that he has an (old?) friend on Chris' ship (Red Jack? \ncan't remember) - what's with that?" } ] } ] }