{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4956", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4956, "subject": "Typhon & the Whorl (was Prior Race On Blue And Green)", "messages": 10, "voices": 6, "first": "2007-12-17T19:12:39+00:00", "last": "2007-12-21T12:52:07+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<6.2.1.2.1.20071217093621.03ace6b0@pop.vippn.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan", "address": "autarch at vippn.com" }, "date": "2007-12-17T19:12:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & the Whorl (was Prior Race On Blue And Green)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 03:26 AM 12/17/2007, gwern wrote:\n On Dec 16, 2007, at 9:50 PM, Michael Dale wrote:\n\n Who is the Undine that exist on Blue? It is not Scylla if she is \nalso\n on Urth I think. (so long that SilkHorn cannot time travel)\n\n I heard someone say that the undines put a blackhole in the sun. I\n don't think so since they want to survive on the Urth also.\n\n I don't know that I like this idea, but it's a new one to me:\n What if the Whorl never actually GOES anywhere?\n I've wondered before what the acceleration means in terms of whether its\n bodies of water stay put, and whether that gives a maximum and minimum\n time for its trip.\n But what happens if the Whorl just kinda wanders around the Solar System\n for a few centuries, or millennia, or aeons, and Silk's trip to meet\n Severian is \"mere\" time travel, not spatial travel? What if Blue and\n Green *are* Earth and Venus in the future after the arrival of the New\n Sun?\n I now need to think and read and see whether that's at all internally\n consistent.\n Another sort-of-snarky point: what if TBot*S isn't _meant_ to be \nhard SF?\n Maybe we're just supposed to read it as _The Dying Earth_ written by\n someone who can really, really write (look, I like Jack Vance too, but\n he's no Gene Wolfe), and who has read his Borges.\n Adam" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That *might* work. It's been used in hard sci-fi before; I think \nparticularly of Baxter's Xeelee Sequence and _Ring_.\n\nYou would expect the Whorl to accelerate to near-C for a few decades. The \ngravity both on Blue and Green as well as the Whorl seem to be as close to \nnormal as makes no difference, so our acceleration/deceleration could be \nat most 1.0Gs of accel. It would take a while to reach .9c, but if we \ngrant 150/1500 years for the initial acceleration, that's more than enough \nto get a very very high velocity, and spend a couple decades hanging \naround at ridiculous time dilations. I mean, I don't know the math, but I \nsuspect fractions of millions of years are possible here. Baxter has the \nGreat Northern spend 1000 time-dilated years, ending up 5 million years \nafter launch; 300 years ought to get us at least 1 million years into the \nfuture.\n\nThat scenario gives us some stuff to look for: acceleration and then \ndeceleration would probably be symmetrical, so we could expect to see some \nsignal or occurrence some decades before 'arrival' when the Whorl stopped \naccelerating or coasting and began the deceleration from relativistic speeds.\n\nWe could also expect signs of even more advanced age in the universe, but \ngiven that Sol would've been rejuvenated at this point by Severian, I'm \nhard-pressed to say what those signs would be.\n\nAnd further, why would Typhon send a colony off into the far future to a \nworld he already solidly ruled? In _Ring_ it was because the vessel was \ndragging around one end of a wormhole, while the other end remained in the \npast; a wormhole allowing timetravel between megayears has obvious \nutility, but what good does planting a colony in the far future do? \nPreventing the extinction of humanity is an obvious goal, but that seems \nawfully altruistic for Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that Typhon would never do anything out of altruism. I'm not sure \nwhat you mean by \"a world he already solidly ruled.\" Typhon was abandoned \nand besieged and was awaiting the arrival of the Conciliator to free him of \nPiaton's stubborn hold on his involuntary functions (which he did and he \ndid, lol). Remember during his brief discussion with Severian, Typhon is \nabsolutely arrogant. This and personal survival are his twin drives for \ninjecting a copy of himself into the Whorl project and hijacking it. Being \nSTL, no one saw it's utility in escaping the global cooling \"disaster\" that \nhad befallen the Earth. I don't think it was built from the ground up (or \nshiprock in) as a personal vessel for Typhon's digital self and its \namusement. The time frame is too long and his position too tenuous for him \nto oversee it's completion. Typhon simply copied himself into the mainframe \nand created it's religion or inserted himself in it as it's Godhead and his \ntreacherous family as pantheon of lesser gods.\n\n Whatever the original design, I think Typhon wanted the Whorl to return \nto Earth after things calmed down after a few centuries to \"recolonize\" \nusing technical experts released from suspended animation to start fixing \nthings, millions of peons that worshipped him as a god to provide the labor \nand armies of chems to reestablish order. Then they could either revive the \noriginal Typhon or if he was lost Pas could download into a suitable body \nand reestablish his empire and glory.\n\nEvidently something went wrong with his plan when he was deposed by his \nchildren and the inhumani hijacked the ship and redirected it to Green/Blue.\n\n\n\n Dan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071217220034.GA26900@localhost>", "from": { "name": "gwern0 at gmail.com", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-17T22:00:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & the Whorl (was Prior Race On Blue And Green)", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.1.2.1.20071217093621.03ace6b0@pop.vippn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 2007.12.17 13:12:39 -0600, Dan scribbled 4.9K characters:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree that Typhon would never do anything out of altruism. I'm not sure\nwhat you mean by \"a world he already solidly ruled.\" Typhon was abandoned\nand besieged and was awaiting the arrival of the Conciliator to free him of\nPiaton's stubborn hold on his involuntary functions (which he did and he\ndid, lol). Remember during his brief discussion with Severian, Typhon is\nabsolutely arrogant. This and personal survival are his twin drives for\ninjecting a copy of himself into the Whorl project and hijacking it. Being\nSTL, no one saw it's utility in escaping the global cooling \"disaster\" that\nhad befallen the Earth. I don't think it was built from the ground up (or\nshiprock in) as a personal vessel for Typhon's digital self and its\namusement. The time frame is too long and his position too tenuous for him\nto oversee it's completion. Typhon simply copied himself into the mainframe\nand created it's religion or inserted himself in it as it's Godhead and his\ntreacherous family as pantheon of lesser gods.\n\n Whatever the original design, I think Typhon wanted the Whorl to return\nto Earth after things calmed down after a few centuries to \"recolonize\"\nusing technical experts released from suspended animation to start fixing\nthings, millions of peons that worshipped him as a god to provide the labor\nand armies of chems to reestablish order. Then they could either revive the\noriginal Typhon or if he was lost Pas could download into a suitable body\nand reestablish his empire and glory.\n\nEvidently something went wrong with his plan when he was deposed by his\nchildren and the inhumani hijacked the ship and redirected it to Green/Blue.\n\n Dan" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps I missed something (I've not read Long or Short sun as thoroughly as I should have), but why are you assuming the Whorl was launched during the latter days of Typhon's empire? An advanced, complex, long-term, and hence extremely expensive interstellar generation-spaceship is not the sort of project you launch when everything is decaying around you. It's the sort of hubristic project launched just before or during one's prime." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nMace tekka .375 RX- nowhere Templar imagery Keyhole AMEMB gold" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.1.2.1.20071218085802.03b17c30@pop.vippn.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan", "address": "autarch at vippn.com" }, "date": "2007-12-18T17:51:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & the Whorl (was Prior Race On Blue And Green)", "in_reply_to": "<20071217220034.GA26900@localhost>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 05:20 PM 12/17/2007, gwern wrote:\nOn 2007.12.17 13:12:39 -0600, Dan scribbled 4.9K \ncharacters:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree that Typhon would never do anything out of altruism. I'm not sure\nwhat you mean by \"a world he already solidly ruled.\" Typhon was abandoned\nand besieged and was awaiting the arrival of the Conciliator to free him of\nPiaton's stubborn hold on his involuntary functions (which he did and he\ndid, lol). Remember during his brief discussion with Severian, Typhon is\nabsolutely arrogant. This and personal survival are his twin drives for\ninjecting a copy of himself into the Whorl project and hijacking it. Being\nSTL, no one saw it's utility in escaping the global cooling \"disaster\" that\nhad befallen the Earth. I don't think it was built from the ground up (or\nshiprock in) as a personal vessel for Typhon's digital self and its\namusement. The time frame is too long and his position too tenuous for him\nto oversee it's completion. Typhon simply copied himself into the mainframe\nand created it's religion or inserted himself in it as it's Godhead and his\ntreacherous family as pantheon of lesser gods.\n\n Whatever the original design, I think Typhon wanted the Whorl to return\nto Earth after things calmed down after a few centuries to \"recolonize\"\nusing technical experts released from suspended animation to start fixing\nthings, millions of peons that worshipped him as a god to provide the labor\nand armies of chems to reestablish order. Then they could either revive the\noriginal Typhon or if he was lost Pas could download into a suitable body\nand reestablish his empire and glory.\n\nEvidently something went wrong with his plan when he was deposed by his\nchildren and the inhumani hijacked the ship and redirected it to \nGreen/Blue.\n\n Dan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps I missed something (I've not read Long or Short sun as thoroughly \nas I should have), but why are you assuming the Whorl was launched during \nthe latter days of Typhon's empire? An advanced, complex, long-term, and \nhence extremely expensive interstellar generation-spaceship is not the \nsort of project you launch when everything is decaying around you. It's \nthe sort of hubristic project launched just before or during one's prime.\n\n--\ngwern" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Three things: the fact that his mountain monument depicts Typhon with one \nhead (\"home\" and his seat of power built during his prime) while two headed \nPas depicts Typhon as he appears after the life extension transplant. I'd \nsay most rulers are only concerned with their legacy toward the end of \ntheir reign. Wanting to extend his life shows that's exactly where Typhon \nwas at. If the Whorl was built or started at the height of his power, I'm \nsure he would have scanned himself and downloaded into Mainframe \nimmediately in case he was assassinated which would subvert the whole point \nof the project. Thus he would have been mono-headed.\n\nThe solar/global cooling disaster ushered in Typhon's decline by severing \nhim from his interstellar empire when his appointees absconded with his FTL \nships (but since his doctors came from other worlds, we know he was grafted \nbefore this). Due to this the STL colony ship was his only way out but \nwithout the Conciliator there to heal him there was really no point in him \ngoing anywhere. So he opted instead just to send a digital copy of himself. \nThe way Typhon recounts the events it seems his decline was rapid (within a \nfew years). This may have been a large enough window to start and complete \nsuch a project, but I think it was already complete or nearing completion. \nTyphon may have had little or no interest in it at all until his decline. \nThat's why I think he hijacked the Whorl when it was nearing completion or \nperhaps after it was already enroute.\n\nThe Pas cult always seemed forcibly kludged over the two distinct cultures \nwe see in BotLS. It was the instigator of a great deal of death, \ndestruction, chaos and waste amongst the cargo and caused a great deal of \ndamage to the ship itself due to the pantheon's digital familial \ninfighting. Hardly things you'd want on a generational colony ship. This \nindicates to me that this pantheon wasn't part of the Whorls original \ndesign and smacks of Typhon's influence after the fact.\n\nDan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071218200352.59B7D22846@mailserver9.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-12-18T20:03:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & the Whorl (was Prior Race On Blue And Green)", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.1.2.1.20071218085802.03b17c30@pop.vippn.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 04:51:47 +1100 Dan wrote:\n\nThree things: the fact that his mountain monument depicts Typhon \nwith one \nhead (\"home\" and his seat of power built during his prime) while \ntwo headed \nPas depicts Typhon as he appears after the life extension \ntransplant. I'd \nsay most rulers are only concerned with their legacy toward the \nend of \ntheir reign. Wanting to extend his life shows that's exactly where " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon \nwas at. If the Whorl was built or started at the height of his \npower, I'm \nsure he would have scanned himself and downloaded into Mainframe \nimmediately in case he was assassinated which would subvert the \nwhole point \nof the project. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One thing which points the other way: chem soldiers were stockpiled \n\"for maybe 20 years\" before being loaded onto the Whorl, according \nto Hammerstone. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370712181235x212968a6k1bc035381ee86b91@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-18T20:35:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & the Whorl (was Prior Race On Blue And Green)", "in_reply_to": "<20071218200352.59B7D22846@mailserver9.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 18, 2007 12:03 PM, wrote:\nOne thing which points the other way: chem soldiers were stockpiled\n\"for maybe 20 years\" before being loaded onto the Whorl, according\nto Hammerstone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doesn't mean that they'd been stockpiled originally for that purpose\n-- only that Hammerstone thinks so." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nI am miserable, he is miserable,\nWe are miserable.\nCan't we have a party? Would he rather have a party?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071220051140.GA20725@localhost>", "from": { "name": "gwern0 at gmail.com", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-20T05:11:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & the Whorl (was Prior Race On Blue And Green)", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.1.2.1.20071218085802.03b17c30@pop.vippn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 2007.12.18 11:51:47 -0600, Dan scribbled 4.3K characters:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 05:20 PM 12/17/2007, gwern wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps I missed something (I've not read Long or Short sun as thoroughly\nas I should have), but why are you assuming the Whorl was launched during\nthe latter days of Typhon's empire? An advanced, complex, long-term, and\nhence extremely expensive interstellar generation-spaceship is not the\nsort of project you launch when everything is decaying around you. It's\nthe sort of hubristic project launched just before or during one's prime.\n\n--\ngwern" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Three things: the fact that his mountain monument depicts Typhon with one\nhead (\"home\" and his seat of power built during his prime) while two headed\nPas depicts Typhon as he appears after the life extension transplant. I'd\nsay most rulers are only concerned with their legacy toward the end of\ntheir reign. Wanting to extend his life shows that's exactly where Typhon\nwas at. If the Whorl was built or started at the height of his power, I'm\nsure he would have scanned himself and downloaded into Mainframe\nimmediately in case he was assassinated which would subvert the whole point\nof the project. Thus he would have been mono-headed.\n\nThe solar/global cooling disaster ushered in Typhon's decline by severing\nhim from his interstellar empire when his appointees absconded with his FTL\nships (but since his doctors came from other worlds, we know he was grafted\nbefore this). Due to this the STL colony ship was his only way out but\nwithout the Conciliator there to heal him there was really no point in him\ngoing anywhere. So he opted instead just to send a digital copy of himself.\nThe way Typhon recounts the events it seems his decline was rapid (within a\nfew years). This may have been a large enough window to start and complete\nsuch a project, but I think it was already complete or nearing completion.\nTyphon may have had little or no interest in it at all until his decline.\nThat's why I think he hijacked the Whorl when it was nearing completion or\nperhaps after it was already enroute." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, here's another sticking point for me. We both agree Typhon's decline was swift, and so it's unlikely the Whorl was constructed during or after the period where he was stranded on Urth.\n\nIt somewhat follows from that that the whorl was not originally intended to be an escape vessel for some form of Typhon. But the Whorl is a STL ship! Why, in a period where there was FTL travel, and extremely capacious FTL travel (the ship Severian travels on in Urth of the New Sun is just absolutely colossal) at that, would they have planned and begun to construct an STL vessel in the first place? Even if the available FTL vessels couldn't carry so much cargo, they might still best STL vessels given that they could make multiple trips." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Pas cult always seemed forcibly kludged over the two distinct cultures\nwe see in BotLS. It was the instigator of a great deal of death,\ndestruction, chaos and waste amongst the cargo and caused a great deal of\ndamage to the ship itself due to the pantheon's digital familial\ninfighting. Hardly things you'd want on a generational colony ship. This\nindicates to me that this pantheon wasn't part of the Whorls original\ndesign and smacks of Typhon's influence after the fact.\n\nDan" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nX400 NAVCM F-22 SERT rain RIT Gulf BLACKER clones cryptanalysis" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.1.2.1.20071220230257.03b09b20@pop.vippn.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan", "address": "autarch at vippn.com" }, "date": "2007-12-21T06:54:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<20071220051140.GA20725@localhost>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 04:48 PM 12/19/2007, thalassocrat wrote:\nOne thing which points the other way: chem soldiers were stockpiled\n\"for maybe 20 years\" before being loaded onto the Whorl, according\nto Hammerstone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that is good evidence for how long it took to construct the Whorl, \nwhich reinforces my point that Typhon hijacked it. It wasn't built \nspecifically as a personal monument to his grandeur or chariot to the \nstars. If anything, it seems like a living cultural museum to preserve \nEarth's social diversity. Given the rapidity of the decline and the length \nof time for construction it almost seems that there was extraterrestrial \ninfluence to motivate it's construction and then bring about the disaster \nwhich would necessitate it's existence. Like Noah's Ark and the great flood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 06:58 AM 12/20/2007, gwern wrote:\nOK, here's another sticking point for me. We both agree Typhon's decline \nwas swift, and so it's unlikely the Whorl was constructed during or after \nthe period where he was stranded on Urth.\n\nIt somewhat follows from that that the whorl was not originally intended \nto be an escape vessel for some form of Typhon. But the Whorl is a STL \nship! Why, in a period where there was FTL travel, and extremely capacious \nFTL travel (the ship Severian travels on in Urth of the New Sun is just \nabsolutely colossal) at that, would they have planned and begun to \nconstruct an STL vessel in the first place? Even if the available FTL \nvessels couldn't carry so much cargo, they might still best STL vessels \ngiven that they could make multiple trips." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have a vague memory ihat in Citadel, there was a discussion about \ntechnology (which may have tied in with why the Hieros didn't use their \nships to save the doomed population) with the point being that Earth \ncouldn't make everything and some things had to be procured from other \nworlds. I think FTL technology would fall under this category and no doubt \nthe Hieros would be reluctant to part with it. Especially to a tyrant like \nTyphon. The ones he had under his control may have been loaners or \ninherited from previous, more benevolent rulers. Besides, I don't see the \nWhorl as a lifeboat, more of a living museum. Far more people could be \naccommodated by better utilizing it's volume than wasting it to isolate \nculturally different city states." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "thalassocrat wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Abaia etc are in the oceans of Urth during Typhon's reign, and\ngiven that his family knows about them, presumably he does too\n(whereas in NS their presence seems to be a new thing for the\n\"resurrected\" Typhon)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always thought Abaia et al was part of the plot against Typhon by his \nfamily. That plot got transcribed to the Whorl when they were digitally \nscanned. They knew about the creatures because it was in the works but the \nNS Typhon didn't because it never unfolded before he was, uh, dehydrated. I \ndon't recall any indication that Pas knew about them. In Typhon's time they \nwere probably hiding, while in Sev's time they were more actively involved \nin the war and easier to discover. If Typhon knew of them before he \nwouldn't have hesitated a second to destroy them if he saw them as a \nthreat. And I certainly doubt he would have given his digital family free \nrun of mainframe if he suspected they were up to something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As it is, I have to think that Wolfe didn't care very much about\nmaking the two series consistent. But if he didn't, then why the\ntie in at all? So maybe he had something else in mind which I can't\nfigure out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a neat tie in to the previous series and provides one of those \"hey \nwait a second\" moments of revelation/realization. I do wish he would write \na short story or novel exploring it further." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pedro Pereira wrote:\n\nAs for the reason for constructing the Whorl, the major reason is that \nWolfe wanted to write a story about a generation starship. The second is \nthat Typhon wanted Immortality, he wanted to be Remembered. He was a \nmegalomaniac. He wanted to be worshiped for Eternity. So he built the \nWhorl. Wolfe states so as the main reason in one of his interviews. Whith \nthe whorl he installs a new colony in which people adore him as a god. As \nhis empire grows, so does his cult. His name will not be a distant thing \nof no importance to people on the fringes of a nominal-only empire. People \nwill actively worship him even if he never pays a visit in 100 years." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd certainly like to read that interview as it directly refutes one of my \nviews on the issue.\n\n\nDan " } ] }, { "message_id": "<007701c843a9$b68eb940$63c85a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-12-21T08:15:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.1.2.1.20071220230257.03b09b20@pop.vippn.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have a vague memory ihat in Citadel, there was a discussion about\ntechnology (which may have tied in with why the Hieros didn't use their\nships to save the doomed population) with the point being that Earth\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe you meant Hierogrammates, not Hieros. The Hieros were the humans\nwho cruelly fashioned the Hierogrammates in another universe that collapsed.\nThe Hierogrammates were the only things that mankind had made that survived\nthat universe. Tzadkiel was a Hierogrammate. Yesod is where they reside. It\nis outside the universe of Briah, which is where Urth is located.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-21T12:44:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.1.2.1.20071220230257.03b09b20@pop.vippn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The answer is right here in this list. Its one of the few interviews in which memebers asked questions that Wolfe later answered: \n \n<<<>>>\n \n \nThere it is, clear as water.\n \nPedro" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-21T12:52:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And by the way, let me say that the Blue/Green system was the intended destination right from the start according to Wolfe, which puts to rest some theories that the Whorl changed its destination or that someone (or something) hijacked it and changed its original destination.\n \nPedro\n\n\nFrom: domus_artemis at hotmail.comTo: urth at lists.urth.netDate: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 14:44:21 +0200Subject: Re: (urth) Typhon & the Whorl" } ] } ] }