{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4959", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4959, "subject": "on the setting of short sun", "messages": 6, "voices": 5, "first": "2007-12-18T04:43:59+00:00", "last": "2007-12-21T06:42:32+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<597545.95515.qm@web58214.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-12-18T04:43:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) on the setting of short sun", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the face of time travel has reared its head\nagain on the Urth discussion list. \n\nMy arguments that Urth-Lune was Blue Green were never\nas important to me as the idea that the trees of Blue\nand Green were creating the vanished people by\nconsuming them, spitting out copies, and causing all\nthe weird stuff in the text to happen (at the end of\nOn Blue's Waters, when Horn says good-bye under the\nbig tree, I fervently believe that it is the end of\nHorn as narrator and the beginning of Silk as narrator\n- facilitated by the tree, whereas Horn goes to ride\nthe beast with three horns, babbie.)\n\nI believe this link is the entire argument, including\npolyploidy, time travel, and transubstantiation, for\nthose who have not been exposed to it before.\n\nhttp://www.urth.org/whorlmap/chras-writers/marc-aramini1.htm\n\nI hope those who have not yet read it have a chance\nto, but I have little desire to argue about it anymore\nwith the list.\n\nMarc\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-18T06:03:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) on the setting of short sun", "in_reply_to": "<597545.95515.qm@web58214.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I actually believe there is a good argument to be made for there being an important shift in the narration at exactly the point you suggest. I think there are a number of plausible reasons for it, though." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about to set.\" -- Lin Yutang" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:43:59 -0800\nFrom: marcaramini at yahoo.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) on the setting of short sun\n\nWell, the face of time travel has reared its head\nagain on the Urth discussion list. \n\nMy arguments that Urth-Lune was Blue Green were never\nas important to me as the idea that the trees of Blue\nand Green were creating the vanished people by\nconsuming them, spitting out copies, and causing all\nthe weird stuff in the text to happen (at the end of\nOn Blue's Waters, when Horn says good-bye under the\nbig tree, I fervently believe that it is the end of\nHorn as narrator and the beginning of Silk as narrator\n- facilitated by the tree, whereas Horn goes to ride\nthe beast with three horns, babbie.)\n\nI believe this link is the entire argument, including\npolyploidy, time travel, and transubstantiation, for\nthose who have not been exposed to it before.\n\nhttp://www.urth.org/whorlmap/chras-writers/marc-aramini1.htm\n\nI hope those who have not yet read it have a chance\nto, but I have little desire to argue about it anymore\nwith the list.\n\nMarc\n\n\n \n\n\n ____________________________________________________________________________________\nNever miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. \nhttp://www.yahoo.com/r/hs\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<872609.36188.qm@web38508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Joe Riley", "address": "whamdoodler at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-12-18T08:22:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 7AN", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the midst of all that is being debated:\n \n I just finished reading Seven American Nights. I have perused the archives, but I have an unanswered question that keeps nagging at me:\n \n What evidence do we have that the journal is authentic? Between the self-writing machine and the finale, where in response to the question about handwriting, the old woman says, \"Perhaps, perhaps,\" we see nothing to confirm this story as factual. \n \n \n \n \n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joel Sieh", "address": "joel.sieh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-18T21:04:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 7AN", "in_reply_to": "<872609.36188.qm@web38508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a good question, and I have to admit that I was too lazy after\nreading it to go back and try to figure it out. Is it safe to assume\nthat at least some of the journal is real? If not, then I think there\nwould be little point to the story, as it would just become an\nelaborate lie to the main character's family. Maybe we could discover\nsome kind of motivation for the lie, but I don't think it would go\nmuch farther than that.\n\nSo let's assume that at least part of the story is true. Now, from\nthat, I'm tempted to say that the story is true starting at the\nbeginning, but has been completed by someone else. Of course, it\nwould be easy enough for some fabricator to get a whole new journal\nand replace any parts he wished, but it would be much easier to just\n\"finish\" the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From there, we should look for places in which it would make sense for\nthis to happen, like when the main character visits the police\nstation. Voice changes or motivation/plot inconsistencies would be\nuseful clues to help determine fabrication.... However, I don't\nremember seeing these off the top of the head. Maybe the whole\ndrug-infused candy egg portion of the story is an allusion to a\nfabrication, but I'm not sure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Speaking of which, any ideas which day was hallucination day?\n\nAnyway, determining if and where there was fabrication should be an\ninteresting exercise in puzzle solving. Sorry that I'm not much help\nwith answers right now. :) I may take this as an opportunity to give\nthe story another look, though.\n\n--Joel" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 18, 2007 3:22 AM, Joe Riley wrote:\nIn the midst of all that is being debated:\n\nI just finished reading Seven American Nights. I have perused the archives,\nbut I have an unanswered question that keeps nagging at me:\n\nWhat evidence do we have that the journal is authentic? Between the\nself-writing machine and the finale, where in response to the question about\nhandwriting, the old woman says, \"Perhaps, perhaps,\" we see nothing to\nconfirm this story as factual.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n ________________________________\nBe a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it\nnow.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8CA0FDB6CA949BF-E2C-1A7F@webmail-db04.sysops.aol.com>", "from": { "name": "stoneox17 at aol.com", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2007-12-18T22:21:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 7AN", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Robert Borski has solved the problem of what happened to the\nmissing night (http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0205/871.txt.shtml).\nI don't agree with all the rest of his interpretation, but I think this \npost,\nas well as his followups to it, should be read by anybody trying to \nfigure\nout what is going on in 7AN.\n\nPeter\n\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Joel Sieh \n\n\nThat's a good question, and I have to admit that I was too lazy after\nreading it to go back and try to figure it out. Is it safe to assume\nthat at least some of the journal is real? If not, then I think there\nwould be little point to the story, as it would just become an\nelaborate lie to the main character's family. Maybe we could discover\nsome kind of motivation for the lie, but I don't think it would go\nmuch farther than that.\n\nSo let's assume that at least part of the story is true. Now, from\nthat, I'm tempted to say that the story is true starting at the\nbeginning, but has been completed by someone else. Of course, it\nwould be easy enough for some fabricator to get a whole new journal\nand replace any parts he wished, but it would be much easier to just\n\"finish\" the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From there, we should look for places in which it would make sense for\nthis to happen, like when the main character visits the police\nstation. Voice changes or motivation/plot inconsistencies would be\nuseful clues to help determine fabrication.... However, I don't\nremember seeing these off the top of the head. Maybe the whole\ndrug-infused candy egg portion of the story is an allusion to a\nfabrication, but I'm not sure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Speaking of which, any ideas which day was hallucination day?\n\nAnyway, determining if and where there was fabrication should be an\ninteresting exercise in puzzle solving. Sorry that I'm not much help\nwith answers right now. :) I may take this as an opportunity to give\nthe story another look, though.\n\n--Joel" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 18, 2007 3:22 AM, Joe Riley wrote:\nIn the midst of all that is being debated:\n\nI just finished reading Seven American Nights. I have perused the \narchives,\nbut I have an unanswered question that keeps nagging at me:\n\nWhat evidence do we have that the journal is authentic? Between the\nself-writing machine and the finale, where in response to the \nquestion about\nhandwriting, the old woman says, \"Perhaps, perhaps,\" we see nothing to\nconfirm this story as factual.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n ________________________________\nBe a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Try it" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "now.\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Contributor for Books Under the Bridge -\nhttp://www.booksunderthebridge.com - Recommended Sci Fi and Fantasy\nLiterature, Articles, and Humor" } ] }, { "message_id": "<682636.42922.qm@web38514.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Joe Riley", "address": "whamdoodler at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-12-21T06:42:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 7AN", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I tend to agree. The unraveling of the body of the story is much the way Borski presented it, but I think the finale is Wolfe's way of saying \"Gotcha!\", instead of something to be teased out.\n \n P.S. Hallucination day had to be the last one, I think.\n\nJoel Sieh wrote:\n That's a good question, and I have to admit that I was too lazy after\nreading it to go back and try to figure it out. Is it safe to assume\nthat at least some of the journal is real? If not, then I think there\nwould be little point to the story, as it would just become an\nelaborate lie to the main character's family. Maybe we could discover\nsome kind of motivation for the lie, but I don't think it would go\nmuch farther than that.\n\nSo let's assume that at least part of the story is true. Now, from\nthat, I'm tempted to say that the story is true starting at the\nbeginning, but has been completed by someone else. Of course, it\nwould be easy enough for some fabricator to get a whole new journal\nand replace any parts he wished, but it would be much easier to just\n\"finish\" the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From there, we should look for places in which it would make sense for\nthis to happen, like when the main character visits the police\nstation. Voice changes or motivation/plot inconsistencies would be\nuseful clues to help determine fabrication.... However, I don't\nremember seeing these off the top of the head. Maybe the whole\ndrug-infused candy egg portion of the story is an allusion to a\nfabrication, but I'm not sure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Speaking of which, any ideas which day was hallucination day?\n\nAnyway, determining if and where there was fabrication should be an\ninteresting exercise in puzzle solving. Sorry that I'm not much help\nwith answers right now. :) I may take this as an opportunity to give\nthe story another look, though.\n\n--Joel" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 18, 2007 3:22 AM, Joe Riley wrote:\nIn the midst of all that is being debated:\n\nI just finished reading Seven American Nights. I have perused the archives,\nbut I have an unanswered question that keeps nagging at me:\n\nWhat evidence do we have that the journal is authentic? Between the\nself-writing machine and the finale, where in response to the question about\nhandwriting, the old woman says, \"Perhaps, perhaps,\" we see nothing to\nconfirm this story as factual.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n________________________________\nBe a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it\nnow.\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Contributor for Books Under the Bridge -\nhttp://www.booksunderthebridge.com - Recommended Sci Fi and Fantasy\nLiterature, Articles, and Humor" } ] } ] }