{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4961", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4961, "subject": "Typhon & Whorl", "messages": 29, "voices": 11, "first": "2007-12-20T12:28:07+00:00", "last": "2007-12-28T14:02:26+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20071220122807.D34A8DA827@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-12-20T12:28:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just find it really difficult to match up the NS and LS/SS \nscenarios.\n\nIf you just took LS/SS by itself, you'd have something like this: \n\nTyphon was a guy who quickly rose to take over the *Earth*. No hint \nAFAIK in LS/SS of anything like an existing instellar empire, with \nTyphon trapped on Urth through bad luck & force of circumstances. \nThe Duko says: \"... when there was a war with one ***country*** \nstronger than the other, he was generally for the weak one ...\"\n\nHe had two heads, for some unexplained reason, and a dysfunctional \nfamily.\n\nThe Whorl was very likely the first & only interstellar \ncolonization project. It obviously took a long time and large \nresources to build. There is no hint of FTL capability. A \ngeneration ship was seemingly the only way to do it, and any \nreasonable size estimates I think lead to the conclusion that \noriginally it must have been Ceres, the biggest asteroid in the \nsolar system (pace those who don't think it worthwhile to look at \ndimensions etc).\n\nTyphon was close enough to us in time for Latin & French to be \nknown languages; for people to have names like \"Warren\"; for \nfamiliar ethnic groups to still exist; for our religious writings \nto still be available. \n\nAbaia etc are in the oceans of Urth during Typhon's reign, and \ngiven that his family knows about them, presumably he does too \n(whereas in NS their presence seems to be a new thing for the \n\"resurrected\" Typhon).\n\nIf it wasn't for the tie in to Sev and Nessus I'd think that Wolfe \nwas just recycling some images and narrative themes from NS to \nLS/SS; or that maybe Pas was actually \"Typhon I\" (as he is referred \nto by one of the councillors of Viron), versus Sev's \"Typhon LXXIV\" \nor whatever. \n\nAs it is, I have to think that Wolfe didn't care very much about \nmaking the two series consistent. But if he didn't, then why the \ntie in at all? So maybe he had something else in mind which I can't \nfigure out." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-20T12:58:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<20071220122807.D34A8DA827@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The reason why Typhon had two heads is explained in TBotNS. He needed a new body, but just tranfering the brain would not do any good, because a Leader is recognized by his Face. Thats why he had his own face grafted to the body of a slave. \n \nAs for the FTL. Some people mentioned here that there was FTL technologie available and that Typhon even brought doctors from far away places. Now, I don't remember (please confirm this) that those doctors were brought from outside the solar system. If they were brought from inside the Solar System (say Venus, the birth place of Typhon) then there would be no need for FTL travel. \n \nAlso, even if they were coming from outside our system, they could have been brought by ships that were not part of Typhon's empire, even by the Tzadskiel ship. Don't forget that the hierodules, hierogrammates, etc, help the New Sun AND the New Sun's enemies at the same time, for uncertain reasons, which could mean that they could provide the means for bringing Typhon's doctors to him for whatever reason (even if they destroyed the First Empire). Typhon's reign is not the peak of the Empire. He WANTS to create a new empire. Much of the technology comes from other planets, its not produced on earth anymore like it was during the peak of the First Empire. The reason why the Whorl is STL can be simply because there are no FTL technology easily available to Typhon.\n \nAs for the reason for constructing the Whorl, the major reason is that Wolfe wanted to write a story about a generation starship. The second is that Typhon wanted Immortality, he wanted to be Remembered. He was a megalomaniac. He wanted to be worshiped for Eternity. So he built the Whorl. Wolfe states so as the main reason in one of his interviews. Whith the whorl he installs a new colony in which people adore him as a god. As his empire grows, so does his cult. His name will not be a distant thing of no importance to people on the fringes of a nominal-only empire. People will actively worship him even if he never pays a visit in 100 years. \n \nPedro\n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071220131603.A19E9DA81F@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-12-20T13:16:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:58:00 +1100 Pedro Pereira \n wrote:\nThe reason why Typhon had two heads is explained in TBotNS. He \nneeded a new body, but just tranfering the brain would not do any \ngood, because a Leader is recognized by his Face. Thats why he had " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "his own face grafted to the body of a slave. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure - I was just talking about what I think you'd know or infer if \nyou only had LS/SS, not NS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for the FTL. Some people mentioned here that there was FTL \ntechnologie available and that Typhon even brought doctors from \nfar away places. Now, I don't remember (please confirm this) that \nthose doctors were brought from outside the solar system. If they \nwere brought from inside the Solar System (say Venus, the birth \nplace of Typhon) then there would be no need for FTL travel. \n\nAlso, even if they were coming from outside our system, they could " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "have been brought by ships that were not part of Typhon's empire, \neven by the Tzadskiel ship. Don't forget that the hierodules, \nhierogrammates, etc, help the New Sun AND the New Sun's enemies \nat the same time, for uncertain reasons, which could mean that \nthey could provide the means for bringing Typhon's doctors to him \nfor whatever reason (even if they destroyed the First Empire). \nTyphon's reign is not the peak of the Empire. He WANTS to create a " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "new empire. Much of the technology comes from other planets, its \nnot produced on earth anymore like it was during the peak of the \nFirst Empire. The reason why the Whorl is STL can be simply \nbecause there are no FTL technology easily available to Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, my point is that I think if you just had LS/SS, you wouldn't \nhave any reason whatsoever to suspect that FTL technology existed \nat all for Typhon (which it clearly does in NS), and on the other \nhand you would have every reason to think that Urth was the only \nplanet, as far as humans go (which it clearly isn't, in NS)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for the reason for constructing the Whorl, the major reason is \nthat Wolfe wanted to write a story about a generation starship. \nThe second is that Typhon wanted Immortality, he wanted to be \nRemembered. He was a megalomaniac. He wanted to be worshiped for \nEternity. So he built the Whorl. Wolfe states so as the main \nreason in one of his interviews. Whith the whorl he installs a new " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "colony in which people adore him as a god. As his empire grows, so " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "does his cult. His name will not be a distant thing of no \nimportance to people on the fringes of a nominal-only empire. \nPeople will actively worship him even if he never pays a visit in \n100 years. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, that fits perfectly with the internal evidence in LS/SS. In \nNS, Typhon has a history on worlds outside the solar system \nalready. In fact, he ruled them, probably as some kind of faux-god, \nif his behavior when Sev \"resurrects\" him is any guide.\n\nThe two series are definitely inconsistent on many points and on \nseveral levels, IMO. I don't think you can harmonize them really \nwithout adding in something major (eg, two quite different \niterations of the universe cycle), and quite likely they're not \nsupposed to be harmonized. (But again - then why the tie in?)\n\nYou mention the hiero-dudes. How do you fit them into LS/SS? Does \nAlphetta have a giant bureaucratic moth-person colleague who's \nsupervising the Neighbor world? Is there a Neighbor-Tzadkiel? \nMaybe, but it doesn't feel right to me." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-20T13:27:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<20071220131603.A19E9DA81F@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good that you confirm that, I didn't remember if extra-solar system rule by Typhon was clearly established in TBotNS. Anyway, couldn't he be just lying while he was tempting Severian, and in fact he didn't rule anything outside of the Solar System? Again, I don't remember the details so I don't know if this would be consistent.\n \nBut if extra-solar system rule is confirmed, than the only answer to the Whorl is that Wolfe wanted a generational starship and thats it. And in that case you're right, the two series are somehow interconnected in the sense that its the \"same\" universe, but they are not really the same thingy and should be looked upon as two related series with recurring themes but ultimately independent.\n \nhum...\n \n \n \nPedro\n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-20T20:38:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<20071220122807.D34A8DA827@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon was close enough to us in time for Latin & French to be\nknown languages; for people to have names like \"Warren\"; for\nfamiliar ethnic groups to still exist;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd guess that LS & SS are translated from some future\nas-yet-unexisting language, and that \"Latin\" and \"French\" are\nanalogues chosen by the translator, much the same way that we're told\n\"Terminus Est\" is not the actual name of Severian's sword.\n\n(Now how Wolfe got a hold of Horn's book(s)...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "for our religious writings to still be available." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wouldn't be surprised if Wolfe believes that those writings will\nnever completely disappear from human civilization. If we didn't see\nmore of them in the New Sun books, it's not because they weren't still\naround anywhere.\n\nRostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "<517119.68934.qm@web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-12-21T06:33:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Pedro Pereira wrote:\nBut if extra-solar system rule is confirmed, than\nthe only answer to the Whorl is that Wolfe wanted a\ngenerational starship and thats it. And in that case\nyou're right, the two series are somehow\ninterconnected in the sense that its the \"same\"\nuniverse, but they are not really the same thingy\nand should be looked upon as two related series with\nrecurring themes but ultimately independent.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except for the impossible to avoid fact that Wolfe has\nSilk(horn) travel to Urth and meet Severian in RttW.\nWhatever else it might mean, it certainly means the\nbooks are intended to be read as a cycle.\n\nDon\n\nThe Evangelists: a Lesser Apocrypha http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=178109961" } ] }, { "message_id": "<005601c843a7$2b7ef880$63c85a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-12-21T07:57:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<517119.68934.qm@web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nI just find it really difficult to match up the NS and LS/SS\nscenarios." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You've said as much in the past. I agreed with you then and I agree with you\nstill, fwiw.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Abaia etc are in the oceans of Urth during Typhon's reign, and\ngiven that his family knows about them, presumably he does too\n(whereas in NS their presence seems to be a new thing for the\n\"resurrected\" Typhon)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly right.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As it is, I have to think that Wolfe didn't care very much about\nmaking the two series consistent. But if he didn't, then why the\ntie in at all?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know if Wolfe really thought SS would be \"lame\" without the visit to\nUrth or if he was just bowing to pressure from readers, particularly those\non this list. I think LS/SS was confusing enough without muddying the waters\neven further with the NS link.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-21T12:40:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<517119.68934.qm@web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let me clarify things then. I will again state that the only reason we have a STL generation starship is because Wolfe wanted to write a book about one. I think not even he knows exactely why it is STL, the reason beying simply that he needs it to be so to tell the story he wants to tell.\n \nIn the end I think Wolfe leaves to the reader the reason for the Whorl's existance and STL speeds. He lets the reader beying an active participant in explaining that, because for him its an unimportant aspect of the book. Everyone can come up with some explanation for why the whorl was built or why it's STL and I think all of them are correct as long as they do not contradict explicit facts of the books. \n \nOr maybe he simply used some neat ideas from TBotNS to set some of the background (Pas, etc) but without the intention to actually make it a sequel/prequel/whatever, in the sence they may not really mesh well. \n \nI have to recognize that I do have some reluctance about considering them two different \"universes\" whith common themes though (BotNS vs LS/SS). I would correct my position and instead say that they are the same universe but there are things that are not easily relatable to because Wolfe just writes about what the hell he wants and doesn't worry to much about if it feels right as long as it does not directly contradict anything previously writen. The encounter with Severian in SS seems to be of minor importance (I don't really remember details) and it seems more of a tie-in with previous books resulting from some fancy on the part of Wolfe than any necessary thing for LS/SS. What I feel when I read the so called Solar Cycle is that TBotNS/UotNS is one thing meant to be read together and LS/SS is another thing meant to be read together, but the two cycles are basically independent and can perfectly be read separately.\n \n \nAnd again the reason is simply that Wolfe wants to write about a STL generation starship and its tripulation tribulations in colonizing a new system...\n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<740660.10201.qm@web58210.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-12-21T14:44:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- Pedro Pereira wrote:\n\n What I feel when I read" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the so called Solar Cycle is that TBotNS/UotNS is\none thing meant to be read together and LS/SS is\nanother thing meant to be read together, but the two\ncycles are basically independent and can perfectly\nbe read separately.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My fervent belief is that short sun shows the nascent\nrise of the green man and his ilk on Ushas with the\nrecombination of man with that ancient vegetative\nmatter.\n\nThe trees make the multi-limbed animals by eating\ntheir diploid templates but the lianas are the\nprimordial inhuma, with growth and reproduction\nthrough blood - but they can survive being buried,\netc. The green man seems between these two,\nvegetative certainly but not multi-limbed.\n\nBut most think I'm out of my gourd." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-21T15:09:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<740660.10201.qm@web58210.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I read yor essay. Good stuff. As I said before I'm not convinced that SS is set in a distante future of our system, but neither am I convinced it is not. This may not be important to the general flow of the tale (just like its not important the reason why the whorl is STL) but still is a legitimate question that could clarify a lot of things. A lot of people here feel its a question that is a waste of time, but I don't think so. Unfortunately I doubt it will ever be definitely answered (Wolfe's response in a interview seems too dubious to me, too \"wolfian\" to be credited as a direct answer).\n \nIn fact, another reason for the Whorl beying like it is is simply that Typhon may want to ensure that in Urth's future he will still be worshiped. Thus he sends a gigantic ship (excelent for the job at end) with thousands of colonialists/evangelists, in a STL travel at relativistic speeds so that when the \"journey\" ends it will be on Urth's system in the far future. And basically what we see is the distante future of the green man. \n \nBut then, maybe not. Maybe Typhon in his megalomaniac way just wants to create a megalomanous project of colonization, create a new colony that he can brag about, instead of just re-colonizing/adding the former colonies of the First Empire to his. \n \nBoth of this ideas are plausible. \n \n \nPedro\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-21T15:25:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, people tend to try to find answers to legitimize their point of view in strict scientific views, like \"the moon can't be so close to earth because of \"this\"\", or \"there's not enough asteroids in the asteroid belt to add significantly to mass of the moon to make it consistant with what we see in TBotNS\", etc. Well, people are just assuming that Wolfe is super-human and knows everything about everything. He makes mistakes, and from my geologists point of view, I see many inconsistencies. People forget things like that you cannot add a white hole to a black hole, like in -1+1=0 and that reverts everything back to \"normal.\" I can hardly call his books hard sci-fi (in fact very few books are even many of those considered so), although he does take great care in making everything consistent and credible. What people can be sure about is his stories, characters motivations, etc. As for the science, take it with a grain of salt and an open mind.\n \nPedro \n\n\nFrom: domus_artemis at hotmail.comTo: urth at lists.urth.netDate: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:09:41 +0200Subject: Re: (urth) Typhon & Whorl" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-21T19:31:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 21, 2007 8:25 AM, Pedro Pereira wrote:\nPeople forget things\nlike that you cannot add a white hole to a black hole, like in -1+1=0 and\nthat reverts everything back to \"normal.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't you think that's a pretty tiny nitpick compared to the fact that\nwhite holes are not generally bonded to individual human beings?\n\nSeverian bringing the New Sun is essentially a miracle on the order of\nMoses parting the Red Sea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can hardly call his books hard sci-fi (in fact very few books are\neven many of those considered > so), although he does take great care\nin making everything consistent and credible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the New Sun series is intended to be hard-sci-fi in a universe\nin which miracles sometimes occur. Just like our own :-).\n\nRostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6263.24.119.55.228.1198265652.squirrel@webmail.io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-12-21T19:34:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, people tend to try to find answers to legitimize their point of view\nin strict scientific views, like \"the moon can't be so close to earth\nbecause of \"this\"\", or \"there's not enough asteroids in the asteroid belt\nto add significantly to mass of the moon to make it consistant with what\nwe see in TBotNS\", etc. Well, people are just assuming that Wolfe is\nsuper-human and knows everything about everything." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rather, we know that Wolfe is particularly well-read for a mortal. He may\nvery well know about the asteroid deficit, which would explain why he\ndoesn't offer it (or anything else) as an explanation for Lune's gravity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He makes mistakes, and\nfrom my geologists point of view, I see many inconsistencies. People\nforget things like that you cannot add a white hole to a black hole, like\nin -1+1=0 and that reverts everything back to \"normal.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, that part turns out to be correct." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9824.72.171.0.138.1198266642.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-12-21T19:50:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 21, 2007 8:25 AM, Pedro Pereira wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "People forget things like that you cannot add a white hole to a\nblack hole, like in -1+1=0 and that reverts everything back to \"normal.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't you think that's a pretty tiny nitpick compared to the fact that\nwhite holes are not generally bonded to individual human beings?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, but the association of humans or some humans with stars is ancient and\nvery widespread.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-21T20:48:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1) No, I don't think its a tiny nitpick, because one thing is assuming a supernatural event in which miracles do occur and another is subverting scientific facts or accepted present theories. Miracles are outside science - either you believe in them or not. Science is another thing. And Wolfe does try to make the science plausible.\n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-21T20:58:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<6263.24.119.55.228.1198265652.squirrel@webmail.io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do agree that wolfe is very well read comparing to the majority of writers these days. Still, he is not perfect and far as the geology part of things go, I find many inconsistencies. He may or may not know about the asteroid deficit. Maybe he was not sure and left it vague because of that. Or maybe he just assumed there was enough material. Or maybe he even didn't think about it because its not important and left it to the reader to come up with his own plausible explanation. What I think is, again, that he is not perfect and people cannot assume that he has though about every obscure detail that a specialist in any field of science could come up with.\n \nAs for the white hole/black hole thing, do you care to explain? I think things would be quite more complicated, based on black hole mass, white hole energy output and quite a lot of other highly technical intereaction details. It does not seem plausible to me that its just a mater of adding a white hole to a black hole in the center of the sun and voila, everything is back to normal. I'm just curious here.\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<476C9655.40702@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-12-22T04:45:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pedro Pereira wrote:\nAs for the white hole/black hole thing, do you care to explain? I think \nthings would be quite more complicated, based on black hole mass, white \nhole energy output and quite a lot of other highly technical \nintereaction details. It does not seem plausible to me that its just a \nmater of adding a white hole to a black hole in the center of the sun \nand voila, everything is back to normal. I'm just curious here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The black hole-white hole model has been deprecated for a few decades \nnow, so this is mainly a humorous answer, but current standard model \nwormholes would involve negative mass causing negative spacetime \ncurvature, and there are several scenarios where the ends of a wormhole \ninto the heart of the sun can be brought together and then leave the sun \nto return to equilibrium without destroying the earth; in fact, the \nsun's lifetime is usually extended slightly." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-22T08:38:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<476C9655.40702@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. Thanks for the response.\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2007-12-22T15:02:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pedro Pereira writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do agree that wolfe is very well read comparing to the majority of writers these days. Still, he is not perfect and far as the geology part of things go, I find many inconsistencies. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe it's time to reiterate something I am sure we all already understand \n\n\nWriters rarely know exactly what they are going to create when they start \nout in a story. \n\nLike most really devoted artists, Wolfe writes whatever his internal muse \ndictates and then plasters enough \"machinery\" around it to create a \nplausible suspension of disbelief. \n\nThus, the state of the Sun in the New Sun books can not be justified \nscientifically. It's actually a \"Dying Earth\" type sun like that in Clark \nAshton Smith or The Night Land. It's not explainable by real physics. \n\nThus, the Long Sun books started as in a completely different universe from \nthe New Sun. Typhon popped up and the whole Long Sun connection was \nretconned subsequently. \n\nFundamentally science fiction is **not** based on science, whatever analysts \nof the genre try to pretend. It's a sub-class of wonder tale that uses \nscience, not magic, as bullshit/excuse/enabler: nothing more. \n\nScientific inconsistencies are inevitable and, really, irrelevant. Unless \nthey are just stupid and graceless. Which Wolfe is not. \n\n\nI'm not posting this because I think it will be news to anyone, but because \nwe need to be regularly reminded. \n\n - hartshorn \n\n \n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071223095204.5D500D0038@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-12-23T09:52:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:57:40 +1100 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\n\nI don't know if Wolfe really thought SS would be \"lame\" without \nthe visit to\nUrth or if he was just bowing to pressure from readers, \nparticularly those\non this list. I think LS/SS was confusing enough without muddying \nthe waters\neven further with the NS link." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "LS/SS was surely more confusing than it had to be, peaking at \nsomething not far off maximal confusion in RTTW. \n\nWould Wolfe really be influenced by his audience in that way? If \nso, I doubt he'd simply give the crowd what it thinks it wants. But \nI can see him messing with people's expectations (as he does, I \nthink, in PF). That might bring you back to wondering if the \ninconsistencies are deliberate.\n\nI've said before that I think the visit to Urth is actually a very \nimportant event. Sev's story after it will not be the NS story. The \nOutsider has come inside, fixing a unique reality, ending no doubt \nthe depressing and futile Hiero/human cycles.\n\nI want to go over this again, from a different angle. Start at the \nbeginning: Sev saving Vodalus in the necropolis. Sev presents this \nas the kick-off event for the whole story. Without it, everything \nwould have been different.\n\nBut meeting Vodalus actually relied on a slightly earlier event: \nSev's near drowning. Without that, the apprentices wouldn't have \nbeen late coming back from Gyoll, and the meeting wouldn't have \nhappened. \n\nNo near-drowning means no Vodalus meeting and no NS story. \n\nI think that Juturna actually caused the near-drowning. Her \nmotivations: to cause the delay and hence the meeting with Vodalus, \nAbaia's ally and servant - and presumably also to influence Sev to \nbe well disposed to her.\n\nEvidence? Never before had Sev encountered a tangle of nenuphar \nroots as dense as that which he believes trapped him. He describes \nthe roots as \"black ... as fine and strong as hair\". In fact, the \ntangle *was* hair - Juturna's. She tangled him in her hair, and \nthen freed him & shot him to the surface. It's a large, green mass \nof hair, in the UOTNS scene where he tells of her of the incident. \nIn Gyoll, her hair seemed black, not green, because it was \nunderwater (ref the scene in UOTNS where Sev prepares to torture \nIdas). \n\nBut if the incident only happened because Juturna caused it, then \nno NS story means no near-drowning and no Vodalus meeting. \n\nWhen Juturna says, \"It hasn't yet occurred. It will, because you \nspoke,\" I believe it's not really a matter of Juturna going back in \ntime and causing things to happen. Instead, I have an image of \nJuturna et al as beings conscious of the whole quantum-ish many-\nworlds-ish manifold of potential universes. Sev as New Sun has the \npower to collapse the manifold into his chosen reality, which \nincludes the Gyoll incident. His Word is Reality, if you like - at \nleast over his time span.\n\nIf that part of my story is wrong, and Juturna actually does go \nback in time to cause the Gyoll incident, you still have the same \nconclusion: Sev has to become the New Sun for the near-drowning in \nhis past to have occurred. (It's just that in this picture, it's \nharder to discern a clear set of motivations for Juturna. Mainly: \nwhy would she go into the past to promote an outcome which is \nevidently sub-optimal from her point of view?)\n\nSo my first conclusion is that there was no near-drowning for \n\"Sev1\". What was Sev1's history? Sev has some guesses at the end of \nCitadel, but I think we can also add something to these. \nSpecifically: Triskele. \n\nSev says, \"I felt that [finding T] could have and should have \nchanged everything, but it was only the episode of a few months \n...\" When those few months were over: \"I like to think [T's new \nowner] was someone who took him away with him in the spring, \nperhaps north to ... the campaigns among the mountains.\"\n\nI think Sev here is \"remembering\" a Sev1 who formed a closer \nattachment to Triskele which led him to leaving or being ejected \nfrom the Guild and following the armies. Imagine what Gurloes would \ndo if & when he found out about Triskele, and what effect that \nmight have had on Sev1. \n\nOur Sev is ambivalent towards Triskele. The key event occurs on the \nfirst night after finding him: he has a dream in which \"I walked \nthe fourth level again, and found a huge friend there with dripping \njaws. It spoke to me.\" The next morning, Sev is hoping T had died \nduring the night.\n\nI think this dream comes from Abaia etc, and it's purpose is to \nblock a true bond from forming between boy & dog. (Or perhaps it's \nfrom the Hiero-dudes: both sides want him on the same track, at \nleast up to this point, and that track doesn't include him running \naway with T.)\n\nThe result is that Sev seems to take only cursory care of Triskele, \nwho runs away afer a week. \n\nTurn now to SilkHorn's Urth visit at the end of RTTW. As I wrote a \nwhile ago, the timing is not consistent with NS. In RTTW, Sev has \nTriskele on both the occasions SilkHorn meets him, and those \noccasions are surely more than a week apart. Also, the RTTW Sev \nseems more attached to Triskele - his rather odd insistence that \nSilkHorn see the dog, the nest he's made for him. I think this \nisn't a slip by Wolfe. The RTTW Sev has kept Triskele for longer, \nand cared more for him.\n\nI think, in fact, that the RTTW Sev is Sev1. SilkHorn's visit is \nthe event which causes him to leave the guild with Triskele and \npresumably follow the armies north. No New Sun, no encounter with \nJuturna in Gyoll, no meeting with Vodalus, no Triskele nightmare \n....\n\nAs I've said before, I can't believe that Sev could go on being a \nGuild apprentice after the events of SilkHorn's last visit. Gurloes \nflees from what he takes to be Malrubius' ghost, in Sev's presence; \nSev's allowed strange people into the oubliette; after Gurloes \nflees, Sev ignores him and goes to show SilkHorn his dog ... If he \ndoesn't run away after that, he'll be lucky if Gurloes kicks him \nout with all his limbs intact.\n\nAnd then Wolfe piles it on. The Merryn incident, which makes it \nimpossible for this Sev not to recognize her if a meeting with her \nin Apu Panchu's ruined town does lie in his future. What stories \nwould the crew of the Samru have to tell after the Scylla incident, \nof which we hear nothing in NS? \n\nSev saying that he's not going to write about any of this, because \nnobody would believe it - I think that might be the biggest tell-\ntale. At his worst, I can't imagine Wolfe being that artless, if it \nis to be taken at face-value. And the Sev of the NS describes many \nevents which are no more believable than SilkHorn's visits, \nincluding the earlier encounter with Juturna in Gyoll (which of \ncourse did not happen for the RTTW Sev, on my reading).\n\nSo I see a kind of wrestling to choose the \"real\" reality and Sev's \nfate, between SilkHorn on the one hand and the Hiero-dudes plus \nAbaia et al on the other. SilkHorn has the really-truly God on his \nside, and so of course wins. The dreary, brutal, obscene, pointless \nHiero/human cycles are broken. The NS story with its blasphemous \nnon-god and possible anti-christ, Sev the New Sun, dissolves back \ninto the quantum soup. \n\n(As a footnote, you could say it all comes down to a boy & his dog, \nwhich I vaguely recall as the theme of Gaiman and Pratchett's \"Good \nOmens\" published some years after NS but before LS/SS. I wonder if \nthat's just a coincidence?)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<38CC27BC-6E47-4764-A718-315C8AC85896@comcast.net>", "from": { "name": "Steven", "address": "mcquaryq at comcast.net" }, "date": "2007-12-23T18:33:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<20071223095204.5D500D0038@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tAll I can say is 'Wow'. That is a masterpiece of a post and cleared \nup numerous issues I've had. Thanks so much for taking the time to \nwrite it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 23, 2007, at 4:52 AM, wrote:\n\n\n\nLS/SS was surely more confusing than it had to be, peaking at\nsomething not far off maximal confusion in RTTW." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Steven\nhttp://bowenfineart.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<750669.7553.qm@web58204.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-12-23T18:41:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<20071223095204.5D500D0038@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "great stuff, and I especially was always puzzled by the zen like koan where Ymar gets up and follows the dog (remember, he sits under a tree, and all manner of men and women come by, but he only moves to follow the dog) -but this idea makes it very, very important and masterfully relevant. otherwise, it is inscrutable. Sev1's bond with Triskele ... yet would Sev1 have the power to return Triskele from the dead, as Sev 2 did - ie - \"he was the smallest of those dead\", to paraphrase?\n\nthalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote: \n\nLS/SS was surely more confusing than it had to be, peaking at \nsomething not far off maximal confusion in RTTW. \nTurn now to SilkHorn's Urth visit at the end of RTTW. As I wrote a \nwhile ago, the timing is not consistent with NS. In RTTW, Sev has \nTriskele on both the occasions SilkHorn meets him, and those \noccasions are surely more than a week apart. Also, the RTTW Sev \nseems more attached to Triskele - his rather odd insistence that \nSilkHorn see the dog, the nest he's made for him. I think this \nisn't a slip by Wolfe. The RTTW Sev has kept Triskele for longer, \nand cared more for him.\n\nI think, in fact, that the RTTW Sev is Sev1. SilkHorn's visit is \nthe event which causes him to leave the guild with Triskele and \npresumably follow the armies north. No New Sun, no encounter with \nJuturna in Gyoll, no meeting with Vodalus, no Triskele nightmare \n....\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071224010655.E3E5B50038@mailserver9.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-12-24T01:06:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<750669.7553.qm@web58204.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 05:41:48 +1100 Marc Aramini \n wrote:\ngreat stuff, and I especially was always puzzled by the zen like \nkoan where Ymar gets up and follows the dog (remember, he sits \nunder a tree, and all manner of men and women come by, but he only " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "moves to follow the dog) -but this idea makes it very, very \nimportant and masterfully relevant. otherwise, it is inscrutable. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sev1's bond with Triskele ... yet would Sev1 have the power to \nreturn Triskele from the dead, as Sev 2 did - ie - \"he was the \nsmallest of those dead\", to paraphrase?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought of the Ymar story right after posting the message - one \nof those nice little flashes which can fool you into thinking that \nwhat you've said actually makes sense :)\n\nTriskele *looked* dead but Sev doesn't say that he actually was \ndead. He doesn't seem to have any of the vagueness resurrected \nhumans seem to experience. \n\nOn a different note, I think Sev's little episodes where he thinks \nhe might be insane could point to key Sev1/Sev2 divergences. \nSomething to look out for on my next trawl through NS ..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<157971.36556.qm@web58207.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2007-12-24T01:36:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<20071224010655.E3E5B50038@mailserver9.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\nTriskele *looked* dead but Sev doesn't say that he\nactually was \ndead. He doesn't seem to have any of the vagueness\nresurrected \nhumans seem to experience. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here is the quote:\n\n\"Our guild buries its own dead beside the wall ... but\nthe keepers of the Bear Tower leave theirs to be taken\naway by others. He was the smallest of those dead.\"\n(p 29 shadow and claw)\n\nwhich, the second time I read it, screamed to me that\nSev's powers worked BEFORE the claw was his.\n\nthen ...\n\n\"I went over and put my hand on his head - I don't\nknow why. He seemed as dead as the rest, but he\nopened one eye then and rolled it at me, and there was\na confidence in it that the worst was over now\"\n\nThis is ambiguous because he is classified as the\nsmallest of those dead and only evinces life ONLY\nAFTER Severian touches him. I have always read this\nas definitive proof that it is not the claw but\nSeverian who carries these powers." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071224025154.533BD50039@mailserver9.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-12-24T02:51:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<157971.36556.qm@web58207.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:36:48 +1100 Marc Aramini \n wrote:\n--- thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Triskele *looked* dead but Sev doesn't say that he\nactually was \ndead. He doesn't seem to have any of the vagueness\nresurrected \nhumans seem to experience. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here is the quote:\n\n\"Our guild buries its own dead beside the wall ... but\nthe keepers of the Bear Tower leave theirs to be taken\naway by others. He was the smallest of those dead.\"\n(p 29 shadow and claw)\n\nwhich, the second time I read it, screamed to me that\nSev's powers worked BEFORE the claw was his.\n\nthen ...\n\n\"I went over and put my hand on his head - I don't\nknow why. He seemed as dead as the rest, but he\nopened one eye then and rolled it at me, and there was\na confidence in it that the worst was over now\"\n\nThis is ambiguous because he is classified as the\nsmallest of those dead and only evinces life ONLY\nAFTER Severian touches him. I have always read this\nas definitive proof that it is not the claw but\nSeverian who carries these powers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe he was in fact dead, and Sev1 had just enough New Sun-mojo to \nresurrect his little doggie life. \n\nAs I said before, I think of Sev and his timelines as being some \nkind of quantum-ish superposition of different possibilities. After \nYesod, he is 100% New Sun and can act like a god in some respects. \nBefore then, the timeline hasn't been fully determined; it will \nprobably turn out to be one with him becoming New Sun, but some \nother reality might prevail. (Master Ash fades, he doesn't just pop \nout of existence - and so on.) So he's not as powerful - he's only \nX% New Sun (and, I suppose, there's only X% wormhole speeding \ntowards Urth's sun etc etc). \n\nOn my story, at the time of the Triskele incident even on a Sev1-\nish timeline there would still I guess be a small probability of a \nNew Sun final resolution - so perhaps Sev1 is Y% New Sun for some Y \nwhich is small but big enough to do the trick for Triskele.\n\nBut anyway, I prefer to think that Triskele wasn't actually dead." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2007-12-24T04:22:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<20071224010655.E3E5B50038@mailserver9.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 05:41:48 +1100 Marc Aramini\n wrote:\ngreat stuff, and I especially was always puzzled by the zen like\nkoan where Ymar gets up and follows the dog (remember, he sits\nunder a tree, and all manner of men and women come by, but he only\nmoves to follow the dog) -but this idea makes it very, very\nimportant and masterfully relevant. otherwise, it is inscrutable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is, IIRC, a classic Buddhist parable (or is it Hindu? I have read it,\nbut can't find it at the moment), so I always thought it just another\nexample of reattribution a la medieval Alexander stories etc.\n\nI am always reminded, when reading this list, of _Gigamesh_ (in Lem's _A\nPerfect Vacuum_). Maybe the dog is masterfully relevant, maybe the dog \nis actually a wolf(e), etc.\n\nAnyway, seasonal greetings and all that.\n\nDavid Duffy." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "| David Duffy (MBBS PhD) ,-_|\\\n| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / *\n| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research \\_,-._/\n| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia GPG 4D0B994A v" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001201c845f9$03bab4c0$22c95a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-12-24T06:48:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think, in fact, that the RTTW Sev is Sev1. SilkHorn's visit is\nthe event which causes him to leave the guild with Triskele and\npresumably follow the armies north. No New Sun, no encounter with\nJuturna in Gyoll, no meeting with Vodalus, no Triskele nightmare\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And in a follow-up:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On my story, at the time of the Triskele incident even on a Sev1-\nish timeline there would still I guess be a small probability of a\nNew Sun final resolution - so perhaps Sev1 is Y% New Sun for some Y\nwhich is small but big enough to do the trick for Triskele." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm confused. In your theory did Sev1 bring a New Sun or not? If the answer\nis no, and if Sev2's timeline went poof with Silkhorn's astral visit, so\nthat he didn't bring a New Sun either, as your theory contends, then Urth\nwas doomed to the ice future. If the answer is yes, then what is the\nultimate difference whether he brought the New Sun or if Sev2 brought it, as\nit happens in the Urth Cycle? No matter who fetches the white fountain, the\nresult is Ushas and the Hierogrammates get what they wanted and the cycle of\nrepeating universes goes on.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071224122858.68085D0038@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-12-24T12:28:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<001201c845f9$03bab4c0$22c95a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 17:48:33 +1100 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\n\nI'm confused. In your theory did Sev1 bring a New Sun or not? If \nthe answer\nis no, and if Sev2's timeline went poof with Silkhorn's astral \nvisit, so\nthat he didn't bring a New Sun either, as your theory contends, \nthen Urth\nwas doomed to the ice future. If the answer is yes, then what is \nthe\nultimate difference whether he brought the New Sun or if Sev2 \nbrought it, as\nit happens in the Urth Cycle? No matter who fetches the white \nfountain, the\nresult is Ushas and the Hierogrammates get what they wanted and \nthe cycle of\nrepeating universes goes on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, didn't make that clear. I think that Sev1 did not bring the \nNew Sun. If there was still a possibility that he might have for \nsome time, it indeed went poof with SilkHorn's visit, if not \nbefore.\n\nUrth presumably dies the ice death, but so what? No mega-deaths, \nand at least one human world probably flourishing - Blue - if not \nGreen & others as well." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071228140226.E2E59118039@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-12-28T14:02:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon & Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<20071224122858.68085D0038@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A little while ago Roy agreed with me on something:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Abaia etc are in the oceans of Urth during Typhon's reign \n[according to SS/LS], and\ngiven that his family knows about them, presumably he does too\n(whereas in NS their presence seems to be a new thing for the\n\"resurrected\" Typhon)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Exactly right." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But actually, this problem crops up even in UOTNS. From his cell, \nSev tells Herena et al: \"Great Erebus, who has established his \nkingdom [in the southern ice] ... will unite his strength with \nAbaia's, whose kingdom is in the warm waters\".\n\nIf you want to harmonize UOTNS with the rest of NS, then I guess \nyou're forced to conclude that Abaia was there but T didn't know \nit, back in the day. The relevant words from Sword Ch XXVI (after \nT's resurrection): \"There are powers in the seas now who would \nrule\". It doesn't seem like something T would say if he had known \nof those powers before his death, at the time Sev's speech to \nHerena et al. \n\nI guess it's possible that Abaia etc had just recently arrived \nand/or were successfully concealing themselves from him. By the \ntime of Sword, Typhon has been replaced by Autarchs, with much less \npower, and so concealment is unnecessary.\n\nIf you want to harmonize all of NS/UOTNS/LS/SS, I suppose you can \nextend this to construct a story in which Abaia etc suborned (some \nof?) Typhon's children (and wife?) without revealing their \nexistence to him. " } ] } ] }