{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4962", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4962, "subject": "Urth Digest, Vol 40, Issue 33", "messages": 6, "voices": 3, "first": "2007-12-21T15:50:12+00:00", "last": "2007-12-22T15:46:41+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<2e6fee3b0712210750j258e0347w2627dcff3e17fe84@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Josh Young", "address": "greatoaktree at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-12-21T15:50:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 40, Issue 33", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I might have missed the answer to this in the previous threads, (been busy\nand not following the threads) but I never got the feeling that Typhon's era\nhad FTL at all-- I had assumed that FTL travel, from Urth, was part of the\nmachine empire that existed in the distant past, and that Typhon was\ndefinitely post-machine era." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 21, 2007 7:53 AM, wrote:\nSend Urth mailing list submissions to\n urth at lists.urth.net\n\nTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit\n http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net\nor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to\n urth-request at lists.urth.net\n\nYou can reach the person managing the list at\n urth-owner at lists.urth.net\n\nWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific\nthan \"Re: Contents of Urth digest...\"\n\n\nToday's Topics:\n\n 1. Re: Typhon & the Whorl (Dan)\n 2. Re: Typhon & Whorl (Roy C. Lackey)\n 3. Re: Typhon & the Whorl (Roy C. Lackey)\n 4. Re: Typhon & Whorl (Pedro Pereira)\n 5. Re: Typhon & the Whorl (Pedro Pereira)\n 6. Re: Typhon & the Whorl (Pedro Pereira)\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 00:54:38 -0600\nFrom: Dan \nSubject: Re: (urth) Typhon & the Whorl\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <6.2.1.2.1.20071220230257.03b09b20 at pop.vippn.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"; format=flowed\n\nAt 04:48 PM 12/19/2007, thalassocrat wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One thing which points the other way: chem soldiers were stockpiled\n\"for maybe 20 years\" before being loaded onto the Whorl, according\nto Hammerstone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that is good evidence for how long it took to construct the Whorl,\nwhich reinforces my point that Typhon hijacked it. It wasn't built\nspecifically as a personal monument to his grandeur or chariot to the\nstars. If anything, it seems like a living cultural museum to preserve\nEarth's social diversity. Given the rapidity of the decline and the length\nof time for construction it almost seems that there was extraterrestrial\ninfluence to motivate it's construction and then bring about the disaster\nwhich would necessitate it's existence. Like Noah's Ark and the great\nflood.\n\nAt 06:58 AM 12/20/2007, gwern wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "OK, here's another sticking point for me. We both agree Typhon's decline\nwas swift, and so it's unlikely the Whorl was constructed during or after\nthe period where he was stranded on Urth.\n\nIt somewhat follows from that that the whorl was not originally intended\nto be an escape vessel for some form of Typhon. But the Whorl is a STL\nship! Why, in a period where there was FTL travel, and extremely\ncapacious\nFTL travel (the ship Severian travels on in Urth of the New Sun is just\nabsolutely colossal) at that, would they have planned and begun to\nconstruct an STL vessel in the first place? Even if the available FTL\nvessels couldn't carry so much cargo, they might still best STL vessels\ngiven that they could make multiple trips." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have a vague memory ihat in Citadel, there was a discussion about\ntechnology (which may have tied in with why the Hieros didn't use their\nships to save the doomed population) with the point being that Earth\ncouldn't make everything and some things had to be procured from other\nworlds. I think FTL technology would fall under this category and no doubt\nthe Hieros would be reluctant to part with it. Especially to a tyrant like\nTyphon. The ones he had under his control may have been loaners or\ninherited from previous, more benevolent rulers. Besides, I don't see the\nWhorl as a lifeboat, more of a living museum. Far more people could be\naccommodated by better utilizing it's volume than wasting it to isolate\nculturally different city states." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "thalassocrat wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Abaia etc are in the oceans of Urth during Typhon's reign, and\ngiven that his family knows about them, presumably he does too\n(whereas in NS their presence seems to be a new thing for the\n\"resurrected\" Typhon)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I always thought Abaia et al was part of the plot against Typhon by his\nfamily. That plot got transcribed to the Whorl when they were digitally\nscanned. They knew about the creatures because it was in the works but the\nNS Typhon didn't because it never unfolded before he was, uh, dehydrated.\nI\ndon't recall any indication that Pas knew about them. In Typhon's time\nthey\nwere probably hiding, while in Sev's time they were more actively involved\nin the war and easier to discover. If Typhon knew of them before he\nwouldn't have hesitated a second to destroy them if he saw them as a\nthreat. And I certainly doubt he would have given his digital family free\nrun of mainframe if he suspected they were up to something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As it is, I have to think that Wolfe didn't care very much about\nmaking the two series consistent. But if he didn't, then why the\ntie in at all? So maybe he had something else in mind which I can't\nfigure out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's a neat tie in to the previous series and provides one of those \"hey\nwait a second\" moments of revelation/realization. I do wish he would write\na short story or novel exploring it further." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Pedro Pereira wrote:\n\nAs for the reason for constructing the Whorl, the major reason is that\nWolfe wanted to write a story about a generation starship. The second is\nthat Typhon wanted Immortality, he wanted to be Remembered. He was a\nmegalomaniac. He wanted to be worshiped for Eternity. So he built the\nWhorl. Wolfe states so as the main reason in one of his interviews. Whith\nthe whorl he installs a new colony in which people adore him as a god. As\nhis empire grows, so does his cult. His name will not be a distant thing\nof no importance to people on the fringes of a nominal-only empire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "People\nwill actively worship him even if he never pays a visit in 100 years.\n\nI'd certainly like to read that interview as it directly refutes one of my\nviews on the issue.\n\n\nDan\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 01:57:40 -0600\nFrom: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Typhon & Whorl\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <005601c843a7$2b7ef880$63c85a42 at rclackey.stic.net>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nAndrew wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I just find it really difficult to match up the NS and LS/SS\nscenarios." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You've said as much in the past. I agreed with you then and I agree with\nyou\nstill, fwiw.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Abaia etc are in the oceans of Urth during Typhon's reign, and\ngiven that his family knows about them, presumably he does too\n(whereas in NS their presence seems to be a new thing for the\n\"resurrected\" Typhon)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Exactly right.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As it is, I have to think that Wolfe didn't care very much about\nmaking the two series consistent. But if he didn't, then why the\ntie in at all?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know if Wolfe really thought SS would be \"lame\" without the visit\nto\nUrth or if he was just bowing to pressure from readers, particularly those\non this list. I think LS/SS was confusing enough without muddying the\nwaters\neven further with the NS link.\n\n-Roy\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 02:15:52 -0600\nFrom: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Typhon & the Whorl\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <007701c843a9$b68eb940$63c85a42 at rclackey.stic.net>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nDan wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have a vague memory ihat in Citadel, there was a discussion about\ntechnology (which may have tied in with why the Hieros didn't use their\nships to save the doomed population) with the point being that Earth\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe you meant Hierogrammates, not Hieros. The Hieros were the humans\nwho cruelly fashioned the Hierogrammates in another universe that\ncollapsed.\nThe Hierogrammates were the only things that mankind had made that\nsurvived\nthat universe. Tzadkiel was a Hierogrammate. Yesod is where they reside.\nIt\nis outside the universe of Briah, which is where Urth is located.\n\n-Roy\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 14:40:33 +0200\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nSubject: Re: (urth) Typhon & Whorl" } ] }, { "message_id": "<476C9A40.7030003@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-12-22T05:01:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) STL vs FTL", "in_reply_to": "<2e6fee3b0712210750j258e0347w2627dcff3e17fe84@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Josh Young wrote:\nI might have missed the answer to this in the previous threads, (been \nbusy and not following the threads) but I never got the feeling that \nTyphon's era had FTL at all-- I had assumed that FTL travel, from Urth, \nwas part of the machine empire that existed in the distant past, and \nthat Typhon was definitely post-machine era." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possible - Typhon's \"dry\" dialogue indicates he is familiar with some \nform of suspended animation that might allow STL travel between multiple \nstars by a particular person, but there still needs to be time for the \nnews of Typhon's need to travel to many worlds and the various doctors \nfrom each of them to travel back with enough time left to perform the \nprocedure. Typhon's natural lifetime could have been extended by divers \nmeans, but given his face orientation, it seems unlikely he would have \nhibernated while on Urth, waiting for the physicians to arrive." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071222060605.957E3D0038@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-12-22T06:06:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) STL vs FTL", "in_reply_to": "<476C9A40.7030003@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:01:52 +1100 Jeff Wilson \nwrote:\n\nPossible - Typhon's \"dry\" dialogue indicates he is familiar with \nsome \nform of suspended animation that might allow STL travel between \nmultiple \nstars by a particular person, but there still needs to be time for " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the \nnews of Typhon's need to travel to many worlds and the various \ndoctors \nfrom each of them to travel back with enough time left to perform \nthe \nprocedure. Typhon's natural lifetime could have been extended by \ndivers \nmeans, but given his face orientation, it seems unlikely he would \nhave \nhibernated while on Urth, waiting for the physicians to arrive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And also: how could he have been the ruler of many worlds without \nsome kind of FTL travel? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<476CAB2F.70507@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-12-22T06:14:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) STL vs FTL", "in_reply_to": "<20071222060605.957E3D0038@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\n\nAnd also: how could he have been the ruler of many worlds without \nsome kind of FTL travel? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The way it was done by rules from Alexander to Victoria: by proxy \nthrough stationary vassals, the individual territories garrisoned with \nloyal forces superior to any the locals are likely to raise." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20071222064819.53AC2D0038@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-12-22T06:48:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) STL vs FTL", "in_reply_to": "<476CAB2F.70507@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 17:14:07 +1100 Jeff Wilson \nwrote:\nthalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And also: how could he have been the ruler of many worlds \nwithout \nsome kind of FTL travel? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The way it was done by rules from Alexander to Victoria: by proxy \nthrough stationary vassals, the individual territories garrisoned \nwith \nloyal forces superior to any the locals are likely to raise." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How does that work with travel times of perhaps hundreds of years? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<476D3161.6040103@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2007-12-22T15:46:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) STL vs FTL", "in_reply_to": "<20071222064819.53AC2D0038@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\n\nOn Sat, 22 Dec 2007 17:14:07 +1100 Jeff Wilson \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And also: how could he have been the ruler of many worlds \nwithout \nsome kind of FTL travel? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The way it was done by rules from Alexander to Victoria: by proxy \nthrough stationary vassals, the individual territories garrisoned \nwith \nloyal forces superior to any the locals are likely to raise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How does that work with travel times of perhaps hundreds of years? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The more infrequent the contact the more important the technological \nedge the garrison has over the locals, and the stronger the ties between \n the vassal and the absentee ruler must be. Bribes help, too. DUNE and \nthe Foundation series have some examples." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }