{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4965",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
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  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 4965,
    "subject": "Two (hopefully) quick questions",
    "messages": 2,
    "voices": 2,
    "first": "2008-01-04T20:49:23+00:00",
    "last": "2008-01-05T08:55:32+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492CAF775@xchange.briercrest.ca>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Eric Ortlund",
        "address": "eortlund at briercrest.ca"
      },
      "date": "2008-01-04T20:49:23+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Two (hopefully) quick questions",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Friends:\n\n1) When Severian meets Dr. Talos toward the end of Citadel, he goes out\nof his way to emphasize to the reader that the coin Dr. Talos gives him\nis the same kind as that which was given to him by Vodalus.  This has\nthe feel (to me, anyway) of one of those Wolfian epiphanies which is\nimplied but which is supposed to break over the reader . . . but I'm not\nbeing epi-phanized.  What is the point of emphasizing that the two coins\nare the same?  That Vodalus and Baldanders are both bad guys - both in\nleague with Abaia?  That seem the most obvious inference to me, but the\nreader knows that already; that doesn't need to be emphasized.  That Dr.\nTalos is trying to draw Severian into his own cause, just as Vodalus did\nwith his coin?  That Baldanders and Vodalus are somehow in league with\neach other?  All of the answers I come up with fail to match the size of\nthe epiphany I think is being suggested.  (I've been trolling through\nold posts, but can't find anything about this.)\n\n2) I know that there has been a lot of discussion about Valeria already,\nbut most of it seemed to center on whether Valeria was a true Autarch -\na question which (no offense intended) doesn't interest me, because it\nseems to be extraneous to the novel itself.  On the other hand, the fact\nthat the ringing of the bells when Autaurch Severian goes to see her is\npractically the last thing we're told in BotNS suggests to me that Wolfe\nis highlighting it - a \"slingshot\" ending, like Able telling us about\nMichael at the end of Wizard Knight (while the reader needs to go back\nand read the conversation between Able and Michael to understand how\nglorious of an ending this is, and how far the slingshot will shoot you\nif you get inside it).  But I'm failing to find the slingshot here.  The\nthree big things we're told about Valeria are that (when Severian first\nmeets her) she has a face which seems incredibly old (despite her young\nlooks), that her family is waiting to travel to the stars with the\nAutaurch, and that she's the last of her line.  That would make sense\nwith the last encounter, when Severian, himself destined to travel to\nthe stars, starts the bells a-ringing in the Atrium of Time.  The only\nother thing I remember being said about her in BotNS is when Severian\ntells the Anchorite Ash that . . . well, he wonders out loud why the\nwalls around the Atrium of Time are so high, since it keeps the sun off\nthe sun dial for all but a few hours a day.  There must be something\nsignificant in that question, but I just can't come up with what it is.\n\nAnd that's it - that's all we're told about her.  The ringing of the\nbells in the Atrium of Time right at the end of the account hints (in my\nmind, anyway) that Valeria is extremely significant.  But I don't know\nhow to put together the information we're given about her to catch the\nslingshot ending here.\n\nThe one helpful thing I found in older posts was that the Atrium of Time\nexists outside of time somehow, which would explain Severian's\ndescription of her when he first meets her.\n\nI'd be most grateful to anyone who, without undue speculation and purely\nfrom within the world of the text, can help me with these questions.\n\nPS - I know this was said already several years ago, but Valeria\nmistranslates the Latin she quotes.\n\nEric Ortlund\nAssistant Professor of Old Testament\nBriercrest Seminary\nhttp://www.briercrest.ca/seminary/prospective/\nhttp://scatterings1976.blogspot.com/\n\n-------------------------\nInvite the next generation of students to consider Briercrest College and Seminary. Visit www.briercrest.ca/refer.  \n-------------------------\nThis e-mail may contain confidential and privileged proprietary material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, or distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, or authorized to receive the information from the recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this message."
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<20080105085533.4B6FBD0038@mailserver10.hushmail.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com",
        "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com"
      },
      "date": "2008-01-05T08:55:32+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Two (hopefully) quick questions",
      "in_reply_to": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA22492CAF775@xchange.briercrest.ca>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 07:49:23 +1100 Eric Ortlund \n<eortlund at briercrest.ca> wrote:\nFriends:\n\n1) When Severian meets Dr. Talos toward the end of Citadel, he \ngoes out\nof his way to emphasize to the reader that the coin Dr. Talos \ngives him\nis the same kind as that which was given to him by Vodalus.  This \nhas\nthe feel (to me, anyway) of one of those Wolfian epiphanies which \nis\nimplied but which is supposed to break over the reader . . . but \nI'm not\nbeing epi-phanized.  What is the point of emphasizing that the two "
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "coins\nare the same?  That Vodalus and Baldanders are both bad guys - \nboth in\nleague with Abaia?  That seem the most obvious inference to me, \nbut the\nreader knows that already; that doesn't need to be emphasized.  \nThat Dr.\nTalos is trying to draw Severian into his own cause, just as \nVodalus did\nwith his coin?  That Baldanders and Vodalus are somehow in league \nwith\neach other?  All of the answers I come up with fail to match the \nsize of\nthe epiphany I think is being suggested.  (I've been trolling \nthrough\nold posts, but can't find anything about this.)"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Remember that Sev saving Vodalus is the key event in the whole \nstory: without it, nothing else would have followed. So says Sev; \nand this is why he starts with it. \n\nIn his recounting of it, Sev identifies taking Vodalus' coin with a \nsoldier taking the \"King's shilling\", the formality which binds the \nsoldier's loyalty. Taking it, Sev becomes a \"Vodalarius\". So on one \nlevel, I think, the falsity of the coin points to the falsity of \nVodalus' cause. And also to the essentially false basis for the \nloyalty, which of course didn't last. \n\nFinally, given my \"Sev2 as cosmic error\" reading, I also take it as \na little marker that the event itself was \"false\" in that sense.\n\nI don't think it's supposed to uncover any particular plot element, \nthough. Vodalus I guess hands out fake coins both to save money and \nalso as a little attack on the soundness of the Commonwealth. We \nknow that he has spies watching Sev and Dr Talos' troupe, so no big \nsurprise if one those spies was in the audience & dropped a fake \nchrisos while fleeing from Baldanders."
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}