{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4967", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4967, "subject": "Damn filthy Hiero-wasp-creatures", "messages": 12, "voices": 8, "first": "2008-01-06T05:18:36+00:00", "last": "2008-01-09T07:48:56+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20080106051836.85B08118039@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-01-06T05:18:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Damn filthy Hiero-wasp-creatures", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In UOTNS, the Hirarchs and Tzadkiel lie repeatedly and harm Sev and \n\nother humans in ways which range from displays of petty malice to \nnear-genocide.\n\nThere is no evidence whatsoever that they are part of a holy \nhierarchy with the Increate at its apex. The only reason for \nbelieving in Hireodudes-as-angels is if one already has a \nconception of a universe structured in such a way, as Sev does.\n\nSev's perceptions are moulded by the religion which he absorbed as \na child and youth, and by his training to obedience to authority as \n\na torturer. The religion, of course, is the one for which he \nhimself provided the founding myth, in Typhon's day. There is no \nconnection to the Increate. In Citadel, when he prays at the \nPelerine altar, he finds the object of his prayers to be himself.\n\nSev's religion is based ultimately on Sev's own claims to be a \nConciliator and the \"miracles\" he performed; of course these \n\"miracles\" were merely phenomena of a higher technology. The \n\"conciliation\" is at best an unfulfilled hope, at worst a lie \ndeliberately engendered by T. There is nothing anywhere to suggest \na closer union between humans and Hiero-people or any benefit to \nhumans. Sev's career as supposed \"Conciliator\" ends with him \nsanctioning the death of most people on Urth. \n\n(Perhaps you could point to the presence of Father Inire and the \nHierodules as some kind of outcome from the \"Conciliation\", but it \nis ahrd to see what particualr benefits they bring, and they would \nappear to be dupes themselves. Eg: Inire believes that the coming \nof a New Sun will see the Commonwealth strengthened. Etc etc etc.)\n\nTzadkiel returns Sev to Typhon's time at least in part so that Sev \nwill cause this religion to establish itself, molding Sev's outlook \n\nin the future in ways favorable to T's agenda. When Sev threatens \nto go off track during his mini-ministry (lasting perhaps a week?), \n\nby breaking out of his cell, T appears to him in a vision barring \nhis way. \n\nAfterwards, by the brook Madregot, mini-Tzadkiel mendaciously \nimplies that she does not know exactly how to guide Sev to return \nto his chosen time. Then she guides him precisely to a re-entry \nwhich puts him back on Urth when it is too late to do anything to \nhelp his people survive the flood, but just in time to see it wash \naway his wife and the last of those people. Her (mocking, I think) \nlaughter follows him.\n\nOn Yesod, T and the Hierarchs display consistent malice and \ncontempt towards humans. It starts pettily enough with the \nHierarchs causing the lander carrying Sev and the crew \nrepresentatives to swoop & loop in a terrifying manner, while the \nHierachs look on with amusement. \n\nThey promise no further tricks, but the whole \"trial\" is a trick. \nThe humans have been tricked into believing they are there simply \nto serve as jury, in the trial of somebody whom they are tricked \ninto believing to be the Autarch. In the event, they are called \nupon to defend their real lives against artificial beings conjured \nfrom Sev's memories. Not having being indoctrinated with the fake \nNew Sun religion, they of course choose Urth over Ushas and \ngenocide - except for Gundie, unanimously.\n\nFor this, they either die or have their memories taken from them. \nThis is no trial, and the crewmen are not jurors. Their \"verdict\" \nis treated as worthless, and they are punished for delivering it.\n\nAs to why T goes through this charade - I think it's probably \nmalice, and for the same kind of amusement the Hierachs enjoyed \nfrom the distress of the humans on the lander. And perhaps to make \nsure that Sev is committed to his role as dupe - if he consents \nstill to the New Sun path after seeing it overwhelmingly rejected \nby his fellow humans then I guess nothing is going to turn him away \n\nfrom it. \n\nOne of his functions no doubt is to take the burden of guilt for \nthe coming destruction away from the Hiero-dudes. As T says in his \nparting words, Urth will be destroyed at *Sev's* command - not T's. \n\nLook, Increate - clean hands! And I sacrificed my own son! (But did \n\nhe care for this son?)\n\nThe Hierogrammates are not angels of the Increate. They appear to \nme to be a species of evolved insect. The Hierachs are their \n\"larvae\" - they live underground, perhaps in something resembling \nan insect nest, but certainly evoking images of Morlocks. I can't \nhelp but think of those varieties of wasp which grow their larvae \ninside the bodies of living hosts, which eventually die from it. \n\nWe know nothing certain of what happened to the original \nhuman/Hieros, but I wouldn't be surprised to find they ended up as \nhosts to the ancestors of the Hierogrammates, and were destroyed. \nPerhaps T's ultimate agenda is to develop humans to the point where \n\nthey are once again suitable for this purpose; not co-evolution, \nbut parasite and host.\n\nOne of the things not to like about this reading is that in some \nways it turns NS into a literary trick analagous to those of the \nHiero-dudes. The reader is duped, just like Sev. If Sev had been \nable to uncloud his mind of all the baggage of vague mysticsm he \nwould have seen malicious wasp-creatures instead of angels. If the \nreader can peel back his layers of preconceptions about what kind \nof story this is, he discovers within them a rather hackneyed pulp-\nSF trope.\n\nPerhaps this points to another reason for Wolfe including the \nSilkHorn-meets-Sev scenes in SS: the (IMO) far greater work \nexpunging or perhaps redeeming the lesser ..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1063810592.20080106213952@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanislaus", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2008-01-06T20:39:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Damn filthy Hiero-wasp-creatures", "in_reply_to": "<20080106051836.85B08118039@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello thalassocrat," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sunday, January 6, 2008, 6:18:36 AM, you wrote:\nIn UOTNS, the Hirarchs and Tzadkiel lie repeatedly and harm Sev and " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "other humans in ways which range from displays of petty malice to \nnear-genocide." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is no evidence whatsoever that they are part of a holy \nhierarchy with the Increate at its apex. The only reason for \nbelieving in Hireodudes-as-angels is if one already has a \nconception of a universe structured in such a way, as Sev does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sev's perceptions are moulded by the religion which he absorbed as \na child and youth, and by his training to obedience to authority as " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "a torturer. The religion, of course, is the one for which he \nhimself provided the founding myth, in Typhon's day. There is no \nconnection to the Increate. In Citadel, when he prays at the \nPelerine altar, he finds the object of his prayers to be himself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sev's religion is based ultimately on Sev's own claims to be a \nConciliator and the \"miracles\" he performed; of course these \n\"miracles\" were merely phenomena of a higher technology. The \n\"conciliation\" is at best an unfulfilled hope, at worst a lie \ndeliberately engendered by T. There is nothing anywhere to suggest \na closer union between humans and Hiero-people or any benefit to \nhumans. ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Hierogrammates are not angels of the Increate. They appear to \nme to be a species of evolved insect. The Hierachs are their \n\"larvae\" - they live underground, perhaps in something resembling \nan insect nest, but certainly evoking images of Morlocks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Neoplatonic philosophy is hard to understand. The hierarchical part is simple, but the ultimate otherness of the Increate is difficult to understand. Severian, however, undestood it, as far as it is possible. Read again the parable of the cock - the angels are still infinitely far from the Increate, and can only guess at his wishes.\n\nThe religion of Urth is much older than Conciliator and in no way depends on his miracles, or in fact on any miracles (although they still happen). It was founded by Theoanthropos. As to the technological explanation for Severian's resurrection - it is not exactly apparent in the books. \n\nThe most important difference is that most religions and philosophies have very different value structures from the modern one. Killing nearly all people on earth certainly was not good, but in the neoplatonic view it was very far from real, important evil. Reading Machen helps to understand that point of view.\n\nhttp://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0601371.txt\n\nHierogrammates are certainly not angels and do not claim it at all. On the other hand such beings as Tzadkiel are very much different from them.\n\nI wonder whether you did read \"Voyage to Arcturus\" by David Lindsay? I think it would have interested you.\n\nhttp://members.aol.com/siure/lindsay.htm" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Best regards,\n Stanislaus mailto:sbocian at poczta.fm\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\nMamy worek pelen prezentow. Te prezenty sa dla Ciebie.\n\nSprawdz >> http://link.interia.pl/f1cbf" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080107091958.0BDAB118039@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-01-07T09:19:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Damn filthy Hiero-wasp-creatures", "in_reply_to": "<1063810592.20080106213952@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 07:39:52 +1100 Stanislaus \nwrote:\nHello thalassocrat,\n\nThe Neoplatonic philosophy is hard to understand. The hierarchical " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "part is simple, but the ultimate otherness of the Increate is \ndifficult to understand. Severian, however, undestood it, as far \nas it is possible. Read again the parable of the cock - the angels " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "are still infinitely far from the Increate, and can only guess at \nhis wishes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's the cock story, and other bits and pieces also. in Dr \nTalos' play, Nod tells Gabriel that he's only guessing at what the \nIncreate wants. G sees he was afraid of that; clearly, the same is \ntrue for him too. There's also the little story of the angel slain \nby an arrow. Gabriel says: \"If I had known we could die, I would \nnot at all times have been so brave\" - or words to that effect. \n\nAll of these little markers support my view. Thinking of \"Gabriel\" \nin these stories as a reflection of the real Hierogrammates, they \ntell us that such \"angels\" are neither spiritual beings (they can \ndie) nor the direct agents of the Increate. It may even be true \nthat T et al believe they are working the will of the Increate - \nsuch convenient self-deception isn't very uncommon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The religion of Urth is much older than Conciliator and in no way \ndepends on his miracles, or in fact on any miracles (although they " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "still happen). It was founded by Theoanthropos. As to the \ntechnological explanation for Severian's resurrection - it is not \nexactly apparent in the books. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps parts of the religion, or the framing of the religion, are \nolder than the Conciliator - there is no way of knowing - but \neverything suggests that the main focus of the religion is now the \nNew Sun/Conciliator as holy hero, perhaps as an avatar of the \nIncreate, although that is never made very clear. \n\nThe Pelerines are devoted to Conciliator-worship. The carolyer on \nthe scaffold in Saltus starts by addressing the Increate but in \nthis fragment clearly addresses a New Sun mythologized from Sev's \nmission in Typhon's day: \"You, the hero who will destroy the black \nworm that devours the sky; for whom the sky parts as a curtain; you \nwhose breath shall wither vast Abaia etc etc etc\". Ditto for the \nConciliator/New Sun to whom Agia, Dorcas and others refer as an \naspect of the divine. Ditto for every reference to Urthly religion \nI can recall.\n\nWithout Sev's mission, the Conciliator/New Sun figure would not \nexist in the religion of his youth. There would presumably be some \nother divine hero-type, but not this one & not one which would set \na religious context for Sev thinking that the New Sun was an \nabsolutely unquestionably good thing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The most important difference is that most religions and \nphilosophies have very different value structures from the modern \none. Killing nearly all people on earth certainly was not good, \nbut in the neoplatonic view it was very far from real, important \nevil. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That for me would be an enormous argument against ever signing up \nfor a neoplatonic religion. Really, I think part of Wolfe's \nintention is a critique of those kinds of religious sensibility \nwhich can lead one to consider genocide as anything but an \n\"important evil\". He puffs up a cloud of this neoplatonic, gnostic, \nwhatever mumbo-jumbo jargon and imagery, but underneath it you have \na core reality of (maybe) parisitoid wasp creaqtures, demonstrably \nmalevolent towards humanity & in no way divine. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hierogrammates are certainly not angels and do not claim it at \nall. On the other hand such beings as Tzadkiel are very much \ndifferent from them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not sure I understand this. T is of course a Hierogrammate. He sure \ndoesn't go much out of his way to dispel the angel image. Think of \nthe scene in his captain's cabin when Sev & Gunnie are returning to \nUrth, putting on a show of power and majesty to awe the humans. \nAnother piece of trickery. Of course, we know that he isn't an \nangelic being; just another creature whom the Hiero/humans moulded \nin some fashion.\n\nPerhaps you're thinking of the Hierarchs or Hierodules?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wonder whether you did read \"Voyage to Arcturus\" by David \nLindsay? I think it would have interested you." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I probably will read it, thanks." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-01-08T01:59:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Damn filthy Hiero-wasp-creatures", "in_reply_to": "<20080107091958.0BDAB118039@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 7 Jan 2008, thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\nOn Mon, 07 Jan 2008 07:39:52 +1100 Stanislaus \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hello thalassocrat,\n\n\nThe most important difference is that most religions and\nphilosophies have very different value structures from the modern\none. Killing nearly all people on earth certainly was not good,\nbut in the neoplatonic view it was very far from real, important\nevil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That for me would be an enormous argument against ever signing up\nfor a neoplatonic religion. Really, I think part of Wolfe's\nintention is a critique of those kinds of religious sensibility [...]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unfortunately I am not au fait with theological thought about the \nNoachian Flood, but I suspect it is not usually regarded as an \nevil by RCs.\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080108022957.38131D0038@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-01-08T02:29:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Damn filthy Hiero-wasp-creatures", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 12:59:23 +1100 David Duffy \n wrote:\n\nUnfortunately I am not au fait with theological thought about the \nNoachian Flood, but I suspect it is not usually regarded as an \nevil by RCs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess the really-truly God gets a free pass to do whatever he \nwants & it is by definition \"good\", since it's his game. \n\nI don't think the same applies to creatures, like Hierogrammates." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c851c0$f2be7d40$38ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-01-08T06:37:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Damn filthy Hiero-wasp-creatures", "in_reply_to": "<20080108022957.38131D0038@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nThere is no evidence whatsoever that they are part of a holy\nhierarchy with the Increate at its apex." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As you are doubtless aware, I have argued the opposite view before, so I\nwon't bother to repeat it all. I can't, of course, prove the Increate's\ninvolvement because the Increate never appears on the stage. Just a few\ncomments." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sev's religion is based ultimately on Sev's own claims to be a\nConciliator and the \"miracles\" he performed; of course these\n\"miracles\" were merely phenomena of a higher technology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev's abilities to heal and to raise the dead to life again are not the\nproducts of alien high-tech. Even mighty Tzadkiel could not heal Herena's\narm or raise Zama to life the way Sev did, as Barbatus explained when Sev\ncomplained of being brought back to life as a mere high-tech eidolon. (URTH,\n359-60)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One of his functions no doubt is to take the burden of guilt for\nthe coming destruction away from the Hiero-dudes. As T says in his\nparting words, Urth will be destroyed at *Sev's* command - not T's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And just before saying that, Tzadkiel said, \"The death agonies of the world\nyou know will be offered to the Increate. [. . .] Much that is beautiful\nwill perish, and with it most of your race; but your home will be reborn.\"\n(153) And that seems to be the point of it all. Bad-ol'-Man needed to be\nslapped down -- again. That's how the god-game works. Sacrifice in an\nattempt to placate a wrathful god, a conciliation made by a conciliator.\nOnly Sev isn't the one who had to pay the price, no matter how bad he said\nhe felt about it all after the fact. After all, torturers are famous for\ntheir sympathetic qualities.\n\nIn any event, BF&O thought of themselves as holy slaves, but they were not\nTzadkiel's slaves, even though they had been fashioned by the\nHierogrammates. As Famulimus said, \" How could Hierodules be holy, did we\nnot serve the Increate? Our master is he, and he only.\" (36) My point here\nis that both the Hierogrammates and their helpers seem to believe that they\nwere serving the Increate when they did what they did, to, for and about the\npeople of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps this points to another reason for Wolfe including the\nSilkHorn-meets-Sev scenes in SS: the (IMO) far greater work\nexpunging or perhaps redeeming the lesser ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Silkhorn continued to make sacrificial offerings to the Outsider, even after\nhe was on Blue and gave up on being just a reader of entrails. You seem to\nthink Silkhorn a fine, upstanding dude and the Outsider the True God.\nSilkhorn did the same thing Severian-the-Conciliator did, only on a smaller\nscale; a matter of degree, not kind. If Wolfe's work is any indicator of his\nreligious leanings, he seems to regard the concept of religious sacrifice in\na favorable light.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0801080452r647ce047oee513a8c10778e51@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-01-08T12:52:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Damn filthy Hiero-wasp-creatures", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c851c0$f2be7d40$38ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 5, 2008 11:18 PM, wrote:\n\nOne of the things not to like about this reading is that in some\nways it turns NS into a literary trick analogous to those of the\nHiero-dudes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Speaking for myself, this is the nail in the coffin of this reading.\nCalling it a \"literary trick\" makes it sound like something Wolfe\nmight do, but really it just turns too much of The Book of the New Sun\ninto a Big Fat Lie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 8, 2008 12:37 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\nAs you are doubtless aware, I have argued the opposite view before" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy, would it be possible for you to find and post a link to that old argument?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080108130814.77B27118039@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-01-08T13:08:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Damn filthy Hiero-wasp-creatures", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0801080452r647ce047oee513a8c10778e51@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 17:37:27 +1100 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\n\nSev's religion is based ultimately on Sev's own claims to be a\nConciliator and the \"miracles\" he performed; of course these\n\"miracles\" were merely phenomena of a higher technology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sev's abilities to heal and to raise the dead to life again are \nnot the\nproducts of alien high-tech. Even mighty Tzadkiel could not heal \nHerena's\narm or raise Zama to life the way Sev did, as Barbatus explained \nwhen Sev\ncomplained of being brought back to life as a mere high-tech \neidolon. (URTH,\n359-60)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A couple of things. First, I think the Hierodules are dupes. They \nprobably believe all this hogwash. (I think Father Inire is a dupe \nalso, whether or not he's actually a Hierodule.)\n\nSecond, I concede that maybe not everything Sev does faux-miracle-\nwise has a Tzadkiel-tech basis. Another annoying but evident \npossibility is that Sev somehow or other has Magic Blood which lets \nhim draw & focus energy from external sources in time-twisting \nways. \n\nEven if this is the case, it doesn't imply any kind of divine \norigin for this power & it remains the case that it was Sev's own \nmiracles which boosted the establishment of the New Sun religion, \nwhich was my original point.\n\nSev may be the Hierogrammate's chosen one just because this Magic \nBlood is a necessary attribute of what they want from the Hieros, \npossibly the original source of their own time-twisting powers. At \nleast this would provide some better motivation for the question of \nwhy Sev. Perhaps he's supposed to mate with every female on Ushas \nor something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One of his functions no doubt is to take the burden of guilt for\nthe coming destruction away from the Hiero-dudes. As T says in \nhis\nparting words, Urth will be destroyed at *Sev's* command - not \nT's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And just before saying that, Tzadkiel said, \"The death agonies of \nthe world\nyou know will be offered to the Increate. [. . .] Much that is \nbeautiful\nwill perish, and with it most of your race; but your home will be \nreborn.\"\n(153) And that seems to be the point of it all. Bad-ol'-Man needed " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to be\nslapped down -- again. That's how the god-game works. Sacrifice in " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "an\nattempt to placate a wrathful god, a conciliation made by a \nconciliator.\nOnly Sev isn't the one who had to pay the price, no matter how bad " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "he said\nhe felt about it all after the fact. After all, torturers are \nfamous for\ntheir sympathetic qualities." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course, as you say, it comes down to whether or not you think \nTzadkiel actually has any idea of what the Increate might want. I \nthink it fits better to assume that Wolfe's Increate is not in fact \na wrathful Jehovah figure, and Tzadkiel is bullshitting himself \nand/or Sev. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In any event, BF&O thought of themselves as holy slaves, but they \nwere not\nTzadkiel's slaves, even though they had been fashioned by the\nHierogrammates. As Famulimus said, \" How could Hierodules be holy, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "did we\nnot serve the Increate? Our master is he, and he only.\" (36) My \npoint here\nis that both the Hierogrammates and their helpers seem to believe \nthat they\nwere serving the Increate when they did what they did, to, for and " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "about the\npeople of Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But obviously, belieiving it doesn't make it true. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps this points to another reason for Wolfe including the\nSilkHorn-meets-Sev scenes in SS: the (IMO) far greater work\nexpunging or perhaps redeeming the lesser ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silkhorn continued to make sacrificial offerings to the Outsider, \neven after\nhe was on Blue and gave up on being just a reader of entrails. You " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "seem to\nthink Silkhorn a fine, upstanding dude and the Outsider the True \nGod.\nSilkhorn did the same thing Severian-the-Conciliator did, only on \na smaller\nscale; a matter of degree, not kind. If Wolfe's work is any \nindicator of his\nreligious leanings, he seems to regard the concept of religious \nsacrifice in\na favorable light." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Really, I think Wolfe would indeed see a qualitative difference \nbetween sacrificing animals and killing off most of a planet full \nof humans, as I imagine most people would. Maybe that's actually a \nbad distinction, but I don't think Wolfe would aagree. I certainly \ndon't think SilkHorn is perfect, and in fact I think sacrifice is \nan area where he's a bit of dunce. He never seems to get the point \nof Oreb squawking \"No cut!\" all the time. \n\nBut I think Olivine's little communion is supposed to show that \nSilk did decide that sacrifices weren't pleasing to the Outsider, \nthe only god. SilkHorn doesn't explicitly remember this decision, \nbut think of his \"sacrifice\" of bread and wine to the Outsider \nafter the Battle of Blanko. Also think of his digust at the hordes \nof animals slaughtered in the sacrifice in the Grand Manteion in \nRTTW. \n\nI wouldn't be surprise to find that SilkHorn would still \nparticipate in animal sacrifices even if he did remember the \ndecision, if necessary. He'd just think of them as rather \nmeaningless and distasteful.\n\nAnd, obviously, I do indeed think that Wolfe intends SilkHorn to be \na very fine upstanding dude, and the Outsider to be the really-\ntruly God. (Obviously, that doesn't mean that I necessarily agree \nthat SilkHorn is my idea of an exemplar or that I actually believe \nin any kind of god.)\n\nOne final thing: Wikipedia says Tzadkiel is supposed by some to be \nthe angel who stopped Abraham from killing Isaac. I vaguely recall \nthat this is supposed to be the definitive point at which Yahweh \nmade it clear that human sacrifice is a Bad Thing. It seems that \neven T's name is a lie. \n\nBut I don't think he always lies. Eg: Mini-T says to Sev beside \nMadregot: \"I've many times been called a liar\". " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1C9AB550-0193-47B0-B017-CC99DC91225E@comcast.net>", "from": { "name": "Steven", "address": "mcquaryq at comcast.net" }, "date": "2008-01-08T17:47:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Damn filthy Hiero-wasp-creatures", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c851c0$f2be7d40$38ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI've just started Pirate Freedom and have been having similar, \nthough more confused thoughts about GW's 'real' religious thought. \nIt's hard for me to square a number of items in his many books with \nhis professed Catholicism. Normally, I'd just say: Well, the author \nis a fantasist and has a writing persona and then, separately, \nthere's his real life feelings. But GW seems to purposefully entwine \nthe two and it makes me wonder at the value he places on belief. Or \nam I just a dupe, falling for the seeming veritas of his writing?\n\n\tAny thoughts? I'm a Spinozist myself and have no ax to grind in the \ndogma wars." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 8, 2008, at 1:37 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n If Wolfe's work is any indicator of his\nreligious leanings, he seems to regard the concept of religious \nsacrifice in\na favorable light." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Steven\nhttp://bowenfineart.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<95F1D54F-5845-462F-9996-5BCF34686E3E@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-01-08T18:09:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Damn filthy Hiero-wasp-creatures", "in_reply_to": "<1C9AB550-0193-47B0-B017-CC99DC91225E@comcast.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remember that Wolfe uses narrators to tell his story -- unreliable \nones. Anything written in the narrative voice should be taken to be \nthe thought of the narrator, not necessarily Wolfe himself. That, and \nCatholicism isn't necessarily a monolithic edifice of thought. I can \ncertainly see where various philosophical and theological schools \ninfluence the \"mythology\" of Wolfe's works, as it were. I don't think \nWolfe intends to endorse these as a proper system of belief so much as \nhe uses them to make his works interesting and meaningful.\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 8, 2008, at 11:47 AM, Steven wrote:\n\tI've just started Pirate Freedom and have been having similar, \nthough more confused thoughts about GW's 'real' religious thought. \nIt's hard for me to square a number of items in his many books with \nhis professed Catholicism. Normally, I'd just say: Well, the \nauthor is a fantasist and has a writing persona and then, \nseparately, there's his real life feelings. But GW seems to \npurposefully entwine the two and it makes me wonder at the value he \nplaces on belief. Or am I just a dupe, falling for the seeming \nveritas of his writing?\n\n\tAny thoughts? I'm a Spinozist myself and have no ax to grind in \nthe dogma wars.\n\n\nOn Jan 8, 2008, at 1:37 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " If Wolfe's work is any indicator of his\nreligious leanings, he seems to regard the concept of religious \nsacrifice in\na favorable light." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Steven\nhttp://bowenfineart.com/\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002701c85235$5f1f72e0$bccb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-01-08T20:30:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Damn filthy Hiero-wasp-creatures", "in_reply_to": "<95F1D54F-5845-462F-9996-5BCF34686E3E@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:\nOn Jan 8, 2008 12:37 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As you are doubtless aware, I have argued the opposite view before" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy, would it be possible for you to find and post a link to that old\nargument?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's been debated more than once, largely by Adam Stephanides and myself, so\nit's not neatly packaged in one place. The last round was in March of '05,\nin the \"Increate on trial\" thread.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<47847C68.4050404@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-01-09T07:48:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Damn filthy Hiero-wasp-creatures", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c851c0$f2be7d40$38ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nAndrew wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One of his functions no doubt is to take the burden of guilt for\nthe coming destruction away from the Hiero-dudes. As T says in his\nparting words, Urth will be destroyed at *Sev's* command - not T's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And just before saying that, Tzadkiel said, \"The death agonies of the world\nyou know will be offered to the Increate. [. . .] Much that is beautiful\nwill perish, and with it most of your race; but your home will be reborn.\"\n(153) And that seems to be the point of it all. Bad-ol'-Man needed to be\nslapped down -- again. That's how the god-game works. Sacrifice in an\nattempt to placate a wrathful god, a conciliation made by a conciliator.\nOnly Sev isn't the one who had to pay the price, no matter how bad he said\nhe felt about it all after the fact. After all, torturers are famous for\ntheir sympathetic qualities." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Severian is also the Autarch, the Epitome of Urth - so it's a \nwilling, self-sacrifice as far as that goes. (Severian survives, but is \nno longer Autarch or epitome of anything.)\n\nOr not. All of this, with the \"higher\" creatures knowing no better the \nIncreate's wishes, and with \"evil\" men actually serving the greater good \nby their parts in the Increate's plan - it makes a pretty good case for \nmoral relativism." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }