Subject: (urth) Fuligin invented

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:59:12 +0000

You and me both.

/Now, if only I could get someone to forge me _Terminus Est_...

Lane

On Jan 16, 2008, at 5:00 PM, Daniel D Jones wrote:

> At least, that was the first thing I though of when I read this  
> article:
>
> http://www.physorg.com/news119554586.html
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net

---

From: Daniel D Jones <ddjones at riddlemaster.org>
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:00:37 +0000

At least, that was the first thing I though of when I read this article:

---

From: Matthew Keeley <matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:06:52 +0000

> /Now, if only I could get someone to forge me _Terminus Est_...

Well, you could at least imitate the good Dr. Talos:
http://www.swordcane.com/burger_swords_home.htm

Of course, you might have to break a few minor state laws to do so,
but it's a small price, surely?

-Matt

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 00:29:27 +0000

I believe that TE is based on an actual type of executioner's sword.

.

---

From: gwern0 at gmail.com <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 01:01:29 +0000

> I believe that TE is based on an actual type of executioner's sword.

Yes. I was surprised when I happened to be reading a book on torture and other judicial punishments and came across its description of a 'sword of justice' <https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Sword_of_Justice>, a distinct style of swords. If you look at this picture of one <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Noe_sword.jpg>, you'll notice the described characteristics of our beloved Terminus Est!

--
gwern
NATIA DIA Burns espionage 97 utopia orthodox Meade cond SOCIMI
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20080116/4356eb3c/attachment.pgp

---

From: matthew at calmeilles.co.uk <matthew at calmeilles.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:26:25 +0000

> I believe that TE is based on an actual type of executioner's sword.

Developed from the bastard or hand and a half sword in Europe although I've not come across a reference to anything quite as long as TE is described.

Matthew

---

From: Steven <mcquaryq at comcast.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:45:27 +0000

Nor with a vein of mercury running down its length.
On Jan 17, 2008, at 4:26 AM, matthew at calmeilles.co.uk wrote:

> I've not come across a reference to anything quite as long as TE is  
> described.

Steven
http://bowenfineart.com/

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20080117/3203cf75/attachment.htm

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:58:02 +0000

That sucker in the wiki article was as long as TE. Couldn't tell if it had
a mercury channel, but that kind of thing would be obvious. I have heard
of swords with sliding weights also.

So Severian wasn't joking when he said the horizontal stroke was harder
than the vertical one....

.

> Developed from the bastard or hand and a half sword in Europe although

---

From: Matthew Keeley <matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:01:57 +0000

> than the vertical one....

According to the Wikipedia article, "The Sword of Justice at the
Higgins Armory Museum is a fine example of such ceremonial weapons
used to designate status and authority." If that's the sword in the
picture, that's really neat, as the Higgins is only about fifteen
minutes' walk from my house. I'll check it out next time I'm at home
(i.e. in six months) and ask about weights and mercury in blades of
that type. If anyone would know about that sort of thing, it's the
folks at the Higgins. I'll see if I can get some relevant pictures as
well.

I recall that Wolfe mentioned basing TE off real swords, so I wouldn't
be surprised if the Higgins had something similar.

So... report forthcoming I guess.

-Matt

---

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:20:21 +0000

I've never heard of an actual mercury channel in a sword. I can ask on  
a swordsmanship forum I frequent (where several smiths post) to see if  
it's feasible. From what I understand of sword structure, it's not.  
You need the center part of the sword to be the strongest part, and  
that usually means it needs to be softer and more ductile than the  
surrounding steel. Cutting a big channel out of the middle of it might  
weaken its structural integrity to the point where it would be useless  
for cutting.

The idea is that the edges, the parts that need to be sharp, should be  
harder. When steel hardens, it becomes more brittle. Brittle steel  
will sharpen and hold an edge. But it's also weak. If you made the  
whole sword out of really hard steel it would chip and shatter  
whenever it made contact with something. So you make the non-edge part  
of the sword out of softer, more flexible metal so that it will  
actually absorb shock. But cutting a big channel out of the middle  
would remove a lot of the shock-absorbing material.

Lane

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:37:41 +0000

All true ... But ... Do we know of what metal "Terminus Est" is actually
made? Even if Severian calls it steel (which I don't recall offhand), that
could be a "translation factor," after all. Who's to say that TE isn't a
"galaxy level" piece of technology, some bit of metallurgical alchemy
far beyond what we can produce right now?

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant
-----
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer
http://www.danehyoakes.com

I saw a dirty overcoat at the foot of the pillar of the road/and
propped inside was an old man whom time could not erode

---

From: gwern0 at gmail.com <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:44:15 +0000

> weaken its structural integrity to the point where it would be useless

When it was described, the way I thought it was done was like this: swords sometimes have 'blood grooves' (fullers), right? This produces a slight volume down the middle which you could fill up - maybe you could weld a flat strip down the length of the blade, or fold over a section of the blade and create a sealed space that way. To make it symmetrical you could either do the same thing to the other side (if the blade in cross-section kind of looks like an I-beam), or have just a single fuller/mercury-channel. It'd be very tricky to have a good welded channel or to preserve the void while working it in the other method, yes, but it doesn't seem impossible to this layperson. :)

> would remove a lot of the shock-absorbing material.

I don't think fullers are always cut - <https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Fuller_(weapon)> says you could also just press or bend the blade.

--
gwern
Macintosh Fortezza Ortega GAFE Internet Fox WQC wire SLI Gist
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20080117/b21b5d29/attachment.pgp

---

From: gwern0 at gmail.com <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:13:33 +0000

> So... report forthcoming I guess.

Actually, if you do go, I would love for you to get some more pictures and especially note down any information appertaining to swords of justice - I wrote the Wikipedia article, but I didn't take the picture of the sword, and I've always been slightly worried that it wasn't what it seemed to be. (Also, my sources on the topic were thinner than I'd've liked.)

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20080117/2c512ff2/attachment.pgp

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:20:58 +0000

I know what you are talking about, here, but if I am right it should be
possible by making the middle part extra thick. You might even want to run
a brass tube up it after you bore it out and put the mercury inside the
brass tube. That should do it. And you could maintain it if you ran the
end of the tube up into the tang and put a screw cap on it.

.

---

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:57:23 +0000

That's one of the things commonly debated in sword-aficionado circles  
(metallurgy, not Gene Wolfe). The problem is something on a more basic  
level -- there is a constant, almost-perpetual trade-off between the  
properties that make a sword useful. The harder something is (e.g.,  
diamond) the more brittle it is in larger blades. But the softer  
something is, the more of a chance it will set at an unnatural angle  
or be impossible to sharpen.

Even with metals other than steel that display a greater strength  
(e.g., titanium) there are other, associated defects. Titanium is  
lighter than steel, which means that although you can create a  
sharper, stronger sword out of it, it won't do you much of anything  
insofar as cutting is concerned because there's insufficient weight  
behind the blade to cut. In order for TE to be Hiero-something  
technology, it would have to be made of a metal that surpasses the  
current limitations of our understanding, not just our ability.

Which is not to say that in the context of a world where time travel  
and the supernatural is possible that it would be unfeasible for TE to  
be made according to magical/advanced technological rules (I'm  
reminded of Heinlein's quote that one man's sorcery is another's  
engineering), but rather that there is no good reason based on our  
current metallurgical science to believe that such a material is  
feasible.

In re: fullers

A fuller (erroneously called a blood groove since it does nothing with  
blood) is usually just hammered in to the blade. It's done to either  
reduce weight or to change the cross-section shape of the sword (which  
is useful for various purposes). The reason why I'm skeptical (and I  
am by no means the expert; I've asked the experts and am waiting on a  
response) is that the hollow space in the middle of the blade would  
necessarily take away from the shock-absorbing value of having  a mass  
of softer metal in the middle of the blade. If you get a chance, go  
handle a longsword or two-hander from a collector, or see if you have  
a friend that has a functional replica made by a reputable company  
(e.g., Angus Trim, Arms and Armor, Del Tin, etc.). Watch the sword  
flex and look closely at the way it's constructed in the middle of the  
blade. I can take pictures of my Viking sword at home (which has a  
very wide fuller) and show you. It's a pressed/hammered fuller.

Lane

---

From: Matthew Keeley <matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 23:03:06 +0000

> very wide fuller) and show you. It's a pressed/hammered fuller.

I for one would be interested in seeing that. Didn't know we had a
sword expert on the list.

And I WILL try and get some Higgins pictures when I get back home in
May or June... A wait I know, but as much as I like the Urth list, I
generally wouldn't travel 3000 miles for it.

-Matt