{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4973", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4973, "subject": "Graves etc. (was: A Cabin on the Coast)", "messages": 9, "voices": 6, "first": "2008-01-17T07:39:05+00:00", "last": "2008-01-26T03:04:06+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<39ed084f0801162339j6237ea6di8fee2a53745c5777@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-01-17T07:39:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Graves etc. (was: A Cabin on the Coast)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 16, 2008 5:04 PM, Matthew Keeley wrote:\nI saw your \"Interpreting Wolfe\" list on Amazon; I see you put The\nWhite Goddess on that too. It's one of those things I've been meaning\nto read for a while, and learning it's influenced by Wolfe makes me\nwant to read it more. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm glad you found that Amazon list. I've been creating for myself a\ncourse in Wolfe-related readings, trying to fill in the vast holes in\nmy very pragmatic public school education.* The list on Amazon is one\nproduct of that course. I've been altering it now and then as I find\nnew books and reject some less helpful or less interesting ones.\n\nThere's no doubt in my mind that Wolfe has read The Golden Bough at\nleast in abridged form, along with Joseph Campbell's works. Also, The\nGolden Bough is the basis for much of Graves's work in The White\nGoddess. (But I suggest you read Graves not as if it were\nanthropology or even comparative mythology, but as fantasy. Fantasy\nnon-fiction. That's how I have to read it. It's too improbable for\nme to read it as scholarship.)\n\nI'm sure others can speak more knowledgeably about Graves than I can.\nI have found The White Goddess to be very difficult, slow going,\nparticularly since I have almost no background in the things he's\ntalking about (sometimes I don't even know what he's talking about).**\n The thing in Pirate Freedom that suggests Graves's influence is the\nrelationship between Chris/Ignacio*** and Novia.**** I think this\nrelationship is one of Wolfe's versions of / reactions to Graves's\n\"Single Poetic Theme\", which Graves summarizes thus:\n\n\"The Theme, briefly, is the antique story ... of the birth, life,\ndeath and resurrection of the God of the Waxing Year; the central\nchapters concern the God's losing battle with the God of the Waning\nYear for love of the capricious and all-powerful Threefold Goddess,\ntheir mother, bride, and layer-out. The poet identifies himself with\nthe God of the Waxing Year and his Muse with the Goddess; the rival is\nhis blood-brother, his other self, his weird.\"\n\nSo the Theme is a cyclical one (reflecting the year cycle, the sowing\nand reaping of grain), a loop like the plot of Pirate Freedom. The\nadvent of genetic cloning affords an sf trope on this ancient myth.\n\nWhile it has been a terribly difficult read for me, I would encourage\nyou to read The White Goddess, if for no other reason than that it has\nbeen tough going alone, and might be instructive and interesting to\ndiscuss it on the list. I think it would interesting to work out\nwhere its influence on Wolfe appears, and how Wolfe's own interests\nand beliefs, particularly his Catholicism, lead him to deviate from\nthis Single Poetic Theme.\n\n* I'm tempted to rant here about the state of public education in the\nUS -- and how, however much we are behind in math and science, we are\nten times worse in our neglect of the humanities.\n\n** I suppose what I need now is a reading list for understanding\nGraves's The White Goddess, but I'm presently unwilling to go there.\n\n*** and perhaps extending to Se or Guzman and Chris's child.\n\n**** and maybe Estrellita? Azuka? Pinkie?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<003e01c85992$225740e0$b7c95a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-01-18T05:22:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Graves etc.", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0801162339j6237ea6di8fee2a53745c5777@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wrote:\nI vowed at the time Marc Aramini posted what Wolfe really had to say about\n_The White Goddess_ that I was going to post a link to that post every time\nsomeone raised the specter of _The White Goddess_ and its supposed\ninfluence\non Wolfe. I can't seem to find it now, so it must be in the year of lost\narchives. Could you send it again, Marc?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Marc didn't answer, but I'm not the only one to remember that post.\nThanks to Tony Ellis, I am able to append it here. The post is, indeed, in\nthe lost year of archives. I know it upsets many long-held and cherished\ntheories of Wolfe interpretation, which is probably why it has been widely\nforgotten, but it bears repeating.\n\n-Roy\n\n*************************************************\n\n from aramini1 at cox.net\n to urth at urth.net,\n date May 22, 2004 12:09 AM\n subject (urth) wolfe's comments on a few texts\n\n I asked Mr. Wolfe about a few books which have come up under\ndiscussion on the list as possible sources for his work. I thought\nsome of us would be interested in his response, so I'll quote it.\nKeep in mind that I asked his opinion about the books, so he is just\nanswering my questions.\n\n \"You asked about some books. I haven't read KING JESUS. I read\nenough of THE WHITE GODDESS (which is still around here somewhere) to\nconclude that Graves, with all his talent, was a crackpot. Have you\nread I, CLAUDIUS? Or HERCULES MY SHIPMATE? They're fine, fine books,\nboth of them. I read one book by Mary Renault; I'm no longer sure of\nthe title. It bored me halfway to madness, and I've never tried\nanything else.\"\n\n I thought that was interesting.\n\n Marc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0801181509s57b6adb3i7890c7f4603daf59@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-01-18T23:09:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Graves etc.", "in_reply_to": "<003e01c85992$225740e0$b7c95a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/17/08, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nI know it upsets many long-held and cherished\ntheories of Wolfe interpretation, which is probably why it has been widely\nforgotten, but it bears repeating.\n\n-Roy\n\n \"I read enough of THE WHITE GODDESS (which is still around here somewhere) to conclude that Graves, with all his talent, was a crackpot.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Upsets\" nothing! Wolfe fans rejoice; you don't have to read The\nWhite Goddess! Philosophically, TWG is pretty much diametrically\nopposed to Wolfe anyway, TWG being in part a sort of lamenting of the\ngreat apostasy that is the shift from worship of the Goddess to\nJudeo-Christian worship.\n\nI do recommend Graves's book on the Greek myths -- very handy for the\netymology of names. But it sounds like Frazer's The Golden Bough is\nprobably a better source Wolfe's reception of comparative mythology\nand religion." } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10801181538l6c969b9v91cbe0dc0180731d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-01-18T23:38:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Graves etc.", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0801181509s57b6adb3i7890c7f4603daf59@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do recommend Graves's book on the Greek myths -- very handy for the\netymology of names. But it sounds like Frazer's The Golden Bough is\nprobably a better source Wolfe's reception of comparative mythology\nand religion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not that Frazer is much closer to Wolfe's views - he was very critical\nof Christianity. Parts of the Golden Bough are direct attempts to\nundermine Christian beliefs. Alas, I doubt any of us will read the\nwhole thing - it's about thirteen volumes, and the only\nreadily-available print version is the Oxford University Press\nabridgment (which is still 800 pages long). Frazer's own two-volume\nabridgment is out-of-print and apparently doesn't have some of the\nmost interesting and controversial material. The abridgment is\navailable online at Project Gutenberg though:\n\nhttp://www.gutenberg.org/etext/3623\n\nDo check it out. Unlike The White Goddess, Frazer is fun to read.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<462009.39677.qm@web58215.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-01-19T04:24:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Graves etc.", "in_reply_to": "<003e01c85992$225740e0$b7c95a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "sorry roy, hadn't checked my email for a few days.\n\nYes, I was about to post something to that effect -\nWolfe is a reader of fiction, and while he researches\nhis novels, I think we would be surprised to note how\nmuch time he has spent exclusively writing rather than\namassing a huge collection of esoteric and obscure\nbooks that he peruses in his infinite time. \n\nI think he once told me he hadn't gotten far in War\nand Peace, nor read the entirety of Brothers\nKaramazov. However, to be fair, he has certainly read\nall of Dickens and Proust and Herodotus and\nChesterton, and the other obvious influences.\n\nBut you don't have to have read everything to be a\ngreat creator, eh?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\nI wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I vowed at the time Marc Aramini posted what Wolfe\nreally had to say about\n_The White Goddess_ that I was going to post a link\nto that post every time\nsomeone raised the specter of _The White Goddess_\nand its supposed\ninfluence\non Wolfe. I can't seem to find it now, so it must\nbe in the year of lost\narchives. Could you send it again, Marc?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, Marc didn't answer, but I'm not the only one\nto remember that post.\nThanks to Tony Ellis, I am able to append it here.\nThe post is, indeed, in\nthe lost year of archives. I know it upsets many\nlong-held and cherished\ntheories of Wolfe interpretation, which is probably\nwhy it has been widely\nforgotten, but it bears repeating.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c85a62$3a706b40$d2cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-01-19T06:12:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Graves etc.", "in_reply_to": "<462009.39677.qm@web58215.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Matthew Groves quoted and wrote:\nI know it upsets many long-held and cherished\ntheories of Wolfe interpretation, which is probably why it has been\nwidely\nforgotten, but it bears repeating.\n\n-Roy\n\n \"I read enough of THE WHITE GODDESS (which is still around here\nsomewhere) to conclude that Graves, with all his talent, was a crackpot.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Upsets\" nothing! Wolfe fans rejoice; you don't have to read The\nWhite Goddess!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wouldn't discourage anyone from reading TWG -- I've read it several times\nmyself, decades ago. It has a certain appeal, even fascination, for young\nmales of a certain poetic bent; but Lupine it ain't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Philosophically, TWG is pretty much diametrically\nopposed to Wolfe anyway, TWG being in part a sort of lamenting of the\ngreat apostasy that is the shift from worship of the Goddess to\nJudeo-Christian worship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. Which is why I was decrying it as a source for interpreting Wolfe\nlong before I knew that Wolfe hadn't even finished reading it. But if you\nlook through the archives you will be amazed at how often someone cites TWG\nas justification for some theory or other about understanding Wolfe. It's\nbeen done with KING JESUS, too. And people become strident in defense of the\nindefensible. (Rant stifled.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do recommend Graves's book on the Greek myths -- very handy for the\netymology of names." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alice K. Turner once posted her comments on that book and some on TWG that\nmight be of interest.\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0304/3337.txt.shtml\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080119065043.3CB431A0039@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-01-19T06:50:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Graves etc.", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c85a62$3a706b40$d2cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:24:06 +1100 Marc Aramini \n wrote:\nsorry roy, hadn't checked my email for a few days.\n\nYes, I was about to post something to that effect -\nWolfe is a reader of fiction, and while he researches\nhis novels, I think we would be surprised to note how\nmuch time he has spent exclusively writing rather than\namassing a huge collection of esoteric and obscure\nbooks that he peruses in his infinite time. \n\nI think he once told me he hadn't gotten far in War\nand Peace, nor read the entirety of Brothers\nKaramazov. However, to be fair, he has certainly read\nall of Dickens and Proust and Herodotus and\nChesterton, and the other obvious influences.\n\nBut you don't have to have read everything to be a\ngreat creator, eh?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some people seem to think it would have been a good thing if Wolfe \nhad intended to rewrite Graves, Nabokov, Dostoyevsky, Borges, \nJoyce, Dante, The Green Knight, Parsifal, The Magus etc etc etc. \n\nI've never really understood that. Apart from anything else, I get \nthe impression that Wolfe thinks he can do a lot better than most \nof these supposed models. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<479A98B1.8010702@charter.net>", "from": { "name": "JWillard", "address": "aldenweer at charter.net" }, "date": "2008-01-26T02:19:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Graves etc.", "in_reply_to": "<20080119065043.3CB431A0039@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\nOn Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:24:06 +1100 Marc Aramini \n wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "sorry roy, hadn't checked my email for a few days.\n\nYes, I was about to post something to that effect -\nWolfe is a reader of fiction, and while he researches\nhis novels, I think we would be surprised to note how\nmuch time he has spent exclusively writing rather than\namassing a huge collection of esoteric and obscure\nbooks that he peruses in his infinite time. \n\nI think he once told me he hadn't gotten far in War\nand Peace, nor read the entirety of Brothers\nKaramazov. However, to be fair, he has certainly read\nall of Dickens and Proust and Herodotus and\nChesterton, and the other obvious influences.\n\nBut you don't have to have read everything to be a\ngreat creator, eh?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some people seem to think it would have been a good thing if Wolfe \nhad intended to rewrite Graves, Nabokov, Dostoyevsky, Borges, \nJoyce, Dante, The Green Knight, Parsifal, The Magus etc etc etc. \n\nI've never really understood that. Apart from anything else, I get \nthe impression that Wolfe thinks he can do a lot better than most \nof these supposed models. \n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10801251904we0b2795td94221db6c82ca1b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-01-26T03:04:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Graves etc.", "in_reply_to": "<479A98B1.8010702@charter.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Forgive me if I step away from the dark ages. If anyone is still in\ncharge, please remove me from this list." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://listserver.dreamhost.com/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net\n\nInfo on unsubscribing at the bottom of the page.\n\nSo long then?\n\n-Matt" } ] } ] }