{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4982", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4982, "subject": "\"Wolfer\" and \"The Eleventh City\"", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2008-02-07T23:43:17+00:00", "last": "2008-02-11T19:53:24+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "JBarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2008-02-07T23:43:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Wolfer\" and \"The Eleventh City\"", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Urthlings --\n \nI'm in the midst of Innocents Aboard. I read \"Wolfer\" last night and \"The \nEleventh City\" this morning, and I have a few questions about each of them. I \ndidn't find either of them mentioned when I searched the Urth archives, so \nif I've missed a discussion of them, please point me to it!\n \nWOLFER\n \n(1) \"Wolfer\" starts with a discussion of the meaning of names, a subject \nthat evidently interests Wolfe very much, given his name and the similarity that \nit has with the name of the protagonist, Janet Woolf. That suggests to me \nthat all the names (or at least the last names) in the story are likely \nsignificant.\n \nOn the other hand, when I try to figure out the significance, I don't get \nvery far.\n \n\"Granstrom is my name,\" says the big man who gives Janet the wolves, and \nthat way of putting it seems to me to tie what he says to the way the story \nbegins. So what does his name mean? Well, a quick look at one webpage \n(_http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Granstrom-name-meaning.ashx_ \n(http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Granstrom-name-meaning.ashx) ) indicates that it's a Swedish \"ornamental \nname\" from gran (\"spruce\") and strom (\"river\").\n \nThe person to whom Janet is supposed to give the wolves is named Larry \nVentris. Ventris is Latin and means \"belly\" or \"womb\" (as in the line from the \n\"Ave Maria\": benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus: \"blessed is the fruit of \nyour womb, Jesus\").\n \nThe ranger toward the end of the story is named Jerry Baumgarten. According \nto this site ((_http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Baumgarten-name-meaning.ashx_ \n(http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Baumgarten-name-meaning.ashx) ), Baumgarten is \nGermanic and means \"orchard\" from baum (\"tree\") + garte (\"enclosure,\" hence \n\"garden\"). The name would have been given to someone who owned, lived by, or \nworked in an orchard. It was also the name of several villages, so someone \nfrom one of those villages could have had that name. It also appears as a \nJewish (Ashkenazic) ornamental name.\n \nOn top of that, I'll add the names of the two Scotties: Kyoto and Wasabe, \nwho both have Japanese names. The former is a place name; the latter an \nalternate spelling of wasabi, a kind of Japanese horseradish. Oh, and (perhaps in \nkeeping with the discussion of Barnes and Noble?) the gun is frequently \nidentified as a Smith & Wesson, but I don't know that there's any significance to \nthat (a smith is, of course, a blacksmith; \"Wesson\" is an alternate form of \n\"Weston,\" which indicates someone from the western town or settlement, so \nthere's no imaginary link as the lecturer proposes there is between B&N).\n \nThose are all the last names. But are they significant? The opening of the \nstory certainly sets us up to expect significant names. Margaret Bishop is \ntreated as if she has a significant name (\"Let us pray,\" she says once, and \ndoing work for her leads Janet to what she takes to be a vision of Christ \n[?]). But what about the rest of them? Or am I barking up the wrong tree here?\n \n(2) In some ways, the story seems straightforward (which in Wolfe is \nprobably a tip-off that it isn't really)\n \nAt a lecture about the meaning of names, a woman named Janet Woolf (who has \nbeen thinking a lot about the meaning of her name) flips out a bit and ends up \n meeting Margaret Bishop, who gets her involved in a plot to bring wolves \ninto a park in Michigan. The woman picks up the wolves, tries to deliver them \nbut can't, and so takes them to the park herself, where she's confronted by a \nranger who doesn't seem to mind. She drives off, has a vision which she \ntakes to be divine blessing on her work, and plans to do more of this sort of \nthing in Texas.\n \nAnd yet ... there are a few elements of the story that aren't so simple:\n \n* What's the significance of the opening discussion of the meaning of names?\n \n* What's the significance of Janet's own last name \"Woolf,\" and why is she \nso adamant that the lecturer isn't right about her name but that instead she's \na servant and friend of wolves? That makes sense in the rest of the story, \nbut why is Janet convinced of that already at the beginning?\n \n* What's the significance of Janet's divorce and return to her maiden name? \nAre there any hints of what her married name might have been? (I don't \nthink so.) Is the divorce and all the stuff related to it -- e.g., having to \nborrow the SUV from her ex-husband -- more or less irrelevant? If so, why are \nthey there at all? They make the story longer, but do they add anything to \nit? Why couldn't Janet herself have been single or married or (at any rate) an \nSUV owner herself? Why does she have to borrow it from her husband? What's \nthe significance of her being divorced?\n \n* What's the howling that Janet hears? Wolves, obviously, but what's it all \nabout?\n \n* Are we to take the various things that Kyoto and Wasabe and the wolves say \nas Janet's own projections? Or are we to believe that they really do \ncommunicate to her?\n \n* Is there any significance to \"Suicide Road\"?\n \n* Why does Jerry Baumgarten simply let her go?\n \n* What's the vision all about at the end?\n \n \n \nTHE ELEVENTH CITY\n \nAgain, this story appeared quite straightforward. It didn't entirely work \nfor me. I would have preferred, I think, to have it end with Cooper in some \ndanger or somehow actually involved with the events described. Instead, we \nget the story, as it were, at arm's length. I wonder why? Am I missing \nsomething? Are we supposed to feel a sense of foreboding as we come to the end? \nOr is it just Sam Cooper passing on an odd incident, as it appears on the \nsurface to be?\n \nA couple more questions: \n \n* What's the significance of the title? It clearly refers to the passage \nfrom the Gospel of Mark which Cooper quotes in his letter. The man who had the \nlegion of demons (which were cast into the swine) then proclaimed what Jesus \nhad done in \"Ten Cities\" (which is the region of Decapolis, across the Sea \nof Galilee from the region of Galilee). \n \nThose were \"ten cities,\" but the title refers to an \"eleventh.\" Which is \nit? The city where Cooper is? If so, what's the significance? I suppose \nCooper is \"publishing\" (the word for proclamation used in the version Cooper \nquotes) the news of another exorcism wrought by Jesus, by means of the blessed \nsacrament, in this letter to an eleventh city, Lincoln, Nebraska, and he's \nasking whether he ought to publish this account in his book.\n \nOf course, technically, it was the man who had the demons who then published \nabroad what Jesus had done. Here, it's Sam Cooper asking whether he ought \nto publish this account. \n \nAnything more? I ask because the title pushes us to wonder about \"the \neleventh city.\"\n \n* Why did Jacinta throw stones at Sam Cooper? I notice that later he says \n\"I was stoned by her,\" which calls to mind the stonings practiced in various \nstories in the Bible. (In fact, it makes me wonder, because Dell makes a \npoint of saying that Jacinta was a loose woman, but, even now, she isn't the one \nwho is stoned; rather she does the stoning ... of Sam Cooper.) What's going \non here?\n \n* What does the postscript really add to the story? I suspect it does add \nsomething, but I'm just missing it.\n \n \n \nNow it's your turn. Thanks in advance!\n \nJohn\n \n \n\n\n\n**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. \n(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025\n48)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c86bad$c14e2f60$43cb5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-02-10T06:25:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Wolfer\" and \"The Eleventh City\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John,\n\nI can't answer many of your questions, but I dislike seeing honest,\nthoughtful queries such as yours about two stories that have not been\ndiscussed here before be ignored. These two stories are obviously religious\nin theme and I hate to get into religious matters because little good ever\ncomes of it, but it can't be helped." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Barach wrote:\nWOLFER\n[. . .]\n* What's the significance of Janet's divorce and return to her maiden\nname?\nAre there any hints of what her married name might have been? (I don't\nthink so.) Is the divorce and all the stuff related to it -- e.g., having\nto\nborrow the SUV from her ex-husband -- more or less irrelevant? If so, why\nare\nthey there at all? They make the story longer, but do they add anything\nto\nit? Why couldn't Janet herself have been single or married or (at any\nrate) an\nSUV owner herself? Why does she have to borrow it from her husband?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What's" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the significance of her being divorced?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the scene with her ex-husband is there to show her timorousness at\nthe beginning of the story, which contrasts with her overaggressive and\nassertive nature by the end of it. She goes from little lap-dog to\nbitch-wolf." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "* What's the howling that Janet hears? Wolves, obviously, but what's it\nall\nabout?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_The Call of the Wild_?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "* Are we to take the various things that Kyoto and Wasabe and the wolves\nsay\nas Janet's own projections? Or are we to believe that they really do\ncommunicate to her?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I *think* they were her own projections. The animal talk is never in quotes\nuntil the last page of the story, after her vision. Why the dogs' speech\nshould become more \"real\" then, I don't know, unless they too have somehow\nbeen transformed by the vision and new-found dedication to walk on the wild\nside." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "* Is there any significance to \"Suicide Road\"?\n\n* Why does Jerry Baumgarten simply let her go?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He sympathizes with her cause." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "* What's the vision all about at the end?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The man in white is surely Jesus, as you suspected. I don't understand\nKipling's poem (\"The Only Son\", the opening and concluding lines of which\nbracket the story) any better than I do the story. If I did, I might be able\nto say more about the story. But I think it's safe to say that the poem and\nstory are related, however loosely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "THE ELEVENTH CITY\n* What's the significance of the title? It clearly refers to the passage\nfrom the Gospel of Mark which Cooper quotes in his letter. The man who\nhad the\nlegion of demons (which were cast into the swine) then proclaimed what\nJesus\nhad done in \"Ten Cities\" (which is the region of Decapolis, across the Sea\nof Galilee from the region of Galilee).\n\nThose were \"ten cities,\" but the title refers to an \"eleventh.\" Which is\nit? The city where Cooper is? If so, what's the significance?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know the significance, but I think the eleventh city is indeed the\ntown he was writing from, San Marcos del Lago, pointing back to the Gospel\nof Mark and the Sea of Galilee." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose\nCooper is \"publishing\" (the word for proclamation used in the version\nCooper\nquotes) the news of another exorcism wrought by Jesus, by means of the\nblessed\nsacrament, in this letter to an eleventh city, Lincoln, Nebraska, and he's\nasking whether he ought to publish this account in his book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not so sure Jesus should be credited with sending the demons from the\nghost-pig into a human woman, no matter how loose her virtue. The \"blessed\nsacrament\" was obtained fraudulently and used by a witch to undo what Jesus\nhad done. That can't be a good thing. \n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5729.65523.qm@web61124.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Helen Algmin", "address": "helenalgmin at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-02-11T19:53:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"The Eleventh City\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi. This is my first post. I am an avid reader of Wolfe short stories because I operate under the delusion that they are easier to figure out than the novels.Other than the stories, the Solider series is my all-time favorite Wolfe work.\n\nI can't comment on Wolfer yet, but I will re-read it. I'm afraid I can't shed too much light on The Eleventh City, either. I haven't responded earlier because I am just as befuddled as you.\n\n I take this story as more thought-provoking than puzzling. What an interesting concept that the demon Legion keeps asking to be moved from one body to the next in interests of survival. What an interesting idea that the demon pig traveled throughout the western world and then to S. America with the Spanish.\n \nSam Cooper is a recurring character in, I think, four stories. He's a folklore-ist. So maybe we can take it at face value that he is not involved directly with the story he's telling. \n\n* What's the significance of the title? \n I may be way off here. But my first instinct is to think it is supposed to indicate that the town is like an extension of the Ten Cities. Like a metaphor for the fact that the known world was once small, in biblical times, but now it encompasses the whole world. Or something.\n\n* Why did Jacinta throw stones at Sam Cooper?\nBecause she's crazy? Sorry, no answer for this one. \n \n* What does the postscript really add to the story? \nI personally think the P.S. is the most intriguing part! \"...no sane person could have done it and remained sane. I have photographed it.\" So does it drive Cooper crazy or is he jaded enough not to be phased by it?\n\n\n\nJBarach at aol.com wrote \n THE ELEVENTH CITY \n Again, this story appeared quite straightforward. It didn't entirely work for me. I would have preferred, I think, to have it end with Cooper in some danger or somehow actually involved with the events described. Instead, we get the story, as it were, at arm's length. I wonder why? Am I missing something? Are we supposed to feel a sense of foreboding as we come to the end? Or is it just Sam Cooper passing on an odd incident, as it appears on the surface to be?\n \n A couple more questions: \n \n * What's the significance of the title? It clearly refers to the passage from the Gospel of Mark which Cooper quotes in his letter. The man who had the legion of demons (which were cast into the swine) then proclaimed what Jesus had done in \"Ten Cities\" (which is the region of Decapolis, across the Sea of Galilee from the region of Galilee). \n \n Those were \"ten cities,\" but the title refers to an \"eleventh.\" Which is it? The city where Cooper is? If so, what's the significance? I suppose Cooper is \"publishing\" (the word for proclamation used in the version Cooper quotes) the news of another exorcism wrought by Jesus, by means of the blessed sacrament, in this letter to an eleventh city, Lincoln, Nebraska, and he's asking whether he ought to publish this account in his book.\n \n Of course, technically, it was the man who had the demons who then published abroad what Jesus had done. Here, it's Sam Cooper asking whether he ought to publish this account. \n \n Anything more? I ask because the title pushes us to wonder about \"the eleventh city.\"\n \n * Why did Jacinta throw stones at Sam Cooper? I notice that later he says \"I was stoned by her,\" which calls to mind the stonings practiced in various stories in the Bible. (In fact, it makes me wonder, because Dell makes a point of saying that Jacinta was a loose woman, but, even now, she isn't the one who is stoned; rather she does the stoning ... of Sam Cooper.) What's going on here?\n \n * What does the postscript really add to the story? I suspect it does add something, but I'm just missing it.\n\n " } ] } ] }