{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5002", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5002, "subject": "Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word \"Urth\"", "messages": 23, "voices": 15, "first": "2008-04-24T17:20:22+00:00", "last": "2008-05-02T00:25:10+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<73d3d6710804241020k7c71f1a0u6fd02ac36c946de4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Pavel Bakič", "address": "pavelbak at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-04-24T17:20:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A question for the first-language speakers out there: We have a discussion\ngoing on concerning a proper rendering of the word \"Urth\" into Czech, and\nwould appreciate any comments concerning the connotations the word has for a\nnative speaker, apart form the obvious \"Earth\". An existing translation of *The\nShadow of the Torturer* has \"Urzem?\", which translates literally as\n\"Ur-Earth\" (without the repetition of the \"r\" phoneme or the\n\"vowel-consonant[s]\" syllable structure, of course).\n\nI *did *search for previous threads concerning the topic, but the fact of\nthe archive-site being itself called Urth made it somewhat difficult." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080424174357.GA18712@localhost>", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-04-24T17:43:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word\t\"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "<73d3d6710804241020k7c71f1a0u6fd02ac36c946de4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 2008.04.24 19:20:22 +0200, Pavel Baki? scribbled 2.4K characters:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " A question for the first-language speakers out there: We have a discussion going on concerning\n a proper rendering of the word \"Urth\" into Czech, and would appreciate any comments concerning\n the connotations the word has for a native speaker, apart form the obvious \"Earth\". An\n existing translation of The Shadow of the Torturer has \"Urzem?\", which translates literally as\n \"Ur-Earth\" (without the repetition of the \"r\" phoneme or the \"vowel-consonant[s]\" syllable\n structure, of course).\n\n I did search for previous threads concerning the topic, but the fact of the archive-site being\n itself called Urth made it somewhat difficult." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The OED records no special features for 'Urth'; it's just an obscure variation on 'Earth', although it's worth noting that I've seen the name of the Norse norn Urd transliterated as Urth.\n\nSo, it depends on how you take it. If it's just Wolfe trying to distance you from the present day, go hunting for obscure and literary term for 'Earth' which sound similar to whatever is the usual Czech word; but if the Norse reference is intentional, I doubt you could do much better than Urth, 'Urth' just being a transliteration in this interpretation." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nBLACKER WISDIM secure the OTAR argus TRW MITM NAVELEXSYSSECENGCEN Keyhole" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4810C9FC.4090409@slu.edu>", "from": { "name": "Ron Crown", "address": "crownrw at slu.edu" }, "date": "2008-04-24T17:57:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "<73d3d6710804241020k7c71f1a0u6fd02ac36c946de4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pavel,\n\nIf Ur means in Czech what it does in German, viz., \"a long time ago,\" \n\"originally,\" then the connotation of \"Urzeme\" is directly the opposite \nof what Wolfe was trying to achieve with \"Urth\" by distancing from our \ncustomary term \"Earth\" to underscore the distance in time from us. \nTranslation is always tricky and I've long wondered how the unusual \nwords that Wolfe used in the Book of the New Sun would be translated. \nI've got both German and French editions of the Book but haven't managed \nto work all the way through them yet. The German edition does use \n\"Urth,\" however, while the French uses \"Teur\" which does something \nsimilar to \"Terre\" that \"Urth\" does to \"Earth.\"\n\nA lot of Wolfe's nuances would, I think, be virtually impossible to \nconvey in another language, for example, how do you convey the \nChrist/Apollo connotations of the New Sun/Son? German at least has a \ndegree of assonance (Sonne/Sohn) but French (fils, soleil)?\nRon Crown" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pavel Baki? wrote:\nA question for the first-language speakers out there: We have a \ndiscussion going on concerning a proper rendering of the word \"Urth\" \ninto Czech, and would appreciate any comments concerning the \nconnotations the word has for a native speaker, apart form the obvious \n\"Earth\". An existing translation of /The Shadow of the Torturer/ has \n\"Urzem?\", which translates literally as \"Ur-Earth\" (without the \nrepetition of the \"r\" phoneme or the \"vowel-consonant[s]\" syllable \nstructure, of course).\n\nI /did /search for previous threads concerning the topic, but the fact \nof the archive-site being itself called Urth made it somewhat difficult.\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080424175901.E34EA4800C@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2008-04-24T17:59:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "<73d3d6710804241020k7c71f1a0u6fd02ac36c946de4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 18:20 24/04/2008, you wrote:\nA question for the first-language speakers out \nthere: We have a discussion going on concerning \na proper rendering of the word \"Urth\" into \nCzech, and would appreciate any comments \nconcerning the connotations the word has for a \nnative speaker, apart form the obvious \"Earth\". \nAn existing translation of The Shadow of the \nTorturer has \"Urzem?\", which translates \nliterally as \"Ur-Earth\" (without the repetition \nof the \"r\" phoneme or the \"vowel-consonant[s]\" syllable structure, of course).\n\nI did search for previous threads concerning the \ntopic, but the fact of the archive-site being \nitself called Urth made it somewhat difficult." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The main extra connotation is that Urth is the \nname of one of the Norns -- Verthandi and Skuld being the others:\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norns\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki\nhttp://www.holkar.net/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-04-24T18:18:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "<20080424175901.E34EA4800C@diego.dreamhost.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 24, 2008, at 12:59 PM, Mo Holkar / UKG wrote:\nAt 18:20 24/04/2008, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A question for the first-language speakers out\nthere: We have a discussion going on concerning\na proper rendering of the word \"Urth\" into\nCzech, and would appreciate any comments\nconcerning the connotations the word has for a\nnative speaker, apart form the obvious \"Earth\".\nAn existing translation of The Shadow of the\nTorturer has \"Urzem?\", which translates\nliterally as \"Ur-Earth\" (without the repetition\nof the \"r\" phoneme or the \"vowel-consonant[s]\" syllable structure, \nof course).\n\nI did search for previous threads concerning the\ntopic, but the fact of the archive-site being\nitself called Urth made it somewhat difficult." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The main extra connotation is that Urth is the\nname of one of the Norns -- Verthandi and Skuld being the others:\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norns\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki\nhttp://www.holkar.net/pmwiki/" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So is it pronounced \"Urdh,\" with the voiced [th] sound? (Sorry, I \ndon't know how to reproduce IPA in plain text). The Norse is \npronounced that way, but I've always pronounced \"Urth\" just like \n\"Earth.\"\n\nAlso, the prefix ur- has an English meaning as well, meaning \"older\" \nor \"elder,\" similar to the German. That is, however, at odds with the \nNorn-interpretation (Urdh is the Norn of Fate) and the idea that \nSeverian's world is the future of our own. Though, perhaps to Severian \nat least, time need not necessarily flow in one direction.\n\nBest,\nLane" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370804241125k69e003eas44ef647dfd77ac38@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-04-24T18:25:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "<73d3d6710804241020k7c71f1a0u6fd02ac36c946de4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pavel,\n\nThere's a fair amount packed into the name. Urth or Urdr or Urd is the name\nof the eldest of the three Norns, the Norse equivalent of the Fates. The\nnames of the other two, Skuld and Verthandi, are given to Mars and Venus\nin the New Sun epoch.\n\nBut there's more: another variant on the name of Urd is Wurd, or Wyrd,\nwhich means, simply, fate or destiny. Urth is in some sense the destined\nworld.\n\nAnd, as long as we're poking at names, let's not forget Lune, whose\nname is of course a variation of Luna, Moon, but which also suggests\nto an English speaker a Loon, or Lunatic, a madman (or woman).\n\nThe Moon itself, because of its phases, has traditionally been taken to\nhold in itself all three phases of the Triple Goddess, of whom the\nFates/Norns are one variation/version, not to be confused with the Furies\nand the Graces, who are also incarnations of the Triple Goddess (indeed,\nthe nine Muses may be also, depending on whom you ask).\n\nThe Three are Maiden, Mother, and Crone, and one of the significances\nof \"Urth\" is that Mother Earth is no longer a Mother, she is now a Crone;\nshe is barren. Her function is to cut the thread that Skuld spins and\nVerthandi dyes.\n\nWhen Urth becomes Ushas, she becomes the Maiden once again.\n\n\n\n\n2008/4/24 Pavel Baki? :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A question for the first-language speakers out there: We have a discussion\ngoing on concerning a proper rendering of the word \"Urth\" into Czech, and\nwould appreciate any comments concerning the connotations the word has for a\nnative speaker, apart form the obvious \"Earth\". An existing translation of\nThe Shadow of the Torturer has \"Urzem?\", which translates literally as\n\"Ur-Earth\" (without the repetition of the \"r\" phoneme or the\n\"vowel-consonant[s]\" syllable structure, of course).\n\nI did search for previous threads concerning the topic, but the fact of the\narchive-site being itself called Urth made it somewhat difficult.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-04-24T20:05:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370804241125k69e003eas44ef647dfd77ac38@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know if it has anything to do with Wolfe's intent, but I can't\nlook at the word \"Urth\" without thinking of the ancient Mesopotamian\ncity of Ur.\n\nAlso, there just aren't many English words that start with \"ur\".\nIt's a weird-looking word, which is part of what makes it attractive\nand exotic.\n\n-- Rostrum\n\n2008/4/24 Dan'l Danehy-Oakes :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pavel,\n\n There's a fair amount packed into the name. Urth or Urdr or Urd is the name\n of the eldest of the three Norns, the Norse equivalent of the Fates. The\n names of the other two, Skuld and Verthandi, are given to Mars and Venus\n in the New Sun epoch.\n\n But there's more: another variant on the name of Urd is Wurd, or Wyrd,\n which means, simply, fate or destiny. Urth is in some sense the destined\n world.\n\n And, as long as we're poking at names, let's not forget Lune, whose\n name is of course a variation of Luna, Moon, but which also suggests\n to an English speaker a Loon, or Lunatic, a madman (or woman).\n\n The Moon itself, because of its phases, has traditionally been taken to\n hold in itself all three phases of the Triple Goddess, of whom the\n Fates/Norns are one variation/version, not to be confused with the Furies\n and the Graces, who are also incarnations of the Triple Goddess (indeed,\n the nine Muses may be also, depending on whom you ask).\n\n The Three are Maiden, Mother, and Crone, and one of the significances\n of \"Urth\" is that Mother Earth is no longer a Mother, she is now a Crone;\n she is barren. Her function is to cut the thread that Skuld spins and\n Verthandi dyes.\n\n When Urth becomes Ushas, she becomes the Maiden once again.\n\n\n\n\n 2008/4/24 Pavel Baki? :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A question for the first-language speakers out there: We have a discussion\n > going on concerning a proper rendering of the word \"Urth\" into Czech, and\n > would appreciate any comments concerning the connotations the word has for a\n > native speaker, apart form the obvious \"Earth\". An existing translation of\n > The Shadow of the Torturer has \"Urzem?\", which translates literally as\n > \"Ur-Earth\" (without the repetition of the \"r\" phoneme or the\n > \"vowel-consonant[s]\" syllable structure, of course)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " >\n > I did search for previous threads concerning the topic, but the fact of the\n > archive-site being itself called Urth made it somewhat difficult.\n >" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4810F1A9.7030106@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-04-24T20:46:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Michael Straight wrote:\nI don't know if it has anything to do with Wolfe's intent, but I can't\nlook at the word \"Urth\" without thinking of the ancient Mesopotamian\ncity of Ur.\n\nAlso, there just aren't many English words that start with \"ur\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Urania of Uranus urgently yet urbanely urinated uranium hexafluoride on \nthe urban landscape, abating the urticaria of Urkel, an Uruguayan ursine." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2008-04-24T21:32:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth)Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "<73d3d6710804241020k7c71f1a0u6fd02ac36c946de4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[ISO-8859-2] Pavel Baki? writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A question for the first-language speakers out there: We have a discussion\ngoing on concerning a proper rendering of the word \"Urth\" into Czech, and\nwould appreciate any comments concerning the connotations the word has for a\nnative speaker, apart form the obvious \"Earth\". An existing translation of *The\nShadow of the Torturer* has \"Urzem.\", which translates literally as\n\"Ur-Earth\" (without the repetition of the \"r\" phoneme or the\n\"vowel-consonant[s]\" syllable structure, of course). \n\nI *did *search for previous threads concerning the topic, but the fact of\nthe archive-site being itself called Urth made it somewhat difficult." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To add to what's been already stated: there's another pun in the \nUrth/Skuld/Verdandi triad of names. We learn from Vodalus in the wood that \nVerdandi (Mars) was called \"The Gift\" by the dawn-men who first went there. \nBut gift=present and Verdandi is the norn of the present, as Skuld of the \nfuture and Urd of the past. So the pun is on the double meaning of \n\"present\" in English. I wonder if this can be carried over to other \nlanguages? \n\n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4811214A.8080107@hyraxes.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2008-04-25T00:09:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "<73d3d6710804241020k7c71f1a0u6fd02ac36c946de4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pavel,\n\nWolfe's substitution of a \"U\" for \"EA\" in English works well because \nEnglish spelling and English pronunciation are so dissimilar. I don't \nknow if the opportunity exists in Czech; my limited knowledge of it \nindicates words are mostly pronounced just as they are spelled. The best \nopportunity would seem to be a pun of some sort on \"zem?\"; just adding \n\"ur\" to it seems too unsubtle.\n\nIs there a Czech word similar to \"zem?\" that has interesting resonances, \nthe way \"Urth\" suggests the Norns, Norse mythology in general, language \nevolution (a future English-speaker might spell \"Earth\" as \"Urth\" -- so \nthis is a joke about pulp SF's take on future language evolution), etc? \nHow would one expect Czech to evolve in a million years?\n\nIs there a set of old Slavic gods or goddesses associated with the \nEarth-Mars-Venus triad? Is there an allusive pun to be made like the \n\"present\"=\"gift\" pun Wolfe makes? (I know people once made much of the \nfact that in German \"gift\"=\"poison\", for example.)\n\nI think the addition of \"Ur\" (if Czech speakers would \"get it\") isn't \nbad at all, as it goes along with Wolfe's caginess about whether we are \nthe ancestors or the descendants of the people of Urth.\n\n-- Dave Lebling" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pavel Baki? wrote:\nA question for the first-language speakers out there: We have a \ndiscussion going on concerning a proper rendering of the word \"Urth\" \ninto Czech, and would appreciate any comments concerning the \nconnotations the word has for a native speaker, apart form the obvious \n\"Earth\". An existing translation of /The Shadow of the Torturer/ has \n\"Urzem?\", which translates literally as \"Ur-Earth\" (without the \nrepetition of the \"r\" phoneme or the \"vowel-consonant[s]\" syllable \nstructure, of course).\n\nI /did /search for previous threads concerning the topic, but the fact \nof the archive-site being itself called Urth made it somewhat difficult.\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<188866.20927.qm@web38504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Joe Riley", "address": "whamdoodler at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-04-25T07:12:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "<4811214A.8080107@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All of the above (and good luck).\n\nDave Lebling wrote: Pavel,\n\nWolfe's substitution of a \"U\" for \"EA\" in English works well because English spelling and English pronunciation are so dissimilar. I don't know if the opportunity exists in Czech; my limited knowledge of it indicates words are mostly pronounced just as they are spelled. The best opportunity would seem to be a pun of some sort on \"zem?\"; just adding \"ur\" to it seems too unsubtle.\n\nIs there a Czech word similar to \"zem?\" that has interesting resonances, the way \"Urth\" suggests the Norns, Norse mythology in general, language evolution (a future English-speaker might spell \"Earth\" as \"Urth\" -- so this is a joke about pulp SF's take on future language evolution), etc? How would one expect Czech to evolve in a million years?\n\nIs there a set of old Slavic gods or goddesses associated with the Earth-Mars-Venus triad? Is there an allusive pun to be made like the \"present\"=\"gift\" pun Wolfe makes? (I know people once made much of the fact that in German \"gift\"=\"poison\", for example.)\n\nI think the addition of \"Ur\" (if Czech speakers would \"get it\") isn't bad at all, as it goes along with Wolfe's caginess about whether we are the ancestors or the descendants of the people of Urth.\n\n-- Dave Lebling\n\nPavel Baki? wrote: A question for the first-language speakers out there: We have a discussion going on concerning a proper rendering of the word \"Urth\" into Czech, and would appreciate any comments concerning the connotations the word has for a native speaker, apart form the obvious \"Earth\". An existing translation of The Shadow of the Torturer has \"Urzem?\", which translates literally as \"Ur-Earth\" (without the repetition of the \"r\" phoneme or the \"vowel-consonant[s]\" syllable structure, of course).\n\nI did search for previous threads concerning the topic, but the fact of the archive-site being itself called Urth made it somewhat difficult.\n\n\n---------------------------------\n _______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-04-25T20:36:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "<4810F1A9.7030106@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nMichael Straight wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " > Also, there just aren't many English words that start with \"ur\".\n\n Urania of Uranus urgently yet urbanely urinated uranium hexafluoride on\n the urban landscape, abating the urticaria of Urkel, an Uruguayan ursine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To make it clear to our Czech friends, only seven of those words are\ncommonly used in English. (Eight if you count the borderline\n\"ursine\").\n\nAnd that's really about it. Urchin, urethra, and a few more words\nderived from either urine or urban. Glancing though the dictionary, I\ndon't see any other \"ur-\" words that I've even seen before.\n\n-- Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-04-25T22:54:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 25 Apr 2008, Michael Straight wrote:\nOn Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Michael Straight wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Also, there just aren't many English words that start with \"ur\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Urania of Uranus urgently yet urbanely urinated uranium hexafluoride on\n the urban landscape, abating the urticaria of Urkel, an Uruguayan ursine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To make it clear to our Czech friends, only seven of those words are\ncommonly used in English. (Eight if you count the borderline\n\"ursine\").\n\nAnd that's really about it. Urchin, urethra, and a few more words\nderived from either urine or urban. Glancing though the dictionary, I\ndon't see any other \"ur-\" words that I've even seen before.\n\n-- Rostrum" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ur-text ;)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "| David Duffy (MBBS PhD) ,-_|\\\n| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / *\n| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research \\_,-._/\n| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia GPG 4D0B994A v" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nigel Price", "address": "nigelaprice at talktalk.net" }, "date": "2008-04-28T15:12:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In addition to the other shades of meaning already mentioned, \"Ur\" carries\nthe sense of \"source\". Thus \"Ur-Hamlet\", for example, is a supposed lost\nsource play for Shakespeare's Hamlet.\n\nRemember that although Urth itself in the time of Severian is a bit of a\ngalactic backwater, humanity had in previous ages gone out to the stars to\nfound and lose stellar empires. Humanity, in many forms, must be living or\nhave lived on many worlds by Severian's time, but Urth is still humanity's\nhome planet, the \"source\" of the race and its point of origin.\n\nPerhaps, humanity will always refer to the soil it stands on as \"earth\", but\nthere remains only one Earth, and overtime this Earth has become thought of\nas the \"Ur-Earth\", \"Urth\".\n\nOr something like that...\n\nNigel" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-01T20:03:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "as it goes along with Wolfe's caginess about whether we are the ancestors or the descendants of the people of Urth.<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think Dave Lebling is closest to being on track. There are Wolfe interviews and texual clues that make it clear\nthat Urth is a twin to Earth, existing in the alternate universe of Briah (I think Earth might be in Yesod). Our conception of\nnormal time runs in each universe, starting with Big Bang and ending with Big Gnab. But Big Gnab leads to another Big\nBang so there is a more cosmic sense of time than what we can measure with watches. Briah is the predecessor\nto Yesod and thus Urth is older and more spiritually primitive than Earth. While Earth got its spiritual cleansing with the \nBiblical Flood and coming of Jesus, Urth had to wait millions of years longer for the Christ-figure Severian to arrive.The name Urth conveys this primitive, pre-Christian condition, even though in Severian's time, Urth science is far \nadvanced to our own.\n \n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-01T20:19:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it likely that Briah represents a more primal (spiritual) \nstage of existence, as you say. Both names (Briah and Yesod) are \ntaken from Kabbalah/Gnosticism. Briah is the second of the four \ncabalistic worlds, philosophically the one that relates to the \ninstantiated Platonic forms, the world of creation and immanence. \nYesod, however, is the penultimate stage of cabalistic spiritual \ndevelopment, only one step away from the godhead. It is also the means \nby which the manifestation of justice and mercy (Tiferet) seek to \nunite with the Kingdom of God. If I remember correctly, when I asked a \nclassics scholar friend of mine what \"madrigot\" meant he told me it \nwas \"level\" in Hebrew. So Severian traveling along the Madrigot \nrepresents him traveling through levels of spiritual development in \nexistence as well as through his own subjective experience of time. \nHe's the flowing back of spiritual completeness from beyond Yesod that \nbridges Briah with Malkhut.\n\nOr as best I can recall from my cheap-and-easy study of Gnosticism \nwhile studying Neoplatonism.\n\nBest,\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On May 1, 2008, at 3:03 PM, b sharp wrote:\nas it goes along with Wolfe's caginess about whether we are the \nancestors or the descendants of the people of Urth.<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Dave Lebling is closest to being on track. There are Wolfe \ninterviews and texual clues that make it clear\nthat Urth is a twin to Earth, existing in the alternate universe of \nBriah (I think Earth might be in Yesod). Our conception of\nnormal time runs in each universe, starting with Big Bang and ending \nwith Big Gnab. But Big Gnab leads to another Big\nBang so there is a more cosmic sense of time than what we can \nmeasure with watches. Briah is the predecessor\nto Yesod and thus Urth is older and more spiritually primitive than \nEarth. While Earth got its spiritual cleansing with the\nBiblical Flood and coming of Jesus, Urth had to wait millions of \nyears longer for the Christ-figure Severian to arrive.\nThe name Urth conveys this primitive, pre-Christian condition, even \nthough in Severian's time, Urth science is far\nadvanced to our own.\n\n-bsharp\n\nSpell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. \nGet in the game._______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4475.67.142.130.19.1209673928.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-05-01T20:32:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it likely that Briah represents a more primal (spiritual)\nstage of existence, as you say. Both names (Briah and Yesod) are\ntaken from Kabbalah/Gnosticism. Briah is the second of the four\ncabalistic worlds," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Second from the top.\n\nAtizluth, Briah, Yesod, Assiah." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " philosophically the one that relates to the\ninstantiated Platonic forms, the world of creation and immanence.\nYesod, however, is the penultimate stage of cabalistic spiritual\ndevelopment, only one step away from the godhead." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is not my understanding.\n\n It is also the means" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "by which the manifestation of justice and mercy (Tiferet) seek to\nunite with the Kingdom of God. If I remember correctly, when I asked a\nclassics scholar friend of mine what \"madrigot\" meant he told me it\nwas \"level\" in Hebrew. So Severian traveling along the Madrigot\nrepresents him traveling through levels of spiritual development in\nexistence as well as through his own subjective experience of time.\nHe's the flowing back of spiritual completeness from beyond Yesod that\nbridges Briah with Malkhut." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are conflating the sephiroth and the Four Worlds. Although the Worlds\nmap onto the sephiroth, they are different systems.\n\nBut there are different schools of thought.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-01T20:46:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "<4475.67.142.130.19.1209673928.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, that makes more sense. I'm actually going to go find my old class \nnotes and update them. :)\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On May 1, 2008, at 3:32 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI think it likely that Briah represents a more primal (spiritual)\nstage of existence, as you say. Both names (Briah and Yesod) are\ntaken from Kabbalah/Gnosticism. Briah is the second of the four\ncabalistic worlds," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Second from the top.\n\nAtizluth, Briah, Yesod, Assiah." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " philosophically the one that relates to the\ninstantiated Platonic forms, the world of creation and immanence.\nYesod, however, is the penultimate stage of cabalistic spiritual\ndevelopment, only one step away from the godhead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is not my understanding.\n\nIt is also the means\nby which the manifestation of justice and mercy (Tiferet) seek to\nunite with the Kingdom of God. If I remember correctly, when I \nasked a\nclassics scholar friend of mine what \"madrigot\" meant he told me it\nwas \"level\" in Hebrew. So Severian traveling along the Madrigot\nrepresents him traveling through levels of spiritual development in\nexistence as well as through his own subjective experience of time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He's the flowing back of spiritual completeness from beyond Yesod \nthat\nbridges Briah with Malkhut." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You are conflating the sephiroth and the Four Worlds. Although the \nWorlds\nmap onto the sephiroth, they are different systems.\n\nBut there are different schools of thought.\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<481A3BEB.3070401@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-05-01T21:53:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Urth\" history (was onomatopoeia)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nWhile Earth got its spiritual cleansing with the\nBiblical Flood and coming of Jesus, Urth had to wait millions of years \nlonger for the Christ-figure Severian to arrive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is a problem in that Urth's history seems to include a Christian \nera as well.\n\nThe millions of years figure is more figurative than literally \nbelieveable; how likely are recognizeable buildings to remain in the \nStone Town without maintenance for a million years, or the stars in the \nSouthern Cross to remain vaguely close togetgher" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7295.67.142.130.29.1209682959.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-05-01T23:02:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "<4475.67.142.130.19.1209673928.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry folks, I made a huge mistake here. I must have been half asleep or\nsomething." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it likely that Briah represents a more primal (spiritual)\nstage of existence, as you say. Both names (Briah and Yesod) are\ntaken from Kabbalah/Gnosticism. Briah is the second of the four\ncabalistic worlds," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Second from the top." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Atizluth, Briah, Yesod, Assiah." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually the third world is Yetzirah. Yesod is the ninth sephirah." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " philosophically the one that relates to the\ninstantiated Platonic forms, the world of creation and immanence.\nYesod, however, is the penultimate stage of cabalistic spiritual\ndevelopment, only one step away from the godhead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is not my understanding." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yesod is in fact the ninth sephirah, associated with the Moon, which is\njust 'above' Malkuth, the tenth sephirah, associated with the world we\nlive in." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " It is also the means\nby which the manifestation of justice and mercy (Tiferet) seek to\nunite with the Kingdom of God. If I remember correctly, when I asked a\nclassics scholar friend of mine what \"madrigot\" meant he told me it\nwas \"level\" in Hebrew. So Severian traveling along the Madrigot\nrepresents him traveling through levels of spiritual development in\nexistence as well as through his own subjective experience of time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He's the flowing back of spiritual completeness from beyond Yesod that\nbridges Briah with Malkhut." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You are conflating the sephiroth and the Four Worlds. Although the Worlds\nmap onto the sephiroth, they are different systems." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am not sure if you, Lane, were, but I definitely was." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But there are different schools of thought." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And of non-thought.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<10634.67.142.130.29.1209683044.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-05-01T23:04:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hope it makes sense still after I corrected it!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, that makes more sense. I'm actually going to go find my old class\nnotes and update them. :)\n\nLane\n\nOn May 1, 2008, at 3:32 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think it likely that Briah represents a more primal (spiritual)\nstage of existence, as you say. Both names (Briah and Yesod) are\ntaken from Kabbalah/Gnosticism. Briah is the second of the four\ncabalistic worlds," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Second from the top.\n\nAtizluth, Briah, Yesod, Assiah." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " philosophically the one that relates to the\ninstantiated Platonic forms, the world of creation and immanence.\nYesod, however, is the penultimate stage of cabalistic spiritual\ndevelopment, only one step away from the godhead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is not my understanding.\n\nIt is also the means\nby which the manifestation of justice and mercy (Tiferet) seek to\nunite with the Kingdom of God. If I remember correctly, when I\nasked a\nclassics scholar friend of mine what \"madrigot\" meant he told me it\nwas \"level\" in Hebrew. So Severian traveling along the Madrigot\nrepresents him traveling through levels of spiritual development in\nexistence as well as through his own subjective experience of time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He's the flowing back of spiritual completeness from beyond Yesod\nthat\nbridges Briah with Malkhut." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You are conflating the sephiroth and the Four Worlds. Although the\nWorlds\nmap onto the sephiroth, they are different systems.\n\nBut there are different schools of thought.\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-01T23:22:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "<10634.67.142.130.29.1209683044.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't catch the Yesod/Yetzirah typo. I say \"Y\" and read right past \nit.\n\nIt was my understanding that Malkhut was not the world in which we \nlive because it represents the state of spiritual fulfilment that the \nmaterial world lacks. But that may be true for only the schools of \nthought we were studying (Manicheanism, Mandaeanism, Neo-Platonism) \nand not with others. Or I could just be totally confused. That's been \nknown to happen.\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 1, 2008, at 6:04 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI hope it makes sense still after I corrected it!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ah, that makes more sense. I'm actually going to go find my old class\nnotes and update them. :)\n\nLane\n\nOn May 1, 2008, at 3:32 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I think it likely that Briah represents a more primal (spiritual)\nstage of existence, as you say. Both names (Briah and Yesod) are\ntaken from Kabbalah/Gnosticism. Briah is the second of the four\ncabalistic worlds," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Second from the top.\n\nAtizluth, Briah, Yesod, Assiah." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " philosophically the one that relates to the\ninstantiated Platonic forms, the world of creation and immanence.\nYesod, however, is the penultimate stage of cabalistic spiritual\ndevelopment, only one step away from the godhead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This is not my understanding.\n\nIt is also the means\nby which the manifestation of justice and mercy (Tiferet) seek to\nunite with the Kingdom of God. If I remember correctly, when I\nasked a\nclassics scholar friend of mine what \"madrigot\" meant he told me it\nwas \"level\" in Hebrew. So Severian traveling along the Madrigot\nrepresents him traveling through levels of spiritual development in\nexistence as well as through his own subjective experience of time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "He's the flowing back of spiritual completeness from beyond Yesod\nthat\nbridges Briah with Malkhut." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You are conflating the sephiroth and the Four Worlds. Although the\nWorlds\nmap onto the sephiroth, they are different systems.\n\nBut there are different schools of thought.\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6910.67.142.130.36.1209687910.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-05-02T00:25:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are certainly some differences among the various schools. And\nconfusion does occur, as I know.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I didn't catch the Yesod/Yetzirah typo. I say \"Y\" and read right past\nit.\n\nIt was my understanding that Malkhut was not the world in which we\nlive because it represents the state of spiritual fulfilment that the\nmaterial world lacks. But that may be true for only the schools of\nthought we were studying (Manicheanism, Mandaeanism, Neo-Platonism)\nand not with others. Or I could just be totally confused. That's been\nknown to happen.\n\nLane\n\nOn May 1, 2008, at 6:04 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I hope it makes sense still after I corrected it!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ah, that makes more sense. I'm actually going to go find my old class\nnotes and update them. :)\n\nLane\n\nOn May 1, 2008, at 3:32 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I think it likely that Briah represents a more primal (spiritual)\nstage of existence, as you say. Both names (Briah and Yesod) are\ntaken from Kabbalah/Gnosticism. Briah is the second of the four\ncabalistic worlds," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Second from the top.\n\nAtizluth, Briah, Yesod, Assiah." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": " philosophically the one that relates to the\ninstantiated Platonic forms, the world of creation and immanence.\nYesod, however, is the penultimate stage of cabalistic spiritual\ndevelopment, only one step away from the godhead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "This is not my understanding.\n\nIt is also the means\nby which the manifestation of justice and mercy (Tiferet) seek to\nunite with the Kingdom of God. If I remember correctly, when I\nasked a\nclassics scholar friend of mine what \"madrigot\" meant he told me it\nwas \"level\" in Hebrew. So Severian traveling along the Madrigot\nrepresents him traveling through levels of spiritual development in\nexistence as well as through his own subjective experience of time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "He's the flowing back of spiritual completeness from beyond Yesod\nthat\nbridges Briah with Malkhut." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "You are conflating the sephiroth and the Four Worlds. Although the\nWorlds\nmap onto the sephiroth, they are different systems.\n\nBut there are different schools of thought.\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }