Subject: (urth) Etymology/meaning/onomatopoeic aspects of the word "Urth"

From: Pavel Bakič <pavelbak at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:20:22 +0000

A question for the first-language speakers out there: We have a discussion
going on concerning a proper rendering of the word "Urth" into Czech, and
would appreciate any comments concerning the connotations the word has for a
native speaker, apart form the obvious "Earth". An existing translation of *The
Shadow of the Torturer* has "Urzem?", which translates literally as
"Ur-Earth" (without the repetition of the "r" phoneme or the
"vowel-consonant[s]" syllable structure, of course).

I *did *search for previous threads concerning the topic, but the fact of
the archive-site being itself called Urth made it somewhat difficult.
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From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:43:57 +0000

On 2008.04.24 19:20:22 +0200, Pavel Baki? <pavelbak at gmail.com> scribbled 2.4K characters:
>    A question for the first-language speakers out there: We have a discussion going on concerning
>    a proper rendering of the word "Urth" into Czech, and would appreciate any comments concerning
>    the connotations the word has for a native speaker, apart form the obvious "Earth". An
>    existing translation of The Shadow of the Torturer has "Urzem?", which translates literally as
>    "Ur-Earth" (without the repetition of the "r" phoneme or the "vowel-consonant[s]" syllable
>    structure, of course).
>
>    I did search for previous threads concerning the topic, but the fact of the archive-site being
>    itself called Urth made it somewhat difficult.

The OED records no special features for 'Urth'; it's just an obscure variation on 'Earth', although it's worth noting that I've seen the name of the Norse norn Urd transliterated as Urth.

So, it depends on how you take it. If it's just Wolfe trying to distance you from the present day, go hunting for obscure and literary term for 'Earth' which sound similar to whatever is the usual Czech word; but if the Norse reference is intentional, I doubt you could do much better than Urth, 'Urth' just being a transliteration in this interpretation.

--
gwern
BLACKER WISDIM secure the OTAR argus TRW MITM NAVELEXSYSSECENGCEN Keyhole
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From: Ron Crown <crownrw at slu.edu>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:57:16 +0000

Pavel,

If Ur means in Czech what it does in German, viz., "a long time ago," 
"originally," then the connotation of "Urzeme" is directly the opposite 
of what Wolfe was trying to achieve with "Urth" by distancing from our 
customary term "Earth" to underscore the distance in time from us.  
Translation is always tricky and I've long wondered how the unusual 
words that Wolfe used in the Book of the New Sun would be translated.  
I've got both German and French editions of the Book but haven't managed 
to work all the way through them yet.  The German edition does use 
"Urth," however, while the French uses "Teur" which does something 
similar to "Terre" that "Urth" does to "Earth."

A  lot of Wolfe's nuances would, I think, be virtually impossible to 
convey in another language, for example, how do you convey the 
Christ/Apollo connotations of the New Sun/Son?  German at least has a 
degree of assonance (Sonne/Sohn) but French (fils, soleil)?
Ron Crown

Pavel Baki? wrote:
> A question for the first-language speakers out there: We have a 
> discussion going on concerning a proper rendering of the word "Urth" 
> into Czech, and would appreciate any comments concerning the 
> connotations the word has for a native speaker, apart form the obvious 
> "Earth". An existing translation of /The Shadow of the Torturer/ has 
> "Urzem?", which translates literally as "Ur-Earth" (without the 
> repetition of the "r" phoneme or the "vowel-consonant[s]" syllable 
> structure, of course).
>
> I /did /search for previous threads concerning the topic, but the fact 
> of the archive-site being itself called Urth made it somewhat difficult.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net

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From: Mo Holkar / UKG <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:59:12 +0000

At 18:20 24/04/2008, you wrote:
>A question for the first-language speakers out 
>there: We have a discussion going on concerning 
>a proper rendering of the word "Urth" into 
>Czech, and would appreciate any comments 
>concerning the connotations the word has for a 
>native speaker, apart form the obvious "Earth". 
>An existing translation of The Shadow of the 
>Torturer has "Urzem?", which translates 
>literally as "Ur-Earth" (without the repetition 
>of the "r" phoneme or the "vowel-consonant[s]" syllable structure, of course).
>
>I did search for previous threads concerning the 
>topic, but the fact of the archive-site being 

The main extra connotation is that Urth is the 
name of one of the Norns -- Verthandi and Skuld being the others:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norns

Mo

# ~ # ~ #

WolfeWiki
http://www.holkar.net/pmwiki/

---

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:18:25 +0000

> http://www.holkar.net/pmwiki/

So is it pronounced "Urdh," with the voiced [th] sound? (Sorry, I  
don't know how to reproduce IPA in plain text). The Norse is  
pronounced that way, but I've always pronounced "Urth" just like  
"Earth."

Also, the prefix ur- has an English meaning as well, meaning "older"  
or "elder," similar to the German. That is, however, at odds with the  
Norn-interpretation (Urdh is the Norn of Fate) and the idea that  
Severian's world is the future of our own. Though, perhaps to Severian  
at least, time need not necessarily flow in one direction.

Best,
Lane

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:25:26 +0000

Pavel,

There's a fair amount packed into the name. Urth or Urdr or Urd is the name
of the eldest of the three Norns, the Norse equivalent of the Fates. The
names of the other two, Skuld and Verthandi, are given to Mars and Venus
in the New Sun epoch.

But there's more: another variant on the name of Urd is Wurd, or Wyrd,
which means, simply, fate or destiny. Urth is in some sense the destined
world.

And, as long as we're poking at names, let's not forget Lune, whose
name is of course a variation of Luna, Moon, but which also suggests
to an English speaker a Loon, or Lunatic, a madman (or woman).

The Moon itself, because of its phases, has traditionally been taken to
hold in itself all three phases of the Triple Goddess, of whom the
Fates/Norns are one variation/version, not to be confused with the Furies
and the Graces, who are also incarnations of the Triple Goddess (indeed,
the nine Muses may be also, depending on whom you ask).

The Three are Maiden, Mother, and Crone, and one of the significances
of "Urth" is that Mother Earth is no longer a Mother, she is now a Crone;
she is barren. Her function is to cut the thread that Skuld spins and
Verthandi dyes.

When Urth becomes Ushas, she becomes the Maiden once again.

2008/4/24 Pavel Baki? <pavelbak at gmail.com>:
> native speaker, apart form the obvious "Earth". An existing translation of
> The Shadow of the Torturer has "Urzem?", which translates literally as
> I did search for previous threads concerning the topic, but the fact of the
> archive-site being itself called Urth made it somewhat difficult.
>

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant
-----
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer
http://www.danehyoakes.com

I once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a
restaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand
Island Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett

---

From: Michael Straight <mfstraight at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:05:02 +0000

I don't know if it has anything to do with Wolfe's intent, but I can't
look at the word "Urth" without thinking of the ancient Mesopotamian
city of Ur.

Also, there just aren't many English words that start with "ur".
It's a weird-looking word, which is part of what makes it attractive
and exotic.

-- Rostrum

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:46:33 +0000

> Also, there just aren't many English words that start with "ur".

Urania of Uranus urgently yet urbanely urinated uranium hexafluoride on 
the urban landscape, abating the urticaria of Urkel, an Uruguayan ursine.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

---

From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:32:49 +0000

[ISO-8859-2] Pavel Baki? writes: 

> Shadow of the Torturer* has "Urzem.", which translates literally as

To add to what's been already stated: there's another pun in the 
Urth/Skuld/Verdandi triad of names.  We learn from Vodalus in the wood that 
Verdandi (Mars) was called "The Gift" by the dawn-men who first went there.  
But gift=present and Verdandi is the norn of the present, as Skuld of the 
future and Urd of the past.  So the pun is on the double meaning of 
"present" in English.  I wonder if this can be carried over to other 
languages? 

http://www.thenightland.co.uk 

01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545

---

From: Dave Lebling <dlebling at hyraxes.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:09:46 +0000

Pavel,

Wolfe's substitution of a "U" for "EA" in English works well because 
English spelling and English pronunciation are so dissimilar. I don't 
know if the opportunity exists in Czech; my limited knowledge of it 
indicates words are mostly pronounced just as they are spelled. The best 
opportunity would seem to be a pun of some sort on "zem?"; just adding 
"ur" to it seems too unsubtle.

Is there a Czech word similar to "zem?" that has interesting resonances, 
the way "Urth" suggests the Norns, Norse mythology in general, language 
evolution (a future English-speaker might spell "Earth" as "Urth" -- so 
this is a joke about pulp SF's take on future language evolution), etc? 
How would one expect Czech to evolve in a million years?

Is there a set of old Slavic gods or goddesses associated with the  
Earth-Mars-Venus triad? Is there an allusive pun to be made like the 
"present"="gift" pun Wolfe makes? (I know people once made much of the 
fact that in German "gift"="poison", for example.)

I think the addition of "Ur" (if Czech speakers would "get it") isn't 
bad at all, as it goes along with Wolfe's caginess about whether we are 
the ancestors or the descendants of the people of Urth.

-- Dave Lebling

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From: Joe Riley <whamdoodler at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 07:12:45 +0000

All of the above (and good luck).

Dave Lebling <dlebling at hyraxes.com> wrote:  Pavel,

Wolfe's substitution of a "U" for "EA" in English works well because English spelling and English pronunciation are so dissimilar. I don't know if the opportunity exists in Czech; my limited knowledge of it indicates words are mostly pronounced just as they are spelled. The best opportunity would seem to be a pun of some sort on "zem?"; just adding "ur" to it seems too unsubtle.

Is there a Czech word similar to "zem?" that has interesting resonances, the way "Urth" suggests the Norns, Norse mythology in general, language evolution (a future English-speaker might spell "Earth" as "Urth" -- so this is a joke about pulp SF's take on future language evolution), etc? How would one expect Czech to evolve in a million years?

Is there a set of old Slavic gods or goddesses associated with the  Earth-Mars-Venus triad? Is there an allusive pun to be made like the "present"="gift" pun Wolfe makes? (I know people once made much of the fact that in German "gift"="poison", for example.)

I think the addition of "Ur" (if Czech speakers would "get it") isn't bad at all, as it goes along with Wolfe's caginess about whether we are the ancestors or the descendants of the people of Urth.

-- Dave Lebling

Pavel Baki? wrote:   A question for the first-language speakers out there: We have a discussion going on concerning a proper rendering of the word "Urth" into Czech, and would appreciate any comments concerning the connotations the word has for a native speaker, apart form the obvious "Earth". An existing translation of The Shadow of the Torturer has "Urzem?", which translates literally as "Ur-Earth" (without the repetition of the "r" phoneme or the "vowel-consonant[s]" syllable structure, of course).

I did search for previous threads concerning the topic, but the fact of the archive-site being itself called Urth made it somewhat difficult.

---------------------------------
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From: Michael Straight <mfstraight at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 20:36:23 +0000

>  the urban landscape, abating the urticaria of Urkel, an Uruguayan ursine.

To make it clear to our Czech friends, only seven of those words are
commonly used in English.  (Eight if you count the borderline
"ursine").

And that's really about it.  Urchin, urethra, and a few more words
derived from either urine or urban.  Glancing though the dictionary, I
don't see any other "ur-" words that I've even seen before.

-- Rostrum

---

From: David Duffy <david.duffy at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 22:54:24 +0000

> don't see any other "ur-" words that I've even seen before.

ur-text ;)

-- 
| David Duffy (MBBS PhD)                                         ,-_|\
| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au  ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101  /     *
| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research   \_,-._/
| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia  GPG 4D0B994A v

---

From: Nigel Price <nigelaprice at talktalk.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 15:12:52 +0000

In addition to the other shades of meaning already mentioned, "Ur" carries
the sense of "source". Thus "Ur-Hamlet", for example, is a supposed lost
source play for Shakespeare's Hamlet.

Remember that although Urth itself in the time of Severian is a bit of a
galactic backwater, humanity had in previous ages gone out to the stars to
found and lose stellar empires. Humanity, in many forms, must be living or
have lived on many worlds by Severian's time, but Urth is still humanity's
home planet, the "source" of the race and its point of origin.

Perhaps, humanity will always refer to the soil it stands on as "earth", but
there remains only one Earth, and overtime this Earth has become thought of
as the "Ur-Earth", "Urth".

Or something like that...

Nigel

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 20:03:39 +0000

>as it goes along with Wolfe's caginess about whether we are the ancestors or the descendants of the people of Urth.<
 
I think Dave Lebling is closest to being on track.  There are Wolfe interviews and texual clues that make it clear
that Urth is a twin to Earth, existing in the alternate universe of Briah (I think Earth might be in Yesod). Our conception of
normal time runs in each universe, starting with Big Bang and ending with Big Gnab. But Big Gnab leads to another Big
Bang so there is a more cosmic sense of time than what we can measure with watches. Briah is the predecessor
to Yesod and thus Urth is older and more spiritually primitive than Earth. While Earth got its spiritual cleansing with the 
Biblical Flood and coming of Jesus, Urth had to wait millions of years longer for the Christ-figure Severian to arrive.The name Urth conveys this primitive, pre-Christian condition, even though in Severian's time, Urth science is far 
advanced to our own.
 
-bsharp
_________________________________________________________________
Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in the game.
http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08
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From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 20:19:18 +0000

I think it likely that Briah represents a more primal (spiritual)  
stage of existence, as you say.  Both names (Briah and Yesod) are  
taken from Kabbalah/Gnosticism. Briah is the second of the four  
cabalistic worlds, philosophically the one that relates to the  
instantiated Platonic forms, the world of creation and immanence.   
Yesod, however, is the penultimate stage of cabalistic spiritual  
development, only one step away from the godhead. It is also the means  
by which the manifestation of justice and mercy (Tiferet) seek to  
unite with the Kingdom of God. If I remember correctly, when I asked a  
classics scholar friend of mine what "madrigot" meant he told me it  
was "level" in Hebrew. So Severian traveling along the Madrigot  
represents him traveling through levels of spiritual development in  
existence as well as through his own subjective experience of time.   
He's the flowing back of spiritual completeness from beyond Yesod that  
bridges Briah with Malkhut.

Or as best I can recall from my cheap-and-easy study of Gnosticism  
while studying Neoplatonism.

Best,
Lane

On May 1, 2008, at 3:03 PM, b sharp wrote:
> >as it goes along with Wolfe's caginess about whether we are the  
> ancestors or the descendants of the people of Urth.<
>
> I think Dave Lebling is closest to being on track.  There are Wolfe  
> interviews and texual clues that make it clear
> that Urth is a twin to Earth, existing in the alternate universe of  
> Briah (I think Earth might be in Yesod). Our conception of
> normal time runs in each universe, starting with Big Bang and ending  
> with Big Gnab. But Big Gnab leads to another Big
> Bang so there is a more cosmic sense of time than what we can  
> measure with watches. Briah is the predecessor
> to Yesod and thus Urth is older and more spiritually primitive than  
> Earth. While Earth got its spiritual cleansing with the
> Biblical Flood and coming of Jesus, Urth had to wait millions of  
> years longer for the Christ-figure Severian to arrive.
> The name Urth conveys this primitive, pre-Christian condition, even  
> though in Severian's time, Urth science is far
> advanced to our own.
>
> -bsharp
>
> Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series.  
> Get in the game._______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List

Best,
Lane

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 20:32:08 +0000

> cabalistic worlds,

Second from the top.

Atizluth, Briah, Yesod, Assiah.

>                       philosophically the one that relates to the
> development, only one step away from the godhead.

This is not my understanding.

 It is also the means
> bridges Briah with Malkhut.

You are conflating the sephiroth and the Four Worlds. Although the Worlds
map onto the sephiroth, they are different systems.

But there are different schools of thought.

.

---

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 20:46:14 +0000

Ah, that makes more sense. I'm actually going to go find my old class  
notes and update them. :)

Lane

Best,
Lane

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 21:53:47 +0000

b sharp wrote:
> While Earth got its spiritual cleansing with the
> Biblical Flood and coming of Jesus, Urth had to wait millions of years 
> longer for the Christ-figure Severian to arrive.

There is a problem in that Urth's history seems to include a Christian 
era as well.

The millions of years figure is more figurative than literally 
believeable; how likely are recognizeable buildings to remain in the 
Stone Town without maintenance for a million years, or the stars in the 
Southern Cross to remain vaguely close togetgher

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 23:02:39 +0000

Sorry folks, I made a huge mistake here. I must have been half asleep or
something.

> Atizluth, Briah, Yesod, Assiah.

Actually the third world is Yetzirah. Yesod is the ninth sephirah.

> This is not my understanding.

Yesod is in fact the ninth sephirah, associated with the Moon, which is
just 'above' Malkuth, the tenth sephirah, associated with the world we
live in.

> map onto the sephiroth, they are different systems.

I am not sure if you, Lane, were, but I definitely was.

> But there are different schools of thought.

And of non-thought.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 23:04:04 +0000

I hope it makes sense still after I corrected it!

.

---

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 23:22:18 +0000

I didn't catch the Yesod/Yetzirah typo. I say "Y" and read right past  
it.

It was my understanding that Malkhut was not the world in which we  
live because it represents the state of spiritual fulfilment that the  
material world lacks. But that may be true for only the schools of  
thought we were studying (Manicheanism, Mandaeanism, Neo-Platonism)  
and not with others. Or I could just be totally confused. That's been  
known to happen.

Lane

On May 1, 2008, at 6:04 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
> _________________

Best,
Lane

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 00:25:10 +0000

There are certainly some differences among the various schools. And
confusion does occur, as I know.

.