{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5020", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5020, "subject": "Other SF writers? (Was: How list works and questions to\n\tmailers)", "messages": 45, "voices": 20, "first": "2008-05-12T19:35:18+00:00", "last": "2008-06-16T20:08:46+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<44fb53d10805121235w6f72046et8e146b97a78abbab@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-12T19:35:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works and questions to\n\tmailers)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 8:09 PM, Andy Robertson \nwrote:\nTim Walters writes:\n\n\n I also recommend Paul Park, Kelly Link, and Robert Aickman, who share\nmany\nof Wolfe's best qualities, and John Crowley, who isn't much like Wolfe\nbut\nis equally good." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And the sainted R A Lafferty\nhartshorn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All the Lafferty discussion on this list has put the man on my reading list.\nWhere should I start?\n\nRe: Link - Saw her at a really small bookstore signing once. I would have\nbought one of her books, but the only one they had on sale was Magic for\nBeginners, which I already owned. I didn't quite work up the courage to talk\nto her, but she seemed really cool and approachable. After the signing,\nauthors and attendees were all invited to the bar next door for a free\ndrink, but I opted out, not being 21. Curse those US drinking laws. And\nthat's my mostly irrelevant anecdote. In any case, I think Link's quite\ngood, though I don't see her becoming one of my absolute favorite writers.\n\nShe's actually released her entire first collection for free online.\nProbably a good introduction to her work?\nhttp://www.lcrw.net/kellylink/sth/\n\nPerhaps we Wolfe fans should put together a list of other worthwhile science\nfiction / fantasy writers? I know a few of the people on the thread have a\nlist already.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370805121311g5854a1c6ifae511c94b636e8f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-12T20:11:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works and questions to\n\tmailers)", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10805121235w6f72046et8e146b97a78abbab@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Matthew Keeley\n wrote:\nPerhaps we Wolfe fans should put together a list of other worthwhile science\nfiction / fantasy writers? I know a few of the people on the thread have a\nlist already." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Equally good, but about as far from Wolfe as you can get artistically\nor philosophically,\nis Samuel R. Delany. Some of his work, incidentally, is not for\nthe easily\noffended! Good starting places include _Babel 17_, _Empire Star_, and his short\nstory collection _Aye and Gomorrah_\n\nAnyone who likes Wolfe should give TIm Powers a try: his work is nowhere near\nas *dense* as Wolfe's, and certainly less mysterious, but has a\ncertain similarity\nin what he uses SF/F to do. A good stand-alone starting point is the\npirate novel\n(h'mmm...) _On Stranger Tides_; his finest work to date is in the\ntrilogy consisting\nof _Last Call_, _Expiration Date_ and _Earthquake Weather_.\n\nAny list like this must include Ursula K. Le Guin, who is another far-from-Wolfe\nbut awfully good. Start anywhere but her first three books.\n\nI would recommend, with slight hesitation, James Blish, and especially his\nfour-volume trilogy (and that's not a paradox) \"After Such Knowledge.\" The\nfirst book (_Doctor Mirabilis_) is a historical novel retelling the\nlife of friar\nRoger Bacon; the second, in two volumes (_Black Easter_ and _The Day\nAfter Judgment_) a contemporary fantasy/horror novel, and the third (_A\nCase of Conscience_) a SF novel. Together they are an inquiry into the\nquestion whether the quest for secular knowledge for its own sake is a\nvalid goal, or indeed permissible at all, from a Christian (sc. Catholic) point\nof view.\n\nAs an alternate take on some of the themes in _Case of Conscience_, one\nshould also read _The Sparrow_ by Mary Doria Russell, an astonishing\nbook in its own right and one that may appeal to Wolfe fans specifically\nfor a number of reasons.\n\nOkay, I'll shut up now and let someone else go." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080512201953.GA5256@localhost>", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-12T20:19:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works and questions\n\tto\tmailers)", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10805121235w6f72046et8e146b97a78abbab@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 2008.05.12 20:35:18 +0100, Matthew Keeley scribbled 3.8K characters:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 8:09 PM, Andy Robertson wrote:\n\n Tim Walters writes:\n\n I also recommend Paul Park, Kelly Link, and Robert Aickman, who share many\n of Wolfe's best qualities, and John Crowley, who isn't much like Wolfe but\n is equally good.\n\n And the sainted R A Lafferty\n hartshorn\n\n All the Lafferty discussion on this list has put the man on my reading list. Where should I\n start?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Start with _Fourth Mansions_, if you don't want to pick up one of the short story collections. It's probably one of the 'purest' and best novel distillations of Lafferty. After reading it, you'll know whether you like him or not.\n\nIf you do, you could move on to _The Devil is Dead_ and the others." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nASPIC SHAPE Video E-Bomb SALDV TOS Sponge argus FLiR IWO" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-12T20:27:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works and questions\n\tto\tmailers)", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370805121311g5854a1c6ifae511c94b636e8f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't like James Blish's A Case of Conscience. I felt the novel was lacking in all fronts and very overrated. Still, its a matter of personal taste.\n \nTim Powers I would recomend The Anubis Gates over On Stranger Tides. I felt the later wasn't especially good, just an average jolly ride.\n \nAs for The Sparrow, I haven't read that one but I read a lot of reviews and my interest is mixed. For example, it seems that the author got the space-travel relativistic time all wrong. Also, the aliens are at a technological level similar to, say, the stone age or such. The author never explained how that alien race sent a radio message with recorded singing into space... The idea I have is that the author tried to chew more than she could and although the premise of the novel seems very interesting the end result is far from living up to the level of hype it gathered. But my impression is based on reviews, so take this with a grain of salt. \n \nMy personal recomendations would go to:\n \n-Solaris, Stanislaw Lem\n-His Master's Voice, Stanislaw Lem\n-Roadside Picnic, Strugatsky Brothers\n-In October will be too Late, Fred Hoyle\n-The Black Cloud, Fred Hoyle\n-Star Maker, Olaf Stapledon\n-Hyperion & Fall of Hyperion, Dan Symmons (IGNORE THE ENDYMION BOOKS!!!)\n-Rendezvous with Rama, Arthur C. Clarck\n \nAnd others I don't remember right now.\n \n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370805121334x46aa1ea5u24a0e5b391213c14@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-12T20:34:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works and questions to\n\tmailers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pedro,\n\nYou clearly have more of a \"hard science\" orientation than I do in SF.\nGiven that,\nhave you tried Stephen Baxter?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 1:27 PM, Pedro Pereira\n wrote:\n\n I didn't like James Blish's A Case of Conscience. I felt the novel was\nlacking in all fronts and very overrated. Still, its a matter of personal\ntaste.\n\n Tim Powers I would recomend The Anubis Gates over On Stranger Tides. I felt\nthe later wasn't especially good, just an average jolly ride.\n\n As for The Sparrow, I haven't read that one but I read a lot of reviews and\nmy interest is mixed. For example, it seems that the author got the\nspace-travel relativistic time all wrong. Also, the aliens are at a\ntechnological level similar to, say, the stone age or such. The author never\nexplained how that alien race sent a radio message with recorded singing\ninto space... The idea I have is that the author tried to chew more than she\ncould and although the premise of the novel seems very interesting the end\nresult is far from living up to the level of hype it gathered. But my\nimpression is based on reviews, so take this with a grain of salt.\n\n My personal recomendations would go to:\n\n -Solaris, Stanislaw Lem\n -His Master's Voice, Stanislaw Lem\n -Roadside Picnic, Strugatsky Brothers\n -In October will be too Late, Fred Hoyle\n -The Black Cloud, Fred Hoyle\n -Star Maker, Olaf Stapledon\n -Hyperion & Fall of Hyperion, Dan Symmons (IGNORE THE ENDYMION BOOKS!!!)\n -Rendezvous with Rama, Arthur C. Clarck\n\n And others I don't remember right now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:11:17 -0700\nFrom: danldo at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works and questions\nto mailers)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Matthew Keeley\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Perhaps we Wolfe fans should put together a list of other worthwhile\nscience\nfiction / fantasy writers? I know a few of the people on the thread have\na\nlist already." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Equally good, but about as far from Wolfe as you can get artistically\nor philosophically,\nis Samuel R. Delany. Some of his work, incidentally, is not for\nthe easily\noffended! Good starting places include _Babel 17_, _Empire Star_, and his\nshort\nstory collection _Aye and Gomorrah_\n\nAnyone who likes Wolfe should give TIm Powers a try: his work is nowhere\nnear\nas *dense* as Wolfe's, and certainly less mysterious, but has a\ncertain similarity\nin what he uses SF/F to do. A good stand-alone starting point is the\npirate novel\n(h'mmm...) _On Stranger Tides_; his finest work to date is in the\ntrilogy consisting\nof _Last Call_, _Expiration Date_ and _Earthquake Weather_.\n\nAny list like this must include Ursula K. Le Guin, who is another\nfar-from-Wolfe\nbut awfully good. Start anywhere but her first three books.\n\nI would recommend, with slight hesitation, James Blish, and especially his\nfour-volume trilogy (and that's not a paradox) \"After Such Knowledge.\" The\nfirst book (_Doctor Mirabilis_) is a historical novel retelling the\nlife of friar\nRoger Bacon; the second, in two volumes (_Black Easter_ and _The Day\nAfter Judgment_) a contemporary fantasy/horror novel, and the third (_A\nCase of Conscience_) a SF novel. Together they are an inquiry into the\nquestion whether the quest for secular knowledge for its own sake is a\nvalid goal, or indeed permissible at all, from a Christian (sc. Catholic)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "point\nof view." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As an alternate take on some of the themes in _Case of Conscience_, one\nshould also read _The Sparrow_ by Mary Doria Russell, an astonishing\nbook in its own right and one that may appeal to Wolfe fans specifically\nfor a number of reasons.\n\nOkay, I'll shut up now and let someone else go.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<45476.1210624633@speakeasy.net>", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2008-05-12T20:37:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works and questions", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370805121334x46aa1ea5u24a0e5b391213c14@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps he's trendy, but I quite enjoyed the complexity and sense of fun in Neal\nStephenson's _The Diamond Age_ and _Snowcrash_. \n\nI'd also love to get into some book-puzzle talk with some fans of both Wolfe and\nPynchon." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-12T20:46:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works and questions\n\tto\tmailers)", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370805121334x46aa1ea5u24a0e5b391213c14@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nope. Yes, I have more of an hard sci-fi bent, but I like every kind of literature, including fantasy. Notice that some of the books I recomended are not even really sci-fi, or hard-sci-fi.\n \nI'm really picky about what I read, and Baxter for some reason doesn't really grab my interest. Most sci-fi and fantasy doesn't grab my interest, to be honest. But when its good, its IS really good. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:34:02 -0700> From: danldo at gmail.com> To: urth at lists.urth.net> Subject: Re: (urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works and questions to mailers)> > Pedro,> > You clearly have more of a \"hard science\" orientation than I do in SF.> Given that,> have you tried Stephen Baxter?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10805121413u63eb7c66m7a2c84a4f468fae8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-12T21:13:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works and questions", "in_reply_to": "<45476.1210624633@speakeasy.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 9:37 PM, Allan Anderson wrote:\nI'd also love to get into some book-puzzle talk with some fans of both\nWolfe and\nPynchon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would certainly be up for some Pynchon discussion at a future date, but so\nfar I've \"only\" read Against the Day, and I gather a proper Pynchon\ndiscussion needs to discuss The Crying of Lot 49 and Gravity's Rainbow.\n\nI did very much like Against the Day (One kind of has to, to read a book\nthat runs almost 1100 pages in hardback), but there was so much going on in\nthere that was over my head. Of course, some of that is just Pynchon's\nperversity - he's not the sort of writer where every word counts for\nsomething, and sometimes he just wants to make obscure or dirty jokes.\nStill, I found parts of the book extremely moving, and I don't think I've\nread anything funnier than this one scene involving a dog... I literally\nlaughed for five minutes straight.\n\nIt would be interesting to see what kind of overlap there is between Wolfe\nfans and Pynchon fans. Both can be difficult, but I think Wolfe is more\nconsistently entertaining, though that's hardly the only way to judge\nliterature. Still, Against the Day \"drags\" much more than The Book of the\nNew Sun, which is of similar length. And of course the politics of Wolfe and\nPynchon would be more or less diametrically opposed...\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-05-12T21:38:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works and questions to\n\tmailers)", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370805121311g5854a1c6ifae511c94b636e8f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 12, 2008, at 3:11 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nAs an alternate take on some of the themes in _Case of Conscience_, \none\nshould also read _The Sparrow_ by Mary Doria Russell, an astonishing\nbook in its own right and one that may appeal to Wolfe fans \nspecifically\nfor a number of reasons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Russ Allbery's devastating review of _CoC_(A Case of Conscience) is \nright on the mark. The first fifty pages, I think, are actually \npretty good, and then Blish takes the novel in exactly the least \ninteresting direction possible.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<979DC816-D39B-4C28-888E-383D1C8FCCB6@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-05-12T21:41:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works and questions", "in_reply_to": "<45476.1210624633@speakeasy.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 12, 2008, at 3:37 PM, Allan Anderson wrote:\nI'd also love to get into some book-puzzle talk with some fans of \nboth Wolfe and\nPynchon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi there.\n\nCan we add John Crowley too?\n\nAlso, re: Mi?ville: I felt that _Waiting For Jake_ was way too much \n\"Look at me! I've read Borges! Aren't I clever?\"\n\nI must admit to a snarky chuckle when I found that _The Wasp In A Wig_ \nis one of the best-beloved children's books in Bas-Lag, though.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E7E8B1D-F412-4A09-9E70-3F0BB3B4AD1D@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-12T21:49:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works and questions", "in_reply_to": "<979DC816-D39B-4C28-888E-383D1C8FCCB6@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Anyone who likes Wolfe should, if they can, get ahold of Sean \nWilliams' \"Books of the Change\" and \"Books of the Cataclysm.\" I know \nthe latter are published by Pyr in the States, but I've had to order \nmost of my copies from Australian sellers, although the hunt was well \nworth it. \"The Books of the Cataclysm\" are among the finest SF I have \never read.\n\nTad Williams (I've a thing for the name, it seems) also springs to \nmind as another top-flight SF novelist, as do the \"old faithfuls\" of \nLeGuin, Leiber, Moorcock, Zelazny, Moore, Howard and Vance. If you \nlike more gritty, militaristic fantasy, Glen Cook has recently \nreleased some of his \"Black Company\" novels in anthologies, which are \nwell worth it if you dig the style (think Able with slightly more self- \nawareness and humor).\n\nThe other books I have been reading lately (apart from law books) are \nNaomi Novik's \"Temeraire\" novels. They've been compared to what would \nhappen if you replaced Patrick O'Brian's ships with dragons. And \nthey're excellent. It's rare for something involving dragons to hold \nmy interest at all, but Novik really has a gift and has created \nclever, endearing, and intelligent novels with some real depth to them.\n\nAnd in the more epic fantasy vein, I've enjoyed George R.R. Martin's \n\"A Song of Ice and Fire\" novels since I first read them in the late 90s.\n\nBest,\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 12, 2008, at 4:41 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn May 12, 2008, at 3:37 PM, Allan Anderson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd also love to get into some book-puzzle talk with some fans of \nboth Wolfe and\nPynchon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hi there.\n\nCan we add John Crowley too?\n\nAlso, re: Mi?ville: I felt that _Waiting For Jake_ was way too much \n\"Look at me! I've read Borges! Aren't I clever?\"\n\nI must admit to a snarky chuckle when I found that _The Wasp In A \nWig_ is one of the best-beloved children's books in Bas-Lag, though.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2008-05-12T22:47:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works and questions to\n\tmailers)", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370805121311g5854a1c6ifae511c94b636e8f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would recommend, with slight hesitation, James Blish, and especially his\nfour-volume trilogy (and that's not a paradox) \"After Such Knowledge.\" The\nfirst book (_Doctor Mirabilis_) is a historical novel retelling the\nlife of friar\nRoger Bacon; the second, in two volumes (_Black Easter_ and _The Day\nAfter Judgment_) a contemporary fantasy/horror novel, and the third (_A\nCase of Conscience_) a SF novel. Together they are an inquiry into the\nquestion whether the quest for secular knowledge for its own sake is a\nvalid goal, or indeed permissible at all, from a Christian (sc. Catholic) point\nof view." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In earlier days here I mooted the concept of \"Catholic fantabulation\" - a \ntype of fantastic fiction that descended from the Christianised paganism of \nthe Catholic church's worldview, rather than via Wells from the secular \nprotestantism-dying-into-atheism of mainstream Western society. \n\nOther members of this group of writers (apart from Wolfe) would include the \nInklings (Lewis, Tolkien, etc), Chesterton, Lafferty, and also their \nideological opponents like Pullman and Blish (because opposition is a \ntribute: it's parodic deconstruction that kills, something that those who \npuffed THE GOLDEN COMPASS as a counterweight to the Narnia films signally \nfailed to understand). \n\nCrowley would make the cut since his best work is based on modernized takes \nof the medaeval/Catholic cosmology. \n\n\nOne other possibility is John C Wright, who has just noisily become a \nCatholic after ages dithering around. His novels like THE GOLDEN AGE are \nbased on classical paganism and therefore fit in the stream of CF. \n\n((His upcoming NULL-A CONTINUUM is not Catholic fantabulation but it is the \none thing that is set to break up my current tack of sciffy reading (all \nWarhammer 40K gaming fiction while I wait for the next Wolfe, he said \nshamelessly)). \n\n - hartshorn \n\n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10805121616p307fde7ekcb24d1fc91308859@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-12T23:16:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works and questions to\n\tmailers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:47 PM, Andy Robertson \nwrote:\n\nIn earlier days here I mooted the concept of \"Catholic fantabulation\" - a\ntype of fantastic fiction that descended from the Christianised paganism of\nthe Catholic church's worldview, rather than via Wells from the secular\nprotestantism-dying-into-atheism of mainstream Western society.\nOther members of this group of writers (apart from Wolfe) would include\nthe Inklings (Lewis, Tolkien, etc), Chesterton, Lafferty, and also their\nideological opponents like Pullman and Blish (because opposition is a\ntribute: it's parodic deconstruction that kills, something that those who\npuffed THE GOLDEN COMPASS as a counterweight to the Narnia films signally\nfailed to understand).\nCrowley would make the cut since his best work is based on modernized\ntakes of the medaeval/Catholic cosmology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Catholic fantabulation,\" huh? I was actual thinking of doing something\nsimilar (which I'd planned to call the \"Catholic fantastic\") for a senior\nthesis. I don't think that's going to be my topic, but it's still something\nI'm interested in, and I didn't know about Wright before, so I'll have to\nlook him up.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1509.67.142.130.42.1210634919.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-05-12T23:28:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works and questions to\n mailers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I would recommend, with slight hesitation, James Blish, and especially\nhis\nfour-volume trilogy (and that's not a paradox) \"After Such Knowledge.\"\nThe\nfirst book (_Doctor Mirabilis_) is a historical novel retelling the\nlife of friar\nRoger Bacon; the second, in two volumes (_Black Easter_ and _The Day\nAfter Judgment_) a contemporary fantasy/horror novel, and the third (_A\nCase of Conscience_) a SF novel. Together they are an inquiry into the\nquestion whether the quest for secular knowledge for its own sake is a\nvalid goal, or indeed permissible at all, from a Christian (sc.\nCatholic) point\nof view." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In earlier days here I mooted the concept of \"Catholic fantabulation\" - a\ntype of fantastic fiction that descended from the Christianised paganism\nof the Catholic church's worldview, rather than via Wells from the secular\nprotestantism-dying-into-atheism of mainstream Western society." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Splain to me how Catholicism isn't Western, or isn't mainstream Kemo Sabe.\nLast I checked there were more Catholics than Protestants, in the West as\nwell as in the United States of America. It's this late 20th century\nquasi-Calvinist, quasi-Marxist atheistic protestantism that is the\naberration.\n\nHere's a joke:\n\nQ: How are the Dominicans and the Jesuits the same?\n\nA: They were both founded by Spaniards who were both soldiers before they\ngot religion, they are both organized along military lines, and they were\nboth formed to combat heresy: the Domininicans to fight the Albigensians\nand the Jesuits to fight the Protestants.\n\nQ: How are they different?\n\nA: When is the last time you met an Albigensian?\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Oliver Wakefield", "address": "radontrooper at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-13T00:15:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works andquestions", "in_reply_to": "<1509.67.142.130.42.1210634919.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I did not like Iron Council and it has left me with a prejudice against>Mieville." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWhat is it you didn't like about Iron Council? Personally I thought it was the weaker of the works and I felt that Mieville's socialist message a bit labourious. I think Mievelle has talent but he needs to refine his work. Too much jibber jabber really.\n \nWow, alot of authors ive never heard of here. Need to get cracking. On the steampunk note I was quite excited to read \"the difference engine\" but found it flagged seriously at the conclusion. Anyone know of any decent steampunk books.\n \nMy top picks of recent novels would be\n \nI am Legend - Matheson\nForever War - Haldeman\nStarship Troopers - Heinlein\nThe Wastelands - got a short story by Wolfe in there\n \n_________________________________________________________________\nWin Indiana Jones prizes with Live Search\nhttp://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/msnnkmgl0010000002ukm/direct/01/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Crossley", "address": "ishmael at drizzle.com" }, "date": "2008-05-13T00:33:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works andquestions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/12/08 5:15 PM, \"Oliver Wakefield\" wrote:\nAnyone know of any decent steampunk books?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There’s a new anthology called Steampunk that just came out from Tachyon,\nfeaturing stories by Michael Chabon / Neal Stephenson / James P. Blaylock /\nJoe R. Lansdale / Mary Gentle / Ted Chiang / Michael Moorcock / Jay Lake /\nMolly Brown / Stepan Chapman / Ian R. MacLeod / Rachel Pollack / Paul Di\nFilippo / Rick Klaw / Jess Nevins / Bill Baker. Might be a good place to\nstart." } ] }, { "message_id": "<35126.198.37.34.2.1210639018.squirrel@www.doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2008-05-13T00:36:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works andquestions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyone know of any decent\nsteampunk books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Blaylock's THE DIGGING LEVIATHAN is outstanding, but it's steampunk\nin a very different way from most such.\n\nHis more straightforwardly steampunk LORD KELVIN'S MACHINE is pretty weak,\nI think." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6758.67.142.130.42.1210639183.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-05-13T00:39:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works andquestions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I did not like Iron Council and it has left me with a prejudice\nagainst>Mieville." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is it you didn't like about Iron Council? Personally I thought it was\nthe weaker of the works and I felt that Mieville's socialist message a bit\nlabourious." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps a bit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I think Mievelle has talent but he needs to refine his work.\nToo much jibber jabber really." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that communism has made his brain rot.\n\nNow, Moorcock and Delany are also socialists. But I think that they are\nboth excellent writers.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-13T01:13:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works andquestions", "in_reply_to": "<6758.67.142.130.42.1210639183.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't think Moorcock was a socialist/communist. In fact, I've \nalways read his stuff as being much more anarchistic (although it does \nhave a decidedly leftist bent) than socialistic. His heroes (with the \nnotable exception of Hawkmoon) are usually the \"just leave me alone I \nam so tired of everyone expecting me to save the Multiverse just \nbecause I'm the Champion\" type. Some of them (Erekose) even try to run \naway from their duty.\n\nIf Moorcock were a socialist, Elric would have gone to Elwher, lead \nthe people in a proletarian revolution, and then entered an arms race \nwith Melnibone. \"We've got to make more soul-sucking swords before \nthey do. Mutually assured soul-sucking!\"\n\nThere's a \"Dr. Strangelove\" joke buried in here somewhere but I can't \nget to it.\n\nBest,\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 12, 2008, at 7:39 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I did not like Iron Council and it has left me with a prejudice\nagainst>Mieville." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What is it you didn't like about Iron Council? Personally I thought \nit was\nthe weaker of the works and I felt that Mieville's socialist \nmessage a bit\nlabourious." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps a bit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I think Mievelle has talent but he needs to refine his \nwork.\nToo much jibber jabber really." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that communism has made his brain rot.\n\nNow, Moorcock and Delany are also socialists. But I think that they \nare\nboth excellent writers.\n\n\n.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-05-13T01:37:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works andquestions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 13 May 2008, Oliver Wakefield wrote:\nWow, alot of authors ive never heard of here. Need to get cracking. On \nthe steampunk note I was quite excited to read \"the difference engine\" \nbut found it flagged seriously at the conclusion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know why you are saying that, in that it seems sketchy after the \ndensity of the earlier episodes, but on rereading it I found it \nbeautifully understated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyone know of any decent steampunk books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not really decent but ambitious and OK Paul De Filippo _Steampunk Trilogy_\n\nKind of tangentially steampunk with strong writing -- Ian McLeod _The \nLight Ages_, Keith Roberts _Pavane_, John Crowley _Great Work of Time_, \nMichael Moorcock's Oswald Bastable series.\n\nThe League of Extraordinary Gentlemen\n\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<87skwmn64p.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>", "from": { "name": "Russ Allbery", "address": "rra at stanford.edu" }, "date": "2008-05-13T05:08:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers?", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370805121311g5854a1c6ifae511c94b636e8f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Equally good, but about as far from Wolfe as you can get artistically or\nphilosophically, is Samuel R. Delany. Some of his work, incidentally, is\nnot for the easily offended! Good starting places include _Babel\n17_, _Empire Star_, and his short story collection _Aye and Gomorrah_" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another interesting direction to approach Delany is from the non-fiction\nside. His _About Writing_ was excellent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would recommend, with slight hesitation, James Blish, and especially\nhis four-volume trilogy (and that's not a paradox) \"After Such\nKnowledge.\" The first book (_Doctor Mirabilis_) is a historical novel\nretelling the life of friar Roger Bacon; the second, in two volumes\n(_Black Easter_ and _The Day After Judgment_) a contemporary\nfantasy/horror novel, and the third (_A Case of Conscience_) a SF\nnovel. Together they are an inquiry into the question whether the quest\nfor secular knowledge for its own sake is a valid goal, or indeed\npermissible at all, from a Christian (sc. Catholic) point of view." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I consider _A Case of Conscience_ to be one of the worst, perhaps the\nworst, SF novel I have ever read both in terms of quality of writing and\nquality of plot, so opinions definitely differ on the score -- to be fair,\nI've not read any of the rest of Blish, nor read Blish in the time and\nplace when he was originally writing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As an alternate take on some of the themes in _Case of Conscience_, one\nshould also read _The Sparrow_ by Mary Doria Russell, an astonishing\nbook in its own right and one that may appeal to Wolfe fans specifically\nfor a number of reasons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This recommendation, on the other hand, I will definitely second.\n\nTo offer a recommendation of my own, Geoff Ryman has written some truly\nspectacular novels, particularly _Air_ and his non-SF historical novel\n_The King's Last Song_." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Russ Allbery (rra at stanford.edu) " } ] }, { "message_id": "<87od7an5zd.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>", "from": { "name": "Russ Allbery", "address": "rra at stanford.edu" }, "date": "2008-05-13T05:11:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pedro Pereira writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nope. Yes, I have more of an hard sci-fi bent, but I like every kind of\nliterature, including fantasy. Notice that some of the books I\nrecomended are not even really sci-fi, or hard-sci-fi.\n \nI'm really picky about what I read, and Baxter for some reason doesn't\nreally grab my interest. Most sci-fi and fantasy doesn't grab my\ninterest, to be honest. But when its good, its IS really good." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not much of a fan of Baxter either, although so far I've only read him\nat short story length. What I've read has wooden characters and\nsacrifices story to historical sweep, which bugs me.\n\nThe best hard SF writer currently publishing right now is, IMO, Karl\nSchroeder, who deserves to be better-known than he is. _Lady of Mazes_\ndeserved a Hugo; it was head and shoulders against everything else that\nyear that was actually nominated. His current series, Virga, is more\nadventure and less thoughtful, but is still becoming quite good as it\ndevelops." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Russ Allbery (rra at stanford.edu) " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-05-13T06:25:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers?", "in_reply_to": "<87skwmn64p.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 12 May 2008, Russ Allbery wrote:\n\"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I would recommend, with slight hesitation, James Blish, and especially\nhis four-volume trilogy (and that's not a paradox) \"After Such\nKnowledge.\" The first book (_Doctor Mirabilis_) is a historical novel" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I consider _A Case of Conscience_ to be one of the worst, perhaps the\nworst, SF novel I have ever read both in terms of quality of writing and\nquality of plot, so opinions definitely differ on the score -- to be fair,\nI've not read any of the rest of Blish, nor read Blish in the time and\nplace when he was originally writing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As an alternate take on some of the themes in _Case of Conscience_, one\nshould also read _The Sparrow_ by Mary Doria Russell, an astonishing\nbook in its own right and one that may appeal to Wolfe fans specifically\nfor a number of reasons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This recommendation, on the other hand, I will definitely second." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well as usual, YMMV. I would reverse these recommendations -- if _CoC_ is \nless than satisfactory in terms of being a _setup_, _The Sparrow_ made me \ngrit my teeth for the same reason doubled (there is a r.a.sf thread on it \njust at the moment, where it certainly evokes some venomous responses). \nAnd _CoC_ allows Blish to show off another of his interests (Finnegan's \nWake) ;). Best intro to Blish: _Jack of Eagles_.\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Oliver Wakefield", "address": "radontrooper at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-13T10:56:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pedro Pereira writes:> Nope. Yes, I have more of an hard sci-fi bent, but I like every kind of> literature, including fantasy. Notice that some of the books I> recomended are not even really sci-fi, or hard-sci-fi.\n \nPersonally in the past I used to head toward fantasy. But in the end I couldn't stand the whole Orcs and Elves and Dwarves dross. Tolkein was fine hes an original. But alot of the authors that line store bookshelves are just copying his world to some degree. Fantasys about imagination and theres no real imagination in alot out there, but I suppose the whole Tolkein copying thing sells.\nThats why I moved to sci-fi really. I can't say ive read that much yet. Dune is what i'm going to read next. Does anyone reccomend it?\n_________________________________________________________________\nBe a Hero and Win with Iron Man\nhttp://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/msnnkmgl0010000009ukm/direct/01/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-13T12:17:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I do recomend Dune. Very good indeed. The folowing 5 books in the series are just so-so, not as good as the first one. But still they are clearly Frank \"Herbertish\" and you could do much worse than reading them. But Dune itself is really good. \n\n\nFrom: radontrooper at hotmail.comTo: urth at urth.netDate: Tue, 13 May 2008 11:56:47 +0100Subject: Re: (urth) Other SF writers?\n\n\nPedro Pereira writes:> Nope. Yes, I have more of an hard sci-fi bent, but I like every kind of> literature, including fantasy. Notice that some of the books I> recomended are not even really sci-fi, or hard-sci-fi. Personally in the past I used to head toward fantasy. But in the end I couldn't stand the whole Orcs and Elves and Dwarves dross. Tolkein was fine hes an original. But alot of the authors that line store bookshelves are just copying his world to some degree. Fantasys about imagination and theres no real imagination in alot out there, but I suppose the whole Tolkein copying thing sells.Thats why I moved to sci-fi really. I can't say ive read that much yet. Dune is what i'm going to read next. Does anyone reccomend it?\n\nGet fish-slapping on Messenger! Play Now " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-13T12:19:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works andquestions", "in_reply_to": "<6758.67.142.130.42.1210639183.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You make it sound like socialism is an horrible disease.\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<11608.72.171.0.148.1210686886.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-05-13T13:54:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works andquestions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It has slain in its millions and in its tens of millions.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You make it sound like socialism is an horrible disease." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 20:39:43 -0400> From: brunians at brunians.org> To:\nurth at lists.urth.net> Subject: Re: (urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How\nlist works andquestions> > > >> I did not like Iron Council and it has\nleft me with a prejudice> >> against>Mieville.> > > What is it you\ndidn't like about Iron Council? Personally I thought it was> > the\nweaker of the works and I felt that Mieville's socialist message a bit>\nlabourious.> > Perhaps a bit.> > > I think Mievelle has talent but he\nneeds to refine his work.> > Too much jibber jabber really.> > I think\nthat communism has made his brain rot.> > Now, Moorcock and Delany are\nalso socialists. But I think that they are> both excellent writers.> > >\n.> > > > _______________________________________________> Urth Mailing" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-05-13T14:14:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works andquestions", "in_reply_to": "<11608.72.171.0.148.1210686886.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 13, 2008, at 8:54 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nIt has slain in its millions and in its tens of millions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You make it sound like socialism is an horrible disease." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oooh! Oooh! Are we going to be putting Catholicism on trial here next?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3066.72.171.0.148.1210690659.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-05-13T14:57:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works andquestions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Compared with socialism?\n\nBeing neither a socialist nor a Catholic, I don't mind at all.\n\nI tell you though, the Catholics will get off much easier.\n\nYou notice, Nazis are figures of fun these days. Springtime for Hitler and\nall that. But not communists. Why should that be? Nazism is completely\ndiscredited, the countries that still have national socialist governments,\nare there any left? Maybe Syria, if we are counting Ba'ath Arab Socialism\nas a branch of national socialism, as it is. But you notice that they\ndon't advertise the connection.\n\nThe largest country in the World is still run by communists, even if they\nhave been acting a might peculiar lately. A friend of mine is there now.\nWe heard from her an hour ago: she had just heard that there was a big\nearthquake. How? A friend in the States emailed her to ask if she was\nalright.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 13, 2008, at 8:54 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It has slain in its millions and in its tens of millions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You make it sound like socialism is an horrible disease." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oooh! Oooh! Are we going to be putting Catholicism on trial here next?\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-13T15:00:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works andquestions", "in_reply_to": "<11608.72.171.0.148.1210686886.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like the Church, you mean?\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<3406.72.171.0.148.1210691444.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-05-13T15:10:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works andquestions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, Christian organizations have also committed vast crimes. I have no\nproblem admitting that. I'm a Jew, you silly person.\n\nI do think however, and have no problem arguing the proposition that if\nyou compare the two the Christians come off a lot better. I am sure that\nwe would have no problem finding advocates of both positions on the list,\npolitics is a recurring theme in Gene Wolfe's work and in SF generally, we\nare all presumably civilized adults here, I don't see any reason why\nideological and political discussion has no place on this list.\n\nQuite the contrary, actually.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Like the Church, you mean?\n\nBetter mot to turn this into an ideology war, it has no place in this\nlist.> Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 09:54:46 -0400> From: brunians at brunians.org>\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net> Subject: Re: (urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How\nlist works andquestions> > It has slain in its millions and in its tens of\nmillions.> > > .> > > You make it sound like socialism is an horrible\ndisease.> >> >> Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 20:39:43 -0400> From:\nbrunians at brunians.org> To:> >> urth at lists.urth.net> Subject: Re: (urth)\nOther SF writers? (Was: How> >> list works andquestions> > > >> I did not\nlike Iron Council and it has> >> left me with a prejudice> >>\nagainst>Mieville.> > > What is it you> >> didn't like about Iron Council?\nPersonally I thought it was> > the> >> weaker of the works and I felt that\nMieville's socialist message a bit>> >> > labourious.> > Perhaps a bit.> >\nI think Mievelle has talent but he> >> needs to refine his work.> > Too\nmuch jibber jabber really.> > I think> >> that communism has made his\nbrain rot.> > Now, Moorcock and Delany are> >> also socialists. But I\nthink that they are> both excellent writers.> > >> >> .> > > >\n_______________________________________________> Urth Mailing> >> List> To" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-13T15:16:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works andquestions", "in_reply_to": "<3406.72.171.0.148.1210691444.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If if you have no problem admitting that, why the vitriolic take on socialism? I like how you are carefull in naming the culprits \"Christian organizations\" and leaving the christian religion and ideology out to carefully point out the distinction. You should do the same regarding Socialism. One thing is ideology/philoshopy, another thing is what \"organizations\" (like governments) do in their name. You should know that. More crimes have been commited in the name of democracy than the crimes of Socialism, Communism and Church put together. Should we abandon Democracy?\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<9c6b022b0805130823u77b368b2u7e39d7c9f341c94a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Ranjit Bhatnagar", "address": "ranjit at moonmilk.com" }, "date": "2008-05-13T15:23:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works andquestions", "in_reply_to": "<3406.72.171.0.148.1210691444.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 11:10 AM, wrote:\nI don't see any reason why\n ideological and political discussion has no place on this list.\n\n Quite the contrary, actually." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This discussion is off topic because I, as owner of the list, say so.\nThat's authoritarianism for you! Please move on to other topics." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "JBarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2008-05-13T16:22:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers?", "in_reply_to": "<9c6b022b0805130823u77b368b2u7e39d7c9f341c94a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 5/13/2008 5:18:12 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, \ndomus_artemis at hotmail.com writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, I do recomend Dune. Very good indeed. The folowing\n5 books in the series are just so-so, not as good as the\nfirst one. But still they are clearly Frank \"Herbertish\"\nand you could do much worse than reading them. But\nDune itself is really good. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI have to admit that I haven't read Dune myself. But a friend of mine did \nrecently. Here's her take: \n \n_http://bloggin-dazs.blogspot.com/2008/03/well-ill-be-duned.html_ \n(http://bloggin-dazs.blogspot.com/2008/03/well-ill-be-duned.html) \n \n_http://bloggin-dazs.blogspot.com/2008/04/done-with-dune.html_ \n(http://bloggin-dazs.blogspot.com/2008/04/done-with-dune.html) \n \nEnjoy!\n \nJohn\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family \nfavorites at AOL Food. \n(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-13T16:35:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ahah, funny! Maybe I should read them again after all these years?...LOL\n\n\nFrom: JBarach at aol.comDate: Tue, 13 May 2008 12:22:19 -0400To: urth at lists.urth.netSubject: Re: (urth) Other SF writers?\n\n\nIn a message dated 5/13/2008 5:18:12 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, domus_artemis at hotmail.com writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, I do recomend Dune. Very good indeed. The folowing\n5 books in the series are just so-so, not as good as the\nfirst one. But still they are clearly Frank \"Herbertish\"\nand you could do much worse than reading them. But\nDune itself is really good. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI have to admit that I haven't read Dune myself. But a friend of mine did recently. Here's her take: \n \nhttp://bloggin-dazs.blogspot.com/2008/03/well-ill-be-duned.html\n \nhttp://bloggin-dazs.blogspot.com/2008/04/done-with-dune.html\n \nEnjoy!\n \nJohn\n\n\n \n\n\nWondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food." } ] }, { "message_id": "<14175.72.171.0.143.1210715877.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-05-13T21:57:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works andquestions", "in_reply_to": "<9c6b022b0805130823u77b368b2u7e39d7c9f341c94a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now this I have no problem with.\n\nIf anyone wants to discuss this matter with me, my email address is widely\nknown.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 11:10 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see any reason why\n ideological and political discussion has no place on this list.\n\n Quite the contrary, actually." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This discussion is off topic because I, as owner of the list, say so.\nThat's authoritarianism for you! Please move on to other topics.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9f1507fc0805141511x3b3e0d74ha1c4ef036af2f3e6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Kerry Benton", "address": "k.benton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-14T22:11:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heartily!\n\nDune's one of my very favorite books. As noted, the subsequent books\nfall off in quality. I rank Children and Messiah as \"decent\", and God\nEmperor, Heretics and Chapterhouse as varying levels of \"readable\",\nall more or less on a geometrically declining quality scale. This is\nof course is not including the latter day sins of Chris Herbert...\nthose books are dross on a whole other scale (exponential!) ranging\nfrom awful to totally unreadable. And I was so excited when I first\nheard of the first one. Bleh.\n\nAnyway, Dune's got that very complete feeling in the universe Herbert\nconstructs. I love the small glimpses of the extended society. It's\ndepth that's not plumbed as much as alluded to, but I find it rounds\neverything out, and creates a more perfect experience, in much the\nsame way that the best meals have some not quite graspable character\nof *completeness*, above the mere agglomeration of materials and\napplication of varying levels of heat.\n\nThis is true of all my favorite works, though I guess I have a\nfondness for epics precisely because inhabiting well constructed,\ngenuine-feeling worlds is so satisfying. This is Tolkein's draw as\nwell.\n\n-k" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 6:56 AM, Oliver Wakefield\n wrote:\nThats why I moved to sci-fi really. I can't say ive read that much yet. Dune\nis what i'm going to read next. Does anyone reccomend it?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-05-14T22:36:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers?", "in_reply_to": "<9f1507fc0805141511x3b3e0d74ha1c4ef036af2f3e6@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 14, 2008, at 5:11 PM, Kerry Benton wrote:\n This is\nof course is not including the latter day sins of Chris Herbert...\nthose books are dross on a whole other scale (exponential!) ranging\nfrom awful to totally unreadable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Brian, you mean?\n\nOnce the Penny Arcade archive is back online....\n\nhttp://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/10/15\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9f1507fc0805141550g7fa50fb9sa208db7f40984e7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Kerry Benton", "address": "k.benton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-14T22:50:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, dammit, yes, sorry, I meant Brian.\n\nI guess I was only half way towards putting him out of my mind...\n\nThank you for the correction!\n\n-k" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 6:36 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn May 14, 2008, at 5:11 PM, Kerry Benton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " This is\nof course is not including the latter day sins of Chris Herbert...\nthose books are dross on a whole other scale (exponential!) ranging\nfrom awful to totally unreadable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Brian, you mean?\n\nOnce the Penny Arcade archive is back online....\n\nhttp://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/10/15\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-23T17:01:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers?", "in_reply_to": "<87od7an5zd.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:11 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:\n The best hard SF writer currently publishing right now is, IMO, Karl\n Schroeder, who deserves to be better-known than he is. _Lady of Mazes_\n deserved a Hugo; it was head and shoulders against everything else that\n year that was actually nominated. His current series, Virga, is more\n adventure and less thoughtful, but is still becoming quite good as it\n develops." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm in the middle of _Lady of Mazes_ right now and am very impressed\nso far. He reminds me of my choice for best hard SF writer: Ken\nMacLeod. I think his first two books, _Star Fraction_ and _Stone\nCanal_are my favorites, and _Newton's Wake_ (which is probably the\nclosest in feel to _Lady of Mazes_), but everything he's written is\nvery good.\n\nRostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-05-23T17:26:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 23, 2008, at 12:01 PM, Michael Straight wrote:\nOn Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:11 PM, Russ Allbery \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The best hard SF writer currently publishing right now is, IMO, Karl\nSchroeder, who deserves to be better-known than he is. _Lady of \nMazes_\ndeserved a Hugo; it was head and shoulders against everything else \nthat\nyear that was actually nominated. His current series, Virga, is more\nadventure and less thoughtful, but is still becoming quite good as it\ndevelops." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm in the middle of _Lady of Mazes_ right now and am very impressed\nso far. He reminds me of my choice for best hard SF writer: Ken\nMacLeod. I think his first two books, _Star Fraction_ and _Stone\nCanal_are my favorites, and _Newton's Wake_ (which is probably the\nclosest in feel to _Lady of Mazes_), but everything he's written is\nvery good." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The first Virga book didn't do much for me. _Lady of Mazes_ was much \nbetter.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10254.1211564896@speakeasy.net>", "from": { "name": "oblate777 at speakeasy.net", "address": "oblate777 at speakeasy.net" }, "date": "2008-05-23T17:48:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Fri May 23 13:26 , Adam Thornton sent:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The best hard SF writer currently publishing right now is, IMO, Karl\nSchroeder, who deserves to be better-known than he is. _Lady of \nMazes_ deserved a Hugo; it was head and shoulders against everything else \nthat year that was actually nominated. His current series, Virga, is more\nadventure and less thoughtful, but is still becoming quite good as it\ndevelops." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm in the middle of _Lady of Mazes_ right now and am very impressed\nso far. He reminds me of my choice for best hard SF writer: Ken\nMacLeod. I think his first two books, _Star Fraction_ and _Stone\nCanal_are my favorites, and _Newton's Wake_ (which is probably the\nclosest in feel to _Lady of Mazes_), but everything he's written is\nvery good." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The first Virga book didn't do much for me. _Lady of Mazes_ was much \nbetter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been reading the Virga books and I must agree. However, my favorite \nSchroeder is still _Permanence_. Not only a great book in toto, but it \nalso includes a chilling re-imagination of intellectual property in the\nnano era.\n\nrob t. (probably not related to adam but who knows?)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<87y75z7esc.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>", "from": { "name": "Russ Allbery", "address": "rra at stanford.edu" }, "date": "2008-05-24T18:11:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam Thornton writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The first Virga book didn't do much for me. _Lady of Mazes_ was much\nbetter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The second Virga book is much better than the first, but it's still not up\nto _Lady of Mazes_." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Russ Allbery (rra at stanford.edu) " } ] }, { "message_id": "<331617.65262.qm@web63911.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-06-16T18:47:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works and questions to\n\tmailers)", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370805121311g5854a1c6ifae511c94b636e8f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Delany: In addition to Empire Star and Babel-17, I'd recommend the short work The Star Pit and the novel Nova.\n \nEspecially Nova, as it involves the Tarot and stuff and that ties in nicely with...\n \nTim Powers: I got hooked on him with The Annubis Gates. Also good are The Drawing of the Dark, On Stranger Tides, The Stress of Her Regard, Declare, the \"Earthquake Weather trilogy\" (with Last Call as my all-time favorite part of that trilogy...\n \nPowers is a ton of fun. Some people have said that Neil Gaiman is \"developing an American mythology\". Powers was way ahead of him (I like Gaiman, but like Powers a lot more).\n \n(Yes, I am still a couple hundred messages behind...)\n\n\nF.P. Kiesche III\n\"When you send a man out with a gun, you create a policymaker. When his ass is on the line, he will do whatever he needs to do...And if the implications of that bothers you, the time to do something about it is before you decide to send him out.\" (David Drake, Caught in the Crossfire)\nBlogging at TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Mon, 5/12/08, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com> wrote:\n\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>\nSubject: Re: (urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works and questions to mailers)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" <urth at lists.urth.net>\nDate: Monday, May 12, 2008, 4:11 PM\n\nOn Mon, May 12, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Matthew Keeley\n<matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com> wrote:\n\n> Perhaps we Wolfe fans should put together a list of other worthwhile\nscience\n> fiction / fantasy writers? I know a few of the people on the thread have a\n> list already.\n\nEqually good, but about as far from Wolfe as you can get artistically\nor philosophically,\nis Samuel R. Delany. Some of his work, incidentally, is <i>not</i>\nfor\nthe easily\noffended! Good starting places include _Babel 17_, _Empire Star_, and his short\nstory collection _Aye and Gomorrah_\n\nAnyone who likes Wolfe should give TIm Powers a try: his work is nowhere near\nas *dense* as Wolfe's, and certainly less mysterious, but has a\ncertain similarity\nin what he uses SF/F to do. A good stand-alone starting point is the\npirate novel\n(h'mmm...) _On Stranger Tides_; his finest work to date is in the\ntrilogy consisting\nof _Last Call_, _Expiration Date_ and _Earthquake Weather_.\n\nAny list like this must include Ursula K. Le Guin, who is another\nfar-from-Wolfe\nbut awfully good. Start anywhere but her first three books.\n\nI would recommend, with slight hesitation, James Blish, and especially his\nfour-volume trilogy (and that's not a paradox) \"After Such\nKnowledge.\" The\nfirst book (_Doctor Mirabilis_) is a historical novel retelling the\nlife of friar\nRoger Bacon; the second, in two volumes (_Black Easter_ and _The Day\nAfter Judgment_) a contemporary fantasy/horror novel, and the third (_A\nCase of Conscience_) a SF novel. Together they are an inquiry into the\nquestion whether the quest for secular knowledge for its own sake is a\nvalid goal, or indeed permissible at all, from a Christian (sc. Catholic) point\nof view.\n\nAs an alternate take on some of the themes in _Case of Conscience_, one\nshould also read _The Sparrow_ by Mary Doria Russell, an astonishing\nbook in its own right and one that may appeal to Wolfe fans specifically\nfor a number of reasons.\n\nOkay, I'll shut up now and let someone else go." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370806161308o1beda17bqe38f1407fac6f78b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-16T20:08:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Other SF writers? (Was: How list works and questions to\n\tmailers)", "in_reply_to": "<331617.65262.qm@web63911.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fred," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Delany: In addition to Empire Star and Babel-17, I'd recommend the short\nwork The Star Pit and the novel Nova." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As would I (though \"Star Pit\" is included in the short story collection)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Powers is a ton of fun. Some people have said that Neil Gaiman is\n\"developing an American mythology\". Powers was way ahead of him (I like\nGaiman, but like Powers a lot more)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think what Powers is doing is very different from what Gaiman is doing.\nPowers is more truly *American* in his concerns -- not surprisingly, given\nthat NG is a Brit. Gaiman is giving a valuable outsider look at America as\nmyth; Powers is dealing with American myths, rather than the myth of\nAmerica." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] } ] }